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arts / rec.arts.sf.written / Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

SubjectAuthor
* What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?pete...@gmail.com
+* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Scott Lurndal
|`* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan
| `- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan
+- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?artyw2@yahoo.com
+- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?James Nicoll
+* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Andrew McDowell
|`* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Paul S Person
| +- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Dorothy J Heydt
| `- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Andrew McDowell
+* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Quadibloc
|`* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Robert Carnegie
| `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?William Hyde
|  `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
|   `- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?William Hyde
+* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
|`* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?William Hyde
| `- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan
+* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?David Johnston
|`* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Scott Lurndal
| +* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?James Nicoll
| |`* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?pete...@gmail.com
| | +* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Dimensional Traveler
| | |+- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?pete...@gmail.com
| | |`* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Paul S Person
| | | +- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Dimensional Traveler
| | | +* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?pete...@gmail.com
| | | |`* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Paul S Person
| | | | +* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Scott Lurndal
| | | | |+* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?pete...@gmail.com
| | | | ||+- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Dimensional Traveler
| | | | ||`- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Paul S Person
| | | | |+- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
| | | | |`* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Paul S Person
| | | | | +* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?pete...@gmail.com
| | | | | |`- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Paul S Person
| | | | | +- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?The Horny Goat
| | | | | +* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Jay E. Morris
| | | | | |`* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Paul S Person
| | | | | | +- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
| | | | | | `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?The Horny Goat
| | | | | |  `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Scott Lurndal
| | | | | |   `- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?The Horny Goat
| | | | | `- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
| | | | `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Dimensional Traveler
| | | |  `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Paul S Person
| | | |   `- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?pete...@gmail.com
| | | `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?pete...@gmail.com
| | |  `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Paul S Person
| | |   +* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Robert Woodward
| | |   |`- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Paul S Person
| | |   `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?pete...@gmail.com
| | |    `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Scott Lurndal
| | |     `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
| | |      +* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Scott Lurndal
| | |      |+* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Paul S Person
| | |      ||`* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?James Nicoll
| | |      || `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
| | |      ||  `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?William Hyde
| | |      ||   `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
| | |      ||    `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?William Hyde
| | |      ||     +- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Paul S Person
| | |      ||     `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
| | |      ||      +* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Scott Lurndal
| | |      ||      |+* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Paul S Person
| | |      ||      ||`- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
| | |      ||      |+* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Dimensional Traveler
| | |      ||      ||`* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?rkshullat
| | |      ||      || `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
| | |      ||      ||  `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Dimensional Traveler
| | |      ||      ||   +* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Paul S Person
| | |      ||      ||   |+* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Dimensional Traveler
| | |      ||      ||   ||+* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Dorothy J Heydt
| | |      ||      ||   |||+- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Dimensional Traveler
| | |      ||      ||   |||`- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
| | |      ||      ||   ||`* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
| | |      ||      ||   || `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?pete...@gmail.com
| | |      ||      ||   ||  +* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
| | |      ||      ||   ||  |`* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?pete...@gmail.com
| | |      ||      ||   ||  | `- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Dimensional Traveler
| | |      ||      ||   ||  `- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
| | |      ||      ||   |`* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?pete...@gmail.com
| | |      ||      ||   | +- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
| | |      ||      ||   | `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Paul S Person
| | |      ||      ||   |  `- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
| | |      ||      ||   `- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Jay E. Morris
| | |      ||      |`- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
| | |      ||      `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?William Hyde
| | |      ||       `- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
| | |      |`- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Dimensional Traveler
| | |      `- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?WolfFan
| | +* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?James Nicoll
| | |`- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lenona
| | +- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Robert Carnegie
| | `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Joy Beeson
| |  `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Magewolf
| |   `- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Dimensional Traveler
| `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?David Johnston
|  `- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Scott Lurndal
`- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lee Gleason

Pages:1234
Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

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Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
From: petert...@gmail.com (pete...@gmail.com)
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 by: pete...@gmail.com - Fri, 10 Mar 2023 17:07 UTC

On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 11:50:10 AM UTC-5, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Thu, 9 Mar 2023 12:51:02 -0800, Dimensional Traveler
> <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
>
> >On 3/9/2023 8:44 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
> >> On Thu, 9 Mar 2023 07:20:07 -0800 (PST), "pete...@gmail.com"
> >> <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Wednesday, March 8, 2023 at 12:35:13?PM UTC-5, Paul S Person wrote:
> >>>> On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 09:21:34 -0800, Dimensional Traveler
> >>>> <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On 3/7/2023 9:08 AM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>> On Tuesday, March 7, 2023 at 10:57:31?AM UTC-5, James Nicoll wrote:
> >>>>>>> Apparently it's steam engine time for this issue: the Long Now
> >>>>>>> just had a piece:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> https://longnow.org/ideas/the-heresy-of-decline/
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> A pretty decent article, which handily mentions James'
> >>>>>> own 2018 contribution to the field, without him having to
> >>>>>> blow his own horn:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> https://www.tor.com/2018/06/11/why-are-there-so-few-sff-books-about-the-very-real-issue-of-population-decline/
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> As a consequence of which, I just checked to see if my prefered
> >>>>>>> academic library has a copy of the _first_ edition of The Population
> >>>>>>> Bomb... which it does.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> It seems to me, though, that most demographic issues can be addressed
> >>>>>>> by significantly curtailing Savard's civil liberties on flimsy
> >>>>>>> pretexts.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Are there ways to make having kids a much more viable and desirable
> >>>>>> choice than it is today?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> At this point I am feeling an overwhelming need to point out that one of
> >>>>> the American states has a local legislator proposing a bill to reduce a
> >>>>> married, heterosexual couple's property taxes by 10% for each
> >>>>> non-adopted child they have.
> >>>> Given how property tax works, I don't think that's even possible.
> >>>>
> >>>> But I don't have to worry about that. Our State Constitution is quite
> >>>> clear: taxes must be the same rate for all taxed entities in a given
> >>>> taxing district.
> >>>>
> >>>> Which is why we don't have an Income Tax: it couldn't have different
> >>>> rates for different income levels, so what's the point?
> >>>>> Given that the legislator in question is a right-wing nutjob I believe
> >>>>> he is also trying to include language to restrict that to WASP couples,
> >>>>> no interracial couples need apply.
> >>>> The reason for suspecting that is obvious, but proof would be better..
> >>>
> >>> White households that own their dwelling: 74%
> >>> Black households that own their dwelling: 44%
> >>>
> >>> When does 'overwhelming evidence' become 'proof'?
> >>
> >> Sadly, the item to be proved is that the State legislator in question
> >> means, when he proposes a property tax deduction, to limit it to WASP
> >> couples.
> >>
> >> IOW, the assertion is that even the non-whites who own their homes
> >> (not to mention non-WASPS, such as Poles, Irish, or Italians, and
> >> non-hetero couples) would be excluded.
> >>
> >> So your statistics are ... not on point.
> >
> >As I recall I said I suspect the legislator would like to limit it to
> >WASP couples. And non-hetero couples _are_ excluded from the provisions
> >of the bill from what I read as the children would have to be the
> >natural born offspring of the two parents.
> Right. The issue I was addressing was whether it would be limited to
> WASP couples -- an issue which % home ownership has no relevance to.

