On Thursday, March 2, 2023 at 12:51:55 AM UTC-5, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Friday, October 14, 2022 at 2:34:52 PM UTC-6, The Horny Goat wrote:
>
> > >And the 5.25" format would, no doubt, have turned out to be
> > >Apple-specific. Which isn't unusual; my first computer (a NS Horizon)
> > >had its own format (well, two of them if you added CP/M).
>
> > Didn't know that about the North Star but the Apple II and CP/M used
> > different formats though Apple made a CP/M add on card that made the
> > II a "CP/M box". So far as I know I only used one CP/M application and
> > trashed it when Appleworks 1.0 came out.
> It's interesting that you mention the Apple _and_ North Star when discussing
> disk format incompatibilities. Because, while in those days, nearly every
> computer's disk format was incompatible with every other computer's disk
> format, *those* two were extreme outliers.
>
> Let's take the Apple II first. Most 5 1/4" floppies used a specialized integrated
> circuit that translated eight bits of data from the computer into ten bits which
> satisfied certain conditions to directly record on the disk.
> The Apple, having been made in the early days of microcomputers, didn't
> use that circuit - it was too expensive or hard to get. Instead, Wozniak's
> genius let them use standard TTL. Software split the data up into units
> of five or six bits (there were two distinct schemes used by Apple, the
> original one with five, and the improved one with six) and those were
> translated into units of eight bits, which could be recorded on the disk
> with a standard MSI part doing the work.
>
> North Star was an outlier in a completely different way. It was one of
> the few computers that used "hard sectored" disks. To some of those
> who read this, that phrase will bring a flood of circa 1977 memories
> flooding back.
> A normal floppy disk, in addition to the big hole in the center for the
> spindle, has one tiny hole in the magnetic surface, which is sensed
> photoelectrically, to indicate where the first sector of each track should
> start.
> A hard sectored disk, on the other hand, might have eight little holes,
> one for each sector, plus one extra hole to indicate which sector was
> first.
>
> So those were perhaps the two most incompatible disk formats in
> all computerdom!

Even worse was the Amiga. Its 3.5 inch disks are in AmigaDos format, and
regular floppy drives can't read them, only Amiga drives. I still have disks
that I'm probably never going to be able to read again.

pt

On 3/2/2023 8:53 AM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, March 2, 2023 at 12:51:55 AM UTC-5, Quadibloc wrote:
>> On Friday, October 14, 2022 at 2:34:52 PM UTC-6, The Horny Goat wrote:
>>
>>>> And the 5.25" format would, no doubt, have turned out to be
>>>> Apple-specific. Which isn't unusual; my first computer (a NS Horizon)
>>>> had its own format (well, two of them if you added CP/M).
>>
>>> Didn't know that about the North Star but the Apple II and CP/M used
>>> different formats though Apple made a CP/M add on card that made the
>>> II a "CP/M box". So far as I know I only used one CP/M application and
>>> trashed it when Appleworks 1.0 came out.
>> It's interesting that you mention the Apple _and_ North Star when discussing
>> disk format incompatibilities. Because, while in those days, nearly every
>> computer's disk format was incompatible with every other computer's disk
>> format, *those* two were extreme outliers.
>>
>> Let's take the Apple II first. Most 5 1/4" floppies used a specialized integrated
>> circuit that translated eight bits of data from the computer into ten bits which
>> satisfied certain conditions to directly record on the disk.
>> The Apple, having been made in the early days of microcomputers, didn't
>> use that circuit - it was too expensive or hard to get. Instead, Wozniak's
>> genius let them use standard TTL. Software split the data up into units
>> of five or six bits (there were two distinct schemes used by Apple, the
>> original one with five, and the improved one with six) and those were
>> translated into units of eight bits, which could be recorded on the disk
>> with a standard MSI part doing the work.
>>
>> North Star was an outlier in a completely different way. It was one of
>> the few computers that used "hard sectored" disks. To some of those
>> who read this, that phrase will bring a flood of circa 1977 memories
>> flooding back.
>> A normal floppy disk, in addition to the big hole in the center for the
>> spindle, has one tiny hole in the magnetic surface, which is sensed
>> photoelectrically, to indicate where the first sector of each track should
>> start.
>> A hard sectored disk, on the other hand, might have eight little holes,
>> one for each sector, plus one extra hole to indicate which sector was
>> first.
>>
>> So those were perhaps the two most incompatible disk formats in
>> all computerdom!
>
> Even worse was the Amiga. Its 3.5 inch disks are in AmigaDos format, and
> regular floppy drives can't read them, only Amiga drives. I still have disks
> that I'm probably never going to be able to read again.
>
> pt

In a box, somewhere, I have about a dozen 8" PC floppies. I doubt that I
will ever get that data off. Bigger question though is why the hell do I
still have a dozen 8" disks lying about?

