Rocksolid Light

Welcome to novaBBS (click a section below)

mail  files  register  newsreader  groups  login

Message-ID:  

Invest in physics -- own a piece of Dirac!


arts / rec.arts.sf.written / Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasy

SubjectAuthor
* Movie review: Zathura and science fantasyDavid Brown
+* Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasyQuadibloc
|`* Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasyQuadibloc
| `* Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasyDavid Johnston
|  `* Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasyQuadibloc
|   `- Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasyDavid Brown
+* Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasyRobert Carnegie
|`* Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasyRobert Carnegie
| +* Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasyQuadibloc
| |`* Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasyQuadibloc
| | `- Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasyQuadibloc
| `* Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasyKlaus Meinhard
|  `* Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasyRobert Woodward
|   +- Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasyJames Nicoll
|   `* Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasyQuadibloc
|    `* Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasyRobert Woodward
|     `- Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasyJack Bohn
`* Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasyJack Bohn
 `* Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasyJack Bohn
  `* Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasyPaul S Person
   `* Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasyDavid Brown
    +- Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasyJack Bohn
    `* Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasyPaul S Person
     `- Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasyDavid Brown

1
Movie review: Zathura and science fantasy

<d7cd20c9-79b6-4bce-a15c-814be18f05dan@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=85889&group=rec.arts.sf.written#85889

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
X-Received: by 2002:ad4:57a8:0:b0:56e:9f09:ee58 with SMTP id g8-20020ad457a8000000b0056e9f09ee58mr904881qvx.8.1677881773079;
Fri, 03 Mar 2023 14:16:13 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:2343:b0:384:11ed:a879 with SMTP id
ef3-20020a056808234300b0038411eda879mr1034490oib.10.1677881772711; Fri, 03
Mar 2023 14:16:12 -0800 (PST)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.blueworldhosting.com!feed1.usenet.blueworldhosting.com!peer02.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2023 14:16:12 -0800 (PST)
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=63.229.64.121; posting-account=6ksdAwoAAABwqd4klmYEjqNH_AIeZIZe
NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.229.64.121
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <d7cd20c9-79b6-4bce-a15c-814be18f05dan@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasy
From: davidnbr...@gmail.com (David Brown)
Injection-Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2023 22:16:13 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Received-Bytes: 1838
 by: David Brown - Fri, 3 Mar 2023 22:16 UTC

Here's something a little more directly related than usual, I reviewed Zathura, which is based on a book. I covered it because it features a robot, albeit in a relatively minor role. Something peripheral I didn't cover, are there acceptable limits on "science fantasy"? I could see a spectrum starting at SF that accepts "real world" physics but adds magical/ psychic/ extra-physical elements, close to Star Wars. The furthest extreme would be where the world and assumed physics are completely invented, which in some lights would be the same as fantasy. The real bottom line would be, has anyone found a story that took this too far to be enjoyable?

https://trendytroodon.blogspot.com/2023/03/robot-revolution-one-where-kristin.html

David N. Brown
Mesa, Arizona

Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasy

<6129f856-5034-43e6-b4d5-2ac250e37138n@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=85911&group=rec.arts.sf.written#85911

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:74f:b0:742:7e2b:68d2 with SMTP id i15-20020a05620a074f00b007427e2b68d2mr1693299qki.7.1678003303888;
Sun, 05 Mar 2023 00:01:43 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:3347:b0:690:ee75:741b with SMTP id
l7-20020a056830334700b00690ee75741bmr2186972ott.6.1678003303625; Sun, 05 Mar
2023 00:01:43 -0800 (PST)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader01.eternal-september.org!feeder1.feed.usenet.farm!feed.usenet.farm!peer03.ams4!peer.am4.highwinds-media.com!peer01.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2023 00:01:43 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <d7cd20c9-79b6-4bce-a15c-814be18f05dan@googlegroups.com>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=162.157.97.93; posting-account=1nOeKQkAAABD2jxp4Pzmx9Hx5g9miO8y
NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.157.97.93
References: <d7cd20c9-79b6-4bce-a15c-814be18f05dan@googlegroups.com>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <6129f856-5034-43e6-b4d5-2ac250e37138n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasy
From: jsav...@ecn.ab.ca (Quadibloc)
Injection-Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2023 08:01:43 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Received-Bytes: 3282
 by: Quadibloc - Sun, 5 Mar 2023 08:01 UTC

On Friday, March 3, 2023 at 3:16:15 PM UTC-7, David Brown wrote:
> I could see a spectrum starting at SF that accepts "real world" physics but adds
> magical/ psychic/ extra-physical elements, close to Star Wars. The furthest
> extreme would be where the world and assumed physics are completely invented,
> which in some lights would be the same as fantasy. The real bottom line would be,
> has anyone found a story that took this too far to be enjoyable?

I think that your question has to be rephrased to make it the question you intended
to ask.

After all, many people found The Lord of the Rings enjoyable. But it includes no
science-fiction elements whatsoever. Well, at least until the movie version, in which
the Orcs were apparently now a product of advanced biotechnology.

So my first thought would be that it should be rephrased as "took this too far to be
categorized as science fiction". But that's a big jump from your original question;
I know at least one person who likes science fiction, and who enjoyed Star Wars,
but who said that Star Wars was _not_ science fiction. And I think I encountered another
person in that category in this newsgroup too.

I would class Star Wars as science fiction. It has ray guns. It has FTL space ships.
It has advanced artificial intelligence - in the classic form of robots. It has electronic
magnifying binoculars. It has antigravity ground vehicles.

But it also has a fantasy element, The Force. And that is so central to the plot that I
can see an argument for the other point of view.

But if it's subjective where the boundaries of science fiction lie, it's even _more_
subjective whether one enjoys fantasy - or any other genre, such as detective
stories, romance novels - in addition to science fiction. So if I can't enjoy a story
because it's more like fantasy than science fiction, that may say more about me
than it does about the book.

John Savard

Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasy

<9ee8cd76-e16a-4c1d-9705-2e64e9178880n@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=85913&group=rec.arts.sf.written#85913

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
X-Received: by 2002:a37:a84b:0:b0:742:93f5:3e4a with SMTP id r72-20020a37a84b000000b0074293f53e4amr2034663qke.1.1678011241517;
Sun, 05 Mar 2023 02:14:01 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:195:b0:384:6d14:c707 with SMTP id
w21-20020a056808019500b003846d14c707mr2087931oic.5.1678011241247; Sun, 05 Mar
2023 02:14:01 -0800 (PST)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!news.misty.com!border-2.nntp.ord.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2023 02:14:01 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <6129f856-5034-43e6-b4d5-2ac250e37138n@googlegroups.com>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=162.157.97.93; posting-account=1nOeKQkAAABD2jxp4Pzmx9Hx5g9miO8y
NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.157.97.93
References: <d7cd20c9-79b6-4bce-a15c-814be18f05dan@googlegroups.com> <6129f856-5034-43e6-b4d5-2ac250e37138n@googlegroups.com>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <9ee8cd76-e16a-4c1d-9705-2e64e9178880n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasy
From: jsav...@ecn.ab.ca (Quadibloc)
Injection-Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2023 10:14:01 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Lines: 13
 by: Quadibloc - Sun, 5 Mar 2023 10:14 UTC

On further thought, perhaps there is at least a related question that
would be meaningful to ask.

Is there science fiction which used invented science of such a nature that
instead of just making it soft SF instead of hard SF, the invented science
seemed more like magic or pseudoscience - or, for some other reason, was
so bad that instead of the work merely being of a different genre, this
genuinely impacted its quality, for example, by making it seem that it was
written in a manner that was, in a way, dishonest?

So this line of inquiry doesn't have to run aground on the rocks of subjectivity
in every case.