An explicitly whites-only bill wouldn't pass today even in TX. The proposer
is using home ownership as a proxy instead.

But the bill is ineffective anyway. A few hundred bucks/year/kid isn't going
to change anyone's family plans.

Pt

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

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From: psper...@old.netcom.invalid (Paul S Person)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 09:17:21 -0800
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 by: Paul S Person - Fri, 10 Mar 2023 17:17 UTC

On Fri, 10 Mar 2023 14:54:28 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

>Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:
>>On 3/9/2023 3:36 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>> "pete...@gmail.com" <petertrei@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> On Thursday, March 9, 2023 at 11:47:35=E2=80=AFAM UTC-5, Paul S Person wrot>>>> e:
>>> nstitutional.=20
>>>>
>>>> I'm confused - how does '5% across the board' apply only to the rich?
>>>> [I'll put aside the just passed, and grossly unfair, 'millionaire tax' in M>>>> A]
>>>>
>>>> Also, while it might not be constitutional at the state level, at the Feder>>>> al
>>>> level, 40% of households pay zero Federal income tax.
>>>>
>>>
>>> While true, it's a bit misleading as those folks are generally hit harder
>>> by consumption (sales), fuel, utility, telecommunications taxes, import tariffs, et alia.
>>
>>In Texas, we exempt sales taxes on unprepared food, water, and medical.
>>That generally evens things out.
>
>I doubt it.

Well, I suppose it's /possible/ that people don't wear clothing or
have utilities in Texas.

But even then ... your doubt is valid.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

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From: jdnic...@panix.com (James Nicoll)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 17:29:02 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: James Nicoll - Fri, 10 Mar 2023 17:29 UTC

In article <pdom0ih64j66amff3mbnojki8pog8sg5vt@4ax.com>,
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>
>Well, I suppose it's /possible/ that people don't wear clothing or
>have utilities in Texas.

I don't know about the first but the news suggests utilities are
at best a sometimes thing in Texas.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

<tufrnr$22f42$2@dont-email.me>

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From: dtra...@sonic.net (Dimensional Traveler)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 10:09:01 -0800
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Dimensional Traveler - Fri, 10 Mar 2023 18:09 UTC

On 3/10/2023 6:54 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:
>> On 3/9/2023 3:36 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>> "pete...@gmail.com" <petertrei@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> On Thursday, March 9, 2023 at 11:47:35=E2=80=AFAM UTC-5, Paul S Person wrot=
>>>> e:
>>> nstitutional.=20
>>>>
>>>> I'm confused - how does '5% across the board' apply only to the rich?
>>>> [I'll put aside the just passed, and grossly unfair, 'millionaire tax' in M=
>>>> A]
>>>>
>>>> Also, while it might not be constitutional at the state level, at the Feder=
>>>> al
>>>> level, 40% of households pay zero Federal income tax.
>>>>
>>>
>>> While true, it's a bit misleading as those folks are generally hit harder
>>> by consumption (sales), fuel, utility, telecommunications taxes, import tariffs, et alia.
>>
>> In Texas, we exempt sales taxes on unprepared food, water, and medical.
>> That generally evens things out.
>
> I doubt it.

And even if that were possible it couldn't happen because retailers with
multiple outlets charge higher prices in the outlets in poor
neighborhoods. They usually claim it is to offset increased theft in
those areas.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

<tugati$24psm$1@dont-email.me>

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From: lynnmcgu...@gmail.com (Lynn McGuire)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 16:28:02 -0600
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 by: Lynn McGuire - Fri, 10 Mar 2023 22:28 UTC

On 3/10/2023 11:29 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <pdom0ih64j66amff3mbnojki8pog8sg5vt@4ax.com>,
> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> Well, I suppose it's /possible/ that people don't wear clothing or
>> have utilities in Texas.
>
> I don't know about the first but the news suggests utilities are
> at best a sometimes thing in Texas.

Just for 96 hours in Feb 2021 as the electricity was rationed to those
who needed it the most during the 47% shortfall in generation (45,000
MW) versus demand (85,000 MW). And the biennial hurricanes.

We did have natural gas at my house during the big freeze so we now have
a natural gas fueled whole house electric generator. We did not notice
that our neighborhood had lost power in Sep 2021 when the hurricane
passed overhead since the generator started up automatically. The next
day we lost power for four hours while they reran some of the power
lines that failed during the hurricane. But the generator automagically
started and ran again, we had no idea the power was down for our
neighborhood.

Lynn

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

<lecp0il0feup9u2dr7f0aahrat91e4faks@4ax.com>

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From: psper...@old.netcom.invalid (Paul S Person)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2023 08:56:03 -0800
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 by: Paul S Person - Sat, 11 Mar 2023 16:56 UTC

On Fri, 10 Mar 2023 08:59:52 -0800 (PST), "pete...@gmail.com"
<petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 11:47:08?AM UTC-5, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Thu, 09 Mar 2023 17:07:51 GMT, sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
>> wrote:
>> >Paul S Person <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
>> >>On Thu, 9 Mar 2023 07:20:07 -0800 (PST), "pete...@gmail.com"
>> >
>> >>>> >Given that the legislator in question is a right-wing nutjob I =
>> >>believe=20
>> >>>> >he is also trying to include language to restrict that to WASP =
>> >>couples,=20
>> >>>> >no interracial couples need apply.
>> >>>> The reason for suspecting that is obvious, but proof would be better.=20
>> >>>
>> >>>White households that own their dwelling: 74%
>> >>>Black households that own their dwelling: 44%
>> >>>
>> >>>When does 'overwhelming evidence' become 'proof'?
>> >>
>> >>Sadly, the item to be proved is that the State legislator in question
>> >>means, when he proposes a property tax deduction, to limit it to WASP
>> >>couples.
>> >
>> >The state in question is the nutty state of Texas.
>> >
>> >https://capitol.texas.gov/tlodocs/88R/billtext/html/HB02889I.htm
>> That's no surprise. But nice to know.
>> > "Qualifying married couple" means a man and a
>> > woman who are legally married to each other,
>> > neither of whom have ever been divorced."
>> Well, that's lets a very large number of people out, given the divorce
>> rates since divorce was made more easily available in the 50s.
>> >The credit is 100% if one has 10 children that meet the
>> >qualifications. Note that a child born (or adopted) out
>> >of wedlock does not qualify.
>> So, the Texas State Constitution does /not/ require everyone to pay
>> property tax at the same rate as everyone else? Why am I not
>> surprised?
>> >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryan_Slaton
>> >
>> > "Bryan Lee Slaton (born February 2, 1978)[1] is a former pastor...
>> >
>> > "On March 6, 2023, Slaton introduced HB 3596, the "Texas Independence Referendum
>> > Act" (TEXIT),[12] which would allow for a referendum to investigate the
>> > secession of Texas from the U.S."
>> An excellent idea. They should do it today. All their Representives
>> would then go home -- and the House would flip to the Democrats. (Yes
>> that's how small the Republican edge is -- and Texas has a /lot/ of
>> Representatives.)
>>
>> We'd have to bring them back in eventually, of course, but I see no
>> reason to hurry -- and, after we do, about 40 years of territorial
>> status while they are "re-educated" would be a good idea.
>> --
>> "In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
>> development was the disintegration, under Christian
>> influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
>> of family right."
>
>I think we can conclude that this is just grandstanding for
>the base, rather than a serious attempt raise the birthrate.
>It's effectively restricted to too few people, ie the ones the base
>think are the 'right kind', married, heterosexual, never divorced
>couples who can afford to buy real estate (that is to say, mostly white).