On Thursday, March 2, 2023 at 10:07:13 AM UTC-5, Jay E. Morris wrote:
> On 3/2/2023 8:53 AM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Thursday, March 2, 2023 at 12:51:55 AM UTC-5, Quadibloc wrote:
> >> On Friday, October 14, 2022 at 2:34:52 PM UTC-6, The Horny Goat wrote:
> >>
> >>>> And the 5.25" format would, no doubt, have turned out to be
> >>>> Apple-specific. Which isn't unusual; my first computer (a NS Horizon)
> >>>> had its own format (well, two of them if you added CP/M).
> >>
> >>> Didn't know that about the North Star but the Apple II and CP/M used
> >>> different formats though Apple made a CP/M add on card that made the
> >>> II a "CP/M box". So far as I know I only used one CP/M application and
> >>> trashed it when Appleworks 1.0 came out.
> >> It's interesting that you mention the Apple _and_ North Star when discussing
> >> disk format incompatibilities. Because, while in those days, nearly every
> >> computer's disk format was incompatible with every other computer's disk
> >> format, *those* two were extreme outliers.
> >>
> >> Let's take the Apple II first. Most 5 1/4" floppies used a specialized integrated
> >> circuit that translated eight bits of data from the computer into ten bits which
> >> satisfied certain conditions to directly record on the disk.
> >> The Apple, having been made in the early days of microcomputers, didn't
> >> use that circuit - it was too expensive or hard to get. Instead, Wozniak's
> >> genius let them use standard TTL. Software split the data up into units
> >> of five or six bits (there were two distinct schemes used by Apple, the
> >> original one with five, and the improved one with six) and those were
> >> translated into units of eight bits, which could be recorded on the disk
> >> with a standard MSI part doing the work.
> >>
> >> North Star was an outlier in a completely different way. It was one of
> >> the few computers that used "hard sectored" disks. To some of those
> >> who read this, that phrase will bring a flood of circa 1977 memories
> >> flooding back.
> >> A normal floppy disk, in addition to the big hole in the center for the
> >> spindle, has one tiny hole in the magnetic surface, which is sensed
> >> photoelectrically, to indicate where the first sector of each track should
> >> start.
> >> A hard sectored disk, on the other hand, might have eight little holes,
> >> one for each sector, plus one extra hole to indicate which sector was
> >> first.
> >>
> >> So those were perhaps the two most incompatible disk formats in
> >> all computerdom!
> >
> > Even worse was the Amiga. Its 3.5 inch disks are in AmigaDos format, and
> > regular floppy drives can't read them, only Amiga drives. I still have disks
> > that I'm probably never going to be able to read again.
> >
> > pt
> In a box, somewhere, I have about a dozen 8" PC floppies. I doubt that I
> will ever get that data off. Bigger question though is why the hell do I
> still have a dozen 8" disks lying about?

Ditto. I expect I also have a DECTape, and a TK70 tape cartridge somewhere.
I'm pretty sure I threw out all my card decks 20 years ago.

pt

"pete...@gmail.com" <petertrei@gmail.com> writes:
>On Thursday, March 2, 2023 at 10:07:13=E2=80=AFAM UTC-5, Jay E. Morris wrot=
>e:
>> On 3/2/2023 8:53 AM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:=20
>> > On Thursday, March 2, 2023 at 12:51:55=E2=80=AFAM UTC-5, Quadibloc wrot=

>> >>=20
>> >> So those were perhaps the two most incompatible disk formats in=20
>> >> all computerdom!=20
>> >=20
>> > Even worse was the Amiga. Its 3.5 inch disks are in AmigaDos format, an=
>d=20
>> > regular floppy drives can't read them, only Amiga drives. I still have =
>disks=20
>> > that I'm probably never going to be able to read again.=20
>> >=20
>> > pt
>> In a box, somewhere, I have about a dozen 8" PC floppies. I doubt that I=
>=20
>> will ever get that data off. Bigger question though is why the hell do I=
>=20
>> still have a dozen 8" disks lying about?
>
>Ditto. I expect I also have a DECTape, and a TK70 tape cartridge somewhere.
>I'm pretty sure I threw out all my card decks 20 years ago.

I've a box full of 9-track tapes and another of 4mm DAT tapes. I have
a SATA version of a 4mm DAT drive, but the only way I can get 9-track
tapes read is to ask Al at CHM.

I have a NOS box of 8" floppies I could probably flog on ebay.

On 2 Mar 2023 at 14:53:07 GMT, "petertrei@gmail.com"
<petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thursday, March 2, 2023 at 12:51:55 AM UTC-5, Quadibloc wrote:
>> Let's take the Apple II first. Most 5 1/4" floppies used a specialized integrated
>> circuit that translated eight bits of data from the computer into ten bits which
>> satisfied certain conditions to directly record on the disk.
>> The Apple, having been made in the early days of microcomputers, didn't
>> use that circuit - it was too expensive or hard to get. Instead, Wozniak's
>> genius let them use standard TTL. Software split the data up into units
>> of five or six bits (there were two distinct schemes used by Apple, the
>> original one with five, and the improved one with six) and those were
>> translated into units of eight bits, which could be recorded on the disk
>> with a standard MSI part doing the work.
>>
>> North Star was an outlier in a completely different way. It was one of
>> the few computers that used "hard sectored" disks. To some of those
>> who read this, that phrase will bring a flood of circa 1977 memories
>> flooding back.
>> A normal floppy disk, in addition to the big hole in the center for the
>> spindle, has one tiny hole in the magnetic surface, which is sensed
>> photoelectrically, to indicate where the first sector of each track should
>> start.
>> A hard sectored disk, on the other hand, might have eight little holes,
>> one for each sector, plus one extra hole to indicate which sector was
>> first.
>>
>> So those were perhaps the two most incompatible disk formats in
>> all computerdom!
>
> Even worse was the Amiga. Its 3.5 inch disks are in AmigaDos format, and
> regular floppy drives can't read them, only Amiga drives. I still have disks
> that I'm probably never going to be able to read again.
>

