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arts / rec.arts.sf.written / Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963

SubjectAuthor
* A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963Thomas Koenig
+* Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan
|+* Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963Don
||`* Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963Lynn McGuire
|| `- Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan
|+* Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963Jonathan Harston
||`* Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963pete...@gmail.com
|| `* Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963James Nicoll
||  +- Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963pete...@gmail.com
||  `- Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963Robert Woodward
|`- Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963David E. Siegel
+- Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963Lynn McGuire
+* Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963 YASIDWolfFan
|`* Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963 YASIDAhasuerus
| `- Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963 YASIDWolfFan
+* Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963David Johnston
|+* Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963Andrew McDowell
||+* Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963David Johnston
|||`- Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963David E. Siegel
||`* Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963James Nicoll
|| +* Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963Gary R. Schmidt
|| |`- Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963James Nicoll
|| `* Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963Quadibloc
||  `* Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963Robert Woodward
||   `* Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963Default User
||    +- Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963Hamish Laws
||    `* Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963The Horny Goat
||     `- Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963pete...@gmail.com
|+* Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963Mike Spencer
||+* Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963James Nicoll
|||`- Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963James Nicoll
||`* Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963Andrew McDowell
|| `* Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963Dorothy J Heydt
||  `* Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963William Hyde
||   +- Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963Dimensional Traveler
||   `* Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963Titus G
||    `- Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963William Hyde
|`* Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963pete...@gmail.com
| +- Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963James Nicoll
| +- Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963Don
| `* Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963Default User
|  `* Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963Quadibloc
|   `* Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963Default User
|    `- Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963Dimensional Traveler
+- Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963Charles Packer
+* Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963Garrett Wollman
|+- Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963Scott Lurndal
|+* Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963Titus G
||`* Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963pete...@gmail.com
|| +* Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963Chris Buckley
|| |`* Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963Titus G
|| | `* Terra Ignota. Ada Palmer.Titus G
|| |  `* Re: Terra Ignota. Ada Palmer.Titus G
|| |   +- Re: Terra Ignota. Ada Palmer.Charles Packer
|| |   `* Re: Terra Ignota. Ada Palmer.Chris Buckley
|| |    `- Re: Terra Ignota. Ada Palmer.Titus G
|| `- Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963Titus G
|`- Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963Don
`- Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963artyw2@yahoo.com

Pages:123
A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963

<tv7i12$2gihk$1@newsreader4.netcologne.de>

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From: tkoe...@netcologne.de (Thomas Koenig)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2023 17:50:26 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Thomas Koenig - Sun, 19 Mar 2023 17:50 UTC

Suppose you're an aspiring SF writer 60 years ago, 1963.
Through some *hand wave*, you get access to information about
what has happened in the meantime - technology, major events,
social changes etc, Internet, social media, you name it, and
you decide to write a major novel set in 2023.

What would you write about?

Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963

<k7p15nFl507U3@mid.individual.net>

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From: ...@ednolan (ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963
Date: 19 Mar 2023 18:04:40 GMT
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 by: ted@loft.tnolan.com - Sun, 19 Mar 2023 18:04 UTC

In article <tv7i12$2gihk$1@newsreader4.netcologne.de>,
Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:
>Suppose you're an aspiring SF writer 60 years ago, 1963.
>Through some *hand wave*, you get access to information about
>what has happened in the meantime - technology, major events,
>social changes etc, Internet, social media, you name it, and
>you decide to write a major novel set in 2023.
>
>What would you write about?

Well, I said a while ago that everybody prognosticating missed
Cellphone Culture. So that. Probably weave the Musk "Delos D. Harriman"
story in as the plot. That lets you bring in Space, Social Media, War,
Cars, & Politics. Hopefully since it's 1963, we don't get a 70s ending..
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963

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From: lynnmcgu...@gmail.com (Lynn McGuire)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2023 13:18:34 -0500
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 by: Lynn McGuire - Sun, 19 Mar 2023 18:18 UTC

On 3/19/2023 12:50 PM, Thomas Koenig wrote:
> Suppose you're an aspiring SF writer 60 years ago, 1963.
> Through some *hand wave*, you get access to information about
> what has happened in the meantime - technology, major events,
> social changes etc, Internet, social media, you name it, and
> you decide to write a major novel set in 2023.
>
> What would you write about?