AFAIK, RC (and others with strictly conditional standards of conduct
for staff and faculty) schools aren't firing people for being
divorced, or even divorced and remarried, as they were in, say, the
'50s.

They aren't even firing homosexuals, as such.

No, now you have to commit gay marriage to be fired.

The very definition of retreat.

>It's also far too cheap to be effective. 10% of the average TX
>property tax is under $400. That's not going to change a lot of
>minds.

Well, not if they know how to compute the amount they would receive.
But would those willing and eligible be able to do that?
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

<e4c67b26-62f6-4293-b7a1-f9e8becb1ed6n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
From: wthyde1...@gmail.com (William Hyde)
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 by: William Hyde - Sat, 11 Mar 2023 19:19 UTC

On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 5:28:07 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 3/10/2023 11:29 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
> > In article <pdom0ih64j66amff3...@4ax.com>,
> > Paul S Person <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
> >>
> >> Well, I suppose it's /possible/ that people don't wear clothing or
> >> have utilities in Texas.
> >
> > I don't know about the first but the news suggests utilities are
> > at best a sometimes thing in Texas.
> Just for 96 hours in Feb 2021 as the electricity was rationed to those
> who needed it the most during the 47% shortfall in generation (45,000
> MW) versus demand (85,000 MW). And the biennial hurricanes.

When I first moved to Texas I was shocked at the frequency of power outages,
even accounting for the occasional hurricane remnant hitting College Station.

However, we have since caught up with you.

William Hyde

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

<tuimou$2lk56$1@dont-email.me>

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From: lynnmcgu...@gmail.com (Lynn McGuire)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2023 14:02:36 -0600
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 by: Lynn McGuire - Sat, 11 Mar 2023 20:02 UTC

On 3/11/2023 1:19 PM, William Hyde wrote:
> On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 5:28:07 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> On 3/10/2023 11:29 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
>>> In article <pdom0ih64j66amff3...@4ax.com>,
>>> Paul S Person <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Well, I suppose it's /possible/ that people don't wear clothing or
>>>> have utilities in Texas.
>>>
>>> I don't know about the first but the news suggests utilities are
>>> at best a sometimes thing in Texas.
>> Just for 96 hours in Feb 2021 as the electricity was rationed to those
>> who needed it the most during the 47% shortfall in generation (45,000
>> MW) versus demand (85,000 MW). And the biennial hurricanes.
>
> When I first moved to Texas I was shocked at the frequency of power outages,
> even accounting for the occasional hurricane remnant hitting College Station.
>
> However, we have since caught up with you.
>
> William Hyde

We, as in Canada ?

If so, sorry. Life is difficult and constant unlimited electricity
makes it easier.

Lynn

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

<fbe24618-bb48-478d-b5af-456efffee0cdn@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
From: wthyde1...@gmail.com (William Hyde)
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 by: William Hyde - Sun, 12 Mar 2023 00:50 UTC

On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 3:02:43 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 3/11/2023 1:19 PM, William Hyde wrote:
> > On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 5:28:07 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> >> On 3/10/2023 11:29 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
> >>> In article <pdom0ih64j66amff3...@4ax.com>,
> >>> Paul S Person <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Well, I suppose it's /possible/ that people don't wear clothing or
> >>>> have utilities in Texas.
> >>>
> >>> I don't know about the first but the news suggests utilities are
> >>> at best a sometimes thing in Texas.
> >> Just for 96 hours in Feb 2021 as the electricity was rationed to those
> >> who needed it the most during the 47% shortfall in generation (45,000
> >> MW) versus demand (85,000 MW). And the biennial hurricanes.
> >
> > When I first moved to Texas I was shocked at the frequency of power outages,
> > even accounting for the occasional hurricane remnant hitting College Station.
> >
> > However, we have since caught up with you.
> >
> > William Hyde
> We, as in Canada ?

Ontario, anyway. The problem is familiar, aging infrastructure, no political benefit in being
the one to fix it. Because look what we did! Tax Cuts! Windmills!

To be fair, 2023 has been good so far, at least in my area. But an earlier round of
tax cuts led to thousands of people being poisoned, seven deaths and quite a few
people with permanent disabilities. But that was water, not hydro.
>
> If so, sorry. Life is difficult and constant unlimited electricity
> makes it easier.

I have lights and books. The house doesn't get below freezing, or not much.. It could be
far worse.

William Hyde

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

<l54r0it7cg9mhajhaatsl3ipaea3gevukd@4ax.com>

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From: lcra...@home.ca (The Horny Goat)
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Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
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 by: The Horny Goat - Sun, 12 Mar 2023 08:52 UTC

On Fri, 10 Mar 2023 08:47:02 -0800, Paul S Person
<psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

>On Thu, 09 Mar 2023 17:07:51 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
>wrote:
>
>So, the Texas State Constitution does /not/ require everyone to pay
>property tax at the same rate as everyone else? Why am I not
>surprised?

I'm obviously not a Texan but in our jurisdiction we have both
property taxes and a 'home owners' grant'. The taxes are all at the
same rate while the HOG is a fixed rate though houses assessed over a
certain figure lose part of their 'grant' for each $1000 of assessed
value. Can't remember the point at which the grant is reduced to zero
but it's in the $2 - 2.5 million range.

Then you get a fixed levy for utilities and schools (the former a
fixed levy, the latter based on your assessment - both these two go to
separate agencies but are colected by the municipality)

We also have a non-resident tax which is a surtax for those who don't
occupy their house and is aimed at "investors" who own multiple homes.
(A substantial number of which are foreigners particularly from China
- this is a form of money laundering and tax evasion which they
apparently can't ban but CAN tax so they do. No question there's one
suburb across town which has slum level average incomes but $2 - 2.5m
average houses. What's happening is that the husband lives overseas
and sends $$$ to his wife and kids living in Canada who pay token
taxes while tax evading by not declaring his foreign income while wife
and kids draw social benefits..... )

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

<0rtr0i9q86k90b0rp55bm2gioa70dfcon8@4ax.com>

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Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2023 09:06:38 -0700
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 by: Paul S Person - Sun, 12 Mar 2023 16:06 UTC