Either a greaseweazle or a drawbridge can sort you out for reading those
into an Amiga disk image file (.adf) or connect them directly to an
emulated Amiga in WinUAE (or FS-UAE/vAmiga for Mac, or UAE/Amiberry for
Linux)

https://github.com/keirf/greaseweazle
https://amiga.robsmithdev.co.uk/

Some assembly may be required, but you can buy them pre-made too.

Cheers - Jaimie
--
"Persons attempting to find a motive in this narrative will be prosecuted;
persons attempting to find a moral in it will be banished;
persons attempting to find a plot in it will be shot.
By Order of the Author." -- Mark Twain

In article <p84ML.142488$OD18.1015@fx08.iad>,
Scott Lurndal <slp53@pacbell.net> wrote:
>"pete...@gmail.com" <petertrei@gmail.com> writes:
>>On Thursday, March 2, 2023 at 10:07:13=E2=80=AFAM UTC-5, Jay E. Morris wrot=
>>e:
>>> On 3/2/2023 8:53 AM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:=20
>>> > On Thursday, March 2, 2023 at 12:51:55=E2=80=AFAM UTC-5, Quadibloc wrot=
>
>>> >>=20
>>> >> So those were perhaps the two most incompatible disk formats in=20
>>> >> all computerdom!=20
>>> >=20
>>> > Even worse was the Amiga. Its 3.5 inch disks are in AmigaDos format, an=
>>d=20
>>> > regular floppy drives can't read them, only Amiga drives. I still have =
>>disks=20
>>> > that I'm probably never going to be able to read again.=20
>>> >=20
>>> > pt
>>> In a box, somewhere, I have about a dozen 8" PC floppies. I doubt that I=
>>=20
>>> will ever get that data off. Bigger question though is why the hell do I=
>>=20
>>> still have a dozen 8" disks lying about?
>>
>>Ditto. I expect I also have a DECTape, and a TK70 tape cartridge somewhere.
>>I'm pretty sure I threw out all my card decks 20 years ago.
>
>I've a box full of 9-track tapes and another of 4mm DAT tapes. I have
>a SATA version of a 4mm DAT drive, but the only way I can get 9-track
>tapes read is to ask Al at CHM.
>
>I have a NOS box of 8" floppies I could probably flog on ebay.

I remember a story about how there were only one or two machines left that
could play three track stereo session tapes back when they were putting
all of Sinatra's stuff on CD. If any more tapes turn up in a vault
now, I wonder if any are left?
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

On Thu, 2 Mar 2023 09:07:06 -0600, "Jay E. Morris"
<morrisj@epsilon3.comcon> wrote:

>On 3/2/2023 8:53 AM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Thursday, March 2, 2023 at 12:51:55?AM UTC-5, Quadibloc wrote:
>>> On Friday, October 14, 2022 at 2:34:52?PM UTC-6, The Horny Goat wrote:
>>>
>>>>> And the 5.25" format would, no doubt, have turned out to be
>>>>> Apple-specific. Which isn't unusual; my first computer (a NS Horizon)
>>>>> had its own format (well, two of them if you added CP/M).
>>>
>>>> Didn't know that about the North Star but the Apple II and CP/M used
>>>> different formats though Apple made a CP/M add on card that made the
>>>> II a "CP/M box". So far as I know I only used one CP/M application and
>>>> trashed it when Appleworks 1.0 came out.
>>> It's interesting that you mention the Apple _and_ North Star when discussing
>>> disk format incompatibilities. Because, while in those days, nearly every
>>> computer's disk format was incompatible with every other computer's disk
>>> format, *those* two were extreme outliers.
>>>
>>> Let's take the Apple II first. Most 5 1/4" floppies used a specialized integrated
>>> circuit that translated eight bits of data from the computer into ten bits which
>>> satisfied certain conditions to directly record on the disk.
>>> The Apple, having been made in the early days of microcomputers, didn't
>>> use that circuit - it was too expensive or hard to get. Instead, Wozniak's
>>> genius let them use standard TTL. Software split the data up into units
>>> of five or six bits (there were two distinct schemes used by Apple, the
>>> original one with five, and the improved one with six) and those were
>>> translated into units of eight bits, which could be recorded on the disk
>>> with a standard MSI part doing the work.
>>>
>>> North Star was an outlier in a completely different way. It was one of
>>> the few computers that used "hard sectored" disks. To some of those
>>> who read this, that phrase will bring a flood of circa 1977 memories
>>> flooding back.
>>> A normal floppy disk, in addition to the big hole in the center for the
>>> spindle, has one tiny hole in the magnetic surface, which is sensed
>>> photoelectrically, to indicate where the first sector of each track should
>>> start.
>>> A hard sectored disk, on the other hand, might have eight little holes,
>>> one for each sector, plus one extra hole to indicate which sector was
>>> first.
>>>
>>> So those were perhaps the two most incompatible disk formats in
>>> all computerdom!
>>
>> Even worse was the Amiga. Its 3.5 inch disks are in AmigaDos format, and
>> regular floppy drives can't read them, only Amiga drives. I still have disks
>> that I'm probably never going to be able to read again.
>>
>> pt
>
>In a box, somewhere, I have about a dozen 8" PC floppies. I doubt that I
>will ever get that data off. Bigger question though is why the hell do I
>still have a dozen 8" disks lying about?