Throwing crap into the Sun.

Lynn

Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963 YASID

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 by: WolfFan - Sun, 19 Mar 2023 18:50 UTC

On Mar 19, 2023, Thomas Koenig wrote
(in article<tv7i12$2gihk$1@newsreader4.netcologne.de>):

> Suppose you're an aspiring SF writer 60 years ago, 1963.
> Through some *hand wave*, you get access to information about
> what has happened in the meantime - technology, major events,
> social changes etc, Internet, social media, you name it, and
> you decide to write a major novel set in 2023.
>
> What would you write about?

Been done, kinda. I can’t remember the name of the story or the author,
but...

Obvious RAH clone goes to obvious JWC clone with a manuscript... of a story
that JWC has just published, under someone else’s name. They track down the
author. She’s a time-traveller from the near future, and has sold stories
like the RAH-type story, a Clarke story is specifically mentioned as being in
the process of being liberated from Playboy, and also some ’near-future’
stories, including ’Tet Offensive’ and ‘Houston, We Have a Problem’.
The RAH clone has a little talk with her, and is introduced to desktop
computers, impact printers (my girl departed the future prior to the Great
Replacement of daisy-wheel and dot-matrix printers by lasers and inkjets, or
maybe she figured to get better use out of the impact printers, remember that
in the long-lost 1950s you had to submit actual hardcopy and laser or inkjet
printed copy might be remarked upon.) and to Star Wars. Obvious RAH clone is
not as wild about ‘free love’ as RAH, (or at least RAH in print, no idea
how he behaved irl) turns time-traveller’s advances down.

Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963

<20230319b@crcomp.net>

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From: g...@crcomp.net (Don)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2023 19:11:31 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Don - Sun, 19 Mar 2023 19:11 UTC

Ted Nolan wrote:
> Thomas Koenig wrote:
>>Suppose you're an aspiring SF writer 60 years ago, 1963.
>>Through some *hand wave*, you get access to information about
>>what has happened in the meantime - technology, major events,
>>social changes etc, Internet, social media, you name it, and
>>you decide to write a major novel set in 2023.
>>
>>What would you write about?
>
> Well, I said a while ago that everybody prognosticating missed
> Cellphone Culture. So that. Probably weave the Musk "Delos D. Harriman"
> story in as the plot. That lets you bring in Space, Social Media, War,
> Cars, & Politics. Hopefully since it's 1963, we don't get a 70s ending..

Yes! Cellphone Culture changed the world as we knew it. Meanwhile the
meta-verse fights for control of grandpa's websites...

Danke,

--
Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``. https://crcomp.net/reviews.php
telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,. Walk humbly with thy God.
tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.' Make 1984 fiction again.

Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963 YASID

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Subject: Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963 YASID
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 by: Ahasuerus - Sun, 19 Mar 2023 19:25 UTC

On Sunday, March 19, 2023 at 2:50:50 PM UTC-4, WolfFan wrote:
> On Mar 19, 2023, Thomas Koenig wrote
> (in article<tv7i12$2gihk$1...@newsreader4.netcologne.de>):
> > Suppose you're an aspiring SF writer 60 years ago, 1963.
> > Through some *hand wave*, you get access to information about
> > what has happened in the meantime - technology, major events,
> > social changes etc, Internet, social media, you name it, and
> > you decide to write a major novel set in 2023.
> >
> > What would you write about?
> Been done, kinda. I can’t remember the name of the story or the author,
> but...
>
> Obvious RAH clone goes to obvious JWC clone with a manuscript... of a story
> that JWC has just published, under someone else’s name. They track down the
> author. She’s a time-traveller from the near future, and has sold stories
> like the RAH-type story, a Clarke story is specifically mentioned as being in
> the process of being liberated from Playboy, and also some ’near-future’
> stories, including ’Tet Offensive’ and ‘Houston, We Have a Problem’.
> The RAH clone has a little talk with her, and is introduced to desktop
> computers, impact printers (my girl departed the future prior to the Great
> Replacement of daisy-wheel and dot-matrix printers by lasers and inkjets, or
> maybe she figured to get better use out of the impact printers, remember that
> in the long-lost 1950s you had to submit actual hardcopy and laser or inkjet
> printed copy might be remarked upon.) and to Star Wars. Obvious RAH clone is
> not as wild about ‘free love’ as RAH, (or at least RAH in print, no idea
> how he behaved irl) turns time-traveller’s advances down.

