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arts / rec.arts.sf.written / Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No Evil

SubjectAuthor
* {Quora] I Will Fear No EvilDavid Johnston
+* Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No EvilJames Nicoll
|+- Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No EvilAhasuerus
|+- Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No EvilDavid Johnston
|+- Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No EvilQuadibloc
|`- Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No EvilMickmane
+* Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No EvilLynn McGuire
|`* Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No EvilQuadibloc
| `* Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No EvilLynn McGuire
|  +* Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No EvilQuadibloc
|  |`* Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No EvilWolfFan
|  | +* Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No EvilChristian Weisgerber
|  | |+- Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No EvilWolfFan
|  | |`* Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No EvilJonathan Harston
|  | | `* Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No EvilQuadibloc
|  | |  `* Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No Evilpete...@gmail.com
|  | |   `* Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No EvilPaul S Person
|  | |    `* Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No EvilRobert Carnegie
|  | |     `* Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No EvilPaul S Person
|  | |      `- Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No EvilRobert Carnegie
|  | `* Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No EvilLynn McGuire
|  |  `* Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No EvilWolfFan
|  |   `* Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No EvilLynn McGuire
|  |    `- Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No EvilPaul S Person
|  `- Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No Evil-dsr-
+- Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No EvilWilliam Hyde
+- Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No EvilWolfFan
+* Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No EvilDorothy J Heydt
|`- Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No EvilHamish Laws
+* Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No EvilPaul S Person
|+- Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No EvilRobert Carnegie
|+- Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No EvilLynn McGuire
|`- Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No EvilDavid Johnston
+* Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No EvilRobert Carnegie
|`- Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No EvilLynn McGuire
+- Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No EvilQuadibloc
`* Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No EvilQuadibloc
 +- Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No EvilDavid Johnston
 `- Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No EvilRobert Carnegie

Pages:12
{Quora] I Will Fear No Evil

<tug0lv$23c06$1@dont-email.me>

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From: davidjoh...@yahoo.com (David Johnston)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: {Quora] I Will Fear No Evil
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 12:33:18 -0700
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 by: David Johnston - Fri, 10 Mar 2023 19:33 UTC

What do people think of Robert E. Heinlein's 1970 novel 'I Will Fear No
Evil', in which a rich dying old man has his brain transplanted into the
body of his beautiful young female secretary?

David Johnston
Feb 24
Most of them think it was somewhere on the range between not very good
and terrible. After a certain point Heinlein had this thing where every
story he wrote had to be transgressive in some way by the standards of
the time. The earliest one I’m aware of was Puppet Masters where the
whole plot is contrived to normalize public nudity. In this one he plays
with the idea of switching sexes after which nothing especially
interesting happens. The dirty old rich guy gets the body of a young
woman and she devotes the rest of her life to giddily exploring the
wonders of sex in a female body. <yawn>

Most of the time he had a plot in addition to his latest foray into
incest, cannibalism, transgenderism, multiple marriage or nudism but
this time not so much. Probably didn’t help that he was sick as a dog
while writing it.

Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No Evil

<tug43e$66d$2@reader2.panix.com>

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From: jdnic...@panix.com (James Nicoll)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No Evil
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 20:31:42 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: Public Access Networks Corp.
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 by: James Nicoll - Fri, 10 Mar 2023 20:31 UTC

In article <tug0lv$23c06$1@dont-email.me>,
David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:
>What do people think of Robert E. Heinlein's 1970 novel 'I Will Fear No
>Evil', in which a rich dying old man has his brain transplanted into the>body of his beautiful young female secretary?
>
>Feb 24
>Most of them think it was somewhere on the range between not very good
>and terrible. After a certain point Heinlein had this thing where every
>story he wrote had to be transgressive in some way by the standards of
>the time. The earliest one I’m aware of was Puppet Masters where the
>whole plot is contrived to normalize public nudity. In this one he plays
>with the idea of switching sexes after which nothing especially
>interesting happens. The dirty old rich guy gets the body of a young
>woman and she devotes the rest of her life to giddily exploring the
>wonders of sex in a female body. <yawn>

It serves admirably to prop up a sagging couch until it can be
replaced. Otherwise, it's virtues are well-concealed.