I found an external 3.5" USB-pluggable "floppy" drive on
[https://www.floppydisk.com/]. Whether they have 8" floppy drives I
have no idea.

Oh, and it /worked/. I now have images of the 3.5" "floppy" discs
stored online. I even installed Windows 3.1 from the images under
DOSBox!
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

On Thursday, March 2, 2023 at 11:34:04 AM UTC-5, Jaimie Vandenbergh wrote:
> On 2 Mar 2023 at 14:53:07 GMT, "pete...@gmail.com"
> <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Thursday, March 2, 2023 at 12:51:55 AM UTC-5, Quadibloc wrote:
> >> Let's take the Apple II first. Most 5 1/4" floppies used a specialized integrated
> >> circuit that translated eight bits of data from the computer into ten bits which
> >> satisfied certain conditions to directly record on the disk.
> >> The Apple, having been made in the early days of microcomputers, didn't
> >> use that circuit - it was too expensive or hard to get. Instead, Wozniak's
> >> genius let them use standard TTL. Software split the data up into units
> >> of five or six bits (there were two distinct schemes used by Apple, the
> >> original one with five, and the improved one with six) and those were
> >> translated into units of eight bits, which could be recorded on the disk
> >> with a standard MSI part doing the work.
> >>
> >> North Star was an outlier in a completely different way. It was one of
> >> the few computers that used "hard sectored" disks. To some of those
> >> who read this, that phrase will bring a flood of circa 1977 memories
> >> flooding back.
> >> A normal floppy disk, in addition to the big hole in the center for the
> >> spindle, has one tiny hole in the magnetic surface, which is sensed
> >> photoelectrically, to indicate where the first sector of each track should
> >> start.
> >> A hard sectored disk, on the other hand, might have eight little holes,
> >> one for each sector, plus one extra hole to indicate which sector was
> >> first.
> >>
> >> So those were perhaps the two most incompatible disk formats in
> >> all computerdom!
> >
> > Even worse was the Amiga. Its 3.5 inch disks are in AmigaDos format, and
> > regular floppy drives can't read them, only Amiga drives. I still have disks
> > that I'm probably never going to be able to read again.
> >
> Either a greaseweazle or a drawbridge can sort you out for reading those
> into an Amiga disk image file (.adf) or connect them directly to an
> emulated Amiga in WinUAE (or FS-UAE/vAmiga for Mac, or UAE/Amiberry for
> Linux)
>
> https://github.com/keirf/greaseweazle
> https://amiga.robsmithdev.co.uk/
>
> Some assembly may be required, but you can buy them pre-made too.

Cool! Thanks!

pt

On 2 Mar 2023 at 19:57:20 GMT, "petertrei@gmail.com"
<petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thursday, March 2, 2023 at 11:34:04 AM UTC-5, Jaimie Vandenbergh wrote:
>> On 2 Mar 2023 at 14:53:07 GMT, "pete...@gmail.com"
>> <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Even worse was the Amiga. Its 3.5 inch disks are in AmigaDos format, and
>>> regular floppy drives can't read them, only Amiga drives. I still have disks
>>> that I'm probably never going to be able to read again.
>>>
>> Either a greaseweazle or a drawbridge can sort you out for reading those
>> into an Amiga disk image file (.adf) or connect them directly to an
>> emulated Amiga in WinUAE (or FS-UAE/vAmiga for Mac, or UAE/Amiberry for
>> Linux)
>>
>> https://github.com/keirf/greaseweazle
>> https://amiga.robsmithdev.co.uk/
>>
>> Some assembly may be required, but you can buy them pre-made too.
>
> Cool! Thanks!
>
> pt

Minor correction, sorry: direct emulated support for these is limited to
WinUAE and Amiberry, as far as I can tell. Those combos will treat a PC
drive hooked up via one as an Amiga drive and read Amiga disks through
it.

