Rocksolid Light

Welcome to novaBBS (click a section below)

mail  files  register  newsreader  groups  login

Message-ID:  

My theology, briefly, is that the universe was dictated but not signed. -- Christopher Morley


arts / rec.arts.sf.written / Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

SubjectAuthor
* What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?pete...@gmail.com
+* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Scott Lurndal
|`* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan
| `- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan
+- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?artyw2@yahoo.com
+- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?James Nicoll
+* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Andrew McDowell
|`* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Paul S Person
| +- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Dorothy J Heydt
| `- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Andrew McDowell
+* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Quadibloc
|`* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Robert Carnegie
| `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?William Hyde
|  `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
|   `- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?William Hyde
+* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
|`* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?William Hyde
| `- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan
+* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?David Johnston
|`* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Scott Lurndal
| +* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?James Nicoll
| |`* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?pete...@gmail.com
| | +* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Dimensional Traveler
| | |+- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?pete...@gmail.com
| | |`* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Paul S Person
| | | +- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Dimensional Traveler
| | | +* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?pete...@gmail.com
| | | |`* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Paul S Person
| | | | +* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Scott Lurndal
| | | | |+* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?pete...@gmail.com
| | | | ||+- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Dimensional Traveler
| | | | ||`- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Paul S Person
| | | | |+- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
| | | | |`* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Paul S Person
| | | | | +* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?pete...@gmail.com
| | | | | |`- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Paul S Person
| | | | | +- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?The Horny Goat
| | | | | +* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Jay E. Morris
| | | | | |`* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Paul S Person
| | | | | | +- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
| | | | | | `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?The Horny Goat
| | | | | |  `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Scott Lurndal
| | | | | |   `- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?The Horny Goat
| | | | | `- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
| | | | `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Dimensional Traveler
| | | |  `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Paul S Person
| | | |   `- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?pete...@gmail.com
| | | `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?pete...@gmail.com
| | |  `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Paul S Person
| | |   +* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Robert Woodward
| | |   |`- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Paul S Person
| | |   `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?pete...@gmail.com
| | |    `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Scott Lurndal
| | |     `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
| | |      +* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Scott Lurndal
| | |      |+* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Paul S Person
| | |      ||`* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?James Nicoll
| | |      || `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
| | |      ||  `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?William Hyde
| | |      ||   `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
| | |      ||    `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?William Hyde
| | |      ||     +- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Paul S Person
| | |      ||     `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
| | |      ||      +* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Scott Lurndal
| | |      ||      |+* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Paul S Person
| | |      ||      ||`- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
| | |      ||      |+* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Dimensional Traveler
| | |      ||      ||`* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?rkshullat
| | |      ||      || `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
| | |      ||      ||  `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Dimensional Traveler
| | |      ||      ||   +* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Paul S Person
| | |      ||      ||   |+* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Dimensional Traveler
| | |      ||      ||   ||+* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Dorothy J Heydt
| | |      ||      ||   |||+- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Dimensional Traveler
| | |      ||      ||   |||`- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
| | |      ||      ||   ||`* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
| | |      ||      ||   || `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?pete...@gmail.com
| | |      ||      ||   ||  +* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
| | |      ||      ||   ||  |`* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?pete...@gmail.com
| | |      ||      ||   ||  | `- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Dimensional Traveler
| | |      ||      ||   ||  `- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
| | |      ||      ||   |`* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?pete...@gmail.com
| | |      ||      ||   | +- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
| | |      ||      ||   | `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Paul S Person
| | |      ||      ||   |  `- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
| | |      ||      ||   `- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Jay E. Morris
| | |      ||      |`- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
| | |      ||      `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?William Hyde
| | |      ||       `- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
| | |      |`- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Dimensional Traveler
| | |      `- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?WolfFan
| | +* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?James Nicoll
| | |`- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lenona
| | +- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Robert Carnegie
| | `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Joy Beeson
| |  `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Magewolf
| |   `- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Dimensional Traveler
| `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?David Johnston
|  `- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Scott Lurndal
`- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lee Gleason

Pages:1234
Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

<97fh0iham6htg66tsihhljlrgnf9svlcvj@4ax.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=86047&group=rec.arts.sf.written#86047

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader01.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: psper...@old.netcom.invalid (Paul S Person)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 09:34:56 -0800
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 60
Message-ID: <97fh0iham6htg66tsihhljlrgnf9svlcvj@4ax.com>
References: <785b72aa-ac87-42da-9b87-510dee6db0b5n@googlegroups.com> <tu62ru$4l04$1@dont-email.me> <xgINL.250158$Olad.132666@fx35.iad> <tu7mt7$799$1@reader2.panix.com> <5d2b9e9d-2289-44cd-a1fe-0630968d0439n@googlegroups.com> <tu7rqt$g147$2@dont-email.me>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Injection-Info: reader01.eternal-september.org; posting-host="37ee0d103a3a6aa0801c2009443420cc";
logging-data="1078881"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1/LQg/32RPvRWnE5FRGNzG/pEIKM0d6eOw="
User-Agent: ForteAgent/8.00.32.1272
Cancel-Lock: sha1:p/DU+nTTRYI92SSPtMlCuSuOu4U=
 by: Paul S Person - Wed, 8 Mar 2023 17:34 UTC

On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 09:21:34 -0800, Dimensional Traveler
<dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:

>On 3/7/2023 9:08 AM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Tuesday, March 7, 2023 at 10:57:31?AM UTC-5, James Nicoll wrote:
>>> Apparently it's steam engine time for this issue: the Long Now
>>> just had a piece:
>>>
>>> https://longnow.org/ideas/the-heresy-of-decline/
>>
>> A pretty decent article, which handily mentions James'
>> own 2018 contribution to the field, without him having to
>> blow his own horn:
>>
>> https://www.tor.com/2018/06/11/why-are-there-so-few-sff-books-about-the-very-real-issue-of-population-decline/
>>
>>> As a consequence of which, I just checked to see if my prefered
>>> academic library has a copy of the _first_ edition of The Population
>>> Bomb... which it does.
>>>
>>> It seems to me, though, that most demographic issues can be addressed
>>> by significantly curtailing Savard's civil liberties on flimsy
>>> pretexts.
>>
>> Are there ways to make having kids a much more viable and desirable
>> choice than it is today?
>>
>At this point I am feeling an overwhelming need to point out that one of
>the American states has a local legislator proposing a bill to reduce a
>married, heterosexual couple's property taxes by 10% for each
>non-adopted child they have.

Given how property tax works, I don't think that's even possible.

But I don't have to worry about that. Our State Constitution is quite
clear: taxes must be the same rate for all taxed entities in a given
taxing district.

Which is why we don't have an Income Tax: it couldn't have different
rates for different income levels, so what's the point?

>Given that the legislator in question is a right-wing nutjob I believe
>he is also trying to include language to restrict that to WASP couples,
>no interracial couples need apply.

The reason for suspecting that is obvious, but proof would be better.

And, anyway, the nuttier the Republicans get, the more "voter fraud"
they will have to endure.

"Voter fraud", of course, in the /Republican/ sense: voting for
Democrats.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

<tub0t5$13o7k$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=86065&group=rec.arts.sf.written#86065

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader01.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: dtra...@sonic.net (Dimensional Traveler)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2023 14:06:31 -0800
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <tub0t5$13o7k$1@dont-email.me>
References: <785b72aa-ac87-42da-9b87-510dee6db0b5n@googlegroups.com>
<tu62ru$4l04$1@dont-email.me> <xgINL.250158$Olad.132666@fx35.iad>
<tu7mt7$799$1@reader2.panix.com>
<5d2b9e9d-2289-44cd-a1fe-0630968d0439n@googlegroups.com>
<tu7rqt$g147$2@dont-email.me> <97fh0iham6htg66tsihhljlrgnf9svlcvj@4ax.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2023 22:06:29 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader01.eternal-september.org; posting-host="c8f509897a3b6d3d29c749525128c24b";
logging-data="1171700"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX18h2Hr3pB1EQ4GN4ziX8eBs"
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/102.8.0
Cancel-Lock: sha1:V24M+4Rj74Oue5C98YYh1uvt5sM=
In-Reply-To: <97fh0iham6htg66tsihhljlrgnf9svlcvj@4ax.com>
Content-Language: en-US
 by: Dimensional Traveler - Wed, 8 Mar 2023 22:06 UTC

On 3/8/2023 9:34 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 09:21:34 -0800, Dimensional Traveler
> <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>
>> On 3/7/2023 9:08 AM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, March 7, 2023 at 10:57:31?AM UTC-5, James Nicoll wrote:
>>>> Apparently it's steam engine time for this issue: the Long Now
>>>> just had a piece:
>>>>
>>>> https://longnow.org/ideas/the-heresy-of-decline/
>>>
>>> A pretty decent article, which handily mentions James'
>>> own 2018 contribution to the field, without him having to
>>> blow his own horn:
>>>
>>> https://www.tor.com/2018/06/11/why-are-there-so-few-sff-books-about-the-very-real-issue-of-population-decline/
>>>
>>>> As a consequence of which, I just checked to see if my prefered
>>>> academic library has a copy of the _first_ edition of The Population
>>>> Bomb... which it does.
>>>>
>>>> It seems to me, though, that most demographic issues can be addressed
>>>> by significantly curtailing Savard's civil liberties on flimsy
>>>> pretexts.
>>>
>>> Are there ways to make having kids a much more viable and desirable
>>> choice than it is today?
>>>
>> At this point I am feeling an overwhelming need to point out that one of
>> the American states has a local legislator proposing a bill to reduce a
>> married, heterosexual couple's property taxes by 10% for each
>> non-adopted child they have.
>
> Given how property tax works, I don't think that's even possible.
>
> But I don't have to worry about that. Our State Constitution is quite
> clear: taxes must be the same rate for all taxed entities in a given
> taxing district.
>
> Which is why we don't have an Income Tax: it couldn't have different
> rates for different income levels, so what's the point?
>
>> Given that the legislator in question is a right-wing nutjob I believe
>> he is also trying to include language to restrict that to WASP couples,
>> no interracial couples need apply.
>
> The reason for suspecting that is obvious, but proof would be better.
>
I did say "I believe" as in I wasn't sure. The original article I read
may have had information on that but I don't remember.