It's Harry Turtledove's "Hindsight" (1984).
https://turtledove.fandom.com/wiki/Literary_Allusions_in_Turtledove%27s_Work
says that "Pete Lundquist" was based on Isaac Asimov, but I thought
the character was closer to Poul Anderson. "Jim McGregor", the
editor of _Astonishing_, was, of course, based on Campbell.
(Presumably Frederik Pohl's _Astonishing Stories_, 1941-1943,
didn't exist in that alternative history.)

Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963 YASID

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 by: WolfFan - Sun, 19 Mar 2023 19:28 UTC

On Mar 19, 2023, Ahasuerus wrote
(in article<9297a988-0064-4cd5-adea-9f0b1d97c3ccn@googlegroups.com>):

> On Sunday, March 19, 2023 at 2:50:50 PM UTC-4, WolfFan wrote:
> > On Mar 19, 2023, Thomas Koenig wrote
> > (in article<tv7i12$2gihk$1...@newsreader4.netcologne.de>):
> > > Suppose you're an aspiring SF writer 60 years ago, 1963.
> > > Through some *hand wave*, you get access to information about
> > > what has happened in the meantime - technology, major events,
> > > social changes etc, Internet, social media, you name it, and
> > > you decide to write a major novel set in 2023.
> > >
> > > What would you write about?
> > Been done, kinda. I can’t remember the name of the story or the author,
> > but...
> >
> > Obvious RAH clone goes to obvious JWC clone with a manuscript... of a story
> > that JWC has just published, under someone else’s name. They track down
> > the
> > author. She’s a time-traveller from the near future, and has sold stories
> > like the RAH-type story, a Clarke story is specifically mentioned as being
> > in
> > the process of being liberated from Playboy, and also some ’near-future’
> > stories, including ’Tet Offensive’ and ‘Houston, We Have a Problem’.
> > The RAH clone has a little talk with her, and is introduced to desktop
> > computers, impact printers (my girl departed the future prior to the Great
> > Replacement of daisy-wheel and dot-matrix printers by lasers and inkjets, or
> > maybe she figured to get better use out of the impact printers, remember
> > that
> > in the long-lost 1950s you had to submit actual hardcopy and laser or inkjet
> > printed copy might be remarked upon.) and to Star Wars. Obvious RAH clone is
> > not as wild about ‘free love’ as RAH, (or at least RAH in print, no idea
> > how he behaved irl) turns time-traveller’s advances down.
>
> It's Harry Turtledove's "Hindsight" (1984).
> https://turtledove.fandom.com/wiki/Literary_Allusions_in_Turtledove%27s_Work
> says that "Pete Lundquist" was based on Isaac Asimov, but I thought
> the character was closer to Poul Anderson. "Jim McGregor", the
> editor of _Astonishing_, was, of course, based on Campbell.
> (Presumably Frederik Pohl's _Astonishing Stories_, 1941-1943,
> didn't exist in that alternative history.)

Ah. Thanks. I could have sworn it was RAH...

Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963

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From: davidjoh...@yahoo.com (David Johnston)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2023 18:34:27 -0600
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 by: David Johnston - Mon, 20 Mar 2023 00:34 UTC

On 2023-03-19 11:50 a.m., Thomas Koenig wrote:
> Suppose you're an aspiring SF writer 60 years ago, 1963.
> Through some *hand wave*, you get access to information about
> what has happened in the meantime - technology, major events,
> social changes etc, Internet, social media, you name it, and
> you decide to write a major novel set in 2023.
>
> What would you write about?