Cheers - Jaimie
--
Sent from my Atari 400

On 3/2/2023 9:07 AM, Jay E. Morris wrote:
> On 3/2/2023 8:53 AM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Thursday, March 2, 2023 at 12:51:55 AM UTC-5, Quadibloc wrote:
>>> On Friday, October 14, 2022 at 2:34:52 PM UTC-6, The Horny Goat wrote:
>>>
>>>>> And the 5.25" format would, no doubt, have turned out to be
>>>>> Apple-specific. Which isn't unusual; my first computer (a NS Horizon)
>>>>> had its own format (well, two of them if you added CP/M).
>>>
>>>> Didn't know that about the North Star but the Apple II and CP/M used
>>>> different formats though Apple made a CP/M add on card that made the
>>>> II a "CP/M box". So far as I know I only used one CP/M application and
>>>> trashed it when Appleworks 1.0 came out.
>>> It's interesting that you mention the Apple _and_ North Star when
>>> discussing
>>> disk format incompatibilities. Because, while in those days, nearly
>>> every
>>> computer's disk format was incompatible with every other computer's disk
>>> format, *those* two were extreme outliers.
>>>
>>> Let's take the Apple II first. Most 5 1/4" floppies used a
>>> specialized integrated
>>> circuit that translated eight bits of data from the computer into ten
>>> bits which
>>> satisfied certain conditions to directly record on the disk.
>>> The Apple, having been made in the early days of microcomputers, didn't
>>> use that circuit - it was too expensive or hard to get. Instead,
>>> Wozniak's
>>> genius let them use standard TTL. Software split the data up into units
>>> of five or six bits (there were two distinct schemes used by Apple, the
>>> original one with five, and the improved one with six) and those were
>>> translated into units of eight bits, which could be recorded on the disk
>>> with a standard MSI part doing the work.
>>>
>>> North Star was an outlier in a completely different way. It was one of
>>> the few computers that used "hard sectored" disks. To some of those
>>> who read this, that phrase will bring a flood of circa 1977 memories
>>> flooding back.
>>> A normal floppy disk, in addition to the big hole in the center for the
>>> spindle, has one tiny hole in the magnetic surface, which is sensed
>>> photoelectrically, to indicate where the first sector of each track
>>> should
>>> start.
>>> A hard sectored disk, on the other hand, might have eight little holes,
>>> one for each sector, plus one extra hole to indicate which sector was
>>> first.
>>>
>>> So those were perhaps the two most incompatible disk formats in
>>> all computerdom!
>>
>> Even worse was the Amiga. Its 3.5 inch disks are in AmigaDos format, and
>> regular floppy drives can't read them, only Amiga drives. I still have
>> disks
>> that I'm probably never going to be able to read again.
>>
>> pt
>
> In a box, somewhere, I have about a dozen 8" PC floppies. I doubt that I
> will ever get that data off. Bigger question though is why the hell do I
> still have a dozen 8" disks lying about?

I have a Sun Sparc LX workstation upstairs in the office. It was last
booted in 2002 or so. I would like to start it up and pull a lot of
old source code off it that I never got around to moving to the PCs.
So, it just sits there as the disk drive was squealing the last time I
booted it up and I am fairly sure the next boot will kill it.