John Savard

Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasy

<tu3emj$1fsg8$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=85925&group=rec.arts.sf.written#85925

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader01.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: davidjoh...@yahoo.com (David Johnston)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasy
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2023 18:12:51 -0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <tu3emj$1fsg8$1@dont-email.me>
References: <d7cd20c9-79b6-4bce-a15c-814be18f05dan@googlegroups.com>
<6129f856-5034-43e6-b4d5-2ac250e37138n@googlegroups.com>
<9ee8cd76-e16a-4c1d-9705-2e64e9178880n@googlegroups.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2023 01:12:51 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader01.eternal-september.org; posting-host="870ac79fcef719e38a4ae9af0f11fcbf";
logging-data="1569288"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1+QNg9J8pnnue3GPkrcQjtP7jRltm2ACLw="
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/102.8.0
Cancel-Lock: sha1:LzIrqGgfr8H0juAK48qYxxuYG4s=
In-Reply-To: <9ee8cd76-e16a-4c1d-9705-2e64e9178880n@googlegroups.com>
Content-Language: en-US
X-Antivirus: Avast (VPS 230305-10, 3/5/2023), Outbound message
X-Antivirus-Status: Clean
 by: David Johnston - Mon, 6 Mar 2023 01:12 UTC

On 2023-03-05 3:14 a.m., Quadibloc wrote:
> On further thought, perhaps there is at least a related question that
> would be meaningful to ask.
>
> Is there science fiction which used invented science of such a nature that
> instead of just making it soft SF instead of hard SF, the invented science
> seemed more like magic or pseudoscience -

Pseudoscience is a perfectly legitimate part of science fiction. It's
actually stuffed with pseudoscience and that's fine. It's the fiction
part of science fiction.

Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasy

<17248e92-72c8-4bd5-9df4-fbc7e19f05cbn@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=85935&group=rec.arts.sf.written#85935

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
X-Received: by 2002:ac8:1e0e:0:b0:3bf:b9a7:c550 with SMTP id n14-20020ac81e0e000000b003bfb9a7c550mr3092866qtl.1.1678124451525;
Mon, 06 Mar 2023 09:40:51 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 2002:aca:130f:0:b0:384:f72:a6cb with SMTP id
e15-20020aca130f000000b003840f72a6cbmr3830681oii.1.1678124449730; Mon, 06 Mar
2023 09:40:49 -0800 (PST)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!proxad.net!feeder1-2.proxad.net!209.85.160.216.MISMATCH!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2023 09:40:49 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <d7cd20c9-79b6-4bce-a15c-814be18f05dan@googlegroups.com>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=188.29.200.178; posting-account=dELd-gkAAABehNzDMBP4sfQElk2tFztP
NNTP-Posting-Host: 188.29.200.178
References: <d7cd20c9-79b6-4bce-a15c-814be18f05dan@googlegroups.com>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <17248e92-72c8-4bd5-9df4-fbc7e19f05cbn@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasy
From: rja.carn...@excite.com (Robert Carnegie)
Injection-Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2023 17:40:51 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 by: Robert Carnegie - Mon, 6 Mar 2023 17:40 UTC

On Friday, 3 March 2023 at 22:16:15 UTC, David Brown wrote:
> Here's something a little more directly related than usual, I reviewed Zathura, which is based on a book. I covered it because it features a robot, albeit in a relatively minor role. Something peripheral I didn't cover, are there acceptable limits on "science fantasy"? I could see a spectrum starting at SF that accepts "real world" physics but adds magical/ psychic/ extra-physical elements, close to Star Wars. The furthest extreme would be where the world and assumed physics are completely invented, which in some lights would be the same as fantasy. The real bottom line would be, has anyone found a story that took this too far to be enjoyable?
>
> https://trendytroodon.blogspot.com/2023/03/robot-revolution-one-where-kristin.html

For me, whether a work of speculative fiction isn't
satisfactory has less to do with its respect for
rational physics or its use of magic, but just for it
being a bad story or badly done. But partly, it's
that if a worldbuilding element is unsatisfactory,
I've learned to ignore it. Or maybe to edit it in
my head.

I think someone here was strongly dissatisfied
by a book where a starship was powered by the
crew's footsteps... or something like that.
Converting muscle force and weight to energy.
That would be difficult to ignore. I don't remember
which book; I wasn't motivated to seek it out.

A particular category of story problem is where
the worldbuilding apparently allows an easier
strategy than what the characters actually do.
Occasionally someone says to Doctor Who,
"You've got a time machine, so why not just go
back to yesterday and stop this before it happens?"
and the Doctor has to say that he or she isn't
allowed to do that somehow.

Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasy

<b670183f-2ad0-4923-8ea7-2dff5846daf4n@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=85938&group=rec.arts.sf.written#85938

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
X-Received: by 2002:ae9:ed88:0:b0:742:7786:f6c4 with SMTP id c130-20020ae9ed88000000b007427786f6c4mr3301133qkg.9.1678125768358;
Mon, 06 Mar 2023 10:02:48 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:3096:b0:690:dd03:fd8a with SMTP id
g22-20020a056830309600b00690dd03fd8amr3801922ots.2.1678125768101; Mon, 06 Mar
2023 10:02:48 -0800 (PST)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!proxad.net!feeder1-2.proxad.net!209.85.160.216.MISMATCH!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2023 10:02:47 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <tu3emj$1fsg8$1@dont-email.me>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=162.157.97.93; posting-account=1nOeKQkAAABD2jxp4Pzmx9Hx5g9miO8y
NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.157.97.93
References: <d7cd20c9-79b6-4bce-a15c-814be18f05dan@googlegroups.com>
<6129f856-5034-43e6-b4d5-2ac250e37138n@googlegroups.com> <9ee8cd76-e16a-4c1d-9705-2e64e9178880n@googlegroups.com>
<tu3emj$1fsg8$1@dont-email.me>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <b670183f-2ad0-4923-8ea7-2dff5846daf4n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasy
From: jsav...@ecn.ab.ca (Quadibloc)
Injection-Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2023 18:02:48 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 by: Quadibloc - Mon, 6 Mar 2023 18:02 UTC

On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 6:12:56 PM UTC-7, David Johnston wrote:
> On 2023-03-05 3:14 a.m., Quadibloc wrote:
> > On further thought, perhaps there is at least a related question that
> > would be meaningful to ask.
> >
> > Is there science fiction which used invented science of such a nature that
> > instead of just making it soft SF instead of hard SF, the invented science
> > seemed more like magic or pseudoscience -
>
> Pseudoscience is a perfectly legitimate part of science fiction. It's
> actually stuffed with pseudoscience and that's fine. It's the fiction
> part of science fiction.

Maybe I haven't used the word properly.

Except to hard-core hard SF enthusiasts, the use of, say, faster-than-light
spaceships in a science fiction story would not be _annoying_ to the typical
science fiction reader.

By pseudoscience, I'm thinking of things that were falsely proposed in
the real world as science by cranks and crackpots. Stuff that made it
to the pages of Martin Gardner's _Fads and Fallacies in the Name of
Science_... perpetual motion, the Dean drive, the Hieronymous Machine,
Velikovsky, Lysenkoism, the Earth being either flat or inside-out.

However, the fact that pseudoscience took up the plot premise of
Burroughs' Pellucidar novels doesn't seem to have annoyed anyone.
And, for that matter, could The Land that Time Forgot be considered
to have a relationship to pseudoscience of this sort?

John Savard

Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasy

<af626f2c-9a4c-4bd8-92e3-6ef79ec24ad1n@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=85955&group=rec.arts.sf.written#85955

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:349:b0:742:34c9:a6c2 with SMTP id t9-20020a05620a034900b0074234c9a6c2mr2570440qkm.4.1678137174329;
Mon, 06 Mar 2023 13:12:54 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6870:5aa9:b0:176:4254:247e with SMTP id
dt41-20020a0568705aa900b001764254247emr4180488oab.1.1678137174050; Mon, 06
Mar 2023 13:12:54 -0800 (PST)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.blueworldhosting.com!feed1.usenet.blueworldhosting.com!peer01.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2023 13:12:53 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <b670183f-2ad0-4923-8ea7-2dff5846daf4n@googlegroups.com>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=63.229.64.121; posting-account=6ksdAwoAAABwqd4klmYEjqNH_AIeZIZe
NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.229.64.121
References: <d7cd20c9-79b6-4bce-a15c-814be18f05dan@googlegroups.com>
<6129f856-5034-43e6-b4d5-2ac250e37138n@googlegroups.com> <9ee8cd76-e16a-4c1d-9705-2e64e9178880n@googlegroups.com>
<tu3emj$1fsg8$1@dont-email.me> <b670183f-2ad0-4923-8ea7-2dff5846daf4n@googlegroups.com>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <af626f2c-9a4c-4bd8-92e3-6ef79ec24ad1n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasy
From: davidnbr...@gmail.com (David Brown)
Injection-Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2023 21:12:54 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Received-Bytes: 4210
 by: David Brown - Mon, 6 Mar 2023 21:12 UTC