>Most of the time he had a plot in addition to his latest foray into
>incest, cannibalism, transgenderism, multiple marriage or nudism but
>this time not so much. Probably didn't help that he was sick as a dog
>while writing it.

Nudism popped up before in RAH. I think the time travel novel
explicably not adapted intoo a manga called MY BEST FRIEND TURNED
ENEMY'S OPEN-MINDED TWEEN DAUGHTER IS HOT had nudists and that was
the 1950s. I noticed once that nudism seemed to turn up more often
than one might expect in the work of SF authors who worked at
the Naval Aviation Experimental Station in Philadelphia during
WWII. The role of nudism in America's defence against the Axis
is so obvious I won't insult you by explaining it.

--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No Evil

<tug6h8$248bu$3@dont-email.me>

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From: lynnmcgu...@gmail.com (Lynn McGuire)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No Evil
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 15:13:10 -0600
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 by: Lynn McGuire - Fri, 10 Mar 2023 21:13 UTC

On 3/10/2023 1:33 PM, David Johnston wrote:
> What do people think of Robert E. Heinlein's 1970 novel 'I Will Fear No
> Evil', in which a rich dying old man has his brain transplanted into the
> body of his beautiful young female secretary?
>
> David Johnston
> Feb 24
> Most of them think it was somewhere on the range between not very good
> and terrible. After a certain point Heinlein had this thing where every
> story he wrote had to be transgressive in some way by the standards of
> the time. The earliest one I’m aware of was Puppet Masters where the
> whole plot is contrived to normalize public nudity. In this one he plays
> with the idea of switching sexes after which nothing especially
> interesting happens. The dirty old rich guy gets the body of a young
> woman and she devotes the rest of her life to giddily exploring the
> wonders of sex in a female body. <yawn>
>
> Most of the time he had a plot in addition to his latest foray into
> incest, cannibalism, transgenderism, multiple marriage or nudism but
> this time not so much. Probably didn’t help that he was sick as a dog
> while writing it.

4.3 out of 5 stars on Big River (440 reviews). You can still buy a new
MMPB copy so that says something.
https://www.amazon.com/I-Will-Fear-No-Evil/dp/0441359175/

Lynn

Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No Evil

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Subject: Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No Evil
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 by: Ahasuerus - Fri, 10 Mar 2023 21:21 UTC

On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 3:31:47 PM UTC-5, James Nicoll wrote:
[snip-snip]
> Nudism popped up before in RAH. I think the time travel novel
> explicably not adapted intoo a manga called MY BEST FRIEND TURNED
> ENEMY'S OPEN-MINDED TWEEN DAUGHTER IS HOT had nudists and that was
> the 1950s. [snip]

Nudism would have popped up a lot earlier if Heinlein had been able to
convince Campbell to publish _For Us, the Living_. To quote Chapter 20
of volume 1 of Bill Patterson's biography:

> [In 1940] Campbell wrote to [Heinlein] in Chicago with his reaction to
> _For Us, the Living_. It was just about what could be expected: he
> suggested it be rewritten by throwing out all the nudism and free love
> and reworking the backstory from a political evolution to a technical
> revolution, based on atomic transmutation.

Heinlein disagreed:

> To me there is a close and causal relationship, or rather a functional
> and structural relationship between economic customs, sexual
> customs, dress, taboos, language, political institutions, etc.
> [snip] finding myself in a culture which is distasteful to my inner
> needs, I adapt to it as comfortably as possible, and try mildly from
> time to time to change it here and there.

Heinlein had more opportunities to "try ... to change [the culture]"
in the 1950s-1980s, which he took full advantage of.

Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No Evil

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Subject: Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No Evil
From: wthyde1...@gmail.com (William Hyde)
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 by: William Hyde - Fri, 10 Mar 2023 21:43 UTC

On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 2:33:24 PM UTC-5, David Johnston wrote:
> What do people think of Robert E. Heinlein's 1970 novel 'I Will Fear No
> Evil', in which a rich dying old man has his brain transplanted into the
> body of his beautiful young female secretary?

A reread of a disliked novel by an author I like generally improves my
opinion of the book.

Not this time. At most, two stars on the five point scale.

William Hyde

Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No Evil

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From: davidjoh...@yahoo.com (David Johnston)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No Evil
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 14:58:41 -0700
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 by: David Johnston - Fri, 10 Mar 2023 21:58 UTC

On 2023-03-10 1:31 p.m., James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <tug0lv$23c06$1@dont-email.me>,
> David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> What do people think of Robert E. Heinlein's 1970 novel 'I Will Fear No
>> Evil', in which a rich dying old man has his brain transplanted into the>body of his beautiful young female secretary?
>>
>> Feb 24
>> Most of them think it was somewhere on the range between not very good
>> and terrible. After a certain point Heinlein had this thing where every
>> story he wrote had to be transgressive in some way by the standards of
>> the time. The earliest one I’m aware of was Puppet Masters where the
>> whole plot is contrived to normalize public nudity. In this one he plays
>> with the idea of switching sexes after which nothing especially
>> interesting happens. The dirty old rich guy gets the body of a young
>> woman and she devotes the rest of her life to giddily exploring the
>> wonders of sex in a female body. <yawn>
>
> It serves admirably to prop up a sagging couch until it can be
> replaced. Otherwise, it's virtues are well-concealed.
>
>> Most of the time he had a plot in addition to his latest foray into
>> incest, cannibalism, transgenderism, multiple marriage or nudism but
>> this time not so much. Probably didn't help that he was sick as a dog
>> while writing it.
>
> Nudism popped up before in RAH. I think the time travel novel
> explicably not adapted intoo a manga called MY BEST FRIEND TURNED
> ENEMY'S OPEN-MINDED TWEEN DAUGHTER IS HOT had nudists and that was
> the 1950s.

So was the Puppet Masters. It was nudism defeating Communism in 1951.
The Door Into Grooming was five years later. There's still time for the
manga. After all, the movie only came out a couple of years ago.

I noticed once that nudism seemed to turn up more often
> than one might expect in the work of SF authors who worked at
> the Naval Aviation Experimental Station in Philadelphia during
> WWII. The role of nudism in America's defence against the Axis
> is so obvious I won't insult you by explaining it.
>
>

Well it definitely beat Communism.

Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No Evil

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 by: WolfFan - Fri, 10 Mar 2023 23:26 UTC

On Mar 10, 2023, David Johnston wrote
(in article <tug0lv$23c06$1@dont-email.me>):

> What do people think of Robert E. Heinlein's 1970 novel 'I Will Fear No
> Evil', in which a rich dying old man has his brain transplanted into the
> body of his beautiful young female secretary?
>
> David Johnston
> Feb 24
> Most of them think it was somewhere on the range between not very good
> and terrible. After a certain point Heinlein had this thing where every
> story he wrote had to be transgressive in some way by the standards of
> the time. The earliest one I’m aware of was Puppet Masters where the
> whole plot is contrived to normalize public nudity. In this one he plays
> with the idea of switching sexes after which nothing especially
> interesting happens. The dirty old rich guy gets the body of a young
> woman and she devotes the rest of her life to giddily exploring the
> wonders of sex in a female body. <yawn>
>
> Most of the time he had a plot in addition to his latest foray into
> incest, cannibalism, transgenderism, multiple marriage or nudism but
> this time not so much. Probably didn’t help that he was sick as a dog
> while writing it.

There are two Heinlein novels which I have read only once. One is “I Will
Fear No Evil”.

Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No Evil

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From: djhe...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
Subject: Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No Evil
Message-ID: <rrCBuA.1C5B@kithrup.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2023 05:13:22 GMT
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 by: Dorothy J Heydt - Sat, 11 Mar 2023 05:13 UTC

In article <tug0lv$23c06$1@dont-email.me>,
David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:
>What do people think of Robert E. Heinlein's ...