> And, anyway, the nuttier the Republicans get, the more "voter fraud"
> they will have to endure.
>
> "Voter fraud", of course, in the /Republican/ sense: voting for
> Democrats.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

<tubhlt$194lv$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=86075&group=rec.arts.sf.written#86075

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader01.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: davidjoh...@yahoo.com (David Johnston)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2023 19:52:45 -0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <tubhlt$194lv$1@dont-email.me>
References: <785b72aa-ac87-42da-9b87-510dee6db0b5n@googlegroups.com>
<tu62ru$4l04$1@dont-email.me> <xgINL.250158$Olad.132666@fx35.iad>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2023 02:52:45 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader01.eternal-september.org; posting-host="72b24e3fb1627ce62f06ef68cb312402";
logging-data="1348287"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1+OR08IXPJ9x+UmRifixg+SQ/JTQXd33wo="
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/102.8.0
Cancel-Lock: sha1:zBhrkhn/YE85myFsHo0egeY+Oz4=
X-Antivirus: Avast (VPS 230308-2, 3/8/2023), Outbound message
Content-Language: en-US
X-Antivirus-Status: Clean
In-Reply-To: <xgINL.250158$Olad.132666@fx35.iad>
 by: David Johnston - Thu, 9 Mar 2023 02:52 UTC

On 2023-03-07 7:56 a.m., Scott Lurndal wrote:
> David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> writes:
>> On 2023-03-06 11:06 a.m., pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> We've had a ton of books over the past 50 years dealing with
>>> overpopulation.
>>>
>>> We've also had a ton of books where the human race gets killed off
>>> real good, whether by meteors, hungry aliens, infertility/disease,
>>> zombies or nuclear war. Most stories (not all) end with a few
>>> viewpoint humans left, often with an implication that they will
>>> repopulate the Earth.
>>>
>>> We're now looking at a new threat: demographic collapse. We aren't
>>> having enough babies[1]. Quite aside from the economic burden of a
>>> shrinking working population supporting a massive overhang of
>>> elderly over the next few decades, we have fewer and fewer people
>>> entering parental age. Like overpopulation, this feeds back on
>>> itself.
>>>
>>> Have any stories dealt with trying to reverse this?
>>>
>>> pt
>>>
>>> [1] Yes, I know sub saharan Africa and a few other countries don't
>>> have this problem, but we're in an SF group - I can specify the
>>> parameters.
>>
>> Demographic decline to human extinction is a feature in a several of
>> several science fiction manga reflecting the fact that it looks like the
>> Japanese population will be reduced to less than half by the end of the
>> century. But I've only seen one where anyone is trying to fight it.
>>
>> Marry Me!
>>
>>> Civil servant Sinn gets a huge surprise on his 29th birthday when he
>>> is chosen as the first subject of an experimental new law to marry
>>> someone he's never met. His marriage partner is Mari, a recluse who
>>> has yet to experience the small joys of life. Now the two must
>>> navigate their relationship as a married couple, all while proving --
>>> or disproving -- that the law will benefit the greater good of
>>> society.
>>
>> It is sweet but dull. Also not really science fiction.
>>
>> Similarly Clifford Simak had his own gentle extinction of humanity but
>> no stories about trying to fight it.
>
> How about when NYC Mayor Amalfi pressed the restart button?
>

The Judge Dredd character? I don't recall demographic collapse being
one of Mega City One's many problems.

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

<9bmOL.197573$rKDc.133520@fx34.iad>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=86082&group=rec.arts.sf.written#86082

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.blueworldhosting.com!feed1.usenet.blueworldhosting.com!peer03.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!fx34.iad.POSTED!not-for-mail
X-newsreader: xrn 9.03-beta-14-64bit
Sender: scott@dragon.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
From: sco...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
Reply-To: slp53@pacbell.net
Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
References: <785b72aa-ac87-42da-9b87-510dee6db0b5n@googlegroups.com> <tu62ru$4l04$1@dont-email.me> <xgINL.250158$Olad.132666@fx35.iad> <tubhlt$194lv$1@dont-email.me>
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <9bmOL.197573$rKDc.133520@fx34.iad>
X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 14:37:57 UTC
Organization: UsenetServer - www.usenetserver.com
Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 14:37:57 GMT
X-Received-Bytes: 3214
 by: Scott Lurndal - Thu, 9 Mar 2023 14:37 UTC

David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> writes:
>On 2023-03-07 7:56 a.m., Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> writes:
>>> On 2023-03-06 11:06 a.m., pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> We've had a ton of books over the past 50 years dealing with
>>>> overpopulation.
>>>>
>>>> We've also had a ton of books where the human race gets killed off
>>>> real good, whether by meteors, hungry aliens, infertility/disease,
>>>> zombies or nuclear war. Most stories (not all) end with a few
>>>> viewpoint humans left, often with an implication that they will
>>>> repopulate the Earth.
>>>>
>>>> We're now looking at a new threat: demographic collapse. We aren't
>>>> having enough babies[1]. Quite aside from the economic burden of a
>>>> shrinking working population supporting a massive overhang of
>>>> elderly over the next few decades, we have fewer and fewer people
>>>> entering parental age. Like overpopulation, this feeds back on
>>>> itself.
>>>>
>>>> Have any stories dealt with trying to reverse this?
>>>>
>>>> pt
>>>>
>>>> [1] Yes, I know sub saharan Africa and a few other countries don't
>>>> have this problem, but we're in an SF group - I can specify the
>>>> parameters.
>>>
>>> Demographic decline to human extinction is a feature in a several of
>>> several science fiction manga reflecting the fact that it looks like the
>>> Japanese population will be reduced to less than half by the end of the
>>> century. But I've only seen one where anyone is trying to fight it.
>>>
>>> Marry Me!
>>>
>>>> Civil servant Sinn gets a huge surprise on his 29th birthday when he
>>>> is chosen as the first subject of an experimental new law to marry
>>>> someone he's never met. His marriage partner is Mari, a recluse who
>>>> has yet to experience the small joys of life. Now the two must
>>>> navigate their relationship as a married couple, all while proving --
>>>> or disproving -- that the law will benefit the greater good of
>>>> society.
>>>
>>> It is sweet but dull. Also not really science fiction.
>>>
>>> Similarly Clifford Simak had his own gentle extinction of humanity but
>>> no stories about trying to fight it.
>>
>> How about when NYC Mayor Amalfi pressed the restart button?
>>
>
>The Judge Dredd character? I don't recall demographic collapse being
>one of Mega City One's many problems.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cities_in_Flight#A_Clash_of_Cymbals/The_Triumph_of_Time

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

<6416d319-3a05-4bc8-ba5b-438fb7b12a9fn@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=86083&group=rec.arts.sf.written#86083

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:ce4:b0:73b:a941:7206 with SMTP id c4-20020a05620a0ce400b0073ba9417206mr6411844qkj.7.1678375208388;
Thu, 09 Mar 2023 07:20:08 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 2002:a9d:7209:0:b0:68b:cbcf:c24b with SMTP id
u9-20020a9d7209000000b0068bcbcfc24bmr6969741otj.4.1678375208040; Thu, 09 Mar
2023 07:20:08 -0800 (PST)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!proxad.net!feeder1-2.proxad.net!209.85.160.216.MISMATCH!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2023 07:20:07 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <97fh0iham6htg66tsihhljlrgnf9svlcvj@4ax.com>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=136.226.18.47; posting-account=BUItcQoAAACgV97n05UTyfLcl1Rd4W33
NNTP-Posting-Host: 136.226.18.47
References: <785b72aa-ac87-42da-9b87-510dee6db0b5n@googlegroups.com>
<tu62ru$4l04$1@dont-email.me> <xgINL.250158$Olad.132666@fx35.iad>
<tu7mt7$799$1@reader2.panix.com> <5d2b9e9d-2289-44cd-a1fe-0630968d0439n@googlegroups.com>
<tu7rqt$g147$2@dont-email.me> <97fh0iham6htg66tsihhljlrgnf9svlcvj@4ax.com>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <6416d319-3a05-4bc8-ba5b-438fb7b12a9fn@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
From: petert...@gmail.com (pete...@gmail.com)
Injection-Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 15:20:08 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 by: pete...@gmail.com - Thu, 9 Mar 2023 15:20 UTC

On Wednesday, March 8, 2023 at 12:35:13 PM UTC-5, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 09:21:34 -0800, Dimensional Traveler
> <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
>
> >On 3/7/2023 9:08 AM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Tuesday, March 7, 2023 at 10:57:31?AM UTC-5, James Nicoll wrote:
> >>> Apparently it's steam engine time for this issue: the Long Now
> >>> just had a piece:
> >>>
> >>> https://longnow.org/ideas/the-heresy-of-decline/
> >>
> >> A pretty decent article, which handily mentions James'
> >> own 2018 contribution to the field, without him having to
> >> blow his own horn:
> >>
> >> https://www.tor.com/2018/06/11/why-are-there-so-few-sff-books-about-the-very-real-issue-of-population-decline/
> >>
> >>> As a consequence of which, I just checked to see if my prefered
> >>> academic library has a copy of the _first_ edition of The Population
> >>> Bomb... which it does.
> >>>
> >>> It seems to me, though, that most demographic issues can be addressed
> >>> by significantly curtailing Savard's civil liberties on flimsy
> >>> pretexts.
> >>
> >> Are there ways to make having kids a much more viable and desirable
> >> choice than it is today?
> >>
> >At this point I am feeling an overwhelming need to point out that one of
> >the American states has a local legislator proposing a bill to reduce a
> >married, heterosexual couple's property taxes by 10% for each
> >non-adopted child they have.
> Given how property tax works, I don't think that's even possible.
>
> But I don't have to worry about that. Our State Constitution is quite
> clear: taxes must be the same rate for all taxed entities in a given
> taxing district.
>
> Which is why we don't have an Income Tax: it couldn't have different
> rates for different income levels, so what's the point?
> >Given that the legislator in question is a right-wing nutjob I believe
> >he is also trying to include language to restrict that to WASP couples,
> >no interracial couples need apply.
> The reason for suspecting that is obvious, but proof would be better.

White households that own their dwelling: 74%
Black households that own their dwelling: 44%

When does 'overwhelming evidence' become 'proof'?

pt

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

<2697fc32-33f0-493b-98d4-a726831c1ea3n@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=86084&group=rec.arts.sf.written#86084

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6214:963:b0:56e:af7f:95be with SMTP id do3-20020a056214096300b0056eaf7f95bemr5693850qvb.8.1678376244825;
Thu, 09 Mar 2023 07:37:24 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:8d7:b0:384:65af:e554 with SMTP id
k23-20020a05680808d700b0038465afe554mr7515830oij.1.1678376244411; Thu, 09 Mar
2023 07:37:24 -0800 (PST)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!news.uzoreto.com!peer03.ams4!peer.am4.highwinds-media.com!peer01.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2023 07:37:24 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <97fh0iham6htg66tsihhljlrgnf9svlcvj@4ax.com>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=136.226.18.47; posting-account=BUItcQoAAACgV97n05UTyfLcl1Rd4W33
NNTP-Posting-Host: 136.226.18.47
References: <785b72aa-ac87-42da-9b87-510dee6db0b5n@googlegroups.com>
<tu62ru$4l04$1@dont-email.me> <xgINL.250158$Olad.132666@fx35.iad>
<tu7mt7$799$1@reader2.panix.com> <5d2b9e9d-2289-44cd-a1fe-0630968d0439n@googlegroups.com>
<tu7rqt$g147$2@dont-email.me> <97fh0iham6htg66tsihhljlrgnf9svlcvj@4ax.com>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <2697fc32-33f0-493b-98d4-a726831c1ea3n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
From: petert...@gmail.com (pete...@gmail.com)
Injection-Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 15:37:24 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Received-Bytes: 3773
 by: pete...@gmail.com - Thu, 9 Mar 2023 15:37 UTC

On Wednesday, March 8, 2023 at 12:35:13 PM UTC-5, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 09:21:34 -0800, Dimensional Traveler
> <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
>
> >On 3/7/2023 9:08 AM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Tuesday, March 7, 2023 at 10:57:31?AM UTC-5, James Nicoll wrote:
> >>> Apparently it's steam engine time for this issue: the Long Now
> >>> just had a piece:
> >>>
> >>> https://longnow.org/ideas/the-heresy-of-decline/
> >>
> >> A pretty decent article, which handily mentions James'
> >> own 2018 contribution to the field, without him having to
> >> blow his own horn:
> >>
> >> https://www.tor.com/2018/06/11/why-are-there-so-few-sff-books-about-the-very-real-issue-of-population-decline/
> >>
> >>> As a consequence of which, I just checked to see if my prefered
> >>> academic library has a copy of the _first_ edition of The Population
> >>> Bomb... which it does.
> >>>
> >>> It seems to me, though, that most demographic issues can be addressed
> >>> by significantly curtailing Savard's civil liberties on flimsy
> >>> pretexts.
> >>
> >> Are there ways to make having kids a much more viable and desirable
> >> choice than it is today?
> >>
> >At this point I am feeling an overwhelming need to point out that one of
> >the American states has a local legislator proposing a bill to reduce a
> >married, heterosexual couple's property taxes by 10% for each
> >non-adopted child they have.
> Given how property tax works, I don't think that's even possible.
>
> But I don't have to worry about that. Our State Constitution is quite
> clear: taxes must be the same rate for all taxed entities in a given
> taxing district.
>
> Which is why we don't have an Income Tax: it couldn't have different
> rates for different income levels, so what's the point?