On Monday, March 6, 2023 at 11:02:50 AM UTC-7, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 6:12:56 PM UTC-7, David Johnston wrote:
> > On 2023-03-05 3:14 a.m., Quadibloc wrote:
> > > On further thought, perhaps there is at least a related question that
> > > would be meaningful to ask.
> > >
> > > Is there science fiction which used invented science of such a nature that
> > > instead of just making it soft SF instead of hard SF, the invented science
> > > seemed more like magic or pseudoscience -
> >
> > Pseudoscience is a perfectly legitimate part of science fiction. It's
> > actually stuffed with pseudoscience and that's fine. It's the fiction
> > part of science fiction.
> Maybe I haven't used the word properly.
>
> Except to hard-core hard SF enthusiasts, the use of, say, faster-than-light
> spaceships in a science fiction story would not be _annoying_ to the typical
> science fiction reader.
>
> By pseudoscience, I'm thinking of things that were falsely proposed in
> the real world as science by cranks and crackpots. Stuff that made it
> to the pages of Martin Gardner's _Fads and Fallacies in the Name of
> Science_... perpetual motion, the Dean drive, the Hieronymous Machine,
> Velikovsky, Lysenkoism, the Earth being either flat or inside-out.
>
> However, the fact that pseudoscience took up the plot premise of
> Burroughs' Pellucidar novels doesn't seem to have annoyed anyone.
> And, for that matter, could The Land that Time Forgot be considered
> to have a relationship to pseudoscience of this sort?
>
> John Savard
I was thinking of posting on this vein, anything to do with eugenics is definitely in my discomfort zone. Some works were able to explore its implications in a neutral or critical tone, like The Marching Morons, but others just highlight the role of elitism in the 1950s. I recall a few works referencing the idea of violence or at least heightened male aggression being associated with the XYY chromosome, which we now know was largely driven by a hoax by a defense attorney. The one that completely put me off was a reference in Alien 3, specifically because the scientific community had renounced the underlying premises by the time the first movie came out.

I have also been thinking over a microgenre of works based on obsolete scientific theories. I would consider these in the "science fantasy" category, particularly in that they tend to treat the "science" about the same way fantasy would a magic "system". The two examples I can think of right off the top of my head are Sail On, Sail On by Philip Jose Farmer and The World As We Know't by Howard Waldrop.

Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasy

<de0f08c8-5ae0-4dd1-b686-37950fd53613n@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=85963&group=rec.arts.sf.written#85963

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
X-Received: by 2002:a37:9ac5:0:b0:71f:b908:7b82 with SMTP id c188-20020a379ac5000000b0071fb9087b82mr3040360qke.14.1678141256145;
Mon, 06 Mar 2023 14:20:56 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6870:9555:b0:176:53de:b5fa with SMTP id
v21-20020a056870955500b0017653deb5famr4449492oal.1.1678141255824; Mon, 06 Mar
2023 14:20:55 -0800 (PST)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.blueworldhosting.com!feed1.usenet.blueworldhosting.com!peer01.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2023 14:20:55 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <d7cd20c9-79b6-4bce-a15c-814be18f05dan@googlegroups.com>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=74.135.51.102; posting-account=cb82vgoAAADiuzKJbJeayX3h1OczR1mL
NNTP-Posting-Host: 74.135.51.102
References: <d7cd20c9-79b6-4bce-a15c-814be18f05dan@googlegroups.com>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <de0f08c8-5ae0-4dd1-b686-37950fd53613n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasy
From: jack.boh...@gmail.com (Jack Bohn)
Injection-Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2023 22:20:56 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Received-Bytes: 2767
 by: Jack Bohn - Mon, 6 Mar 2023 22:20 UTC

David Brown wrote:
> Here's something a little more directly related than usual, I reviewed Zathura, which is based on a book. I covered it because it features a robot, albeit in a relatively minor role. Something peripheral I didn't cover, are there acceptable limits on "science fantasy"? I could see a spectrum starting at SF that accepts "real world" physics but adds magical/ psychic/ extra-physical elements, close to Star Wars. The furthest extreme would be where the world and assumed physics are completely invented, which in some lights would be the same as fantasy. The real bottom line would be, has anyone found a story that took this too far to be enjoyable?
>
> https://trendytroodon.blogspot.com/2023/03/robot-revolution-one-where-kristin.html

My thought is that the difference between science-fiction-like work and non-science-fiction-like work is not its congruence to the real world, but in its exploring whatever concepts it accepts as its own world. Example: Niven's "The Magic Goes Away" universe is based on the idea (to be scientific, I could say "theory") that magic gets "used up" in a place, and sets up various problems that causes or solves. On the other side the Jack and the Beanstalk story we've read or had read to us as children: there's a giant, run away, there's a goose that lays golden eggs, take it; good lessons in themselves, but not engaging your critical thinking.

To my way of thinking, the fantasy part of Zathura (the movie, I haven't read the book -- I also hav

Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasy

<6de4f8fc-9d45-4db5-a5fe-22f5965b096an@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=85966&group=rec.arts.sf.written#85966

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:2294:b0:742:7bfe:5c00 with SMTP id o20-20020a05620a229400b007427bfe5c00mr3520071qkh.3.1678141749075;
Mon, 06 Mar 2023 14:29:09 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:308a:b0:68d:48be:fa9c with SMTP id
g10-20020a056830308a00b0068d48befa9cmr4021575ots.1.1678141748813; Mon, 06 Mar
2023 14:29:08 -0800 (PST)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.blueworldhosting.com!feed1.usenet.blueworldhosting.com!peer01.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2023 14:29:08 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <de0f08c8-5ae0-4dd1-b686-37950fd53613n@googlegroups.com>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=74.135.51.102; posting-account=cb82vgoAAADiuzKJbJeayX3h1OczR1mL
NNTP-Posting-Host: 74.135.51.102
References: <d7cd20c9-79b6-4bce-a15c-814be18f05dan@googlegroups.com> <de0f08c8-5ae0-4dd1-b686-37950fd53613n@googlegroups.com>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <6de4f8fc-9d45-4db5-a5fe-22f5965b096an@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasy
From: jack.boh...@gmail.com (Jack Bohn)
Injection-Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2023 22:29:09 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Received-Bytes: 3685
 by: Jack Bohn - Mon, 6 Mar 2023 22:29 UTC

On Monday, March 6, 2023 at 5:20:58 PM UTC-5, Jack Bohn wrote:
> David Brown wrote:
> > Here's something a little more directly related than usual, I reviewed Zathura, which is based on a book. I covered it because it features a robot, albeit in a relatively minor role. Something peripheral I didn't cover, are there acceptable limits on "science fantasy"? I could see a spectrum starting at SF that accepts "real world" physics but adds magical/ psychic/ extra-physical elements, close to Star Wars. The furthest extreme would be where the world and assumed physics are completely invented, which in some lights would be the same as fantasy. The real bottom line would be, has anyone found a story that took this too far to be enjoyable?
> >
> > https://trendytroodon.blogspot.com/2023/03/robot-revolution-one-where-kristin.html

My thought is that the difference between science-fiction-like work and non-science-fiction-like work is not its congruence to the real world, but in its exploring whatever concepts it accepts as its own world. Example: Niven's "The Magic Goes Away" universe is based on the idea (to be scientific, I could say "theory") that magic gets "used up" in a place, and sets up various problems that causes or solves. On the other side the Jack and the Beanstalk story we've read or had read to us as children: there's a giant, run away, there's a goose that lays golden eggs, take it; good lessons in themselves, but not engaging your critical thinking.

To my way of thinking, the fantasy part of Zathura (the movie, I haven't read the book -- I also haven't read Jumanji or seen the original movie, but have seen the one based on it having a video game version) works more in the vein of science fiction. The science fiction part... yeah, AFAIR works in the vein of fantasy, or rather other genre dressed up as science fiction.. That's partially first impression: the ads could not help putting one in mind of "Jumanji in Space" and just seeing jungle cliches in space helmets instead of pith helmets. The Black Hole[*], IIRC, would have no story difference or different solution if it had been crashing planets or a comet, no game difference either except maybe moving back 2 or 1 squares instead of 3, the jungle equivalents would be a chasm, or elephant stampede, or anaconda.