Whatever it was, it would have to be heavy on the internet since that's
the most science fictiony thing about actual 21st century life.
Sometimes I think about how far you'd have to go back in time for a
modern story to work as science fiction and it's usually pretty far back
unless someone in the story has a strong online involvement

Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963

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Subject: Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963
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 by: Andrew McDowell - Mon, 20 Mar 2023 05:31 UTC

On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 12:34:34 AM UTC, David Johnston wrote:
> On 2023-03-19 11:50 a.m., Thomas Koenig wrote:
> > Suppose you're an aspiring SF writer 60 years ago, 1963.
> > Through some *hand wave*, you get access to information about
> > what has happened in the meantime - technology, major events,
> > social changes etc, Internet, social media, you name it, and
> > you decide to write a major novel set in 2023.
> >
> > What would you write about?
> Whatever it was, it would have to be heavy on the internet since that's
> the most science fictiony thing about actual 21st century life.
> Sometimes I think about how far you'd have to go back in time for a
> modern story to work as science fiction and it's usually pretty far back
> unless someone in the story has a strong online involvement
Science Fiction did not predict the fall of the Soviet Union, so the invasion of a westward looking Ukraine by an authoritarian but non-communist Russia would be so daring as perhaps to be difficult to sell. Precision munitions spotted by drone certainly counts as Science Fiction, though again it might be difficult to combine this convincingly with WWI style trench warfare waged by troops carrying entrenching tools as well as assault rifles. mRNA Covid vaccines might be an easier sell, even topical, as the Nobel Prize for the discovery of DNA was awarded in 1962.

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From: mds...@bogus.nodomain.nowhere (Mike Spencer)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963
Date: 20 Mar 2023 03:26:41 -0300
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 by: Mike Spencer - Mon, 20 Mar 2023 06:26 UTC

David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> writes:

> On 2023-03-19 11:50 a.m., Thomas Koenig wrote:
> > Suppose you're an aspiring SF writer 60 years ago, 1963.
> > Through some *hand wave*, you get access to information about
> > what has happened in the meantime - technology, major events,
> > social changes etc, Internet, social media, you name it, and
> > you decide to write a major novel set in 2023.
> >
> > What would you write about?
>
> Whatever it was, it would have to be heavy on the internet since that's
> the most science fictiony thing about actual 21st century life.
> Sometimes I think about how far you'd have to go back in time for a
> modern story to work as science fiction and it's usually pretty far back
> unless someone in the story has a strong online involvement

In 1963, there were just as many crazy people as now -- gun freaks,
believers in space aliens, demon possession or rays, haters of Jews,
gays, blacks, whites, foreigners, abortionists or vegetarians,
conspiracy freaks and religious fanatics of numerous kinds. But the
internet and cell phones have made two things possible that weren't
possible in '63: (1) They can find each other, however socially or
geographically separated, and form cabals and (2) by the same token &
medium, they can be collectively manipulated by Machiavellian
exploiters.

There used to be talk about how the one good thing TV brought us was a
unified view of the world, a base line, however unreal, for culture.
The thousand-channel universe of cable disrupted that. The internet
and phone-chat media have totally demolished it. Even university
education, now that PoMo has infiltrated almost everything other than
hard science, offers no respite from media-engendered social
fragmentation into self-isolated cabals of crazy belief.

That's the story of Tomorrow. How would you depict that convioncingly
to a reader in '63?

--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada

Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963

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Subject: Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963
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 by: Charles Packer - Mon, 20 Mar 2023 07:59 UTC

On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 17:50:26 +0000, Thomas Koenig wrote:

> Suppose you're an aspiring SF writer 60 years ago, 1963. Through some
> *hand wave*, you get access to information about what has happened in
> the meantime - technology, major events,
> social changes etc, Internet, social media, you name it, and you decide
> to write a major novel set in 2023.
>
> What would you write about?

By the 1960s it was clear that all of recorded history could be
vacuumed up and deposited in electronic memory banks. I would
write about 2023 protagonists who use Big Data tools to discover
that toward the end of the 19th century British and German
scholars had gotten together and joined with American rich
industrialists to secretly gain control of the emerging mass
media and use North American culture as a testing laboratory
for cultural manipulation.

Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963

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From: davidjoh...@yahoo.com (David Johnston)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2023 02:40:38 -0600
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 by: David Johnston - Mon, 20 Mar 2023 08:40 UTC

On 2023-03-19 11:31 p.m., Andrew McDowell wrote:
> On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 12:34:34 AM UTC, David Johnston wrote:
>> On 2023-03-19 11:50 a.m., Thomas Koenig wrote:
>>> Suppose you're an aspiring SF writer 60 years ago, 1963. Through
>>> some *hand wave*, you get access to information about what has
>>> happened in the meantime - technology, major events, social
>>> changes etc, Internet, social media, you name it, and you decide
>>> to write a major novel set in 2023.
>>>
>>> What would you write about?
>> Whatever it was, it would have to be heavy on the internet since
>> that's the most science fictiony thing about actual 21st century
>> life. Sometimes I think about how far you'd have to go back in time
>> for a modern story to work as science fiction and it's usually
>> pretty far back unless someone in the story has a strong online
>> involvement
> Science Fiction did not predict the fall of the Soviet Union, so the
> invasion of a westward looking Ukraine by an authoritarian but
> non-communist Russia would be so daring as perhaps to be difficult to
> sell. Precision munitions spotted by drone certainly counts as
> Science Fiction, though again it might be difficult to combine this
> convincingly with WWI style trench warfare waged by troops carrying
> entrenching tools as well as assault rifles. mRNA Covid vaccines
> might be an easier sell, even topical, as the Nobel Prize for the
> discovery of DNA was awarded in 1962.

Not every technological advance has narrative value. mRNA vaccines are
actually pretty dull stuff. The COVID outbreak itself has narrative
potential as a backdrop. You could do a story along the lines of a
person confined for months by quarantining, turning to online gaming and
and ending up addicted to virtual experience while afraid to leave their
house.

Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963

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From: jdnic...@panix.com (James Nicoll)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2023 13:06:23 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: James Nicoll - Mon, 20 Mar 2023 13:06 UTC

In article <21fb9ff0-da12-4de1-aece-5eefa0fc6236n@googlegroups.com>,
Andrew McDowell <mcdowell_ag@sky.com> wrote:

>Science Fiction did not predict the fall of the Soviet Union, so
>the invasion of a westward looking Ukraine by an authoritarian
>but non-communist Russia would be so daring as perhaps to be
>difficult to sell.

Well, not the peaceful fall, at any rate.

George Turner's Beloved Sun has a crew of intrepid (and largely
doomed) starfarers return from Barnard's Star to discover that
in the years they were gone, WWIII and what followed rearranged
the world significantly. As I recall, Russia abandoned communism
but managed to preserve the unpleasantness.

--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

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Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2023 13:09:42 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: James Nicoll - Mon, 20 Mar 2023 13:09 UTC

In article <87pm94c50e.fsf@enoch.nodomain.nowhere>,
Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>> On 2023-03-19 11:50 a.m., Thomas Koenig wrote:
>> > Suppose you're an aspiring SF writer 60 years ago, 1963.
>> > Through some *hand wave*, you get access to information about
>> > what has happened in the meantime - technology, major events,
>> > social changes etc, Internet, social media, you name it, and
>> > you decide to write a major novel set in 2023.
>> >
>> > What would you write about?
>>
>> Whatever it was, it would have to be heavy on the internet
>since that's
>> the most science fictiony thing about actual 21st century life.
>> Sometimes I think about how far you'd have to go back in time for a
>> modern story to work as science fiction and it's usually pretty
>far back
>> unless someone in the story has a strong online involvement
>
>In 1963, there were just as many crazy people as now -- gun freaks,
>believers in space aliens, demon possession or rays, haters of Jews,
>gays, blacks, whites, foreigners, abortionists or vegetarians,
>conspiracy freaks and religious fanatics of numerous kinds. But the
>internet and cell phones have made two things possible that weren't
>possible in '63: (1) They can find each other, however socially or
>geographically separated, and form cabals and (2) by the same token &
>medium, they can be collectively manipulated by Machiavellian
>exploiters.
>
>There used to be talk about how the one good thing TV brought us was a
>unified view of the world, a base line, however unreal, for culture.
>The thousand-channel universe of cable disrupted that. The internet
>and phone-chat media have totally demolished it. Even university
>education, now that PoMo has infiltrated almost everything other than
>hard science, offers no respite from media-engendered social
>fragmentation into self-isolated cabals of crazy belief.
>
>That's the story of Tomorrow. How would you depict that convioncingly
>to a reader in '63?