On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 16:50:48 -0800 (PST), William Hyde
<wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 3:02:43?PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> On 3/11/2023 1:19 PM, William Hyde wrote:
>> > On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 5:28:07?PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> >> On 3/10/2023 11:29 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
>> >>> In article <pdom0ih64j66amff3...@4ax.com>,
>> >>> Paul S Person <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Well, I suppose it's /possible/ that people don't wear clothing or
>> >>>> have utilities in Texas.
>> >>>
>> >>> I don't know about the first but the news suggests utilities are
>> >>> at best a sometimes thing in Texas.
>> >> Just for 96 hours in Feb 2021 as the electricity was rationed to those
>> >> who needed it the most during the 47% shortfall in generation (45,000
>> >> MW) versus demand (85,000 MW). And the biennial hurricanes.
>> >
>> > When I first moved to Texas I was shocked at the frequency of power outages,
>> > even accounting for the occasional hurricane remnant hitting College Station.
>> >
>> > However, we have since caught up with you.
>> >
>> > William Hyde
>> We, as in Canada ?
>
>Ontario, anyway. The problem is familiar, aging infrastructure, no political benefit in being
>the one to fix it. Because look what we did! Tax Cuts! Windmills!
>
>To be fair, 2023 has been good so far, at least in my area. But an earlier round of
>tax cuts led to thousands of people being poisoned, seven deaths and quite a few
>people with permanent disabilities. But that was water, not hydro.
>>
>> If so, sorry. Life is difficult and constant unlimited electricity
>> makes it easier.
>
>I have lights and books. The house doesn't get below freezing, or not much. It could be
>far worse.

Our electric utility is talking about improving and strengthening the
infrastructure and increasing the (non-fossil-fuel [1]) supply to
accomodae the switch to heat pumps and home-charged electric cars.

Greater demand requires greater supply. And an infrastructure that
won't break down trying to provide it.

Of course, the rates will go up.

[1] Most of ours is non-fossil-fuel; but then, we have hydro power and
wind/sun now as well. When we have to buy it from others, of course,
we take what we can get without worrying about how it is generated.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

<tulgch$38088$1@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=86310&group=rec.arts.sf.written#86310

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From: morr...@epsilon3.comcon (Jay E. Morris)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2023 16:31:59 -0500
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 by: Jay E. Morris - Sun, 12 Mar 2023 21:31 UTC

On 3/10/2023 10:47 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
> So, the Texas State Constitution does/not/ require everyone to pay
> property tax at the same rate as everyone else? Why am I not
> surprised?

The Texas State constitution does not require anyone to pay property tax.

From https://comptroller.texas.gov/taxes/property-tax/basics.php

The Texas Constitution and statutory law authorizes local governments to
collect the tax. The state does not set tax rates, collect taxes or
settle disputes between you and your local governments.

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

<tulurg$3cine$4@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=86318&group=rec.arts.sf.written#86318

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From: lynnmcgu...@gmail.com (Lynn McGuire)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2023 20:38:55 -0500
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 by: Lynn McGuire - Mon, 13 Mar 2023 01:38 UTC

On 3/10/2023 10:47 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Thu, 09 Mar 2023 17:07:51 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
> wrote:
>
>> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
>>> On Thu, 9 Mar 2023 07:20:07 -0800 (PST), "pete...@gmail.com"
>>
>>>>>> Given that the legislator in question is a right-wing nutjob I =
>>> believe=20
>>>>>> he is also trying to include language to restrict that to WASP =
>>> couples,=20
>>>>>> no interracial couples need apply.
>>>>> The reason for suspecting that is obvious, but proof would be better.=20
>>>>
>>>> White households that own their dwelling: 74%
>>>> Black households that own their dwelling: 44%
>>>>
>>>> When does 'overwhelming evidence' become 'proof'?
>>>
>>> Sadly, the item to be proved is that the State legislator in question
>>> means, when he proposes a property tax deduction, to limit it to WASP
>>> couples.
>>
>> The state in question is the nutty state of Texas.
>>
>> https://capitol.texas.gov/tlodocs/88R/billtext/html/HB02889I.htm
>
> That's no surprise. But nice to know.
>
>> "Qualifying married couple" means a man and a
>> woman who are legally married to each other,
>> neither of whom have ever been divorced."
>
> Well, that's lets a very large number of people out, given the divorce
> rates since divorce was made more easily available in the 50s.
>
>> The credit is 100% if one has 10 children that meet the
>> qualifications. Note that a child born (or adopted) out
>> of wedlock does not qualify.
>
> So, the Texas State Constitution does /not/ require everyone to pay
> property tax at the same rate as everyone else? Why am I not
> surprised?
>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryan_Slaton
>>
>> "Bryan Lee Slaton (born February 2, 1978)[1] is a former pastor...
>>
>> "On March 6, 2023, Slaton introduced HB 3596, the "Texas Independence Referendum
>> Act" (TEXIT),[12] which would allow for a referendum to investigate the
>> secession of Texas from the U.S."
>
> An excellent idea. They should do it today. All their Representives
> would then go home -- and the House would flip to the Democrats. (Yes
> that's how small the Republican edge is -- and Texas has a /lot/ of
> Representatives.)
>
> We'd have to bring them back in eventually, of course, but I see no
> reason to hurry -- and, after we do, about 40 years of territorial
> status while they are "re-educated" would be a good idea.

Texas does not have a state property tax. Or a state income tax. Or a
state death tax. Or a state wealth tax.

All property taxes in Texas are from the local governments: county,
school, city, levee, MUD, hospital, flood, etc. The state does regulate
how much the school districts can charge for their O&M (operations and
maintenance) budgets. And Texas regulates how much the taxing entities
can give a property tax credit for homeowners.

Lynn

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

<tum0da$3d20m$2@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=86322&group=rec.arts.sf.written#86322

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From: lynnmcgu...@gmail.com (Lynn McGuire)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2023 21:05:29 -0500
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 by: Lynn McGuire - Mon, 13 Mar 2023 02:05 UTC

On 3/11/2023 6:50 PM, William Hyde wrote:
> On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 3:02:43 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> On 3/11/2023 1:19 PM, William Hyde wrote:
>>> On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 5:28:07 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>> On 3/10/2023 11:29 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
>>>>> In article <pdom0ih64j66amff3...@4ax.com>,
>>>>> Paul S Person <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, I suppose it's /possible/ that people don't wear clothing or
>>>>>> have utilities in Texas.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't know about the first but the news suggests utilities are
>>>>> at best a sometimes thing in Texas.
>>>> Just for 96 hours in Feb 2021 as the electricity was rationed to those
>>>> who needed it the most during the 47% shortfall in generation (45,000
>>>> MW) versus demand (85,000 MW). And the biennial hurricanes.
>>>
>>> When I first moved to Texas I was shocked at the frequency of power outages,
>>> even accounting for the occasional hurricane remnant hitting College Station.
>>>
>>> However, we have since caught up with you.
>>>
>>> William Hyde
>> We, as in Canada ?
>
> Ontario, anyway. The problem is familiar, aging infrastructure, no political benefit in being
> the one to fix it. Because look what we did! Tax Cuts! Windmills!
>
> To be fair, 2023 has been good so far, at least in my area. But an earlier round of
> tax cuts led to thousands of people being poisoned, seven deaths and quite a few
> people with permanent disabilities. But that was water, not hydro.
>>
>> If so, sorry. Life is difficult and constant unlimited electricity
>> makes it easier.
>
> I have lights and books. The house doesn't get below freezing, or not much. It could be
> far worse.
>
> William Hyde

Windmills suck in Texas. The blasted things freeze up below 25 F in
Texas since the owners did not install heaters. And the wind stops
blowing when the temperature goes above 105 F. Useless. The windmill
output dropped from 38,000 MW to 1,500 MW during the first week ice
storm in Texas for 96 hours.