(Hal Heydt)
Anson.

>Most of the time he had a plot in addition to his latest foray into
>incest, cannibalism, transgenderism, multiple marriage or nudism but
>this time not so much. Probably didn’t help that he was sick as a dog
>while writing it.

He'd gotten famous enough that no one could get away with editing
him.

Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No Evil

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Subject: Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No Evil
From: hamish.l...@gmail.com (Hamish Laws)
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 by: Hamish Laws - Sat, 11 Mar 2023 12:41 UTC

On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 4:21:01 PM UTC+11, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <tug0lv$23c06$1...@dont-email.me>,
> David Johnston <davidjo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >What do people think of Robert E. Heinlein's ...
>
> (Hal Heydt)
> Anson.
> >Most of the time he had a plot in addition to his latest foray into
> >incest, cannibalism, transgenderism, multiple marriage or nudism but
> >this time not so much. Probably didn’t help that he was sick as a dog
> >while writing it.
> He'd gotten famous enough that no one could get away with editing
> him.

My recollection is that he had health issues and couldn't go through the normal editing process so IWFNE is pretty close to published as a first draft

Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No Evil

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From: psper...@old.netcom.invalid (Paul S Person)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No Evil
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2023 09:30:01 -0800
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 by: Paul S Person - Sat, 11 Mar 2023 17:30 UTC

On Fri, 10 Mar 2023 12:33:18 -0700, David Johnston
<davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:

>What do people think of Robert E. Heinlein's 1970 novel 'I Will Fear No
>Evil', in which a rich dying old man has his brain transplanted into the
>body of his beautiful young female secretary?

I think it shows that he thought he knew how women think, feel, and
otherwise operate but in fact had /no idea whatsoever/.

Self-delusion produces bad novels.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No Evil

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Subject: Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No Evil
From: rja.carn...@excite.com (Robert Carnegie)
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 by: Robert Carnegie - Sat, 11 Mar 2023 19:52 UTC

On Saturday, 11 March 2023 at 17:30:07 UTC, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Fri, 10 Mar 2023 12:33:18 -0700, David Johnston
> <davidjo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >What do people think of Robert E. Heinlein's 1970 novel 'I Will Fear No
> >Evil', in which a rich dying old man has his brain transplanted into the
> >body of his beautiful young female secretary?
> I think it shows that he thought he knew how women think, feel, and
> otherwise operate but in fact had /no idea whatsoever/.
>
> Self-delusion produces bad novels.

Could this be an example for David Brown
of "bad science that spoils the book"?

Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No Evil

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Subject: Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No Evil
From: rja.carn...@excite.com (Robert Carnegie)
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 by: Robert Carnegie - Sat, 11 Mar 2023 19:57 UTC

On Friday, 10 March 2023 at 19:33:24 UTC, David Johnston wrote:
> What do people think of Robert E. Heinlein's 1970 novel 'I Will Fear No
> Evil', in which a rich dying old man has his brain transplanted into the
> body of his beautiful young female secretary?
>
> David Johnston
> Feb 24
> Most of them think it was somewhere on the range between not very good
> and terrible. After a certain point Heinlein had this thing where every
> story he wrote had to be transgressive in some way by the standards of
> the time. The earliest one I’m aware of was Puppet Masters where the
> whole plot is contrived to normalize public nudity. In this one he plays
> with the idea of switching sexes after which nothing especially
> interesting happens. The dirty old rich guy gets the body of a young
> woman and she devotes the rest of her life to giddily exploring the
> wonders of sex in a female body. <yawn>
>
> Most of the time he had a plot in addition to his latest foray into
> incest, cannibalism, transgenderism, multiple marriage or nudism but
> this time not so much. Probably didn’t help that he was sick as a dog
> while writing it.

Reflecting, I think "a man's brain is transplanted into
a dead woman's body, confusing the woman's friends"
counts as a plot. And perhaps so does the sexual
exploration.