--
-Jack

Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasy

<fmre0ilhq8d16hj4f11aveta6hjdl3mcri@4ax.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=86014&group=rec.arts.sf.written#86014

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader01.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: psper...@old.netcom.invalid (Paul S Person)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasy
Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2023 09:20:00 -0800
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 66
Message-ID: <fmre0ilhq8d16hj4f11aveta6hjdl3mcri@4ax.com>
References: <d7cd20c9-79b6-4bce-a15c-814be18f05dan@googlegroups.com> <de0f08c8-5ae0-4dd1-b686-37950fd53613n@googlegroups.com> <6de4f8fc-9d45-4db5-a5fe-22f5965b096an@googlegroups.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Injection-Info: reader01.eternal-september.org; posting-host="c64563bb736c525d1ed754961b83c4fa";
logging-data="529121"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX19w3MbV1XBvk/R5ilx8Oz8SPvPP/I/mr1w="
User-Agent: ForteAgent/8.00.32.1272
Cancel-Lock: sha1:GE6c/e10E3JrpOiM5mCfiTKnq44=
 by: Paul S Person - Tue, 7 Mar 2023 17:20 UTC

On Mon, 6 Mar 2023 14:29:08 -0800 (PST), Jack Bohn
<jack.bohn64@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, March 6, 2023 at 5:20:58?PM UTC-5, Jack Bohn wrote:
>> David Brown wrote:
>> > Here's something a little more directly related than usual, I reviewed Zathura, which is based on a book. I covered it because it features a robot, albeit in a relatively minor role. Something peripheral I didn't cover, are there acceptable limits on "science fantasy"? I could see a spectrum starting at SF that accepts "real world" physics but adds magical/ psychic/ extra-physical elements, close to Star Wars. The furthest extreme would be where the world and assumed physics are completely invented, which in some lights would be the same as fantasy. The real bottom line would be, has anyone found a story that took this too far to be enjoyable?
>> >
>> > https://trendytroodon.blogspot.com/2023/03/robot-revolution-one-where-kristin.html
>
> My thought is that the difference between science-fiction-like work and non-science-fiction-like work is not its congruence to the real world, but in its exploring whatever concepts it accepts as its own world. Example: Niven's "The Magic Goes Away" universe is based on the idea (to be scientific, I could say "theory") that magic gets "used up" in a place, and sets up various problems that causes or solves. On the other side the Jack and the Beanstalk story we've read or had read to us as children: there's a giant, run away, there's a goose that lays golden eggs, take it; good lessons in themselves, but not engaging your critical thinking.
>
> To my way of thinking, the fantasy part of Zathura (the movie, I haven't read the book -- I also haven't read Jumanji or seen the original movie, but have seen the one based on it having a video game version) works more in the vein of science fiction. The science fiction part... yeah, AFAIR works in the vein of fantasy, or rather other genre dressed up as science fiction. That's partially first impression: the ads could not help putting one in mind of "Jumanji in Space" and just seeing jungle cliches in space helmets instead of pith helmets. The Black Hole[*], IIRC, would have no story difference or different solution if it had been crashing planets or a comet, no game difference either except maybe moving back 2 or 1 squares instead of 3, the jungle equivalents would be a chasm, or elephant stampede, or anaconda.

I've seen the original /Jumanji/, the first "sequel", and /Zathura/.

/Zathura/ is -- well, as you describe it. It works as science fiction,
but whether it is or whether it is fantasy is harder to say. At least,
based on what I remember of it.

The "sequel" is simply not relevant. It is a completely different type
of film.

But the point of my reply is this: you should watch the original
/Jumanji/. It is clearly fantasy, but it has /much/ more of an actual
story. It makes it clear just how thin the story in /Zathura/ really
is.

As to the trailer, it came out after the original /Jumanji/, and was
trying to attract the (very large) audience that had seen /Jumanji/
and enjoyed it. Which still happens, of course.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasy

<bcc556c7-ae15-4aed-9d2b-3b4c68e5aef3n@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=86035&group=rec.arts.sf.written#86035

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
X-Received: by 2002:a37:6389:0:b0:742:f3f8:77ae with SMTP id x131-20020a376389000000b00742f3f877aemr4821138qkb.6.1678246196070;
Tue, 07 Mar 2023 19:29:56 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:246d:b0:68b:c94d:bbf7 with SMTP id
x45-20020a056830246d00b0068bc94dbbf7mr5178385otr.0.1678246195811; Tue, 07 Mar
2023 19:29:55 -0800 (PST)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!proxad.net!feeder1-2.proxad.net!209.85.160.216.MISMATCH!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2023 19:29:55 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <fmre0ilhq8d16hj4f11aveta6hjdl3mcri@4ax.com>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=63.229.64.121; posting-account=6ksdAwoAAABwqd4klmYEjqNH_AIeZIZe
NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.229.64.121
References: <d7cd20c9-79b6-4bce-a15c-814be18f05dan@googlegroups.com>
<de0f08c8-5ae0-4dd1-b686-37950fd53613n@googlegroups.com> <6de4f8fc-9d45-4db5-a5fe-22f5965b096an@googlegroups.com>
<fmre0ilhq8d16hj4f11aveta6hjdl3mcri@4ax.com>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <bcc556c7-ae15-4aed-9d2b-3b4c68e5aef3n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasy
From: davidnbr...@gmail.com (David Brown)
Injection-Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 03:29:56 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 by: David Brown - Wed, 8 Mar 2023 03:29 UTC

On Tuesday, March 7, 2023 at 10:20:11 AM UTC-7, Paul S Person wrote:

> The "sequel" is simply not relevant. It is a completely different type
> of film.
>
> But the point of my reply is this: you should watch the original
> /Jumanji/. It is clearly fantasy, but it has /much/ more of an actual
> story. It makes it clear just how thin the story in /Zathura/ really
> is.

I chose the description "thematic sequel" as the best description of the relationship between Jumanji and Zathura. The other major example, which may well have had a hand in establishing the term, was George Romero's "trilogy" of Night of the Living Dead, Dawn of the Dead and Day of the Dead. I was really trying to leave Jumanji out of my review otherwise. I have to say that I liked Zathura better than Jumanji as soon as I saw it. A lot of it lies in the themes and tone, which are at best darker and at worst entirely uneven in Jumanji. However, I do find the story of Zathura to be preferrable in many ways. It's simpler, which allows for corresponding focus, plus it stays focused on the characters and setting in play at the beginning. One more mark I hold against Jumanji is the romance plot. I find the whole idea of childhood ""friends" automatically becoming couples later to be usually no more than a lazy contrivance in modern cinema, and this is one of the more blatant examples. The core problem is that the only thing it does is keep the characters together in the epilogue without exploring how events in the middle kept them in contact.

Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasy

<ea33c9f6-2130-49de-b6e5-1b4025fb173en@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=86039&group=rec.arts.sf.written#86039

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:71a:b0:742:30f3:c332 with SMTP id 26-20020a05620a071a00b0074230f3c332mr5315304qkc.15.1678286932871;
Wed, 08 Mar 2023 06:48:52 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 2002:aca:2119:0:b0:384:1f5f:d19e with SMTP id
25-20020aca2119000000b003841f5fd19emr5395443oiz.0.1678286932511; Wed, 08 Mar
2023 06:48:52 -0800 (PST)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.blueworldhosting.com!feed1.usenet.blueworldhosting.com!peer02.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2023 06:48:52 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <bcc556c7-ae15-4aed-9d2b-3b4c68e5aef3n@googlegroups.com>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=74.135.51.102; posting-account=cb82vgoAAADiuzKJbJeayX3h1OczR1mL
NNTP-Posting-Host: 74.135.51.102
References: <d7cd20c9-79b6-4bce-a15c-814be18f05dan@googlegroups.com>
<de0f08c8-5ae0-4dd1-b686-37950fd53613n@googlegroups.com> <6de4f8fc-9d45-4db5-a5fe-22f5965b096an@googlegroups.com>
<fmre0ilhq8d16hj4f11aveta6hjdl3mcri@4ax.com> <bcc556c7-ae15-4aed-9d2b-3b4c68e5aef3n@googlegroups.com>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <ea33c9f6-2130-49de-b6e5-1b4025fb173en@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasy
From: jack.boh...@gmail.com (Jack Bohn)
Injection-Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 14:48:52 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Received-Bytes: 3310
 by: Jack Bohn - Wed, 8 Mar 2023 14:48 UTC

David Brown wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 7, 2023 at 10:20:11 AM UTC-7, Paul S Person wrote:
>
> > The "sequel" is simply not relevant. It is a completely different type
> > of film.
> >
> > But the point of my reply is this: you should watch the original
> > /Jumanji/. It is clearly fantasy, but it has /much/ more of an actual
> > story. It makes it clear just how thin the story in /Zathura/ really
> > is.
> I chose the description "thematic sequel" as the best description of the relationship between Jumanji and Zathura. The other major example, which may well have had a hand in establishing the term, was George Romero's "trilogy" of Night of the Living Dead, Dawn of the Dead and Day of the Dead.