It would raise revenue for the state. Taxes aren't always intended to
address social issues. MA has a flat 5% income tax across the board, for
both residents and non-residents. Some of my coworkers who live in NH
but worked in MA, got a 5% instant raise when our group when 100% remote.

pt

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

<a23k0i5pusq0mie77tp5has14c5k4rkl2o@4ax.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=86088&group=rec.arts.sf.written#86088

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader01.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: psper...@old.netcom.invalid (Paul S Person)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 08:44:58 -0800
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 77
Message-ID: <a23k0i5pusq0mie77tp5has14c5k4rkl2o@4ax.com>
References: <785b72aa-ac87-42da-9b87-510dee6db0b5n@googlegroups.com> <tu62ru$4l04$1@dont-email.me> <xgINL.250158$Olad.132666@fx35.iad> <tu7mt7$799$1@reader2.panix.com> <5d2b9e9d-2289-44cd-a1fe-0630968d0439n@googlegroups.com> <tu7rqt$g147$2@dont-email.me> <97fh0iham6htg66tsihhljlrgnf9svlcvj@4ax.com> <6416d319-3a05-4bc8-ba5b-438fb7b12a9fn@googlegroups.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Injection-Info: reader01.eternal-september.org; posting-host="5777016e1d588da5e4aac86fc095b19c";
logging-data="1618512"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1///aW+YT4tuN60PloydFzW6XlxeHSPZuI="
User-Agent: ForteAgent/8.00.32.1272
Cancel-Lock: sha1:+LVQFv1lU9MRefUP8TA2/pnQXxI=
 by: Paul S Person - Thu, 9 Mar 2023 16:44 UTC

On Thu, 9 Mar 2023 07:20:07 -0800 (PST), "pete...@gmail.com"
<petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, March 8, 2023 at 12:35:13?PM UTC-5, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 09:21:34 -0800, Dimensional Traveler
>> <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
>>
>> >On 3/7/2023 9:08 AM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >> On Tuesday, March 7, 2023 at 10:57:31?AM UTC-5, James Nicoll wrote:
>> >>> Apparently it's steam engine time for this issue: the Long Now
>> >>> just had a piece:
>> >>>
>> >>> https://longnow.org/ideas/the-heresy-of-decline/
>> >>
>> >> A pretty decent article, which handily mentions James'
>> >> own 2018 contribution to the field, without him having to
>> >> blow his own horn:
>> >>
>> >> https://www.tor.com/2018/06/11/why-are-there-so-few-sff-books-about-the-very-real-issue-of-population-decline/
>> >>
>> >>> As a consequence of which, I just checked to see if my prefered
>> >>> academic library has a copy of the _first_ edition of The Population
>> >>> Bomb... which it does.
>> >>>
>> >>> It seems to me, though, that most demographic issues can be addressed
>> >>> by significantly curtailing Savard's civil liberties on flimsy
>> >>> pretexts.
>> >>
>> >> Are there ways to make having kids a much more viable and desirable
>> >> choice than it is today?
>> >>
>> >At this point I am feeling an overwhelming need to point out that one of
>> >the American states has a local legislator proposing a bill to reduce a
>> >married, heterosexual couple's property taxes by 10% for each
>> >non-adopted child they have.
>> Given how property tax works, I don't think that's even possible.
>>
>> But I don't have to worry about that. Our State Constitution is quite
>> clear: taxes must be the same rate for all taxed entities in a given
>> taxing district.
>>
>> Which is why we don't have an Income Tax: it couldn't have different
>> rates for different income levels, so what's the point?
>> >Given that the legislator in question is a right-wing nutjob I believe
>> >he is also trying to include language to restrict that to WASP couples,
>> >no interracial couples need apply.
>> The reason for suspecting that is obvious, but proof would be better.
>
>White households that own their dwelling: 74%
>Black households that own their dwelling: 44%
>
>When does 'overwhelming evidence' become 'proof'?

Sadly, the item to be proved is that the State legislator in question
means, when he proposes a property tax deduction, to limit it to WASP
couples.

IOW, the assertion is that even the non-whites who own their homes
(not to mention non-WASPS, such as Poles, Irish, or Italians, and
non-hetero couples) would be excluded.

So your statistics are ... not on point.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

<p83k0id63n1e2lldn9qt2a3gos0nso8h6c@4ax.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=86089&group=rec.arts.sf.written#86089

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader01.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: psper...@old.netcom.invalid (Paul S Person)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 08:47:29 -0800
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 68
Message-ID: <p83k0id63n1e2lldn9qt2a3gos0nso8h6c@4ax.com>
References: <785b72aa-ac87-42da-9b87-510dee6db0b5n@googlegroups.com> <tu62ru$4l04$1@dont-email.me> <xgINL.250158$Olad.132666@fx35.iad> <tu7mt7$799$1@reader2.panix.com> <5d2b9e9d-2289-44cd-a1fe-0630968d0439n@googlegroups.com> <tu7rqt$g147$2@dont-email.me> <97fh0iham6htg66tsihhljlrgnf9svlcvj@4ax.com> <2697fc32-33f0-493b-98d4-a726831c1ea3n@googlegroups.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Injection-Info: reader01.eternal-september.org; posting-host="5777016e1d588da5e4aac86fc095b19c";
logging-data="1618512"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX18euoL/39+gGX/kjdpJENUEM0ooS/77nsM="
User-Agent: ForteAgent/8.00.32.1272
Cancel-Lock: sha1:kiBXUAU310IJf5HnKjwCGMRL6z8=
 by: Paul S Person - Thu, 9 Mar 2023 16:47 UTC

On Thu, 9 Mar 2023 07:37:24 -0800 (PST), "pete...@gmail.com"
<petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, March 8, 2023 at 12:35:13?PM UTC-5, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 09:21:34 -0800, Dimensional Traveler
>> <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
>>
>> >On 3/7/2023 9:08 AM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >> On Tuesday, March 7, 2023 at 10:57:31?AM UTC-5, James Nicoll wrote:
>> >>> Apparently it's steam engine time for this issue: the Long Now
>> >>> just had a piece:
>> >>>
>> >>> https://longnow.org/ideas/the-heresy-of-decline/
>> >>
>> >> A pretty decent article, which handily mentions James'
>> >> own 2018 contribution to the field, without him having to
>> >> blow his own horn:
>> >>
>> >> https://www.tor.com/2018/06/11/why-are-there-so-few-sff-books-about-the-very-real-issue-of-population-decline/
>> >>
>> >>> As a consequence of which, I just checked to see if my prefered
>> >>> academic library has a copy of the _first_ edition of The Population
>> >>> Bomb... which it does.
>> >>>
>> >>> It seems to me, though, that most demographic issues can be addressed
>> >>> by significantly curtailing Savard's civil liberties on flimsy
>> >>> pretexts.
>> >>
>> >> Are there ways to make having kids a much more viable and desirable
>> >> choice than it is today?
>> >>
>> >At this point I am feeling an overwhelming need to point out that one of
>> >the American states has a local legislator proposing a bill to reduce a
>> >married, heterosexual couple's property taxes by 10% for each
>> >non-adopted child they have.
>> Given how property tax works, I don't think that's even possible.
>>
>> But I don't have to worry about that. Our State Constitution is quite
>> clear: taxes must be the same rate for all taxed entities in a given
>> taxing district.
>>
>> Which is why we don't have an Income Tax: it couldn't have different
>> rates for different income levels, so what's the point?
>
>It would raise revenue for the state. Taxes aren't always intended to
>address social issues. MA has a flat 5% income tax across the board, for
>both residents and non-residents. Some of my coworkers who live in NH
>but worked in MA, got a 5% instant raise when our group when 100% remote.

That won't fly here; in fact, the form currently waiting for the State
Supreme Court to it unconstitutional only applies to the rich. IOW,
Most of Us would have a tax rate of 0%, and that ain't constitutional.

Well, unless our Supreme Court says it is, of course.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

<HnoOL.1843313$GNG9.644433@fx18.iad>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=86091&group=rec.arts.sf.written#86091

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!feeder1.feed.usenet.farm!feed.usenet.farm!peer01.ams4!peer.am4.highwinds-media.com!peer02.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!fx18.iad.POSTED!not-for-mail
X-newsreader: xrn 9.03-beta-14-64bit
Sender: scott@dragon.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
From: sco...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
Reply-To: slp53@pacbell.net
Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
References: <785b72aa-ac87-42da-9b87-510dee6db0b5n@googlegroups.com> <tu62ru$4l04$1@dont-email.me> <xgINL.250158$Olad.132666@fx35.iad> <tu7mt7$799$1@reader2.panix.com> <5d2b9e9d-2289-44cd-a1fe-0630968d0439n@googlegroups.com> <tu7rqt$g147$2@dont-email.me> <97fh0iham6htg66tsihhljlrgnf9svlcvj@4ax.com> <6416d319-3a05-4bc8-ba5b-438fb7b12a9fn@googlegroups.com> <a23k0i5pusq0mie77tp5has14c5k4rkl2o@4ax.com>
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <HnoOL.1843313$GNG9.644433@fx18.iad>
X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 17:07:51 UTC
Organization: UsenetServer - www.usenetserver.com
Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 17:07:51 GMT
X-Received-Bytes: 2507
 by: Scott Lurndal - Thu, 9 Mar 2023 17:07 UTC

Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
>On Thu, 9 Mar 2023 07:20:07 -0800 (PST), "pete...@gmail.com"

>>> >Given that the legislator in question is a right-wing nutjob I =
>believe=20
>>> >he is also trying to include language to restrict that to WASP =
>couples,=20
>>> >no interracial couples need apply.
>>> The reason for suspecting that is obvious, but proof would be better.=20
>>
>>White households that own their dwelling: 74%
>>Black households that own their dwelling: 44%
>>
>>When does 'overwhelming evidence' become 'proof'?
>
>Sadly, the item to be proved is that the State legislator in question
>means, when he proposes a property tax deduction, to limit it to WASP
>couples.

The state in question is the nutty state of Texas.

https://capitol.texas.gov/tlodocs/88R/billtext/html/HB02889I.htm

"Qualifying married couple" means a man and a
woman who are legally married to each other,
neither of whom have ever been divorced."

The credit is 100% if one has 10 children that meet the
qualifications. Note that a child born (or adopted) out
of wedlock does not qualify.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryan_Slaton

"Bryan Lee Slaton (born February 2, 1978)[1] is a former pastor...

"On March 6, 2023, Slaton introduced HB 3596, the "Texas Independence Referendum
Act" (TEXIT),[12] which would allow for a referendum to investigate the
secession of Texas from the U.S."