And the woman's ghost is haunting the body, or the
new brain at least. That's important. A female Virgil
for the new Dante... maybe I've got that wrong.

Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No Evil

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From: lynnmcgu...@gmail.com (Lynn McGuire)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No Evil
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2023 14:09:03 -0600
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 by: Lynn McGuire - Sat, 11 Mar 2023 20:09 UTC

On 3/11/2023 11:30 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Fri, 10 Mar 2023 12:33:18 -0700, David Johnston
> <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> What do people think of Robert E. Heinlein's 1970 novel 'I Will Fear No
>> Evil', in which a rich dying old man has his brain transplanted into the
>> body of his beautiful young female secretary?
>
> I think it shows that he thought he knew how women think, feel, and
> otherwise operate but in fact had /no idea whatsoever/.
>
> Self-delusion produces bad novels.

So his first critic, Virgina Heinlein, had no sway at all ?

BTW, I think that Heinlein was remarkably prophetic and am awaiting the
news release of the first brain transfer. His labeling these years as
the "Crazy Years" seems to be fairly correct. But he did not predict
when they would end. I suspect that the USA will end up more like
Friday than Revolt in 2100 though, I just don't know which is worse.

Lynn

Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No Evil

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Subject: Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No Evil
From: jsav...@ecn.ab.ca (Quadibloc)
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 by: Quadibloc - Sun, 12 Mar 2023 00:00 UTC

On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 1:31:47 PM UTC-7, James Nicoll wrote:

> Nudism popped up before in RAH.

That's not surprising, since Heinlein himself was a nudist.

> I noticed once that nudism seemed to turn up more often
> than one might expect in the work of SF authors who worked at
> the Naval Aviation Experimental Station in Philadelphia during
> WWII. The role of nudism in America's defence against the Axis
> is so obvious I won't insult you by explaining it.

Well, I will freely admit that I am so dense that I have no
understanding of its role whatever.

Not to say that I am so dense as to miss the presence of sarcasm
here.

John Savard

Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No Evil

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Subject: Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No Evil
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 by: Quadibloc - Sun, 12 Mar 2023 00:03 UTC

On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 12:33:24 PM UTC-7, David Johnston wrote:
> What do people think of Robert E. Heinlein's 1970 novel 'I Will Fear No
> Evil', in which a rich dying old man has his brain transplanted into the
> body of his beautiful young female secretary?

Well, having her ghost in effect haunting her body after the transplant
was, of course, a shocking lapse into pseudoscience and supernaturalism.

In the court case, having the protagonist lie and say that he was perfectly
comfortable being a woman - because he didn't want the jury to decide
his case based on the popular prejudice against Lesbians - is the sort of
realism which hinders my enjoyment of his young adult novels.

Other than those two quibbles, though, I thought it was an enjoyable
enough potboiler.

John Savard

Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No Evil

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Subject: Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No Evil
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 by: Quadibloc - Sun, 12 Mar 2023 03:56 UTC

On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 12:33:24 PM UTC-7, David Johnston quoted, in part:
> The dirty old rich guy gets the body of a young
> woman and she devotes the rest of her life to giddily exploring the
> wonders of sex in a female body.

My recollection of the book, hazy though it is, is that the
sexual matters touched upon were not dealt with in a
prurient or pornographic manner.

Instead, as a normal heterosexual male, he was originally
repulsed by the idea of engaging in sexual activity in his
current state, but he gradually accomodated to his new
situation, overcoming his prejudices.

Thus, Heinlein appears to have been, decades ahead of his
time, fighting the good liberal fight against homophobia and
even transphobia.

That does not necessarily make it a good book, or one that I
would want to re-read. But it's just that *this* is not where its
problems lie.

John Savard

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Subject: Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No Evil
From: jsav...@ecn.ab.ca (Quadibloc)
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 by: Quadibloc - Sun, 12 Mar 2023 03:58 UTC

On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 2:13:17 PM UTC-7, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> You can still buy a new
> MMPB copy so that says something.