I like the term "thematic sequel." On some lost site, some reviewer, having watched "The Mad Genius"(1931) close upon "Svengali"(1931) enumerated three ways to cash in on the success of a popular movie: sequel, remake, and ripoff. "The Mad Genius" being the odd case of a studio ripping off itself, starring John Barrymore and Marian Marsh in a J. Grubb Alexander screenplay (which, I see, was an adaptation of a play, which I am now wondering had to be twisted how far towards "Svengali"'s play, "Trilby").

Taking the artistic rather than commercial view, we have the sequel as thoughts on further consequences, remake as re-evaluation, and ripoff as riposte, or "thematic sequel" if done by the originator.

(After _A Christmas Carol_, Dickens was asked for more Christmas stories. In his first try, _The Chimes_, to show an old man how his pessimism about the future would affect his child, the chimes of a church called forth the Spirit of New Years Yet to Come, the Spirit of New Years Yet Further to Come, and the Spirit of New Years Even Further Yet to Come. He did better.)

--
-Jack

Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasy

<bceh0idvusrubrlou51l34vlonnebi6he7@4ax.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=86046&group=rec.arts.sf.written#86046

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader01.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: psper...@old.netcom.invalid (Paul S Person)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasy
Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 08:47:59 -0800
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 56
Message-ID: <bceh0idvusrubrlou51l34vlonnebi6he7@4ax.com>
References: <d7cd20c9-79b6-4bce-a15c-814be18f05dan@googlegroups.com> <de0f08c8-5ae0-4dd1-b686-37950fd53613n@googlegroups.com> <6de4f8fc-9d45-4db5-a5fe-22f5965b096an@googlegroups.com> <fmre0ilhq8d16hj4f11aveta6hjdl3mcri@4ax.com> <bcc556c7-ae15-4aed-9d2b-3b4c68e5aef3n@googlegroups.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Injection-Info: reader01.eternal-september.org; posting-host="37ee0d103a3a6aa0801c2009443420cc";
logging-data="1055932"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1/aekFNcMXMaVNeZok1YRj8vUlfsxFX+ec="
User-Agent: ForteAgent/8.00.32.1272
Cancel-Lock: sha1:rTWjzVbldDMvbJpv43L24wHAT+s=
 by: Paul S Person - Wed, 8 Mar 2023 16:47 UTC

On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 19:29:55 -0800 (PST), David Brown
<davidnbrown80@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, March 7, 2023 at 10:20:11?AM UTC-7, Paul S Person wrote:
>
>> The "sequel" is simply not relevant. It is a completely different type
>> of film.
>>
>> But the point of my reply is this: you should watch the original
>> /Jumanji/. It is clearly fantasy, but it has /much/ more of an actual
>> story. It makes it clear just how thin the story in /Zathura/ really
>> is.
>
>I chose the description "thematic sequel" as the best description of the relationship between Jumanji and Zathura. The other major example, which may well have had a hand in establishing the term, was George Romero's "trilogy" of Night of the Living Dead, Dawn of the Dead and Day of the Dead. I was really trying to leave Jumanji out of my review otherwise. I have to say that I liked Zathura better than Jumanji as soon as I saw it. A lot of it lies in the themes and tone, which are at best darker and at worst entirely uneven in Jumanji. However, I do find the story of Zathura to be preferrable in many ways. It's simpler, which allows for corresponding focus, plus it stays focused on the characters and setting in play at the beginning. One more mark I hold against Jumanji is the romance plot. I find the whole idea of childhood ""friends" automatically becoming couples later to be usually no more than a lazy contrivance in modern cinema, and this is one of the more blatant examples. The
>core problem is that the only thing it does is keep the characters together in the epilogue without exploring how events in the middle kept them in contact.

Sadly, the person I was responding to hasn't seen the original
/Jumanji/.

And your preference for simplistic children's live-action films over
those attempting to do a bit more is -- your preference, to which you
are entitled.

Perhaps you would prefer a Peter Jackson version -- three films, each
three hours long. It would go into amazing detail about "how they
stayed together".

Although I treat the Romero's as a series, they are a very loose
trilogy -- even more so than the Terminator series, which /might/ be
the result of actual long-range planning but is more likely just a
bunch of films on a similar topic (as the Romero films appear to be).

But that is nothing strange; surely there are SF "series" that are
really just a set of novels set in the same universe but not otherwise
connected.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasy

<9d57c888-53c8-4bbb-9385-b21d1b19f893n@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=86074&group=rec.arts.sf.written#86074

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
X-Received: by 2002:ac8:5e0a:0:b0:3bf:d1e1:aaf4 with SMTP id h10-20020ac85e0a000000b003bfd1e1aaf4mr5987934qtx.8.1678325427239;
Wed, 08 Mar 2023 17:30:27 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:2464:b0:688:cfcc:ddaf with SMTP id
x36-20020a056830246400b00688cfccddafmr6338365otr.3.1678325426935; Wed, 08 Mar
2023 17:30:26 -0800 (PST)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.blueworldhosting.com!feed1.usenet.blueworldhosting.com!peer01.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2023 17:30:26 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <bceh0idvusrubrlou51l34vlonnebi6he7@4ax.com>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=63.229.64.121; posting-account=6ksdAwoAAABwqd4klmYEjqNH_AIeZIZe
NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.229.64.121
References: <d7cd20c9-79b6-4bce-a15c-814be18f05dan@googlegroups.com>
<de0f08c8-5ae0-4dd1-b686-37950fd53613n@googlegroups.com> <6de4f8fc-9d45-4db5-a5fe-22f5965b096an@googlegroups.com>
<fmre0ilhq8d16hj4f11aveta6hjdl3mcri@4ax.com> <bcc556c7-ae15-4aed-9d2b-3b4c68e5aef3n@googlegroups.com>
<bceh0idvusrubrlou51l34vlonnebi6he7@4ax.com>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <9d57c888-53c8-4bbb-9385-b21d1b19f893n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasy
From: davidnbr...@gmail.com (David Brown)
Injection-Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 01:30:27 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Received-Bytes: 3622
 by: David Brown - Thu, 9 Mar 2023 01:30 UTC

On Wednesday, March 8, 2023 at 9:48:04 AM UTC-7, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 19:29:55 -0800 (PST), David Brown
> <davidn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Tuesday, March 7, 2023 at 10:20:11?AM UTC-7, Paul S Person wrote:
> >
>
> Sadly, the person I was responding to hasn't seen the original
> /Jumanji/.
>
> And your preference for simplistic children's live-action films over
> those attempting to do a bit more is -- your preference, to which you
> are entitled.
>
I would really agree with your earlier comment that the movies aren't comparable except as personal taste. I would have to watch it again to say more than I have, and I still don't think it would be suitable for what I "do" as a reviewer. My bigger vent is that Jumangi had its own "simplistic" elements, which as in the example of the (minor) romance plot often came precisely from its attempts to be appealing to teens and adults. The paradox is that it was "dark" and subversive when doing actual fantasy (to the point of pushing the limits toward horror) but pulled every last punch when it came up against "mainstream" conventions. In that direction lie far worse examples of what I think should be called "pseudo-complexity", where convoluted plots serve to distract from flaws in the story and characters and/ or fundamental lack of anything to say.

> But that is nothing strange; surely there are SF "series" that are
> really just a set of novels set in the same universe but not otherwise
> connected.

Looking back to the pulp era, the example that stands out for me is Stanley Weinbaum's "Planet" series. It did feature recurring characters, but many/ most were about characters in self contained arcs. Also, there were few if any where the events of a preceding story were a plot point in another, even featuring the same characters. In more recent times, it's still not exactly something that's caught on. It is at least increasingly common to have "minor" characters get their own adventures sooner or later. For that matter, the original Oz series did that frequently.

Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasy

<ebfb8afe-4f81-49e4-86ae-a5a36c692da0n@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=86130&group=rec.arts.sf.written#86130

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:129a:b0:743:6c86:4cfc with SMTP id w26-20020a05620a129a00b007436c864cfcmr313358qki.13.1678412915503;
Thu, 09 Mar 2023 17:48:35 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:b10:b0:384:c7b:5fa7 with SMTP id
s16-20020a0568080b1000b003840c7b5fa7mr7298892oij.2.1678412915094; Thu, 09 Mar
2023 17:48:35 -0800 (PST)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!proxad.net!feeder1-2.proxad.net!209.85.160.216.MISMATCH!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2023 17:48:34 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <17248e92-72c8-4bd5-9df4-fbc7e19f05cbn@googlegroups.com>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=92.41.137.149; posting-account=dELd-gkAAABehNzDMBP4sfQElk2tFztP
NNTP-Posting-Host: 92.41.137.149
References: <d7cd20c9-79b6-4bce-a15c-814be18f05dan@googlegroups.com> <17248e92-72c8-4bd5-9df4-fbc7e19f05cbn@googlegroups.com>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <ebfb8afe-4f81-49e4-86ae-a5a36c692da0n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasy
From: rja.carn...@excite.com (Robert Carnegie)
Injection-Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 01:48:35 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 by: Robert Carnegie - Fri, 10 Mar 2023 01:48 UTC

On Monday, 6 March 2023 at 17:40:54 UTC, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> On Friday, 3 March 2023 at 22:16:15 UTC, David Brown wrote:
> > Here's something a little more directly related than usual, I reviewed Zathura, which is based on a book. I covered it because it features a robot, albeit in a relatively minor role. Something peripheral I didn't cover, are there acceptable limits on "science fantasy"? I could see a spectrum starting at SF that accepts "real world" physics but adds magical/ psychic/ extra-physical elements, close to Star Wars. The furthest extreme would be where the world and assumed physics are completely invented, which in some lights would be the same as fantasy. The real bottom line would be, has anyone found a story that took this too far to be enjoyable?
> >
> > https://trendytroodon.blogspot.com/2023/03/robot-revolution-one-where-kristin.html
> For me, whether a work of speculative fiction isn't
> satisfactory has less to do with its respect for
> rational physics or its use of magic, but just for it
> being a bad story or badly done. But partly, it's
> that if a worldbuilding element is unsatisfactory,
> I've learned to ignore it. Or maybe to edit it in
> my head.
>
> I think someone here was strongly dissatisfied
> by a book where a starship was powered by the
> crew's footsteps... or something like that.
> Converting muscle force and weight to energy.
> That would be difficult to ignore. I don't remember
> which book; I wasn't motivated to seek it out.

...._Record of a Spaceborn Few_ by Becky Chambers.

Review by James Nicoll and some response by me.
<https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/tis-the-gift-to-be-simple>

Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasy

<61a62e13-45c5-457a-85e6-f8228783a8cdn@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=86131&group=rec.arts.sf.written#86131

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
X-Received: by 2002:ac8:56f7:0:b0:3bf:b9a4:6d41 with SMTP id 23-20020ac856f7000000b003bfb9a46d41mr6790390qtu.5.1678419941496;
Thu, 09 Mar 2023 19:45:41 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 2002:aca:1a09:0:b0:384:34c4:db1d with SMTP id
a9-20020aca1a09000000b0038434c4db1dmr7409826oia.1.1678419941268; Thu, 09 Mar
2023 19:45:41 -0800 (PST)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.blueworldhosting.com!feed1.usenet.blueworldhosting.com!peer02.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2023 19:45:41 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <ebfb8afe-4f81-49e4-86ae-a5a36c692da0n@googlegroups.com>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=2001:56a:fb70:6300:5327:3004:8002:5b73;
posting-account=1nOeKQkAAABD2jxp4Pzmx9Hx5g9miO8y
NNTP-Posting-Host: 2001:56a:fb70:6300:5327:3004:8002:5b73
References: <d7cd20c9-79b6-4bce-a15c-814be18f05dan@googlegroups.com>
<17248e92-72c8-4bd5-9df4-fbc7e19f05cbn@googlegroups.com> <ebfb8afe-4f81-49e4-86ae-a5a36c692da0n@googlegroups.com>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <61a62e13-45c5-457a-85e6-f8228783a8cdn@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasy
From: jsav...@ecn.ab.ca (Quadibloc)
Injection-Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 03:45:41 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Received-Bytes: 2177
 by: Quadibloc - Fri, 10 Mar 2023 03:45 UTC

On Thursday, March 9, 2023 at 6:48:37 PM UTC-7, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> On Monday, 6 March 2023 at 17:40:54 UTC, Robert Carnegie wrote:

> > I think someone here was strongly dissatisfied
> > by a book where a starship was powered by the
> > crew's footsteps... or something like that.
> > Converting muscle force and weight to energy.
> > That would be difficult to ignore. I don't remember
> > which book; I wasn't motivated to seek it out.

> ..._Record of a Spaceborn Few_ by Becky Chambers.

Interesting. Certainly that propulstion method is...
so extremely implausible as for it to be likely that the
implausibility was _intended_.

And, of course, if it's intended, it could be forgivable
as well, if the author's reason for doing it that way was
good enough.

John Savard

Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasy

<9b211051-f8fd-4faf-9baf-f6ad9adc4468n@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=86133&group=rec.arts.sf.written#86133

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6214:4a43:b0:56f:18ed:316f with SMTP id ph3-20020a0562144a4300b0056f18ed316fmr6474055qvb.1.1678420968066;
Thu, 09 Mar 2023 20:02:48 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 2002:a9d:7209:0:b0:68b:cbcf:c24b with SMTP id
u9-20020a9d7209000000b0068bcbcfc24bmr7695720otj.4.1678420967826; Thu, 09 Mar
2023 20:02:47 -0800 (PST)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.blueworldhosting.com!feed1.usenet.blueworldhosting.com!peer02.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2023 20:02:47 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <61a62e13-45c5-457a-85e6-f8228783a8cdn@googlegroups.com>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=2001:56a:fb70:6300:5327:3004:8002:5b73;
posting-account=1nOeKQkAAABD2jxp4Pzmx9Hx5g9miO8y
NNTP-Posting-Host: 2001:56a:fb70:6300:5327:3004:8002:5b73
References: <d7cd20c9-79b6-4bce-a15c-814be18f05dan@googlegroups.com>
<17248e92-72c8-4bd5-9df4-fbc7e19f05cbn@googlegroups.com> <ebfb8afe-4f81-49e4-86ae-a5a36c692da0n@googlegroups.com>
<61a62e13-45c5-457a-85e6-f8228783a8cdn@googlegroups.com>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <9b211051-f8fd-4faf-9baf-f6ad9adc4468n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasy
From: jsav...@ecn.ab.ca (Quadibloc)
Injection-Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 04:02:48 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Received-Bytes: 3591
 by: Quadibloc - Fri, 10 Mar 2023 04:02 UTC

On Thursday, March 9, 2023 at 8:45:43 PM UTC-7, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Thursday, March 9, 2023 at 6:48:37 PM UTC-7, Robert Carnegie wrote:

> > ..._Record of a Spaceborn Few_ by Becky Chambers.
>
> Interesting. Certainly that propulstion method is...
> so extremely implausible as for it to be likely that the
> implausibility was _intended_.
>
> And, of course, if it's intended, it could be forgivable
> as well, if the author's reason for doing it that way was
> good enough.

James Nicoll wrote, in that review you mentioned,

"After all, any life-support system that can keep
thousands of people alive in deep space should
be able to do the same on Earth, and do so for
many more humans than the few who made it
onto the fleet."

That wouid _seem_ to make sense.

That isn't a reason, though, for not colonizing
Mars, since it has the advantage that if someone
from Earth launched nuclear-armed ICBMs at it,
there would be a lot of warning time.

So if the Earth, rendered uninhabitable by Man,
still bred, say, giant mutant chickens who would
stomp to bits any human habitats on the planet,
that would be a reason to get away. A ship that
can run on kinetic energy saved by the floors
could well have been fleeing from a similarly
implausible hazard in order to justify the plot.

The book isn't about propulsion systems, though.

It's about feelings. The refugees from Earth
learned to suppress their discordant yearnings
to get along on the straitened circumstances of
their journey... and now those ungrateful youngsters,
now that a _destination_ has been reached, want to
get off the ship, and live on real planets again, even
though they will be subordinate to the aliens who
run the show there.

Clearly it's obvious why this was written as a work
of science-fiction. Otherwise, nearly all potential
readers would expect to be bored to tears by a
story of, say, a village of people leading a traditional
way of life, seeing their youngsters seduced away
by the bright lights of the big cities... or, at least,
they would see no reason to root for the protagonists.