Solar in Texas does not work when it is covered by ice. Which, happens
more frequently than one realizes. Like, almost the entire first week
in February of this year for the entire central portion of Texas. The
solar output dropped from 12,000 MW peak to 1,500 MW peak for 96 hours
during and after the ice storm.

Lynn

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

<57HPL.67603$qpNc.7891@fx03.iad>

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https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=86334&group=rec.arts.sf.written#86334

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 by: Scott Lurndal - Mon, 13 Mar 2023 15:16 UTC

Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:
>On 3/11/2023 6:50 PM, William Hyde wrote:
>> On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 3:02:43 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>> On 3/11/2023 1:19 PM, William Hyde wrote:
>>>> On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 5:28:07 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>> On 3/10/2023 11:29 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
>>>>>> In article <pdom0ih64j66amff3...@4ax.com>,
>>>>>> Paul S Person <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well, I suppose it's /possible/ that people don't wear clothing or
>>>>>>> have utilities in Texas.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't know about the first but the news suggests utilities are
>>>>>> at best a sometimes thing in Texas.
>>>>> Just for 96 hours in Feb 2021 as the electricity was rationed to those
>>>>> who needed it the most during the 47% shortfall in generation (45,000
>>>>> MW) versus demand (85,000 MW). And the biennial hurricanes.
>>>>
>>>> When I first moved to Texas I was shocked at the frequency of power outages,
>>>> even accounting for the occasional hurricane remnant hitting College Station.
>>>>
>>>> However, we have since caught up with you.
>>>>
>>>> William Hyde
>>> We, as in Canada ?
>>
>> Ontario, anyway. The problem is familiar, aging infrastructure, no political benefit in being
>> the one to fix it. Because look what we did! Tax Cuts! Windmills!
>>
>> To be fair, 2023 has been good so far, at least in my area. But an earlier round of
>> tax cuts led to thousands of people being poisoned, seven deaths and quite a few
>> people with permanent disabilities. But that was water, not hydro.
>>>
>>> If so, sorry. Life is difficult and constant unlimited electricity
>>> makes it easier.
>>
>> I have lights and books. The house doesn't get below freezing, or not much. It could be
>> far worse.
>>
>> William Hyde
>
>Windmills suck in Texas. The blasted things freeze up below 25 F in

So do texas fossil fuel power plants, apparantly.

"Natural gas power generating facilities had equipment freeze up and faced shortages of fuel"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Texas_power_crisis

Note that northern plants don't have problems with freezing weather;
for fossil fuels _or_ wind. Wind is huge in Iowa, for instance.

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

<u7hu0i5f7lmbrlq365r26cd665fg4lqrjr@4ax.com>

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From: psper...@old.netcom.invalid (Paul S Person)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2023 08:46:12 -0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Paul S Person - Mon, 13 Mar 2023 15:46 UTC

On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 16:31:59 -0500, "Jay E. Morris"
<morrisj@epsilon3.comcon> wrote:

>On 3/10/2023 10:47 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>> So, the Texas State Constitution does/not/ require everyone to pay
>> property tax at the same rate as everyone else? Why am I not
>> surprised?
>
>The Texas State constitution does not require anyone to pay property tax.

Too bad the assertion was about requiring the /rate paid/ to be the
same for everyone (in the same taxing jurisdiction).

> From https://comptroller.texas.gov/taxes/property-tax/basics.php
>
>The Texas Constitution and statutory law authorizes local governments to
>collect the tax. The state does not set tax rates, collect taxes or
>settle disputes between you and your local governments.

No State property tax?
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

<adhu0it88ient977k1rqhklickktrkeddo@4ax.com>

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https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=86338&group=rec.arts.sf.written#86338

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From: psper...@old.netcom.invalid (Paul S Person)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2023 08:48:33 -0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Paul S Person - Mon, 13 Mar 2023 15:48 UTC

On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 15:16:17 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

>Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:
>>On 3/11/2023 6:50 PM, William Hyde wrote:
>>> On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 3:02:43 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>> On 3/11/2023 1:19 PM, William Hyde wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 5:28:07 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/10/2023 11:29 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
>>>>>>> In article <pdom0ih64j66amff3...@4ax.com>,
>>>>>>> Paul S Person <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well, I suppose it's /possible/ that people don't wear clothing or
>>>>>>>> have utilities in Texas.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't know about the first but the news suggests utilities are
>>>>>>> at best a sometimes thing in Texas.
>>>>>> Just for 96 hours in Feb 2021 as the electricity was rationed to those
>>>>>> who needed it the most during the 47% shortfall in generation (45,000
>>>>>> MW) versus demand (85,000 MW). And the biennial hurricanes.
>>>>>
>>>>> When I first moved to Texas I was shocked at the frequency of power outages,
>>>>> even accounting for the occasional hurricane remnant hitting College Station.
>>>>>
>>>>> However, we have since caught up with you.
>>>>>
>>>>> William Hyde
>>>> We, as in Canada ?
>>>
>>> Ontario, anyway. The problem is familiar, aging infrastructure, no political benefit in being
>>> the one to fix it. Because look what we did! Tax Cuts! Windmills!
>>>
>>> To be fair, 2023 has been good so far, at least in my area. But an earlier round of
>>> tax cuts led to thousands of people being poisoned, seven deaths and quite a few
>>> people with permanent disabilities. But that was water, not hydro.
>>>>
>>>> If so, sorry. Life is difficult and constant unlimited electricity
>>>> makes it easier.
>>>
>>> I have lights and books. The house doesn't get below freezing, or not much. It could be
>>> far worse.
>>>
>>> William Hyde
>>
>>Windmills suck in Texas. The blasted things freeze up below 25 F in
>
>So do texas fossil fuel power plants, apparantly.
>
> "Natural gas power generating facilities had equipment freeze up and faced shortages of fuel"
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Texas_power_crisis
>
>Note that northern plants don't have problems with freezing weather;
>for fossil fuels _or_ wind. Wind is huge in Iowa, for instance.

But ... but ... but ... those States are run by competent persons. At
least insofar as generating electricity goes.