Missing Man by Katherine MacLean features a radically fragmented
society, although being pre-internet hers works physically. Everyone
has their own neighbourhood and they do their best to ignore the
others.

--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

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Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963
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 by: James Nicoll - Mon, 20 Mar 2023 13:11 UTC

In article <tv9lum$abl$2@reader2.panix.com>,
James Nicoll <jdnicoll@panix.com> wrote:
>In article <87pm94c50e.fsf@enoch.nodomain.nowhere>,
>Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>>David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 2023-03-19 11:50 a.m., Thomas Koenig wrote:
>>> > Suppose you're an aspiring SF writer 60 years ago, 1963.
>>> > Through some *hand wave*, you get access to information about
>>> > what has happened in the meantime - technology, major events,
>>> > social changes etc, Internet, social media, you name it, and
>>> > you decide to write a major novel set in 2023.
>>> >
>>> > What would you write about?
>>>
>>> Whatever it was, it would have to be heavy on the internet
>>since that's
>>> the most science fictiony thing about actual 21st century life.
>>> Sometimes I think about how far you'd have to go back in time for a
>>> modern story to work as science fiction and it's usually pretty
>>far back
>>> unless someone in the story has a strong online involvement
>>
>>In 1963, there were just as many crazy people as now -- gun freaks,
>>believers in space aliens, demon possession or rays, haters of Jews,
>>gays, blacks, whites, foreigners, abortionists or vegetarians,
>>conspiracy freaks and religious fanatics of numerous kinds. But the
>>internet and cell phones have made two things possible that weren't
>>possible in '63: (1) They can find each other, however socially or
>>geographically separated, and form cabals and (2) by the same token &
>>medium, they can be collectively manipulated by Machiavellian
>>exploiters.
>>
>>There used to be talk about how the one good thing TV brought us was a
>>unified view of the world, a base line, however unreal, for culture.
>>The thousand-channel universe of cable disrupted that. The internet
>>and phone-chat media have totally demolished it. Even university
>>education, now that PoMo has infiltrated almost everything other than
>>hard science, offers no respite from media-engendered social
>>fragmentation into self-isolated cabals of crazy belief.
>>
>>That's the story of Tomorrow. How would you depict that convioncingly
>>to a reader in '63?
>
>Missing Man by Katherine MacLean features a radically fragmented
>society, although being pre-internet hers works physically. Everyone
>has their own neighbourhood and they do their best to ignore the
>others.

For that matter, Poul Anderson's The Byworlder has an internet of
sorts, filled with all the info you might want (almost). Hardcopy
output only, though.

--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963

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Subject: Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963
From: mcdowell...@sky.com (Andrew McDowell)
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 by: Andrew McDowell - Mon, 20 Mar 2023 18:06 UTC