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

<robertaw-F66F13.09580709032023@news.individual.net>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=86092&group=rec.arts.sf.written#86092

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!newsreader4.netcologne.de!news.netcologne.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
From: rober...@drizzle.com (Robert Woodward)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 09:58:07 -0800
Organization: home user
Lines: 71
Message-ID: <robertaw-F66F13.09580709032023@news.individual.net>
References: <785b72aa-ac87-42da-9b87-510dee6db0b5n@googlegroups.com> <tu62ru$4l04$1@dont-email.me> <xgINL.250158$Olad.132666@fx35.iad> <tu7mt7$799$1@reader2.panix.com> <5d2b9e9d-2289-44cd-a1fe-0630968d0439n@googlegroups.com> <tu7rqt$g147$2@dont-email.me> <97fh0iham6htg66tsihhljlrgnf9svlcvj@4ax.com> <2697fc32-33f0-493b-98d4-a726831c1ea3n@googlegroups.com> <p83k0id63n1e2lldn9qt2a3gos0nso8h6c@4ax.com>
X-Trace: individual.net YGrbum4kO6GoMKu+tR3Iog7yjHY4Tnwq8iA082dcmdgxGatX6Z
X-Orig-Path: robertaw
Cancel-Lock: sha1:V6w3plYdZ8vJt0gvViiobOicQEE=
User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.5.2 (Intel Mac OS X)
 by: Robert Woodward - Thu, 9 Mar 2023 17:58 UTC

In article <p83k0id63n1e2lldn9qt2a3gos0nso8h6c@4ax.com>,
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

> On Thu, 9 Mar 2023 07:37:24 -0800 (PST), "pete...@gmail.com"
> <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Wednesday, March 8, 2023 at 12:35:13?PM UTC-5, Paul S Person wrote:
> >> On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 09:21:34 -0800, Dimensional Traveler
> >> <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On 3/7/2023 9:08 AM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> >> On Tuesday, March 7, 2023 at 10:57:31?AM UTC-5, James Nicoll wrote:
> >> >>> Apparently it's steam engine time for this issue: the Long Now
> >> >>> just had a piece:
> >> >>>
> >> >>> https://longnow.org/ideas/the-heresy-of-decline/
> >> >>
> >> >> A pretty decent article, which handily mentions James'
> >> >> own 2018 contribution to the field, without him having to
> >> >> blow his own horn:
> >> >>
> >> >> https://www.tor.com/2018/06/11/why-are-there-so-few-sff-books-about-the-
> >> >> very-real-issue-of-population-decline/
> >> >>
> >> >>> As a consequence of which, I just checked to see if my prefered
> >> >>> academic library has a copy of the _first_ edition of The Population
> >> >>> Bomb... which it does.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> It seems to me, though, that most demographic issues can be addressed
> >> >>> by significantly curtailing Savard's civil liberties on flimsy
> >> >>> pretexts.
> >> >>
> >> >> Are there ways to make having kids a much more viable and desirable
> >> >> choice than it is today?
> >> >>
> >> >At this point I am feeling an overwhelming need to point out that one of
> >> >the American states has a local legislator proposing a bill to reduce a
> >> >married, heterosexual couple's property taxes by 10% for each
> >> >non-adopted child they have.
> >> Given how property tax works, I don't think that's even possible.
> >>
> >> But I don't have to worry about that. Our State Constitution is quite
> >> clear: taxes must be the same rate for all taxed entities in a given
> >> taxing district.
> >>
> >> Which is why we don't have an Income Tax: it couldn't have different
> >> rates for different income levels, so what's the point?
> >
> >It would raise revenue for the state. Taxes aren't always intended to
> >address social issues. MA has a flat 5% income tax across the board, for
> >both residents and non-residents. Some of my coworkers who live in NH
> >but worked in MA, got a 5% instant raise when our group when 100% remote.
>
> That won't fly here; in fact, the form currently waiting for the State
> Supreme Court to it unconstitutional only applies to the rich. IOW,
> Most of Us would have a tax rate of 0%, and that ain't constitutional.
>
> Well, unless our Supreme Court says it is, of course.

My somewhat cynical opinion is that the legislature, by calling it "an
excise tax" was giving the Washington State Supreme Court an excuse to
call it constitutional. Personally, I think if they passed a flat tax on
non-wage income (e.g., rents, interest, dividends, capital gains, but
not social security nor pensions) they would have had a better chance at
WSSC approval (they would had been at least more honest).

--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
-------------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward robertaw@drizzle.com

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

<1b7331e6-d5db-4ccc-819d-580d67def5b0n@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=86095&group=rec.arts.sf.written#86095

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6214:1408:b0:56c:2300:298 with SMTP id pr8-20020a056214140800b0056c23000298mr6087748qvb.8.1678392420813;
Thu, 09 Mar 2023 12:07:00 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:39c6:b0:68b:8067:b5d4 with SMTP id
bt6-20020a05683039c600b0068b8067b5d4mr7317303otb.3.1678392420447; Thu, 09 Mar
2023 12:07:00 -0800 (PST)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.blueworldhosting.com!feed1.usenet.blueworldhosting.com!peer03.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2023 12:07:00 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <HnoOL.1843313$GNG9.644433@fx18.iad>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=136.226.18.47; posting-account=BUItcQoAAACgV97n05UTyfLcl1Rd4W33
NNTP-Posting-Host: 136.226.18.47
References: <785b72aa-ac87-42da-9b87-510dee6db0b5n@googlegroups.com>
<tu62ru$4l04$1@dont-email.me> <xgINL.250158$Olad.132666@fx35.iad>
<tu7mt7$799$1@reader2.panix.com> <5d2b9e9d-2289-44cd-a1fe-0630968d0439n@googlegroups.com>
<tu7rqt$g147$2@dont-email.me> <97fh0iham6htg66tsihhljlrgnf9svlcvj@4ax.com>
<6416d319-3a05-4bc8-ba5b-438fb7b12a9fn@googlegroups.com> <a23k0i5pusq0mie77tp5has14c5k4rkl2o@4ax.com>
<HnoOL.1843313$GNG9.644433@fx18.iad>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <1b7331e6-d5db-4ccc-819d-580d67def5b0n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
From: petert...@gmail.com (pete...@gmail.com)
Injection-Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 20:07:00 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Received-Bytes: 3449
 by: pete...@gmail.com - Thu, 9 Mar 2023 20:07 UTC

On Thursday, March 9, 2023 at 12:07:55 PM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Paul S Person <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
> >On Thu, 9 Mar 2023 07:20:07 -0800 (PST), "pete...@gmail.com"
> >>> >Given that the legislator in question is a right-wing nutjob I =
> >believe=20
> >>> >he is also trying to include language to restrict that to WASP =
> >couples,=20
> >>> >no interracial couples need apply.
> >>> The reason for suspecting that is obvious, but proof would be better.=20
> >>
> >>White households that own their dwelling: 74%
> >>Black households that own their dwelling: 44%
> >>
> >>When does 'overwhelming evidence' become 'proof'?
> >
> >Sadly, the item to be proved is that the State legislator in question
> >means, when he proposes a property tax deduction, to limit it to WASP
> >couples.
> The state in question is the nutty state of Texas.
>
> https://capitol.texas.gov/tlodocs/88R/billtext/html/HB02889I.htm
>
>
> "Qualifying married couple" means a man and a
> woman who are legally married to each other,
> neither of whom have ever been divorced."
>
> The credit is 100% if one has 10 children that meet the
> qualifications. Note that a child born (or adopted) out
> of wedlock does not qualify.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryan_Slaton
>
> "Bryan Lee Slaton (born February 2, 1978)[1] is a former pastor...
>
> "On March 6, 2023, Slaton introduced HB 3596, the "Texas Independence Referendum
> Act" (TEXIT),[12] which would allow for a referendum to investigate the
> secession of Texas from the U.S."

I always wonder when I so whackazoid proposals like this from legislators,
to what extent they are serious, and to what extent its just grandstanding
for the base.

pt

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

<b655bc7a-24cd-4824-8bb9-1779cc6394bbn@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=86096&group=rec.arts.sf.written#86096

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
X-Received: by 2002:ac8:5e0a:0:b0:3bf:d1e1:aaf4 with SMTP id h10-20020ac85e0a000000b003bfd1e1aaf4mr6846240qtx.8.1678392762223;
Thu, 09 Mar 2023 12:12:42 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6871:6a99:b0:172:3aea:ecaa with SMTP id
zf25-20020a0568716a9900b001723aeaecaamr7584243oab.9.1678392761954; Thu, 09
Mar 2023 12:12:41 -0800 (PST)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.blueworldhosting.com!feed1.usenet.blueworldhosting.com!peer03.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2023 12:12:41 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <p83k0id63n1e2lldn9qt2a3gos0nso8h6c@4ax.com>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=136.226.18.47; posting-account=BUItcQoAAACgV97n05UTyfLcl1Rd4W33
NNTP-Posting-Host: 136.226.18.47
References: <785b72aa-ac87-42da-9b87-510dee6db0b5n@googlegroups.com>
<tu62ru$4l04$1@dont-email.me> <xgINL.250158$Olad.132666@fx35.iad>
<tu7mt7$799$1@reader2.panix.com> <5d2b9e9d-2289-44cd-a1fe-0630968d0439n@googlegroups.com>
<tu7rqt$g147$2@dont-email.me> <97fh0iham6htg66tsihhljlrgnf9svlcvj@4ax.com>
<2697fc32-33f0-493b-98d4-a726831c1ea3n@googlegroups.com> <p83k0id63n1e2lldn9qt2a3gos0nso8h6c@4ax.com>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <b655bc7a-24cd-4824-8bb9-1779cc6394bbn@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
From: petert...@gmail.com (pete...@gmail.com)
Injection-Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 20:12:42 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Received-Bytes: 4660
 by: pete...@gmail.com - Thu, 9 Mar 2023 20:12 UTC

On Thursday, March 9, 2023 at 11:47:35 AM UTC-5, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Thu, 9 Mar 2023 07:37:24 -0800 (PST), "pete...@gmail.com"
> <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Wednesday, March 8, 2023 at 12:35:13?PM UTC-5, Paul S Person wrote:
> >> On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 09:21:34 -0800, Dimensional Traveler
> >> <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On 3/7/2023 9:08 AM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> >> On Tuesday, March 7, 2023 at 10:57:31?AM UTC-5, James Nicoll wrote:
> >> >>> Apparently it's steam engine time for this issue: the Long Now
> >> >>> just had a piece:
> >> >>>
> >> >>> https://longnow.org/ideas/the-heresy-of-decline/
> >> >>
> >> >> A pretty decent article, which handily mentions James'
> >> >> own 2018 contribution to the field, without him having to
> >> >> blow his own horn:
> >> >>
> >> >> https://www.tor.com/2018/06/11/why-are-there-so-few-sff-books-about-the-very-real-issue-of-population-decline/
> >> >>
> >> >>> As a consequence of which, I just checked to see if my prefered
> >> >>> academic library has a copy of the _first_ edition of The Population
> >> >>> Bomb... which it does.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> It seems to me, though, that most demographic issues can be addressed
> >> >>> by significantly curtailing Savard's civil liberties on flimsy
> >> >>> pretexts.
> >> >>
> >> >> Are there ways to make having kids a much more viable and desirable
> >> >> choice than it is today?
> >> >>
> >> >At this point I am feeling an overwhelming need to point out that one of
> >> >the American states has a local legislator proposing a bill to reduce a
> >> >married, heterosexual couple's property taxes by 10% for each
> >> >non-adopted child they have.
> >> Given how property tax works, I don't think that's even possible.
> >>
> >> But I don't have to worry about that. Our State Constitution is quite
> >> clear: taxes must be the same rate for all taxed entities in a given
> >> taxing district.
> >>
> >> Which is why we don't have an Income Tax: it couldn't have different
> >> rates for different income levels, so what's the point?
> >
> >It would raise revenue for the state. Taxes aren't always intended to
> >address social issues. MA has a flat 5% income tax across the board, for
> >both residents and non-residents. Some of my coworkers who live in NH
> >but worked in MA, got a 5% instant raise when our group when 100% remote..
> That won't fly here; in fact, the form currently waiting for the State
> Supreme Court to it unconstitutional only applies to the rich. IOW,
> Most of Us would have a tax rate of 0%, and that ain't constitutional.