Maybe just something about the reputation of Heinlein's oeuvre in
general, because of his best books, and not necessarily anything
about _this_ book?

John Savard

Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No Evil

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From: lynnmcgu...@gmail.com (Lynn McGuire)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No Evil
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2023 22:32:53 -0600
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 by: Lynn McGuire - Sun, 12 Mar 2023 04:32 UTC

On 3/11/2023 9:58 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 2:13:17 PM UTC-7, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> You can still buy a new
>> MMPB copy so that says something.
>
> Maybe just something about the reputation of Heinlein's oeuvre in
> general, because of his best books, and not necessarily anything
> about _this_ book?
>
> John Savard

Not all of Heinlein's books are available new:
https://www.amazon.com/Tunnel-Sky-Robert-Heinlein/dp/1416505512/

Lynn

Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No Evil

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Subject: Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No Evil
From: jsav...@ecn.ab.ca (Quadibloc)
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 by: Quadibloc - Sun, 12 Mar 2023 21:09 UTC

On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 9:33:01 PM UTC-7, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 3/11/2023 9:58 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
> > On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 2:13:17 PM UTC-7, Lynn McGuire wrote:

> >> You can still buy a new
> >> MMPB copy so that says something.

> > Maybe just something about the reputation of Heinlein's oeuvre in
> > general, because of his best books, and not necessarily anything
> > about _this_ book?

> Not all of Heinlein's books are available new:
> https://www.amazon.com/Tunnel-Sky-Robert-Heinlein/dp/1416505512/

Interesting. That is one of his juveniles; I don't recall it being
objectionable for any reason.

John Savard

Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No Evil

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 by: WolfFan - Sun, 12 Mar 2023 21:32 UTC

On Mar 12, 2023, Quadibloc wrote
(in article<69d7936f-e430-4383-8572-cdef9fbf3969n@googlegroups.com>):

> On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 9:33:01 PM UTC-7, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> > On 3/11/2023 9:58 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
> > > On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 2:13:17 PM UTC-7, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>
> > > > You can still buy a new
> > > > MMPB copy so that says something.
>
> > > Maybe just something about the reputation of Heinlein's oeuvre in
> > > general, because of his best books, and not necessarily anything
> > > about _this_ book?
>
> > Not all of Heinlein's books are available new:
> > https://www.amazon.com/Tunnel-Sky-Robert-Heinlein/dp/1416505512/
>
> Interesting. That is one of his juveniles; I don't recall it being
> objectionable for any reason.
>
> John Savard

Off the top of my head...

1. Girlz in the military. Lots of idiots object to that.

2. Our Hero has trouble distinguishing girlz from boyz. Other idiots have
problems there, and still others have problems with that whole gender thing.

3. It glorifies imperialism. Seriously.

4. It glorifies inter-racial co-operation. (A certain City Manager...)

5. It glorifies bad attitudes (the aforementioned City Manager and her
attitude towards authority when said authority needed her notepaper)

6. It glorifies corporal punishment, as noted on the very last page.

I’m sure that there’s more if I look closer.

Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No Evil

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From: nad...@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No Evil
Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2023 23:02:36 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Christian Weisgerber - Sun, 12 Mar 2023 23:02 UTC

On 2023-03-12, WolfFan <akwolffan@zoho.com> wrote:

>> > Not all of Heinlein's books are available new:
>> > https://www.amazon.com/Tunnel-Sky-Robert-Heinlein/dp/1416505512/
>>
>> Interesting. That is one of his juveniles; I don't recall it being
>> objectionable for any reason.
>
> Off the top of my head...
>
> 1. Girlz in the military. Lots of idiots object to that.

The protagonist's older sister, IIRC? And didn't that sound a lot
like a segregated branch of the military?

> 2. Our Hero has trouble distinguishing girlz from boyz. Other idiots have
> problems there, and still others have problems with that whole gender thing.