Lynn

On 3/2/2023 9:58 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Thu, 2 Mar 2023 09:07:06 -0600, "Jay E. Morris"
> <morrisj@epsilon3.comcon> wrote:
>
>> On 3/2/2023 8:53 AM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Thursday, March 2, 2023 at 12:51:55?AM UTC-5, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>> On Friday, October 14, 2022 at 2:34:52?PM UTC-6, The Horny Goat wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> And the 5.25" format would, no doubt, have turned out to be
>>>>>> Apple-specific. Which isn't unusual; my first computer (a NS Horizon)
>>>>>> had its own format (well, two of them if you added CP/M).
>>>>
>>>>> Didn't know that about the North Star but the Apple II and CP/M used
>>>>> different formats though Apple made a CP/M add on card that made the
>>>>> II a "CP/M box". So far as I know I only used one CP/M application and
>>>>> trashed it when Appleworks 1.0 came out.
>>>> It's interesting that you mention the Apple _and_ North Star when discussing
>>>> disk format incompatibilities. Because, while in those days, nearly every
>>>> computer's disk format was incompatible with every other computer's disk
>>>> format, *those* two were extreme outliers.
>>>>
>>>> Let's take the Apple II first. Most 5 1/4" floppies used a specialized integrated
>>>> circuit that translated eight bits of data from the computer into ten bits which
>>>> satisfied certain conditions to directly record on the disk.
>>>> The Apple, having been made in the early days of microcomputers, didn't
>>>> use that circuit - it was too expensive or hard to get. Instead, Wozniak's
>>>> genius let them use standard TTL. Software split the data up into units
>>>> of five or six bits (there were two distinct schemes used by Apple, the
>>>> original one with five, and the improved one with six) and those were
>>>> translated into units of eight bits, which could be recorded on the disk
>>>> with a standard MSI part doing the work.
>>>>
>>>> North Star was an outlier in a completely different way. It was one of
>>>> the few computers that used "hard sectored" disks. To some of those
>>>> who read this, that phrase will bring a flood of circa 1977 memories
>>>> flooding back.
>>>> A normal floppy disk, in addition to the big hole in the center for the
>>>> spindle, has one tiny hole in the magnetic surface, which is sensed
>>>> photoelectrically, to indicate where the first sector of each track should
>>>> start.
>>>> A hard sectored disk, on the other hand, might have eight little holes,
>>>> one for each sector, plus one extra hole to indicate which sector was
>>>> first.
>>>>
>>>> So those were perhaps the two most incompatible disk formats in
>>>> all computerdom!
>>>
>>> Even worse was the Amiga. Its 3.5 inch disks are in AmigaDos format, and
>>> regular floppy drives can't read them, only Amiga drives. I still have disks
>>> that I'm probably never going to be able to read again.
>>>
>>> pt
>>
>> In a box, somewhere, I have about a dozen 8" PC floppies. I doubt that I
>> will ever get that data off. Bigger question though is why the hell do I
>> still have a dozen 8" disks lying about?
>
> I found an external 3.5" USB-pluggable "floppy" drive on
> [https://www.floppydisk.com/]. Whether they have 8" floppy drives I
> have no idea.
>
Geez, the company I worked for in the late 1980's had an extremely hard
time finding 8" floppy drives, working or otherwise, for our
mini-mainframe. Any time we _heard_ of one possibly being available we
would try to buy it. For parts to repair our existing ones if nothing else.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On 3/2/2023 10:19 AM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, March 2, 2023 at 10:07:13 AM UTC-5, Jay E. Morris wrote:
>> On 3/2/2023 8:53 AM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Thursday, March 2, 2023 at 12:51:55 AM UTC-5, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>> On Friday, October 14, 2022 at 2:34:52 PM UTC-6, The Horny Goat wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> And the 5.25" format would, no doubt, have turned out to be
>>>>>> Apple-specific. Which isn't unusual; my first computer (a NS Horizon)
>>>>>> had its own format (well, two of them if you added CP/M).
>>>>
>>>>> Didn't know that about the North Star but the Apple II and CP/M used
>>>>> different formats though Apple made a CP/M add on card that made the
>>>>> II a "CP/M box". So far as I know I only used one CP/M application and
>>>>> trashed it when Appleworks 1.0 came out.
>>>> It's interesting that you mention the Apple _and_ North Star when discussing
>>>> disk format incompatibilities. Because, while in those days, nearly every
>>>> computer's disk format was incompatible with every other computer's disk
>>>> format, *those* two were extreme outliers.
>>>>
>>>> Let's take the Apple II first. Most 5 1/4" floppies used a specialized integrated
>>>> circuit that translated eight bits of data from the computer into ten bits which
>>>> satisfied certain conditions to directly record on the disk.
>>>> The Apple, having been made in the early days of microcomputers, didn't
>>>> use that circuit - it was too expensive or hard to get. Instead, Wozniak's
>>>> genius let them use standard TTL. Software split the data up into units
>>>> of five or six bits (there were two distinct schemes used by Apple, the
>>>> original one with five, and the improved one with six) and those were
>>>> translated into units of eight bits, which could be recorded on the disk
>>>> with a standard MSI part doing the work.
>>>>
>>>> North Star was an outlier in a completely different way. It was one of
>>>> the few computers that used "hard sectored" disks. To some of those
>>>> who read this, that phrase will bring a flood of circa 1977 memories
>>>> flooding back.
>>>> A normal floppy disk, in addition to the big hole in the center for the
>>>> spindle, has one tiny hole in the magnetic surface, which is sensed
>>>> photoelectrically, to indicate where the first sector of each track should
>>>> start.
>>>> A hard sectored disk, on the other hand, might have eight little holes,
>>>> one for each sector, plus one extra hole to indicate which sector was
>>>> first.
>>>>
>>>> So those were perhaps the two most incompatible disk formats in
>>>> all computerdom!
>>>
>>> Even worse was the Amiga. Its 3.5 inch disks are in AmigaDos format, and
>>> regular floppy drives can't read them, only Amiga drives. I still have disks
>>> that I'm probably never going to be able to read again.
>>>
>>> pt
>> In a box, somewhere, I have about a dozen 8" PC floppies. I doubt that I
>> will ever get that data off. Bigger question though is why the hell do I
>> still have a dozen 8" disks lying about?
>
> Ditto. I expect I also have a DECTape, and a TK70 tape cartridge somewhere.
> I'm pretty sure I threw out all my card decks 20 years ago.
>
> pt

I have a few DECTapes lying about. For a while I was removing the
innards and installing a digital (pun intended) clock in them. Haven't
done that for a while though.