John Savard

Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasy

<72470a98-2d36-46b6-a3f9-3e0e322b223dn@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=86134&group=rec.arts.sf.written#86134

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:20d1:b0:743:6ebb:391b with SMTP id f17-20020a05620a20d100b007436ebb391bmr331206qka.10.1678421249756;
Thu, 09 Mar 2023 20:07:29 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 2002:a4a:ca0c:0:b0:525:45d5:9de9 with SMTP id
w12-20020a4aca0c000000b0052545d59de9mr9265158ooq.0.1678421249514; Thu, 09 Mar
2023 20:07:29 -0800 (PST)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.blueworldhosting.com!feed1.usenet.blueworldhosting.com!peer02.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2023 20:07:29 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <9b211051-f8fd-4faf-9baf-f6ad9adc4468n@googlegroups.com>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=2001:56a:fb70:6300:5327:3004:8002:5b73;
posting-account=1nOeKQkAAABD2jxp4Pzmx9Hx5g9miO8y
NNTP-Posting-Host: 2001:56a:fb70:6300:5327:3004:8002:5b73
References: <d7cd20c9-79b6-4bce-a15c-814be18f05dan@googlegroups.com>
<17248e92-72c8-4bd5-9df4-fbc7e19f05cbn@googlegroups.com> <ebfb8afe-4f81-49e4-86ae-a5a36c692da0n@googlegroups.com>
<61a62e13-45c5-457a-85e6-f8228783a8cdn@googlegroups.com> <9b211051-f8fd-4faf-9baf-f6ad9adc4468n@googlegroups.com>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <72470a98-2d36-46b6-a3f9-3e0e322b223dn@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasy
From: jsav...@ecn.ab.ca (Quadibloc)
Injection-Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 04:07:29 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Received-Bytes: 2497
 by: Quadibloc - Fri, 10 Mar 2023 04:07 UTC

On Thursday, March 9, 2023 at 9:02:50 PM UTC-7, Quadibloc wrote:

> Clearly it's obvious why this was written as a work
> of science-fiction. Otherwise, nearly all potential
> readers would expect to be bored to tears by a
> story of, say, a village of people leading a traditional
> way of life, seeing their youngsters seduced away
> by the bright lights of the big cities... or, at least,
> they would see no reason to root for the protagonists.

And this, of course, means that it has something in common
with science-fiction works I have read - by one of Lynn
McGuire's favorite authors.

A fellow sits down one day, and says to himself...

"I'd like to write _this kind of story_, but C. S. Forster
already did that, and he did it 'way better than I ever
could, so... what could I change so that it wouldn't be
completely pointless to try?"

Well, he may not really have said something like that
to himself, and I am being a bit unkind... but my point
is clear.

John Savard

Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasy

<tuenkq$1sgdg$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=86139&group=rec.arts.sf.written#86139

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader01.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: k_meinh...@gmx.de (Klaus Meinhard)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasy
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 08:52:58 +0100
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <tuenkq$1sgdg$1@dont-email.me>
References: <d7cd20c9-79b6-4bce-a15c-814be18f05dan@googlegroups.com>
<17248e92-72c8-4bd5-9df4-fbc7e19f05cbn@googlegroups.com>
<ebfb8afe-4f81-49e4-86ae-a5a36c692da0n@googlegroups.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 07:52:58 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader01.eternal-september.org; posting-host="991c376c99e723fb320d41e7377c1450";
logging-data="1982896"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX18NSo4CpRB4wNqC68FCcT4Y"
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/102.8.0
Cancel-Lock: sha1:5dXeSghmHJt4QMqXoXzKMeCt+eI=
Content-Language: de-DE
In-Reply-To: <ebfb8afe-4f81-49e4-86ae-a5a36c692da0n@googlegroups.com>
 by: Klaus Meinhard - Fri, 10 Mar 2023 07:52 UTC

Am 10.03.2023 um 02:48 schrieb Robert Carnegie:

>> I think someone here was strongly dissatisfied
>> by a book where a starship was powered by the
>> crew's footsteps... or something like that.
>> Converting muscle force and weight to energy.
>> That would be difficult to ignore. I don't remember
>> which book; I wasn't motivated to seek it out.
The Long Way Home by Fred Saberhagen.

--
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,

* Klaus Meinhard *

Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasy

<robertaw-CE8C80.09505510032023@news.individual.net>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=86178&group=rec.arts.sf.written#86178

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!news-peer.in.tum.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
From: rober...@drizzle.com (Robert Woodward)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasy
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 09:50:55 -0800
Organization: home user
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <robertaw-CE8C80.09505510032023@news.individual.net>
References: <d7cd20c9-79b6-4bce-a15c-814be18f05dan@googlegroups.com> <17248e92-72c8-4bd5-9df4-fbc7e19f05cbn@googlegroups.com> <ebfb8afe-4f81-49e4-86ae-a5a36c692da0n@googlegroups.com> <tuenkq$1sgdg$1@dont-email.me>
X-Trace: individual.net JggPgrnKlxQJF3C9J+J+ew6XDBlH4TnD/mhYtOYJmiq50k+N2L
X-Orig-Path: robertaw
Cancel-Lock: sha1:lNvgLLoVKSQ/amt7U24zX87i1Ys=
User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.5.2 (Intel Mac OS X)
 by: Robert Woodward - Fri, 10 Mar 2023 17:50 UTC

In article <tuenkq$1sgdg$1@dont-email.me>,
Klaus Meinhard <k_meinhard@gmx.de> wrote:

> Am 10.03.2023 um 02:48 schrieb Robert Carnegie:
>
> >> I think someone here was strongly dissatisfied
> >> by a book where a starship was powered by the
> >> crew's footsteps... or something like that.
> >> Converting muscle force and weight to energy.
> >> That would be difficult to ignore. I don't remember
> >> which book; I wasn't motivated to seek it out.
> The Long Way Home by Fred Saberhagen.

I was thinking about that story; but they were cheating. Wouldn't that
story need an absolute frame of reference to work?

For that matter, there was a story in, IIRC, Galaxy in the 70s (can't
remember if it was during or after Jim Baen's time there), in which the
rotation rate of an O'Neil colony cylinder was increasing because of
people all jogging the same direction on a track around the
circumference. I don't know if a Hollywood film has copied that bit of
ignorance, but nobody should be surprised if it had or will happened.

--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
—-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward robertaw@drizzle.com

Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasy

<tug3j3$66d$1@reader2.panix.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=86188&group=rec.arts.sf.written#86188

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!panix!.POSTED.panix3.panix.com!not-for-mail
From: jdnic...@panix.com (James Nicoll)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasy
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 20:22:59 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: Public Access Networks Corp.
Message-ID: <tug3j3$66d$1@reader2.panix.com>
References: <d7cd20c9-79b6-4bce-a15c-814be18f05dan@googlegroups.com> <ebfb8afe-4f81-49e4-86ae-a5a36c692da0n@googlegroups.com> <tuenkq$1sgdg$1@dont-email.me> <robertaw-CE8C80.09505510032023@news.individual.net>
Injection-Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 20:22:59 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader2.panix.com; posting-host="panix3.panix.com:166.84.1.3";
logging-data="6349"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@panix.com"
X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test77 (Sep 1, 2010)
 by: James Nicoll - Fri, 10 Mar 2023 20:22 UTC

In article <robertaw-CE8C80.09505510032023@news.individual.net>,
Robert Woodward <robertaw@drizzle.com> wrote:
>In article <tuenkq$1sgdg$1@dont-email.me>,
> Klaus Meinhard <k_meinhard@gmx.de> wrote:
>
>> Am 10.03.2023 um 02:48 schrieb Robert Carnegie:
>>
>> >> I think someone here was strongly dissatisfied
>> >> by a book where a starship was powered by the
>> >> crew's footsteps... or something like that.
>> >> Converting muscle force and weight to energy.
>> >> That would be difficult to ignore. I don't remember
>> >> which book; I wasn't motivated to seek it out.
>> The Long Way Home by Fred Saberhagen.
>
>I was thinking about that story; but they were cheating. Wouldn't that
>story need an absolute frame of reference to work?
>
>For that matter, there was a story in, IIRC, Galaxy in the 70s (can't
>remember if it was during or after Jim Baen's time there), in which the
>rotation rate of an O'Neil colony cylinder was increasing because of
>people all jogging the same direction on a track around the
>circumference. I don't know if a Hollywood film has copied that bit of
>ignorance, but nobody should be surprised if it had or will happened.

"Jogging Up Main Street" by Thomas Wylde, which appeared in the
November 1977 Galaxy, then edited by John J. Pierce. Baen's last
Galaxy was October 1977.