He mistook one particular girl for a boy, because going into a
survival situation she had opted for short hair and body armor.
I think there is some intentional irony here. Also, it's a juvenile,
no teenager ever has sex on their mind.

As far as I recall, the novel sticks to 1950s gender roles and
societal norms. Of course some people might have a problem with
exactly that. My memory is hazy but wasn't there a whole lot of
discussion about how to establish a system of government, and then
out of the blue people get married and there is absolutely zero
discussion or questioning of that aspect of society. Huh. Very
jarring for a reader who grew up a few decades later.

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No Evil

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From: davidjoh...@yahoo.com (David Johnston)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No Evil
Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2023 18:52:40 -0600
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 by: David Johnston - Mon, 13 Mar 2023 00:52 UTC

On 2023-03-11 8:56 p.m., Quadibloc wrote:
> On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 12:33:24 PM UTC-7, David Johnston quoted, in part:
>> The dirty old rich guy gets the body of a young
>> woman and she devotes the rest of her life to giddily exploring the
>> wonders of sex in a female body.
>
> My recollection of the book, hazy though it is, is that the
> sexual matters touched upon were not dealt with in a
> prurient or pornographic manner.

It's not that it was prurient. It's that it was boring.

Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No Evil

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From: lynnmcgu...@gmail.com (Lynn McGuire)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No Evil
Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2023 20:51:00 -0500
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 by: Lynn McGuire - Mon, 13 Mar 2023 01:51 UTC

On 3/12/2023 4:32 PM, WolfFan wrote:
> On Mar 12, 2023, Quadibloc wrote
> (in article<69d7936f-e430-4383-8572-cdef9fbf3969n@googlegroups.com>):
>
>> On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 9:33:01 PM UTC-7, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>> On 3/11/2023 9:58 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>> On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 2:13:17 PM UTC-7, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>
>>>>> You can still buy a new
>>>>> MMPB copy so that says something.
>>
>>>> Maybe just something about the reputation of Heinlein's oeuvre in
>>>> general, because of his best books, and not necessarily anything
>>>> about _this_ book?
>>
>>> Not all of Heinlein's books are available new:
>>> https://www.amazon.com/Tunnel-Sky-Robert-Heinlein/dp/1416505512/
>>
>> Interesting. That is one of his juveniles; I don't recall it being
>> objectionable for any reason.
>>
>> John Savard
>
> Off the top of my head...
>
> 1. Girlz in the military. Lots of idiots object to that.
>
> 2. Our Hero has trouble distinguishing girlz from boyz. Other idiots have
> problems there, and still others have problems with that whole gender thing.
>
> 3. It glorifies imperialism. Seriously.
>
> 4. It glorifies inter-racial co-operation. (A certain City Manager...)
>
> 5. It glorifies bad attitudes (the aforementioned City Manager and her
> attitude towards authority when said authority needed her notepaper)
>
> 6. It glorifies corporal punishment, as noted on the very last page.
>
> I’m sure that there’s more if I look closer.

I think you and I read different books. This is "Tunnel In The Sky", not
"Starship Troopers".

Lynn

Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No Evil

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From: lynnmcgu...@gmail.com (Lynn McGuire)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No Evil
Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2023 20:52:52 -0500
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 by: Lynn McGuire - Mon, 13 Mar 2023 01:52 UTC