On 3/2/2023 11:58 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Thu, 2 Mar 2023 09:07:06 -0600, "Jay E. Morris"
> <morrisj@epsilon3.comcon> wrote:
>
>> On 3/2/2023 8:53 AM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Thursday, March 2, 2023 at 12:51:55?AM UTC-5, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>> On Friday, October 14, 2022 at 2:34:52?PM UTC-6, The Horny Goat wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> And the 5.25" format would, no doubt, have turned out to be
>>>>>> Apple-specific. Which isn't unusual; my first computer (a NS Horizon)
>>>>>> had its own format (well, two of them if you added CP/M).
>>>>
>>>>> Didn't know that about the North Star but the Apple II and CP/M used
>>>>> different formats though Apple made a CP/M add on card that made the
>>>>> II a "CP/M box". So far as I know I only used one CP/M application and
>>>>> trashed it when Appleworks 1.0 came out.
>>>> It's interesting that you mention the Apple _and_ North Star when discussing
>>>> disk format incompatibilities. Because, while in those days, nearly every
>>>> computer's disk format was incompatible with every other computer's disk
>>>> format, *those* two were extreme outliers.
>>>>
>>>> Let's take the Apple II first. Most 5 1/4" floppies used a specialized integrated
>>>> circuit that translated eight bits of data from the computer into ten bits which
>>>> satisfied certain conditions to directly record on the disk.
>>>> The Apple, having been made in the early days of microcomputers, didn't
>>>> use that circuit - it was too expensive or hard to get. Instead, Wozniak's
>>>> genius let them use standard TTL. Software split the data up into units
>>>> of five or six bits (there were two distinct schemes used by Apple, the
>>>> original one with five, and the improved one with six) and those were
>>>> translated into units of eight bits, which could be recorded on the disk
>>>> with a standard MSI part doing the work.
>>>>
>>>> North Star was an outlier in a completely different way. It was one of
>>>> the few computers that used "hard sectored" disks. To some of those
>>>> who read this, that phrase will bring a flood of circa 1977 memories
>>>> flooding back.
>>>> A normal floppy disk, in addition to the big hole in the center for the
>>>> spindle, has one tiny hole in the magnetic surface, which is sensed
>>>> photoelectrically, to indicate where the first sector of each track should
>>>> start.
>>>> A hard sectored disk, on the other hand, might have eight little holes,
>>>> one for each sector, plus one extra hole to indicate which sector was
>>>> first.
>>>>
>>>> So those were perhaps the two most incompatible disk formats in
>>>> all computerdom!
>>>
>>> Even worse was the Amiga. Its 3.5 inch disks are in AmigaDos format, and
>>> regular floppy drives can't read them, only Amiga drives. I still have disks
>>> that I'm probably never going to be able to read again.
>>>
>>> pt
>>
>> In a box, somewhere, I have about a dozen 8" PC floppies. I doubt that I
>> will ever get that data off. Bigger question though is why the hell do I
>> still have a dozen 8" disks lying about?
>
> I found an external 3.5" USB-pluggable "floppy" drive on
> [https://www.floppydisk.com/]. Whether they have 8" floppy drives I
> have no idea.
>
> Oh, and it /worked/. I now have images of the 3.5" "floppy" discs
> stored online. I even installed Windows 3.1 from the images under
> DOSBox!

Yes, have both 5.25 and 3.5 externals. And USB interfaces for most types
of hard drives.

On Thu, 2 Mar 2023 19:06:16 -0600, "Jay E. Morris"
<morrisj@epsilon3.comcon> wrote:

>On 3/2/2023 11:58 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Thu, 2 Mar 2023 09:07:06 -0600, "Jay E. Morris"
>> <morrisj@epsilon3.comcon> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/2/2023 8:53 AM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Thursday, March 2, 2023 at 12:51:55?AM UTC-5, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, October 14, 2022 at 2:34:52?PM UTC-6, The Horny Goat wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> And the 5.25" format would, no doubt, have turned out to be
>>>>>>> Apple-specific. Which isn't unusual; my first computer (a NS Horizon)
>>>>>>> had its own format (well, two of them if you added CP/M).
>>>>>
>>>>>> Didn't know that about the North Star but the Apple II and CP/M used
>>>>>> different formats though Apple made a CP/M add on card that made the
>>>>>> II a "CP/M box". So far as I know I only used one CP/M application and
>>>>>> trashed it when Appleworks 1.0 came out.
>>>>> It's interesting that you mention the Apple _and_ North Star when discussing
>>>>> disk format incompatibilities. Because, while in those days, nearly every
>>>>> computer's disk format was incompatible with every other computer's disk
>>>>> format, *those* two were extreme outliers.
>>>>>
>>>>> Let's take the Apple II first. Most 5 1/4" floppies used a specialized integrated
>>>>> circuit that translated eight bits of data from the computer into ten bits which
>>>>> satisfied certain conditions to directly record on the disk.
>>>>> The Apple, having been made in the early days of microcomputers, didn't
>>>>> use that circuit - it was too expensive or hard to get. Instead, Wozniak's
>>>>> genius let them use standard TTL. Software split the data up into units
>>>>> of five or six bits (there were two distinct schemes used by Apple, the
>>>>> original one with five, and the improved one with six) and those were
>>>>> translated into units of eight bits, which could be recorded on the disk
>>>>> with a standard MSI part doing the work.
>>>>>
>>>>> North Star was an outlier in a completely different way. It was one of
>>>>> the few computers that used "hard sectored" disks. To some of those
>>>>> who read this, that phrase will bring a flood of circa 1977 memories
>>>>> flooding back.
>>>>> A normal floppy disk, in addition to the big hole in the center for the
>>>>> spindle, has one tiny hole in the magnetic surface, which is sensed
>>>>> photoelectrically, to indicate where the first sector of each track should
>>>>> start.
>>>>> A hard sectored disk, on the other hand, might have eight little holes,
>>>>> one for each sector, plus one extra hole to indicate which sector was
>>>>> first.
>>>>>
>>>>> So those were perhaps the two most incompatible disk formats in
>>>>> all computerdom!
>>>>
>>>> Even worse was the Amiga. Its 3.5 inch disks are in AmigaDos format, and
>>>> regular floppy drives can't read them, only Amiga drives. I still have disks
>>>> that I'm probably never going to be able to read again.
>>>>
>>>> pt
>>>
>>> In a box, somewhere, I have about a dozen 8" PC floppies. I doubt that I
>>> will ever get that data off. Bigger question though is why the hell do I
>>> still have a dozen 8" disks lying about?
>>
>> I found an external 3.5" USB-pluggable "floppy" drive on
>> [https://www.floppydisk.com/]. Whether they have 8" floppy drives I
>> have no idea.
>>
>> Oh, and it /worked/. I now have images of the 3.5" "floppy" discs
>> stored online. I even installed Windows 3.1 from the images under
>> DOSBox!
>
>Yes, have both 5.25 and 3.5 externals. And USB interfaces for most types
>of hard drives.