I'm confused - how does '5% across the board' apply only to the rich?
[I'll put aside the just passed, and grossly unfair, 'millionaire tax' in MA]

Also, while it might not be constitutional at the state level, at the Federal
level, 40% of households pay zero Federal income tax.

pt

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

<tudgrl$1jqlt$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=86106&group=rec.arts.sf.written#86106

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader01.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: dtra...@sonic.net (Dimensional Traveler)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2023 12:51:02 -0800
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 73
Message-ID: <tudgrl$1jqlt$1@dont-email.me>
References: <785b72aa-ac87-42da-9b87-510dee6db0b5n@googlegroups.com>
<tu62ru$4l04$1@dont-email.me> <xgINL.250158$Olad.132666@fx35.iad>
<tu7mt7$799$1@reader2.panix.com>
<5d2b9e9d-2289-44cd-a1fe-0630968d0439n@googlegroups.com>
<tu7rqt$g147$2@dont-email.me> <97fh0iham6htg66tsihhljlrgnf9svlcvj@4ax.com>
<6416d319-3a05-4bc8-ba5b-438fb7b12a9fn@googlegroups.com>
<a23k0i5pusq0mie77tp5has14c5k4rkl2o@4ax.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2023 20:51:01 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader01.eternal-september.org; posting-host="7ca94c705e9c3bd39b7b0d9f670d7fc7";
logging-data="1698493"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1//PgktlwbRe7Jva9D+W8Wi"
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/102.8.0
Cancel-Lock: sha1:tz4mMCLRY+wwUjCe/1EJQ+U/ijI=
Content-Language: en-US
In-Reply-To: <a23k0i5pusq0mie77tp5has14c5k4rkl2o@4ax.com>
 by: Dimensional Traveler - Thu, 9 Mar 2023 20:51 UTC

On 3/9/2023 8:44 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Thu, 9 Mar 2023 07:20:07 -0800 (PST), "pete...@gmail.com"
> <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wednesday, March 8, 2023 at 12:35:13?PM UTC-5, Paul S Person wrote:
>>> On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 09:21:34 -0800, Dimensional Traveler
>>> <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 3/7/2023 9:08 AM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> On Tuesday, March 7, 2023 at 10:57:31?AM UTC-5, James Nicoll wrote:
>>>>>> Apparently it's steam engine time for this issue: the Long Now
>>>>>> just had a piece:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://longnow.org/ideas/the-heresy-of-decline/
>>>>>
>>>>> A pretty decent article, which handily mentions James'
>>>>> own 2018 contribution to the field, without him having to
>>>>> blow his own horn:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.tor.com/2018/06/11/why-are-there-so-few-sff-books-about-the-very-real-issue-of-population-decline/
>>>>>
>>>>>> As a consequence of which, I just checked to see if my prefered
>>>>>> academic library has a copy of the _first_ edition of The Population
>>>>>> Bomb... which it does.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It seems to me, though, that most demographic issues can be addressed
>>>>>> by significantly curtailing Savard's civil liberties on flimsy
>>>>>> pretexts.
>>>>>
>>>>> Are there ways to make having kids a much more viable and desirable
>>>>> choice than it is today?
>>>>>
>>>> At this point I am feeling an overwhelming need to point out that one of
>>>> the American states has a local legislator proposing a bill to reduce a
>>>> married, heterosexual couple's property taxes by 10% for each
>>>> non-adopted child they have.
>>> Given how property tax works, I don't think that's even possible.
>>>
>>> But I don't have to worry about that. Our State Constitution is quite
>>> clear: taxes must be the same rate for all taxed entities in a given
>>> taxing district.
>>>
>>> Which is why we don't have an Income Tax: it couldn't have different
>>> rates for different income levels, so what's the point?
>>>> Given that the legislator in question is a right-wing nutjob I believe
>>>> he is also trying to include language to restrict that to WASP couples,
>>>> no interracial couples need apply.
>>> The reason for suspecting that is obvious, but proof would be better.
>>
>> White households that own their dwelling: 74%
>> Black households that own their dwelling: 44%
>>
>> When does 'overwhelming evidence' become 'proof'?
>
> Sadly, the item to be proved is that the State legislator in question
> means, when he proposes a property tax deduction, to limit it to WASP
> couples.
>
> IOW, the assertion is that even the non-whites who own their homes
> (not to mention non-WASPS, such as Poles, Irish, or Italians, and
> non-hetero couples) would be excluded.
>
> So your statistics are ... not on point.

As I recall I said I suspect the legislator would like to limit it to
WASP couples. And non-hetero couples _are_ excluded from the provisions
of the bill from what I read as the children would have to be the
natural born offspring of the two parents.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

<tudgu6$1jqlt$2@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=86107&group=rec.arts.sf.written#86107

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader01.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: dtra...@sonic.net (Dimensional Traveler)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2023 12:52:24 -0800
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 50
Message-ID: <tudgu6$1jqlt$2@dont-email.me>
References: <785b72aa-ac87-42da-9b87-510dee6db0b5n@googlegroups.com>
<tu62ru$4l04$1@dont-email.me> <xgINL.250158$Olad.132666@fx35.iad>
<tu7mt7$799$1@reader2.panix.com>
<5d2b9e9d-2289-44cd-a1fe-0630968d0439n@googlegroups.com>
<tu7rqt$g147$2@dont-email.me> <97fh0iham6htg66tsihhljlrgnf9svlcvj@4ax.com>
<6416d319-3a05-4bc8-ba5b-438fb7b12a9fn@googlegroups.com>
<a23k0i5pusq0mie77tp5has14c5k4rkl2o@4ax.com>
<HnoOL.1843313$GNG9.644433@fx18.iad>
<1b7331e6-d5db-4ccc-819d-580d67def5b0n@googlegroups.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2023 20:52:23 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader01.eternal-september.org; posting-host="7ca94c705e9c3bd39b7b0d9f670d7fc7";
logging-data="1698493"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1/FMOzoh3JRyw13jzxo56qS"
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/102.8.0
Cancel-Lock: sha1:t0iwMzk3gpiRD5vXJyBhUEiQU+c=
Content-Language: en-US
In-Reply-To: <1b7331e6-d5db-4ccc-819d-580d67def5b0n@googlegroups.com>
 by: Dimensional Traveler - Thu, 9 Mar 2023 20:52 UTC

On 3/9/2023 12:07 PM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, March 9, 2023 at 12:07:55 PM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> Paul S Person <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
>>> On Thu, 9 Mar 2023 07:20:07 -0800 (PST), "pete...@gmail.com"
>>>>>> Given that the legislator in question is a right-wing nutjob I =
>>> believe=20
>>>>>> he is also trying to include language to restrict that to WASP =
>>> couples,=20
>>>>>> no interracial couples need apply.
>>>>> The reason for suspecting that is obvious, but proof would be better.=20
>>>>
>>>> White households that own their dwelling: 74%
>>>> Black households that own their dwelling: 44%
>>>>
>>>> When does 'overwhelming evidence' become 'proof'?
>>>
>>> Sadly, the item to be proved is that the State legislator in question
>>> means, when he proposes a property tax deduction, to limit it to WASP
>>> couples.
>> The state in question is the nutty state of Texas.
>>
>> https://capitol.texas.gov/tlodocs/88R/billtext/html/HB02889I.htm
>>
>>
>> "Qualifying married couple" means a man and a
>> woman who are legally married to each other,
>> neither of whom have ever been divorced."
>>
>> The credit is 100% if one has 10 children that meet the
>> qualifications. Note that a child born (or adopted) out
>> of wedlock does not qualify.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryan_Slaton
>>
>> "Bryan Lee Slaton (born February 2, 1978)[1] is a former pastor...
>>
>> "On March 6, 2023, Slaton introduced HB 3596, the "Texas Independence Referendum
>> Act" (TEXIT),[12] which would allow for a referendum to investigate the
>> secession of Texas from the U.S."
>
> I always wonder when I so whackazoid proposals like this from legislators,
> to what extent they are serious, and to what extent its just grandstanding
> for the base.
>
Twenty years ago it was just grandstanding. Today it is serious.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

<6jsOL.165626$jiuc.37652@fx44.iad>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=86115&group=rec.arts.sf.written#86115

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.blueworldhosting.com!feed1.usenet.blueworldhosting.com!peer03.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!fx44.iad.POSTED!not-for-mail
X-newsreader: xrn 9.03-beta-14-64bit
Sender: scott@dragon.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
From: sco...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
Reply-To: slp53@pacbell.net
Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
References: <785b72aa-ac87-42da-9b87-510dee6db0b5n@googlegroups.com> <tu62ru$4l04$1@dont-email.me> <xgINL.250158$Olad.132666@fx35.iad> <tu7mt7$799$1@reader2.panix.com> <5d2b9e9d-2289-44cd-a1fe-0630968d0439n@googlegroups.com> <tu7rqt$g147$2@dont-email.me> <97fh0iham6htg66tsihhljlrgnf9svlcvj@4ax.com> <2697fc32-33f0-493b-98d4-a726831c1ea3n@googlegroups.com> <p83k0id63n1e2lldn9qt2a3gos0nso8h6c@4ax.com> <b655bc7a-24cd-4824-8bb9-1779cc6394bbn@googlegroups.com>
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <6jsOL.165626$jiuc.37652@fx44.iad>
X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 21:36:02 UTC
Organization: UsenetServer - www.usenetserver.com
Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 21:36:02 GMT
X-Received-Bytes: 1639
 by: Scott Lurndal - Thu, 9 Mar 2023 21:36 UTC

"pete...@gmail.com" <petertrei@gmail.com> writes:
>On Thursday, March 9, 2023 at 11:47:35=E2=80=AFAM UTC-5, Paul S Person wrot=
>e:
nstitutional.=20
>
>I'm confused - how does '5% across the board' apply only to the rich?
>[I'll put aside the just passed, and grossly unfair, 'millionaire tax' in M=
>A]
>
>Also, while it might not be constitutional at the state level, at the Feder=
>al
>level, 40% of households pay zero Federal income tax.
>

While true, it's a bit misleading as those folks are generally hit harder
by consumption (sales), fuel, utility, telecommunications taxes, import tariffs, et alia.