As I recall, they got letters about the Wylde.

I am interested to note that this was not, as I thought,
Wylde's only published story. He had at least four
tie-in novels, two for the Dr Bones series and two
for Alien Speedway, plus a bunch of short stories.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasy

<537df917-5f5e-4073-9a78-42d542f576e0n@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=86364&group=rec.arts.sf.written#86364

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:16cb:b0:73b:a221:2c8e with SMTP id a11-20020a05620a16cb00b0073ba2212c8emr3679347qkn.4.1678744854882;
Mon, 13 Mar 2023 15:00:54 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:2348:b0:383:bae2:3ac9 with SMTP id
ef8-20020a056808234800b00383bae23ac9mr10487278oib.2.1678744854632; Mon, 13
Mar 2023 15:00:54 -0700 (PDT)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.blueworldhosting.com!feed1.usenet.blueworldhosting.com!peer01.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2023 15:00:54 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <robertaw-CE8C80.09505510032023@news.individual.net>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=2001:56a:fb70:6300:5327:3004:8002:5b73;
posting-account=1nOeKQkAAABD2jxp4Pzmx9Hx5g9miO8y
NNTP-Posting-Host: 2001:56a:fb70:6300:5327:3004:8002:5b73
References: <d7cd20c9-79b6-4bce-a15c-814be18f05dan@googlegroups.com>
<17248e92-72c8-4bd5-9df4-fbc7e19f05cbn@googlegroups.com> <ebfb8afe-4f81-49e4-86ae-a5a36c692da0n@googlegroups.com>
<tuenkq$1sgdg$1@dont-email.me> <robertaw-CE8C80.09505510032023@news.individual.net>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <537df917-5f5e-4073-9a78-42d542f576e0n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasy
From: jsav...@ecn.ab.ca (Quadibloc)
Injection-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2023 22:00:54 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Received-Bytes: 2369
 by: Quadibloc - Mon, 13 Mar 2023 22:00 UTC

On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 10:51:01 AM UTC-7, Robert Woodward wrote:

> For that matter, there was a story in, IIRC, Galaxy in the 70s (can't
> remember if it was during or after Jim Baen's time there), in which the
> rotation rate of an O'Neil colony cylinder was increasing because of
> people all jogging the same direction on a track around the
> circumference. I don't know if a Hollywood film has copied that bit of
> ignorance, but nobody should be surprised if it had or will happened.

No laws of physics are being defied here. While the total angular
momentum of the system, being isolated in space, must be constant,
it is possible for momentum to be transferred between the colony
structure and the people who inhabit it.

If hamsters can do it, people can do it.

It's when they stop running that the change in the colony's rotation
rate proves evanescent.

John Savard

Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasy

<robertaw-C6573D.21452913032023@news.individual.net>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=86377&group=rec.arts.sf.written#86377

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader01.eternal-september.org!news.szaf.org!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
From: rober...@drizzle.com (Robert Woodward)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasy
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2023 21:45:29 -0700
Organization: home user
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <robertaw-C6573D.21452913032023@news.individual.net>
References: <d7cd20c9-79b6-4bce-a15c-814be18f05dan@googlegroups.com> <17248e92-72c8-4bd5-9df4-fbc7e19f05cbn@googlegroups.com> <ebfb8afe-4f81-49e4-86ae-a5a36c692da0n@googlegroups.com> <tuenkq$1sgdg$1@dont-email.me> <robertaw-CE8C80.09505510032023@news.individual.net> <537df917-5f5e-4073-9a78-42d542f576e0n@googlegroups.com>
X-Trace: individual.net WQCt7NguLYqkx98eOtmlCge0WCp/xIqRn0dCzd9/BqVv+Dcf0Z
X-Orig-Path: robertaw
Cancel-Lock: sha1:lV6ODYJj9YwdoyZYgrHp1EC+RJA=
User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.5.2 (Intel Mac OS X)
 by: Robert Woodward - Tue, 14 Mar 2023 04:45 UTC

In article <537df917-5f5e-4073-9a78-42d542f576e0n@googlegroups.com>,
Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

> On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 10:51:01?AM UTC-7, Robert Woodward wrote:
>
> > For that matter, there was a story in, IIRC, Galaxy in the 70s (can't
> > remember if it was during or after Jim Baen's time there), in which the
> > rotation rate of an O'Neil colony cylinder was increasing because of
> > people all jogging the same direction on a track around the
> > circumference. I don't know if a Hollywood film has copied that bit of
> > ignorance, but nobody should be surprised if it had or will happened.
>
> No laws of physics are being defied here. While the total angular
> momentum of the system, being isolated in space, must be constant,
> it is possible for momentum to be transferred between the colony
> structure and the people who inhabit it.
>
> If hamsters can do it, people can do it.
>
> It's when they stop running that the change in the colony's rotation
> rate proves evanescent.
>

You appeared to have missed the implications of my use of "rotation rate
.... was increasing". It wasn't evanescent.

--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
—-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward robertaw@drizzle.com

Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasy

<9b87d3da-ab18-4f0c-998b-e9a863effa56n@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=86382&group=rec.arts.sf.written#86382

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
X-Received: by 2002:a5d:6b48:0:b0:2ce:817b:846d with SMTP id x8-20020a5d6b48000000b002ce817b846dmr4400545wrw.4.1678797852484;
Tue, 14 Mar 2023 05:44:12 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6870:bf8b:b0:177:adf7:51ac with SMTP id
av11-20020a056870bf8b00b00177adf751acmr3023515oac.1.1678797851830; Tue, 14
Mar 2023 05:44:11 -0700 (PDT)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!proxad.net!feeder1-2.proxad.net!209.85.128.88.MISMATCH!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2023 05:44:11 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <robertaw-C6573D.21452913032023@news.individual.net>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=74.135.51.102; posting-account=cb82vgoAAADiuzKJbJeayX3h1OczR1mL
NNTP-Posting-Host: 74.135.51.102
References: <d7cd20c9-79b6-4bce-a15c-814be18f05dan@googlegroups.com>
<17248e92-72c8-4bd5-9df4-fbc7e19f05cbn@googlegroups.com> <ebfb8afe-4f81-49e4-86ae-a5a36c692da0n@googlegroups.com>
<tuenkq$1sgdg$1@dont-email.me> <robertaw-CE8C80.09505510032023@news.individual.net>
<537df917-5f5e-4073-9a78-42d542f576e0n@googlegroups.com> <robertaw-C6573D.21452913032023@news.individual.net>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <9b87d3da-ab18-4f0c-998b-e9a863effa56n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Movie review: Zathura and science fantasy
From: jack.boh...@gmail.com (Jack Bohn)
Injection-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2023 12:44:12 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 by: Jack Bohn - Tue, 14 Mar 2023 12:44 UTC

Robert Woodward wrote:
> In article <537df917-5f5e-4073...@googlegroups.com>,
> Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> > On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 10:51:01?AM UTC-7, Robert Woodward wrote:
> >
> > > For that matter, there was a story in, IIRC, Galaxy in the 70s (can't
> > > remember if it was during or after Jim Baen's time there), in which the
> > > rotation rate of an O'Neil colony cylinder was increasing because of
> > > people all jogging the same direction on a track around the
> > > circumference. I don't know if a Hollywood film has copied that bit of
> > > ignorance, but nobody should be surprised if it had or will happened.

Under the editor after Baen, but there are indications that it was bought by him. (Not sure if I can phrase that so it doesn't sound like a conspiracy chaser.)

> > No laws of physics are being defied here. While the total angular
> > momentum of the system, being isolated in space, must be constant,
> > it is possible for momentum to be transferred between the colony
> > structure and the people who inhabit it.
> >
> > It's when they stop running that the change in the colony's rotation
> > rate proves evanescent.
> >
> You appeared to have missed the implications of my use of "rotation rate
> ... was increasing". It wasn't evanescent.

Indeed, the solution was not to ban jogging (sooooo seventies!), but, to alternate days of jogging up Main Street, that is, against the rotation, and jogging down Main Street, that is, with the rotation!

I reread it this century, wondering if that might have been a joke, a "Probability Zero" if in Analog, but part of the surprise at the end of the story was that it was set on a rotating habitat -- the descriptions being either ambiguous or not given, such as the explanation of why the city was considering banning jogging. If a joke, it would have to have been a double one..

--
-Jack

1
server_pubkey.txt

rocksolid light 0.9.7
clearnet tor