I should, perhaps, provide a few more details:

I bought a refurbished drive, saving a few bucks, figuring it would
work long enough to copy the "floppy" disc into directories on my
computer.

What I got was a Dell FDDM-101. This is /exactly/ the sort of thing
made to plug into your computer if it has the proper connections. The
socket needed for that was still present on the drive.

It was wrapped (on the four edges) in a plastic (I think) sleeve that
contained the USB interface. IOW, no external case, and dropping it
would be likely to cause damage. Not, I should think, the sort of
thing you would want to carry about with you.

As to copying the files: a few would not copy when I tried to copy all
of them at once, but those did copy when I copied them individually.
So you do have to pay attention to what you are getting on the hard
drive.

As to availability -- I suspect there are quite a few of these drives
out there, long since considered outmoded, that can be fitted up this
way. Whether any are being manufactured seems doubtful, although my HP
Envy (purchased in 2014) does appear to have a bezel which might be
covering a drive bay. Of course, 2014 is a long time back in terms of
computers.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

On 3/2/23 07:07, Jay E. Morris wrote:
> On 3/2/2023 8:53 AM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Thursday, March 2, 2023 at 12:51:55 AM UTC-5, Quadibloc wrote:

[stuff deleted]

>>
>> Even worse was the Amiga. Its 3.5 inch disks are in AmigaDos format, and
>> regular floppy drives can't read them, only Amiga drives. I still have
>> disks
>> that I'm probably never going to be able to read again.
>>
>> pt
>
> In a box, somewhere, I have about a dozen 8" PC floppies. I doubt that I
> will ever get that data off. Bigger question though is why the hell do I
> still have a dozen 8" disks lying about?

I recently threw away my Zip disks. I got rid of the drive years ago. Of
course, just in case, I smashed the disks and made them unreadable.
--
Dave Scruggs
Captain, Boulder Creek Fire (Retired)
Sr. Software Engineer (Retired, mostly)

On 3/3/2023 12:59 PM, BCFD36 wrote:
> On 3/2/23 07:07, Jay E. Morris wrote:
>> On 3/2/2023 8:53 AM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Thursday, March 2, 2023 at 12:51:55 AM UTC-5, Quadibloc wrote:
>
> [stuff deleted]
>
>>>
>>> Even worse was the Amiga. Its 3.5 inch disks are in AmigaDos format, and
>>> regular floppy drives can't read them, only Amiga drives. I still
>>> have disks
>>> that I'm probably never going to be able to read again.
>>>
>>> pt
>>
>> In a box, somewhere, I have about a dozen 8" PC floppies. I doubt that
>> I will ever get that data off. Bigger question though is why the hell
>> do I still have a dozen 8" disks lying about?
>
> I recently threw away my Zip disks. I got rid of the drive years ago. Of
> course, just in case, I smashed the disks and made them unreadable.

Yeah, still got mine, and two drives. I really do need to start the
Swedish death cleaning.

On 3/03/23 03:53, pete...@gmail.com wrote:

>
> Even worse was the Amiga. Its 3.5 inch disks are in AmigaDos format, and
> regular floppy drives can't read them, only Amiga drives. I still have disks
> that I'm probably never going to be able to read again.

As a hoarder of such things, I still have an Amiga though it hasn't been
plugged in for many years. It was used for games and music composition
(of dubious quality).

David Johnston wrote:

>On 2022-10-05 12:29 a.m., Default User wrote:

>>This is an e-book from the library, so it's not like it cost any
>>money. Still, I haven't had this happen in quite some time and
>>it's a bit disappointing when you think you've good a book full of
>>stuff you like, but find out it's stuff you liked.
>>
>
>It's a very generic anthology title. Such things that can lead to
>confusion.

Yes, the title wouldn't tip me off. I've read at least one other
anthology with the title.

Brian