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

<tudoml$1l3ft$2@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=86121&group=rec.arts.sf.written#86121

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader01.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: lynnmcgu...@gmail.com (Lynn McGuire)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2023 17:04:52 -0600
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <tudoml$1l3ft$2@dont-email.me>
References: <785b72aa-ac87-42da-9b87-510dee6db0b5n@googlegroups.com>
<tu62ru$4l04$1@dont-email.me> <xgINL.250158$Olad.132666@fx35.iad>
<tu7mt7$799$1@reader2.panix.com>
<5d2b9e9d-2289-44cd-a1fe-0630968d0439n@googlegroups.com>
<tu7rqt$g147$2@dont-email.me> <97fh0iham6htg66tsihhljlrgnf9svlcvj@4ax.com>
<6416d319-3a05-4bc8-ba5b-438fb7b12a9fn@googlegroups.com>
<a23k0i5pusq0mie77tp5has14c5k4rkl2o@4ax.com>
<HnoOL.1843313$GNG9.644433@fx18.iad>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2023 23:04:53 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader01.eternal-september.org; posting-host="8cae8ed6f29d65a875bdaf82fbffbb1d";
logging-data="1740285"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1878wSWeWqmzfJTrFXuZ1x67UIOfM7SvSU="
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/102.8.0
Cancel-Lock: sha1:o+YR5/kVB147h9tsCY9wIDsiqOk=
Content-Language: en-US
In-Reply-To: <HnoOL.1843313$GNG9.644433@fx18.iad>
 by: Lynn McGuire - Thu, 9 Mar 2023 23:04 UTC

On 3/9/2023 11:07 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
>> On Thu, 9 Mar 2023 07:20:07 -0800 (PST), "pete...@gmail.com"
>
>>>>> Given that the legislator in question is a right-wing nutjob I =
>> believe=20
>>>>> he is also trying to include language to restrict that to WASP =
>> couples,=20
>>>>> no interracial couples need apply.
>>>> The reason for suspecting that is obvious, but proof would be better.=20
>>>
>>> White households that own their dwelling: 74%
>>> Black households that own their dwelling: 44%
>>>
>>> When does 'overwhelming evidence' become 'proof'?
>>
>> Sadly, the item to be proved is that the State legislator in question
>> means, when he proposes a property tax deduction, to limit it to WASP
>> couples.
>
> The state in question is the nutty state of Texas.
>
> https://capitol.texas.gov/tlodocs/88R/billtext/html/HB02889I.htm
>
>
> "Qualifying married couple" means a man and a
> woman who are legally married to each other,
> neither of whom have ever been divorced."
>
> The credit is 100% if one has 10 children that meet the
> qualifications. Note that a child born (or adopted) out
> of wedlock does not qualify.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryan_Slaton
>
> "Bryan Lee Slaton (born February 2, 1978)[1] is a former pastor...
>
> "On March 6, 2023, Slaton introduced HB 3596, the "Texas Independence Referendum
> Act" (TEXIT),[12] which would allow for a referendum to investigate the
> secession of Texas from the U.S."

The Texas legislature is meeting from Jan 2 to May 31 this year. They
only meet every other year. The result is total craziness. Herding
cats is easy by comparison.

Austin, Texas inhabitants are advised to watch over their children and
to safeguard their animals.

Lynn

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

<tudorn$1l3ft$3@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=86123&group=rec.arts.sf.written#86123

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader01.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: lynnmcgu...@gmail.com (Lynn McGuire)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2023 17:07:35 -0600
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <tudorn$1l3ft$3@dont-email.me>
References: <785b72aa-ac87-42da-9b87-510dee6db0b5n@googlegroups.com>
<tu62ru$4l04$1@dont-email.me> <xgINL.250158$Olad.132666@fx35.iad>
<tu7mt7$799$1@reader2.panix.com>
<5d2b9e9d-2289-44cd-a1fe-0630968d0439n@googlegroups.com>
<tu7rqt$g147$2@dont-email.me> <97fh0iham6htg66tsihhljlrgnf9svlcvj@4ax.com>
<2697fc32-33f0-493b-98d4-a726831c1ea3n@googlegroups.com>
<p83k0id63n1e2lldn9qt2a3gos0nso8h6c@4ax.com>
<b655bc7a-24cd-4824-8bb9-1779cc6394bbn@googlegroups.com>
<6jsOL.165626$jiuc.37652@fx44.iad>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2023 23:07:35 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader01.eternal-september.org; posting-host="8cae8ed6f29d65a875bdaf82fbffbb1d";
logging-data="1740285"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1+Hq9o13BdS3WxefH116KIjupWn6Q6I8bo="
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/102.8.0
Cancel-Lock: sha1:96XdVLETbC16vUd6Xmcx/uEnBoY=
In-Reply-To: <6jsOL.165626$jiuc.37652@fx44.iad>
Content-Language: en-US
 by: Lynn McGuire - Thu, 9 Mar 2023 23:07 UTC

On 3/9/2023 3:36 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> "pete...@gmail.com" <petertrei@gmail.com> writes:
>> On Thursday, March 9, 2023 at 11:47:35=E2=80=AFAM UTC-5, Paul S Person wrot=
>> e:
> nstitutional.=20
>>
>> I'm confused - how does '5% across the board' apply only to the rich?
>> [I'll put aside the just passed, and grossly unfair, 'millionaire tax' in M=
>> A]
>>
>> Also, while it might not be constitutional at the state level, at the Feder=
>> al
>> level, 40% of households pay zero Federal income tax.
>>
>
> While true, it's a bit misleading as those folks are generally hit harder
> by consumption (sales), fuel, utility, telecommunications taxes, import tariffs, et alia.

In Texas, we exempt sales taxes on unprepared food, water, and medical.
That generally evens things out.

Lynn

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

<2ac56a12-e0bd-4d95-b1ae-805f53cc7be8n@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=86147&group=rec.arts.sf.written#86147

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
X-Received: by 2002:ac8:4101:0:b0:3b8:6767:eb15 with SMTP id q1-20020ac84101000000b003b86767eb15mr6718941qtl.1.1678457244053;
Fri, 10 Mar 2023 06:07:24 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6870:fd8b:b0:176:3e22:3f99 with SMTP id
ma11-20020a056870fd8b00b001763e223f99mr1096884oab.2.1678457243611; Fri, 10
Mar 2023 06:07:23 -0800 (PST)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.blueworldhosting.com!feed1.usenet.blueworldhosting.com!peer01.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 06:07:23 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <5d2b9e9d-2289-44cd-a1fe-0630968d0439n@googlegroups.com>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=92.41.137.149; posting-account=dELd-gkAAABehNzDMBP4sfQElk2tFztP
NNTP-Posting-Host: 92.41.137.149
References: <785b72aa-ac87-42da-9b87-510dee6db0b5n@googlegroups.com>
<tu62ru$4l04$1@dont-email.me> <xgINL.250158$Olad.132666@fx35.iad>
<tu7mt7$799$1@reader2.panix.com> <5d2b9e9d-2289-44cd-a1fe-0630968d0439n@googlegroups.com>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <2ac56a12-e0bd-4d95-b1ae-805f53cc7be8n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
From: rja.carn...@excite.com (Robert Carnegie)
Injection-Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 14:07:24 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Received-Bytes: 2518
 by: Robert Carnegie - Fri, 10 Mar 2023 14:07 UTC

On Tuesday, 7 March 2023 at 17:08:34 UTC, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 7, 2023 at 10:57:31 AM UTC-5, James Nicoll wrote:
> > Apparently it's steam engine time for this issue: the Long Now
> > just had a piece:
> >
> > https://longnow.org/ideas/the-heresy-of-decline/
> A pretty decent article, which handily mentions James'
> own 2018 contribution to the field, without him having to
> blow his own horn:
>
> https://www.tor.com/2018/06/11/why-are-there-so-few-sff-books-about-the-very-real-issue-of-population-decline/
> > As a consequence of which, I just checked to see if my prefered
> > academic library has a copy of the _first_ edition of The Population
> > Bomb... which it does.
> >
> > It seems to me, though, that most demographic issues can be addressed
> > by significantly curtailing Savard's civil liberties on flimsy
> > pretexts.
> Are there ways to make having kids a much more viable and desirable
> choice than it is today?

I expect _Brave New World_ is not what you have in mind.
Lots of babies, no parents. Other drawbacks.

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

<EwHOL.289811$Ldj8.168987@fx47.iad>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=86152&group=rec.arts.sf.written#86152

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!news.uzoreto.com!peer02.ams4!peer.am4.highwinds-media.com!peer01.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!fx47.iad.POSTED!not-for-mail
X-newsreader: xrn 9.03-beta-14-64bit
Sender: scott@dragon.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
From: sco...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
Reply-To: slp53@pacbell.net
Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
References: <785b72aa-ac87-42da-9b87-510dee6db0b5n@googlegroups.com> <xgINL.250158$Olad.132666@fx35.iad> <tu7mt7$799$1@reader2.panix.com> <5d2b9e9d-2289-44cd-a1fe-0630968d0439n@googlegroups.com> <tu7rqt$g147$2@dont-email.me> <97fh0iham6htg66tsihhljlrgnf9svlcvj@4ax.com> <2697fc32-33f0-493b-98d4-a726831c1ea3n@googlegroups.com> <p83k0id63n1e2lldn9qt2a3gos0nso8h6c@4ax.com> <b655bc7a-24cd-4824-8bb9-1779cc6394bbn@googlegroups.com> <6jsOL.165626$jiuc.37652@fx44.iad> <tudorn$1l3ft$3@dont-email.me>
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <EwHOL.289811$Ldj8.168987@fx47.iad>
X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 14:54:28 UTC
Organization: UsenetServer - www.usenetserver.com
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 14:54:28 GMT
X-Received-Bytes: 2028
 by: Scott Lurndal - Fri, 10 Mar 2023 14:54 UTC

Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:
>On 3/9/2023 3:36 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> "pete...@gmail.com" <petertrei@gmail.com> writes:
>>> On Thursday, March 9, 2023 at 11:47:35=E2=80=AFAM UTC-5, Paul S Person wrot=
>>> e:
>> nstitutional.=20
>>>
>>> I'm confused - how does '5% across the board' apply only to the rich?
>>> [I'll put aside the just passed, and grossly unfair, 'millionaire tax' in M=
>>> A]
>>>
>>> Also, while it might not be constitutional at the state level, at the Feder=
>>> al
>>> level, 40% of households pay zero Federal income tax.
>>>
>>
>> While true, it's a bit misleading as those folks are generally hit harder
>> by consumption (sales), fuel, utility, telecommunications taxes, import tariffs, et alia.
>
>In Texas, we exempt sales taxes on unprepared food, water, and medical.
>That generally evens things out.

I doubt it.

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

<0001HW.29BB94B700ABC1D070000A5C038F@news.supernews.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=86162&group=rec.arts.sf.written#86162

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!news.uzoreto.com!tr1.eu1.usenetexpress.com!feeder.usenetexpress.com!tr1.iad1.usenetexpress.com!69.80.99.26.MISMATCH!Xl.tags.giganews.com!local-2.nntp.ord.giganews.com!nntp.supernews.com!news.supernews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 16:39:19 +0000
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 11:39:19 -0500
From: akwolf...@zoho.com (WolfFan)
Organization: the pack
Mime-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Hogwasher/5.24
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Message-ID: <0001HW.29BB94B700ABC1D070000A5C038F@news.supernews.com>
Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Reply-To: akwolffan@zoho.com
References: <785b72aa-ac87-42da-9b87-510dee6db0b5n@googlegroups.com> <tu62ru$4l04$1@dont-email.me> <xgINL.250158$Olad.132666@fx35.iad> <tu7mt7$799$1@reader2.panix.com> <5d2b9e9d-2289-44cd-a1fe-0630968d0439n@googlegroups.com> <tu7rqt$g147$2@dont-email.me> <97fh0iham6htg66tsihhljlrgnf9svlcvj@4ax.com> <2697fc32-33f0-493b-98d4-a726831c1ea3n@googlegroups.com> <p83k0id63n1e2lldn9qt2a3gos0nso8h6c@4ax.com> <b655bc7a-24cd-4824-8bb9-1779cc6394bbn@googlegroups.com> <6jsOL.165626$jiuc.37652@fx44.iad> <tudorn$1l3ft$3@dont-email.me>
Lines: 36
X-Trace: sv3-X8vzR2+g8S9odWdK4s07mKTYktzWRly7kcOyMokyZEOZchUvdRUCHNV5Q6yE8QipvJtNrjXxHZ4NCmc!plUmImNs0haX+yAzh8Z8+CpODNJ6T7KVJv/soY5sM7rFanhDu9pgr48gW9WgK25z26A1i2gYNfUt!Qz76DqLuAuO1Y+gjMXnom1vY
X-Complaints-To: www.supernews.com/docs/abuse.html
X-DMCA-Complaints-To: www.supernews.com/docs/dmca.html
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly
X-Postfilter: 1.3.40
 by: WolfFan - Fri, 10 Mar 2023 16:39 UTC

On Mar 9, 2023, Lynn McGuire wrote
(in article <tudorn$1l3ft$3@dont-email.me>):

> On 3/9/2023 3:36 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> > "pete...@gmail.com"<petertrei@gmail.com> writes:
> > > On Thursday, March 9, 2023 at 11:47:35=E2=80=AFAM UTC-5, Paul S Person
> > > wrot=
> > > e:
> > nstitutional.=20
> > >
> > > I'm confused - how does '5% across the board' apply only to the rich?
> > > [I'll put aside the just passed, and grossly unfair, 'millionaire tax' in
> > > M=
> > > A]
> > >
> > > Also, while it might not be constitutional at the state level, at the
> > > Feder=
> > > al
> > > level, 40% of households pay zero Federal income tax.
> >
> > While true, it's a bit misleading as those folks are generally hit harder
> > by consumption (sales), fuel, utility, telecommunications taxes, import
> > tariffs, et alia.
>
> In Texas, we exempt sales taxes on unprepared food, water, and medical.
> That generally evens things out.