Texas is run by ... Texans.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

<dbd60bec-91fd-4b1a-9f27-67794e65c3a1n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
From: wthyde1...@gmail.com (William Hyde)
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 by: William Hyde - Mon, 13 Mar 2023 19:23 UTC

On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 10:05:34 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 3/11/2023 6:50 PM, William Hyde wrote:
> > On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 3:02:43 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> >> On 3/11/2023 1:19 PM, William Hyde wrote:
> >>> On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 5:28:07 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> >>>> On 3/10/2023 11:29 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
> >>>>> In article <pdom0ih64j66amff3...@4ax.com>,
> >>>>> Paul S Person <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Well, I suppose it's /possible/ that people don't wear clothing or
> >>>>>> have utilities in Texas.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I don't know about the first but the news suggests utilities are
> >>>>> at best a sometimes thing in Texas.
> >>>> Just for 96 hours in Feb 2021 as the electricity was rationed to those
> >>>> who needed it the most during the 47% shortfall in generation (45,000
> >>>> MW) versus demand (85,000 MW). And the biennial hurricanes.
> >>>
> >>> When I first moved to Texas I was shocked at the frequency of power outages,
> >>> even accounting for the occasional hurricane remnant hitting College Station.
> >>>
> >>> However, we have since caught up with you.
> >>>
> >>> William Hyde
> >> We, as in Canada ?
> >
> > Ontario, anyway. The problem is familiar, aging infrastructure, no political benefit in being
> > the one to fix it. Because look what we did! Tax Cuts! Windmills!
> >
> > To be fair, 2023 has been good so far, at least in my area. But an earlier round of
> > tax cuts led to thousands of people being poisoned, seven deaths and quite a few
> > people with permanent disabilities. But that was water, not hydro.
> >>
> >> If so, sorry. Life is difficult and constant unlimited electricity
> >> makes it easier.
> >
> > I have lights and books. The house doesn't get below freezing, or not much. It could be
> > far worse.
> >
> > William Hyde

Our windmills do work. My complaint above was about the expensive
incentives offered. The whole program cost far too much (mind you,
the gas plant fiasco cost more).

But at least it got us off of coal. Aside from the reduction of ghg
emissions, smog days in Toronto are down by a factor of ten.

Not that smog was a problem here in bucolic North Etobicoke, but in
other parts of the city people with lung problems were advised to
stay indoors for thirty days a year or so, mostly in summer.

> Windmills suck in Texas. The blasted things freeze up below 25 F in
> Texas since the owners did not install heaters.

You could buy windmills from our people. Just read the contracts
carefully.

And the wind stops
> blowing when the temperature goes above 105 F.

In College Station that was my least favourite temperature. Above that the humidity
tends to drop, so 112 is actually more comfortable than 105. In my last summer
there we had three consecutive weeks of 105.

Useless. The windmill
> output dropped from 38,000 MW to 1,500 MW during the first week ice
> storm in Texas for 96 hours.

That's what the aforementioned gas plants are for. Again, it wasn't
wrong to build them, it was just done terribly for political reasons.

>
> Solar in Texas does not work when it is covered by ice. Which, happens
> more frequently than one realizes.

Twice in my eight years in College Station. But the panhandle
seems to get a real winter fairly often.

William Hyde

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

<tuntk4$3t7dn$1@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=86355&group=rec.arts.sf.written#86355

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From: dtra...@sonic.net (Dimensional Traveler)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2023 12:30:13 -0700
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 by: Dimensional Traveler - Mon, 13 Mar 2023 19:30 UTC

On 3/13/2023 8:16 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:
>> On 3/11/2023 6:50 PM, William Hyde wrote:
>>> On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 3:02:43 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>> On 3/11/2023 1:19 PM, William Hyde wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 5:28:07 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/10/2023 11:29 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
>>>>>>> In article <pdom0ih64j66amff3...@4ax.com>,
>>>>>>> Paul S Person <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well, I suppose it's /possible/ that people don't wear clothing or
>>>>>>>> have utilities in Texas.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't know about the first but the news suggests utilities are
>>>>>>> at best a sometimes thing in Texas.
>>>>>> Just for 96 hours in Feb 2021 as the electricity was rationed to those
>>>>>> who needed it the most during the 47% shortfall in generation (45,000
>>>>>> MW) versus demand (85,000 MW). And the biennial hurricanes.
>>>>>
>>>>> When I first moved to Texas I was shocked at the frequency of power outages,
>>>>> even accounting for the occasional hurricane remnant hitting College Station.
>>>>>
>>>>> However, we have since caught up with you.
>>>>>
>>>>> William Hyde
>>>> We, as in Canada ?
>>>
>>> Ontario, anyway. The problem is familiar, aging infrastructure, no political benefit in being
>>> the one to fix it. Because look what we did! Tax Cuts! Windmills!
>>>
>>> To be fair, 2023 has been good so far, at least in my area. But an earlier round of
>>> tax cuts led to thousands of people being poisoned, seven deaths and quite a few
>>> people with permanent disabilities. But that was water, not hydro.
>>>>
>>>> If so, sorry. Life is difficult and constant unlimited electricity
>>>> makes it easier.
>>>
>>> I have lights and books. The house doesn't get below freezing, or not much. It could be
>>> far worse.
>>>
>>> William Hyde
>>
>> Windmills suck in Texas. The blasted things freeze up below 25 F in
>
> So do texas fossil fuel power plants, apparantly.
>
> "Natural gas power generating facilities had equipment freeze up and faced shortages of fuel"
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Texas_power_crisis
>
Apparently the important Texans don't believe it ever gets below
freezing in Texas.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

<tuo0it$fh0j$1@memoryalpha.rosettacon.com>

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From: rkshul...@rosettacondot.com
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Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
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 by: rkshul...@rosettacondot.com - Mon, 13 Mar 2023 20:20 UTC

Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
> On 3/13/2023 8:16 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:
>>> On 3/11/2023 6:50 PM, William Hyde wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 3:02:43 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>> On 3/11/2023 1:19 PM, William Hyde wrote:
>>>>>> On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 5:28:07 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/10/2023 11:29 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
>>>>>>>> In article <pdom0ih64j66amff3...@4ax.com>,
>>>>>>>> Paul S Person <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Well, I suppose it's /possible/ that people don't wear clothing or
>>>>>>>>> have utilities in Texas.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't know about the first but the news suggests utilities are
>>>>>>>> at best a sometimes thing in Texas.
>>>>>>> Just for 96 hours in Feb 2021 as the electricity was rationed to those
>>>>>>> who needed it the most during the 47% shortfall in generation (45,000
>>>>>>> MW) versus demand (85,000 MW). And the biennial hurricanes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When I first moved to Texas I was shocked at the frequency of power outages,
>>>>>> even accounting for the occasional hurricane remnant hitting College Station.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> However, we have since caught up with you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> William Hyde
>>>>> We, as in Canada ?
>>>>
>>>> Ontario, anyway. The problem is familiar, aging infrastructure, no political benefit in being
>>>> the one to fix it. Because look what we did! Tax Cuts! Windmills!
>>>>
>>>> To be fair, 2023 has been good so far, at least in my area. But an earlier round of
>>>> tax cuts led to thousands of people being poisoned, seven deaths and quite a few
>>>> people with permanent disabilities. But that was water, not hydro.
>>>>>
>>>>> If so, sorry. Life is difficult and constant unlimited electricity
>>>>> makes it easier.
>>>>
>>>> I have lights and books. The house doesn't get below freezing, or not much. It could be
>>>> far worse.
>>>>
>>>> William Hyde
>>>
>>> Windmills suck in Texas. The blasted things freeze up below 25 F in
>>
>> So do texas fossil fuel power plants, apparantly.
>>
>> "Natural gas power generating facilities had equipment freeze up and faced shortages of fuel"
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Texas_power_crisis
>>
> Apparently the important Texans don't believe it ever gets below
> freezing in Texas.