On 3/11/2023 1:57 PM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> On Friday, 10 March 2023 at 19:33:24 UTC, David Johnston wrote:
>> What do people think of Robert E. Heinlein's 1970 novel 'I Will Fear No
>> Evil', in which a rich dying old man has his brain transplanted into the
>> body of his beautiful young female secretary?
>>
>> David Johnston
>> Feb 24
>> Most of them think it was somewhere on the range between not very good
>> and terrible. After a certain point Heinlein had this thing where every
>> story he wrote had to be transgressive in some way by the standards of
>> the time. The earliest one I’m aware of was Puppet Masters where the
>> whole plot is contrived to normalize public nudity. In this one he plays
>> with the idea of switching sexes after which nothing especially
>> interesting happens. The dirty old rich guy gets the body of a young
>> woman and she devotes the rest of her life to giddily exploring the
>> wonders of sex in a female body. <yawn>
>>
>> Most of the time he had a plot in addition to his latest foray into
>> incest, cannibalism, transgenderism, multiple marriage or nudism but
>> this time not so much. Probably didn’t help that he was sick as a dog
>> while writing it.
>
> Reflecting, I think "a man's brain is transplanted into
> a dead woman's body, confusing the woman's friends"
> counts as a plot. And perhaps so does the sexual
> exploration.
>
> And the woman's ghost is haunting the body, or the
> new brain at least. That's important. A female Virgil
> for the new Dante... maybe I've got that wrong.

The book was never clear if she was a ghost or he had brain damage from
the transfer. He felt tremendous guilt from inhabiting her body so the
psychological trauma might have generated the ghost also.

Lynn

Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No Evil

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Subject: Re: {Quora] I Will Fear No Evil
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 by: WolfFan - Mon, 13 Mar 2023 03:33 UTC

On Mar 12, 2023, Lynn McGuire wrote
(in article <tulvi4$3d02j$1@dont-email.me>):

> On 3/12/2023 4:32 PM, WolfFan wrote:
> > On Mar 12, 2023, Quadibloc wrote
> > (in article<69d7936f-e430-4383-8572-cdef9fbf3969n@googlegroups.com>):
> >
> > > On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 9:33:01 PM UTC-7, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> > > > On 3/11/2023 9:58 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 2:13:17 PM UTC-7, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> > >
> > > > > > You can still buy a new
> > > > > > MMPB copy so that says something.
> > >
> > > > > Maybe just something about the reputation of Heinlein's oeuvre in
> > > > > general, because of his best books, and not necessarily anything
> > > > > about _this_ book?
> > >
> > > > Not all of Heinlein's books are available new:
> > > > https://www.amazon.com/Tunnel-Sky-Robert-Heinlein/dp/1416505512/
> > >
> > > Interesting. That is one of his juveniles; I don't recall it being
> > > objectionable for any reason.
> > >
> > > John Savard
> >
> > Off the top of my head...
> >
> > 1. Girlz in the military. Lots of idiots object to that.
> >
> > 2. Our Hero has trouble distinguishing girlz from boyz. Other idiots have
> > problems there, and still others have problems with that whole gender thing.
> >
> > 3. It glorifies imperialism. Seriously.
> >
> > 4. It glorifies inter-racial co-operation. (A certain City Manager...)
> >
> > 5. It glorifies bad attitudes (the aforementioned City Manager and her
> > attitude towards authority when said authority needed her notepaper)
> >
> > 6. It glorifies corporal punishment, as noted on the very last page.
> >
> > I’m sure that there’s more if I look closer.
>
> I think you and I read different books. This is "Tunnel In The Sky", not
> "Starship Troopers".

Yes, it is. Roddie’s sister was military. Roddie thought that Jackie was a
guy. The whole point of the system was to colonize distant planets. Caroline
was a Zulu. Caroline advised the first mayor that he’d better send several
big, husky, boys, to collect her notepaper. And implied that he might not get
all of them back. (“Good! That solves a problem I had been wondering about.
Uh, we will have to requisition half of that supply for official use- public
notices, committee transactions, and the like. You know.” Caroline looked
wide-eyed. “That’s a lot of paper, isn’t it? You had better send two or
three big husky boys to carry it.” Cowper looked puzzled. “You’re
joking.” “Better make it four big huskies. I could probably manage three
… and somebody is likely to get hurt.”
Excerpt From
Tunnel In the Sky
Robert A. Heinlein
This material may be protected by copyright.) A brat in na colonizing party
gets a thorough spanking as the book ends. That’s Tunnel, not Troopers.

I have the book in my ebook pile; I scanned it in and OCRed it from an
ancient paperback.

>
>
> Lynn

Pages:12
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