Ah. The man who has $100 in his bank account pays the same 0% tax on his
$100,000 bill for cancer treatment that the guy who has $1,000,000,000 in his
bank acount... rather than having the bill paid by the government health
services and by _all_ taxpayers, ‘cause that’s communism. Seems fair.
>
>
> Lynn

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

<3fnm0iptciig48irkhf52lb1sgu11q1hh7@4ax.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=86164&group=rec.arts.sf.written#86164

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader01.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: psper...@old.netcom.invalid (Paul S Person)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 08:47:02 -0800
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 67
Message-ID: <3fnm0iptciig48irkhf52lb1sgu11q1hh7@4ax.com>
References: <785b72aa-ac87-42da-9b87-510dee6db0b5n@googlegroups.com> <tu62ru$4l04$1@dont-email.me> <xgINL.250158$Olad.132666@fx35.iad> <tu7mt7$799$1@reader2.panix.com> <5d2b9e9d-2289-44cd-a1fe-0630968d0439n@googlegroups.com> <tu7rqt$g147$2@dont-email.me> <97fh0iham6htg66tsihhljlrgnf9svlcvj@4ax.com> <6416d319-3a05-4bc8-ba5b-438fb7b12a9fn@googlegroups.com> <a23k0i5pusq0mie77tp5has14c5k4rkl2o@4ax.com> <HnoOL.1843313$GNG9.644433@fx18.iad>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Injection-Info: reader01.eternal-september.org; posting-host="22fe888892f2ea36c987362252b96a79";
logging-data="2156542"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1/xOh8PUv6lPQGBNg6dWdecOQ9e44oDCIc="
User-Agent: ForteAgent/8.00.32.1272
Cancel-Lock: sha1:7kyZa/O9KBnuNdQvGxGcf/arbxM=
 by: Paul S Person - Fri, 10 Mar 2023 16:47 UTC

On Thu, 09 Mar 2023 17:07:51 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

>Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
>>On Thu, 9 Mar 2023 07:20:07 -0800 (PST), "pete...@gmail.com"
>
>>>> >Given that the legislator in question is a right-wing nutjob I >>believe=20
>>>> >he is also trying to include language to restrict that to WASP >>couples,=20
>>>> >no interracial couples need apply.
>>>> The reason for suspecting that is obvious, but proof would be better.=20
>>>
>>>White households that own their dwelling: 74%
>>>Black households that own their dwelling: 44%
>>>
>>>When does 'overwhelming evidence' become 'proof'?
>>
>>Sadly, the item to be proved is that the State legislator in question
>>means, when he proposes a property tax deduction, to limit it to WASP
>>couples.
>
>The state in question is the nutty state of Texas.
>
>https://capitol.texas.gov/tlodocs/88R/billtext/html/HB02889I.htm

That's no surprise. But nice to know.

> "Qualifying married couple" means a man and a
> woman who are legally married to each other,
> neither of whom have ever been divorced."

Well, that's lets a very large number of people out, given the divorce
rates since divorce was made more easily available in the 50s.

>The credit is 100% if one has 10 children that meet the
>qualifications. Note that a child born (or adopted) out
>of wedlock does not qualify.

So, the Texas State Constitution does /not/ require everyone to pay
property tax at the same rate as everyone else? Why am I not
surprised?

>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryan_Slaton
>
> "Bryan Lee Slaton (born February 2, 1978)[1] is a former pastor...
>
> "On March 6, 2023, Slaton introduced HB 3596, the "Texas Independence Referendum
> Act" (TEXIT),[12] which would allow for a referendum to investigate the
> secession of Texas from the U.S."

An excellent idea. They should do it today. All their Representives
would then go home -- and the House would flip to the Democrats. (Yes
that's how small the Republican edge is -- and Texas has a /lot/ of
Representatives.)

We'd have to bring them back in eventually, of course, but I see no
reason to hurry -- and, after we do, about 40 years of territorial
status while they are "re-educated" would be a good idea.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

<5pnm0ihe4r7gd0ad7sjbt9lget9sqtpfqp@4ax.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=86165&group=rec.arts.sf.written#86165

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader01.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: psper...@old.netcom.invalid (Paul S Person)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 08:48:13 -0800
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 62
Message-ID: <5pnm0ihe4r7gd0ad7sjbt9lget9sqtpfqp@4ax.com>
References: <tu62ru$4l04$1@dont-email.me> <xgINL.250158$Olad.132666@fx35.iad> <tu7mt7$799$1@reader2.panix.com> <5d2b9e9d-2289-44cd-a1fe-0630968d0439n@googlegroups.com> <tu7rqt$g147$2@dont-email.me> <97fh0iham6htg66tsihhljlrgnf9svlcvj@4ax.com> <6416d319-3a05-4bc8-ba5b-438fb7b12a9fn@googlegroups.com> <a23k0i5pusq0mie77tp5has14c5k4rkl2o@4ax.com> <HnoOL.1843313$GNG9.644433@fx18.iad> <1b7331e6-d5db-4ccc-819d-580d67def5b0n@googlegroups.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Injection-Info: reader01.eternal-september.org; posting-host="22fe888892f2ea36c987362252b96a79";
logging-data="2156542"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1+P5rUSS0a/tUuqo/JVgvu2iWHVyYkTTlU="
User-Agent: ForteAgent/8.00.32.1272
Cancel-Lock: sha1:Q0KPY4F1pkYEhydrKeeLy7qNA+Q=
 by: Paul S Person - Fri, 10 Mar 2023 16:48 UTC

On Thu, 9 Mar 2023 12:07:00 -0800 (PST), "pete...@gmail.com"
<petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, March 9, 2023 at 12:07:55?PM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> Paul S Person <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
>> >On Thu, 9 Mar 2023 07:20:07 -0800 (PST), "pete...@gmail.com"
>> >>> >Given that the legislator in question is a right-wing nutjob I =
>> >believe=20
>> >>> >he is also trying to include language to restrict that to WASP =
>> >couples,=20
>> >>> >no interracial couples need apply.
>> >>> The reason for suspecting that is obvious, but proof would be better.=20
>> >>
>> >>White households that own their dwelling: 74%
>> >>Black households that own their dwelling: 44%
>> >>
>> >>When does 'overwhelming evidence' become 'proof'?
>> >
>> >Sadly, the item to be proved is that the State legislator in question
>> >means, when he proposes a property tax deduction, to limit it to WASP
>> >couples.
>> The state in question is the nutty state of Texas.
>>
>> https://capitol.texas.gov/tlodocs/88R/billtext/html/HB02889I.htm
>>
>>
>> "Qualifying married couple" means a man and a
>> woman who are legally married to each other,
>> neither of whom have ever been divorced."
>>
>> The credit is 100% if one has 10 children that meet the
>> qualifications. Note that a child born (or adopted) out
>> of wedlock does not qualify.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryan_Slaton
>>
>> "Bryan Lee Slaton (born February 2, 1978)[1] is a former pastor...
>>
>> "On March 6, 2023, Slaton introduced HB 3596, the "Texas Independence Referendum
>> Act" (TEXIT),[12] which would allow for a referendum to investigate the
>> secession of Texas from the U.S."
>
>I always wonder when I so whackazoid proposals like this from legislators,
>to what extent they are serious, and to what extent its just grandstanding
>for the base.

When the "base" invades the legislature and prevents it from doing
business, then it is serious.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

<7snm0i5jh0k9gp7vb780aqcq64c01th50r@4ax.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=86166&group=rec.arts.sf.written#86166

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Path: i2pn2.org!rocksolid2!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader01.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: psper...@old.netcom.invalid (Paul S Person)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 08:50:06 -0800
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 93
Message-ID: <7snm0i5jh0k9gp7vb780aqcq64c01th50r@4ax.com>
References: <785b72aa-ac87-42da-9b87-510dee6db0b5n@googlegroups.com> <tu62ru$4l04$1@dont-email.me> <xgINL.250158$Olad.132666@fx35.iad> <tu7mt7$799$1@reader2.panix.com> <5d2b9e9d-2289-44cd-a1fe-0630968d0439n@googlegroups.com> <tu7rqt$g147$2@dont-email.me> <97fh0iham6htg66tsihhljlrgnf9svlcvj@4ax.com> <6416d319-3a05-4bc8-ba5b-438fb7b12a9fn@googlegroups.com> <a23k0i5pusq0mie77tp5has14c5k4rkl2o@4ax.com> <tudgrl$1jqlt$1@dont-email.me>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Injection-Info: reader01.eternal-september.org; posting-host="22fe888892f2ea36c987362252b96a79";
logging-data="2156542"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX195/qpw8/tSHEotUCZUN7cd/1BY+VZKoqE="
User-Agent: ForteAgent/8.00.32.1272
Cancel-Lock: sha1:JBegMT3hdJiAdlpH3k929izkWwM=
 by: Paul S Person - Fri, 10 Mar 2023 16:50 UTC

On Thu, 9 Mar 2023 12:51:02 -0800, Dimensional Traveler
<dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:

>On 3/9/2023 8:44 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Thu, 9 Mar 2023 07:20:07 -0800 (PST), "pete...@gmail.com"
>> <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wednesday, March 8, 2023 at 12:35:13?PM UTC-5, Paul S Person wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 09:21:34 -0800, Dimensional Traveler
>>>> <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 3/7/2023 9:08 AM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Tuesday, March 7, 2023 at 10:57:31?AM UTC-5, James Nicoll wrote:
>>>>>>> Apparently it's steam engine time for this issue: the Long Now
>>>>>>> just had a piece:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://longnow.org/ideas/the-heresy-of-decline/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A pretty decent article, which handily mentions James'
>>>>>> own 2018 contribution to the field, without him having to
>>>>>> blow his own horn:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.tor.com/2018/06/11/why-are-there-so-few-sff-books-about-the-very-real-issue-of-population-decline/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As a consequence of which, I just checked to see if my prefered
>>>>>>> academic library has a copy of the _first_ edition of The Population
>>>>>>> Bomb... which it does.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It seems to me, though, that most demographic issues can be addressed
>>>>>>> by significantly curtailing Savard's civil liberties on flimsy
>>>>>>> pretexts.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Are there ways to make having kids a much more viable and desirable
>>>>>> choice than it is today?
>>>>>>
>>>>> At this point I am feeling an overwhelming need to point out that one of
>>>>> the American states has a local legislator proposing a bill to reduce a
>>>>> married, heterosexual couple's property taxes by 10% for each
>>>>> non-adopted child they have.
>>>> Given how property tax works, I don't think that's even possible.
>>>>
>>>> But I don't have to worry about that. Our State Constitution is quite
>>>> clear: taxes must be the same rate for all taxed entities in a given
>>>> taxing district.
>>>>
>>>> Which is why we don't have an Income Tax: it couldn't have different
>>>> rates for different income levels, so what's the point?
>>>>> Given that the legislator in question is a right-wing nutjob I believe
>>>>> he is also trying to include language to restrict that to WASP couples,
>>>>> no interracial couples need apply.
>>>> The reason for suspecting that is obvious, but proof would be better.
>>>
>>> White households that own their dwelling: 74%
>>> Black households that own their dwelling: 44%
>>>
>>> When does 'overwhelming evidence' become 'proof'?
>>
>> Sadly, the item to be proved is that the State legislator in question
>> means, when he proposes a property tax deduction, to limit it to WASP
>> couples.
>>
>> IOW, the assertion is that even the non-whites who own their homes
>> (not to mention non-WASPS, such as Poles, Irish, or Italians, and
>> non-hetero couples) would be excluded.
>>
>> So your statistics are ... not on point.
>
>As I recall I said I suspect the legislator would like to limit it to
>WASP couples. And non-hetero couples _are_ excluded from the provisions
>of the bill from what I read as the children would have to be the
>natural born offspring of the two parents.