I think the short summary is that everybody wants it fixed but nobody wants
to pay for it. Texas politicicians are as stupid, but not so stupid as to
believe that legislating things makes the cost go away. It will have to get
much more frequent before it gets addressed, at which point everyone will have
a meltdown because the cost of electricity will rise dramatically. EVs and heat
pumps are only going to make the problem worse...Texas is used to having
electricity consumption drop by half or more in the winter.

Robert
--
Robert K. Shull Email: rkshull at rosettacon dot com

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

<tuo3r5$3u8gg$1@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=86358&group=rec.arts.sf.written#86358

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From: lynnmcgu...@gmail.com (Lynn McGuire)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2023 16:16:20 -0500
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 by: Lynn McGuire - Mon, 13 Mar 2023 21:16 UTC

On 3/13/2023 10:46 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 16:31:59 -0500, "Jay E. Morris"
> <morrisj@epsilon3.comcon> wrote:
>
>> On 3/10/2023 10:47 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>>> So, the Texas State Constitution does/not/ require everyone to pay
>>> property tax at the same rate as everyone else? Why am I not
>>> surprised?
>>
>> The Texas State constitution does not require anyone to pay property tax.
>
> Too bad the assertion was about requiring the /rate paid/ to be the
> same for everyone (in the same taxing jurisdiction).
>
>> From https://comptroller.texas.gov/taxes/property-tax/basics.php
>>
>> The Texas Constitution and statutory law authorizes local governments to
>> collect the tax. The state does not set tax rates, collect taxes or
>> settle disputes between you and your local governments.
>
> No State property tax?

Nope.

Lynn

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

<tuo47v$3ud4t$1@dont-email.me>

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Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2023 16:23:09 -0500
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 by: Lynn McGuire - Mon, 13 Mar 2023 21:23 UTC

On 3/13/2023 10:16 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:
>> On 3/11/2023 6:50 PM, William Hyde wrote:
>>> On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 3:02:43 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>> On 3/11/2023 1:19 PM, William Hyde wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 5:28:07 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/10/2023 11:29 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
>>>>>>> In article <pdom0ih64j66amff3...@4ax.com>,
>>>>>>> Paul S Person <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well, I suppose it's /possible/ that people don't wear clothing or
>>>>>>>> have utilities in Texas.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't know about the first but the news suggests utilities are
>>>>>>> at best a sometimes thing in Texas.
>>>>>> Just for 96 hours in Feb 2021 as the electricity was rationed to those
>>>>>> who needed it the most during the 47% shortfall in generation (45,000
>>>>>> MW) versus demand (85,000 MW). And the biennial hurricanes.
>>>>>
>>>>> When I first moved to Texas I was shocked at the frequency of power outages,
>>>>> even accounting for the occasional hurricane remnant hitting College Station.
>>>>>
>>>>> However, we have since caught up with you.
>>>>>
>>>>> William Hyde
>>>> We, as in Canada ?
>>>
>>> Ontario, anyway. The problem is familiar, aging infrastructure, no political benefit in being
>>> the one to fix it. Because look what we did! Tax Cuts! Windmills!
>>>
>>> To be fair, 2023 has been good so far, at least in my area. But an earlier round of
>>> tax cuts led to thousands of people being poisoned, seven deaths and quite a few
>>> people with permanent disabilities. But that was water, not hydro.
>>>>
>>>> If so, sorry. Life is difficult and constant unlimited electricity
>>>> makes it easier.
>>>
>>> I have lights and books. The house doesn't get below freezing, or not much. It could be
>>> far worse.
>>>
>>> William Hyde
>>
>> Windmills suck in Texas. The blasted things freeze up below 25 F in
>
> So do texas fossil fuel power plants, apparantly.
>
> "Natural gas power generating facilities had equipment freeze up and faced shortages of fuel"
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Texas_power_crisis
>
> Note that northern plants don't have problems with freezing weather;
> for fossil fuels _or_ wind. Wind is huge in Iowa, for instance.

That article has several misstatements in it.

The problem in Feb 2021 was that ERCOT shut off the power to the natural
gas fields and electric pipeline compressors and cratered the natural
gas system. By the time ERCOT realized what they had done, it was too
late. All of the natural gas well heads had frozen up. Natural gas has
water in it, it must keep flowing or else it freezes up, just like a
swimming pool.

Still, the bulk of the power in Feb 2021 was provided by nuclear - 5,000
MW, coal - 11,000 MW, and fuel oil / diesel - 30,000 MW for a total of
45,000 MW or so. Solar and wind power were almost immeasurable due to
ice and freeze up.

Lynn

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

<tuo4de$3ud4t$2@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=86360&group=rec.arts.sf.written#86360

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From: lynnmcgu...@gmail.com (Lynn McGuire)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2023 16:26:05 -0500
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Lynn McGuire - Mon, 13 Mar 2023 21:26 UTC

On 3/13/2023 10:48 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 15:16:17 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
> wrote:
>
>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:
>>> On 3/11/2023 6:50 PM, William Hyde wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 3:02:43 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>> On 3/11/2023 1:19 PM, William Hyde wrote:
>>>>>> On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 5:28:07 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/10/2023 11:29 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
>>>>>>>> In article <pdom0ih64j66amff3...@4ax.com>,
>>>>>>>> Paul S Person <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Well, I suppose it's /possible/ that people don't wear clothing or
>>>>>>>>> have utilities in Texas.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't know about the first but the news suggests utilities are
>>>>>>>> at best a sometimes thing in Texas.
>>>>>>> Just for 96 hours in Feb 2021 as the electricity was rationed to those
>>>>>>> who needed it the most during the 47% shortfall in generation (45,000
>>>>>>> MW) versus demand (85,000 MW). And the biennial hurricanes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When I first moved to Texas I was shocked at the frequency of power outages,
>>>>>> even accounting for the occasional hurricane remnant hitting College Station.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> However, we have since caught up with you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> William Hyde
>>>>> We, as in Canada ?
>>>>
>>>> Ontario, anyway. The problem is familiar, aging infrastructure, no political benefit in being
>>>> the one to fix it. Because look what we did! Tax Cuts! Windmills!
>>>>
>>>> To be fair, 2023 has been good so far, at least in my area. But an earlier round of
>>>> tax cuts led to thousands of people being poisoned, seven deaths and quite a few
>>>> people with permanent disabilities. But that was water, not hydro.
>>>>>
>>>>> If so, sorry. Life is difficult and constant unlimited electricity
>>>>> makes it easier.
>>>>
>>>> I have lights and books. The house doesn't get below freezing, or not much. It could be
>>>> far worse.
>>>>
>>>> William Hyde
>>>
>>> Windmills suck in Texas. The blasted things freeze up below 25 F in
>>
>> So do texas fossil fuel power plants, apparantly.
>>
>> "Natural gas power generating facilities had equipment freeze up and faced shortages of fuel"
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Texas_power_crisis
>>
>> Note that northern plants don't have problems with freezing weather;
>> for fossil fuels _or_ wind. Wind is huge in Iowa, for instance.
>
> But ... but ... but ... those States are run by competent persons. At
> least insofar as generating electricity goes.
>
> Texas is run by ... Texans.