Right. The issue I was addressing was whether it would be limited to
WASP couples -- an issue which % home ownership has no relevance to.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

<4vnm0ipbl7bhcg13q5281p5gdkd6ipq60e@4ax.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=86167&group=rec.arts.sf.written#86167

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader01.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: psper...@old.netcom.invalid (Paul S Person)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 08:53:39 -0800
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 101
Message-ID: <4vnm0ipbl7bhcg13q5281p5gdkd6ipq60e@4ax.com>
References: <785b72aa-ac87-42da-9b87-510dee6db0b5n@googlegroups.com> <tu62ru$4l04$1@dont-email.me> <xgINL.250158$Olad.132666@fx35.iad> <tu7mt7$799$1@reader2.panix.com> <5d2b9e9d-2289-44cd-a1fe-0630968d0439n@googlegroups.com> <tu7rqt$g147$2@dont-email.me> <97fh0iham6htg66tsihhljlrgnf9svlcvj@4ax.com> <2697fc32-33f0-493b-98d4-a726831c1ea3n@googlegroups.com> <p83k0id63n1e2lldn9qt2a3gos0nso8h6c@4ax.com> <robertaw-F66F13.09580709032023@news.individual.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Injection-Info: reader01.eternal-september.org; posting-host="22fe888892f2ea36c987362252b96a79";
logging-data="2156542"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX19Br3Ns4V8UkZz3LyfUu1KDAG1ljJ289hw="
User-Agent: ForteAgent/8.00.32.1272
Cancel-Lock: sha1:ZlOKgp108sxS3SBQADVJtGX+Ewc=
 by: Paul S Person - Fri, 10 Mar 2023 16:53 UTC

On Thu, 09 Mar 2023 09:58:07 -0800, Robert Woodward
<robertaw@drizzle.com> wrote:

>In article <p83k0id63n1e2lldn9qt2a3gos0nso8h6c@4ax.com>,
> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 9 Mar 2023 07:37:24 -0800 (PST), "pete...@gmail.com"
>> <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Wednesday, March 8, 2023 at 12:35:13?PM UTC-5, Paul S Person wrote:
>> >> On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 09:21:34 -0800, Dimensional Traveler
>> >> <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >On 3/7/2023 9:08 AM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >> >> On Tuesday, March 7, 2023 at 10:57:31?AM UTC-5, James Nicoll wrote:
>> >> >>> Apparently it's steam engine time for this issue: the Long Now
>> >> >>> just had a piece:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> https://longnow.org/ideas/the-heresy-of-decline/
>> >> >>
>> >> >> A pretty decent article, which handily mentions James'
>> >> >> own 2018 contribution to the field, without him having to
>> >> >> blow his own horn:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> https://www.tor.com/2018/06/11/why-are-there-so-few-sff-books-about-the-
>> >> >> very-real-issue-of-population-decline/
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> As a consequence of which, I just checked to see if my prefered
>> >> >>> academic library has a copy of the _first_ edition of The Population
>> >> >>> Bomb... which it does.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> It seems to me, though, that most demographic issues can be addressed
>> >> >>> by significantly curtailing Savard's civil liberties on flimsy
>> >> >>> pretexts.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Are there ways to make having kids a much more viable and desirable
>> >> >> choice than it is today?
>> >> >>
>> >> >At this point I am feeling an overwhelming need to point out that one of
>> >> >the American states has a local legislator proposing a bill to reduce a
>> >> >married, heterosexual couple's property taxes by 10% for each
>> >> >non-adopted child they have.
>> >> Given how property tax works, I don't think that's even possible.
>> >>
>> >> But I don't have to worry about that. Our State Constitution is quite
>> >> clear: taxes must be the same rate for all taxed entities in a given
>> >> taxing district.
>> >>
>> >> Which is why we don't have an Income Tax: it couldn't have different
>> >> rates for different income levels, so what's the point?
>> >
>> >It would raise revenue for the state. Taxes aren't always intended to
>> >address social issues. MA has a flat 5% income tax across the board, for
>> >both residents and non-residents. Some of my coworkers who live in NH
>> >but worked in MA, got a 5% instant raise when our group when 100% remote.
>>
>> That won't fly here; in fact, the form currently waiting for the State
>> Supreme Court to it unconstitutional only applies to the rich. IOW,
>> Most of Us would have a tax rate of 0%, and that ain't constitutional.
>>
>> Well, unless our Supreme Court says it is, of course.
>
>My somewhat cynical opinion is that the legislature, by calling it "an
>excise tax" was giving the Washington State Supreme Court an excuse to
>call it constitutional. Personally, I think if they passed a flat tax on
>non-wage income (e.g., rents, interest, dividends, capital gains, but
>not social security nor pensions) they would have had a better chance at
>WSSC approval (they would had been at least more honest).

Honesty isn't what they are after. Hell, getting it approved isn't
what they are after. /Publicity/ is what they are after.

I generally vote Democratic (as do a solid majority in my area), but
that doesn't mean I can't recognize left-wingnuttery when I see it.

This same Legislature has taken to passing bills trying to keep us on
DST all year. Sadly, that's not possible -- but keeping us /off/ of
DST all year would be perfectly possible. As I have said, there are
wing-nuts on /all/ sides.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

<c15520da-fd7e-494d-b020-fc9c01be4ed5n@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=86168&group=rec.arts.sf.written#86168

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
X-Received: by 2002:ac8:5e0a:0:b0:3bf:d1e1:aaf4 with SMTP id h10-20020ac85e0a000000b003bfd1e1aaf4mr7734459qtx.8.1678467592830;
Fri, 10 Mar 2023 08:59:52 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:33f1:b0:690:ef0d:d946 with SMTP id
i17-20020a05683033f100b00690ef0dd946mr8890806otu.3.1678467592455; Fri, 10 Mar
2023 08:59:52 -0800 (PST)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.blueworldhosting.com!feed1.usenet.blueworldhosting.com!peer01.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 08:59:52 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <3fnm0iptciig48irkhf52lb1sgu11q1hh7@4ax.com>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=73.89.70.238; posting-account=BUItcQoAAACgV97n05UTyfLcl1Rd4W33
NNTP-Posting-Host: 73.89.70.238
References: <785b72aa-ac87-42da-9b87-510dee6db0b5n@googlegroups.com>
<tu62ru$4l04$1@dont-email.me> <xgINL.250158$Olad.132666@fx35.iad>
<tu7mt7$799$1@reader2.panix.com> <5d2b9e9d-2289-44cd-a1fe-0630968d0439n@googlegroups.com>
<tu7rqt$g147$2@dont-email.me> <97fh0iham6htg66tsihhljlrgnf9svlcvj@4ax.com>
<6416d319-3a05-4bc8-ba5b-438fb7b12a9fn@googlegroups.com> <a23k0i5pusq0mie77tp5has14c5k4rkl2o@4ax.com>
<HnoOL.1843313$GNG9.644433@fx18.iad> <3fnm0iptciig48irkhf52lb1sgu11q1hh7@4ax.com>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <c15520da-fd7e-494d-b020-fc9c01be4ed5n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
From: petert...@gmail.com (pete...@gmail.com)
Injection-Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 16:59:52 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Received-Bytes: 4943
 by: pete...@gmail.com - Fri, 10 Mar 2023 16:59 UTC

On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 11:47:08 AM UTC-5, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Thu, 09 Mar 2023 17:07:51 GMT, sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
> wrote:
> >Paul S Person <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
> >>On Thu, 9 Mar 2023 07:20:07 -0800 (PST), "pete...@gmail.com"
> >
> >>>> >Given that the legislator in question is a right-wing nutjob I =
> >>believe=20
> >>>> >he is also trying to include language to restrict that to WASP =
> >>couples,=20
> >>>> >no interracial couples need apply.
> >>>> The reason for suspecting that is obvious, but proof would be better..=20
> >>>
> >>>White households that own their dwelling: 74%
> >>>Black households that own their dwelling: 44%
> >>>
> >>>When does 'overwhelming evidence' become 'proof'?
> >>
> >>Sadly, the item to be proved is that the State legislator in question
> >>means, when he proposes a property tax deduction, to limit it to WASP
> >>couples.
> >
> >The state in question is the nutty state of Texas.
> >
> >https://capitol.texas.gov/tlodocs/88R/billtext/html/HB02889I.htm
> That's no surprise. But nice to know.
> > "Qualifying married couple" means a man and a
> > woman who are legally married to each other,
> > neither of whom have ever been divorced."
> Well, that's lets a very large number of people out, given the divorce
> rates since divorce was made more easily available in the 50s.
> >The credit is 100% if one has 10 children that meet the
> >qualifications. Note that a child born (or adopted) out
> >of wedlock does not qualify.
> So, the Texas State Constitution does /not/ require everyone to pay
> property tax at the same rate as everyone else? Why am I not
> surprised?
> >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryan_Slaton
> >
> > "Bryan Lee Slaton (born February 2, 1978)[1] is a former pastor...
> >
> > "On March 6, 2023, Slaton introduced HB 3596, the "Texas Independence Referendum
> > Act" (TEXIT),[12] which would allow for a referendum to investigate the
> > secession of Texas from the U.S."
> An excellent idea. They should do it today. All their Representives
> would then go home -- and the House would flip to the Democrats. (Yes
> that's how small the Republican edge is -- and Texas has a /lot/ of
> Representatives.)
>
> We'd have to bring them back in eventually, of course, but I see no
> reason to hurry -- and, after we do, about 40 years of territorial
> status while they are "re-educated" would be a good idea.
> --
> "In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
> development was the disintegration, under Christian
> influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
> of family right."

I think we can conclude that this is just grandstanding for
the base, rather than a serious attempt raise the birthrate.
It's effectively restricted to too few people, ie the ones the base
think are the 'right kind', married, heterosexual, never divorced
couples who can afford to buy real estate (that is to say, mostly white).

It's also far too cheap to be effective. 10% of the average TX
property tax is under $400. That's not going to change a lot of
minds.

Pt

Pages:1234
server_pubkey.txt

rocksolid light 0.9.7
clearnet tor