Note that we had two extreme freezes this winter and did not have
rotating power outages. ERCOT did not cut the power to the natural gas
fields or the electric pipeline compressors this time. ERCOT was able
to serve the 74,000 MW load using 600+ power plants with only 3,000 MW
of windmills and solar out of the 50,000 MW of windmills and solar
installed in Texas.

Lynn

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

<tuo6tm$3ur0u$1@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=86365&group=rec.arts.sf.written#86365

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From: lynnmcgu...@gmail.com (Lynn McGuire)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2023 17:08:52 -0500
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 by: Lynn McGuire - Mon, 13 Mar 2023 22:08 UTC

On 3/13/2023 2:23 PM, William Hyde wrote:
> On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 10:05:34 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> On 3/11/2023 6:50 PM, William Hyde wrote:
>>> On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 3:02:43 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>> On 3/11/2023 1:19 PM, William Hyde wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 5:28:07 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/10/2023 11:29 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
>>>>>>> In article <pdom0ih64j66amff3...@4ax.com>,
>>>>>>> Paul S Person <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well, I suppose it's /possible/ that people don't wear clothing or
>>>>>>>> have utilities in Texas.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't know about the first but the news suggests utilities are
>>>>>>> at best a sometimes thing in Texas.
>>>>>> Just for 96 hours in Feb 2021 as the electricity was rationed to those
>>>>>> who needed it the most during the 47% shortfall in generation (45,000
>>>>>> MW) versus demand (85,000 MW). And the biennial hurricanes.
>>>>>
>>>>> When I first moved to Texas I was shocked at the frequency of power outages,
>>>>> even accounting for the occasional hurricane remnant hitting College Station.
>>>>>
>>>>> However, we have since caught up with you.
>>>>>
>>>>> William Hyde
>>>> We, as in Canada ?
>>>
>>> Ontario, anyway. The problem is familiar, aging infrastructure, no political benefit in being
>>> the one to fix it. Because look what we did! Tax Cuts! Windmills!
>>>
>>> To be fair, 2023 has been good so far, at least in my area. But an earlier round of
>>> tax cuts led to thousands of people being poisoned, seven deaths and quite a few
>>> people with permanent disabilities. But that was water, not hydro.
>>>>
>>>> If so, sorry. Life is difficult and constant unlimited electricity
>>>> makes it easier.
>>>
>>> I have lights and books. The house doesn't get below freezing, or not much. It could be
>>> far worse.
>>>
>>> William Hyde
>
>
> Our windmills do work. My complaint above was about the expensive
> incentives offered. The whole program cost far too much (mind you,
> the gas plant fiasco cost more).
>
> But at least it got us off of coal. Aside from the reduction of ghg
> emissions, smog days in Toronto are down by a factor of ten.
>
> Not that smog was a problem here in bucolic North Etobicoke, but in
> other parts of the city people with lung problems were advised to
> stay indoors for thirty days a year or so, mostly in summer.
>
>> Windmills suck in Texas. The blasted things freeze up below 25 F in
>> Texas since the owners did not install heaters.
>
> You could buy windmills from our people. Just read the contracts
> carefully.
>
> And the wind stops
>> blowing when the temperature goes above 105 F.
>
> In College Station that was my least favourite temperature. Above that the humidity
> tends to drop, so 112 is actually more comfortable than 105. In my last summer
> there we had three consecutive weeks of 105.
>
> Useless. The windmill
>> output dropped from 38,000 MW to 1,500 MW during the first week ice
>> storm in Texas for 96 hours.
>
> That's what the aforementioned gas plants are for. Again, it wasn't
> wrong to build them, it was just done terribly for political reasons.
>
>>
>> Solar in Texas does not work when it is covered by ice. Which, happens
>> more frequently than one realizes.
>
>
> Twice in my eight years in College Station. But the panhandle
> seems to get a real winter fairly often.
>
> William Hyde

The natural gas / fuel oil steam plants are an average of almost 60
years old. They were built in the 1950s to 1975. They take anywhere
from a day to a week to get started. They are around 40,000 MW.

The natural gas / diesel gas turbines were built from 1980 to now (there
is a company installing 200 of the 48 MW LM6000 units across Houston and
Dallas). About 20,000 MW. The simple cycle units take 22 minutes to 6
minutes to get started. The combined cycle units take 4 hours to a day
to get started, most of them never shut down completely.

Lynn

Lynn

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

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Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
From: lenona...@yahoo.com (Lenona)
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 by: Lenona - Mon, 13 Mar 2023 22:10 UTC

On Tuesday, March 7, 2023 at 3:55:21 PM UTC-5, James Nicoll wrote:
> >Are there ways to make having kids a much more viable and desirable
> >choice than it is today?
> >
> The state could subsidize them but that's communism. A more
> acceptable approach would be groinal pain clamps that deliver
> a slowly increasing discomfort to adults who have not have new-
> borns in, oh, let's say the last 8 months. Start at six pain
> units (where ten will trigger a lethal stroke) and then add
> one unit per month. Plus of course tax breaks for the rich
> but that goes without saying.

That reminds me of a few things.

One: A common saying (by more than one party) is "if you can't feed 'em, don't breed 'em."

But...but...imagine if the birthrate among the poor suddenly dropped by half.

Obviously, things would become a good deal more comfortable for the babies who are already here - they might even be living above the poverty level.

Where, then, would the future wage slaves and cannon fodder come from?

Bottom line: Conservatives don't really like it when large numbers of poor people stop having more than one child per woman - if that many. (I wonder how they feel about the teen pregnancy rate dropping, since most single women in their 20s flat-out refuse to give up their babies for adoption, unlike some teens?)

Check this chart out, too - it seems the birth rate among the poor has dropped quite a bit since 2005.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/562541/birth-rate-by-poverty-status-in-the-us/

Two: I have a theory that while there's no shortage of people who want to punish women - even MARRIED women - for having sex (60% of women who seek abortions already have children, btw), it's just as likely, maybe even more so, that there's a great deal of religious hostility toward any youngish person, male, female, rich or poor, who refuses to marry or have children - or have more than one child. I.e., even women who don't HAVE sex lives often get accused by their religious communities of not being real women or real adults.

(Unfortunately, plenty of liberals are also guilty of telling men to "man up" if the men refuse to marry or have children when their girlfriends start making demands. Liberals tend to forget that if women have the right to live unconventional, carefree lives, so do men. Of course, only the men who have good jobs - or who already have children - are under serious pressure by society to marry.)

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