On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 6:26:46 AM UTC, Mike Spencer wrote:
> David Johnston <davidjo...@yahoo.com> writes:
>
> > On 2023-03-19 11:50 a.m., Thomas Koenig wrote:
> > > Suppose you're an aspiring SF writer 60 years ago, 1963.
> > > Through some *hand wave*, you get access to information about
> > > what has happened in the meantime - technology, major events,
> > > social changes etc, Internet, social media, you name it, and
> > > you decide to write a major novel set in 2023.
> > >
> > > What would you write about?
> >
> > Whatever it was, it would have to be heavy on the internet since that's
> > the most science fictiony thing about actual 21st century life.
> > Sometimes I think about how far you'd have to go back in time for a
> > modern story to work as science fiction and it's usually pretty far back
> > unless someone in the story has a strong online involvement
> In 1963, there were just as many crazy people as now -- gun freaks,
> believers in space aliens, demon possession or rays, haters of Jews,
> gays, blacks, whites, foreigners, abortionists or vegetarians,
> conspiracy freaks and religious fanatics of numerous kinds. But the
> internet and cell phones have made two things possible that weren't
> possible in '63: (1) They can find each other, however socially or
> geographically separated, and form cabals and (2) by the same token &
> medium, they can be collectively manipulated by Machiavellian
> exploiters.
>
> There used to be talk about how the one good thing TV brought us was a
> unified view of the world, a base line, however unreal, for culture.
> The thousand-channel universe of cable disrupted that. The internet
> and phone-chat media have totally demolished it. Even university
> education, now that PoMo has infiltrated almost everything other than
> hard science, offers no respite from media-engendered social
> fragmentation into self-isolated cabals of crazy belief.
>
> That's the story of Tomorrow. How would you depict that convioncingly
> to a reader in '63?
>
>
> --
> Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
Unfortunately, it's not just Post-Modernism, and it is infiltrating what should be hard science. I have been reading the flagship magazine of the major American academic computer society, CACM, since the 1980s. I started this to read about clever things being done in and with computers. Of course, as computer science has become much more specialised, it has been harder and harder for them to produce articles for a general readership, and they have talked about initiatives to attract practitioners like me. In the March 2023 issue (which was not a special issue devoted to a particular topic) I counted 13 out of 20 articles which had managed to avoid technicalities by focusing on pretty much the same subject, typically called something to do with ethics. This is how AI and automated decision making were grave threats and how all those involved should refuse to work on anything not politically acceptable. Based on these and similar issues, I understand that there are required courses in this, too, where perhaps students can find relief from the stressful activity of getting a program to work by writing essays on how all computer scientists should in fact refuse to pursue activities not regarded as ethical by the ACM.

I am reminded of a no doubt apocryptal story about Saddams nuclear bomb program. The worrying thing was that the US Manhattan project created a working bomb in a few years, starting off by not even knowing that such a thing was practical. Saddam had managed to get some of his scientists expensively educated in nuclear physics at a great American university - how close had they come to creating an Iraqi bomb? As we all know, there was no Iraqi bomb, but the secret reason behind this was - the Iraqi scientists were faithfully following their training, and had not yet finished writing the environmental impact statement.

Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963

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From: djhe...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
Subject: Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963
Message-ID: <rru6vq.DIz@kithrup.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2023 20:43:02 GMT
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 by: Dorothy J Heydt - Mon, 20 Mar 2023 20:43 UTC

In article <33ec72a1-9225-40fa-b969-e3e506c9539cn@googlegroups.com>,
Andrew McDowell <mcdowell_ag@sky.com> wrote:
>Based on these and similar issues, I understand that there
>are required courses in this, too, where perhaps students can find
>relief from the stressful activity of getting a program to work by
>writing essays on how all computer scientists should in fact refuse to
>pursue activities not regarded as ethical by the ACM.

(Hal Heydt)
Thinking back to my college years, I'd've found writting essays
much more stressful than writing and debugging programs.

Sort of side note... Another effort out there is the expand the
number of people that understand computers well enough grasp the
issues. The idea being to make computer acccess cheap enough
that every parent can afford one, that if broken, won't cause
serious household budget issues. That's much of the point behind
the Raspberry Pi Foundation.

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Subject: Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963
From: wthyde1...@gmail.com (William Hyde)
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 by: William Hyde - Mon, 20 Mar 2023 22:16 UTC

On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 4:55:36 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <33ec72a1-9225-40fa...@googlegroups.com>,
> Andrew McDowell <mcdow...@sky.com> wrote:
> >Based on these and similar issues, I understand that there
> >are required courses in this, too, where perhaps students can find
> >relief from the stressful activity of getting a program to work by
> >writing essays on how all computer scientists should in fact refuse to
> >pursue activities not regarded as ethical by the ACM.
> (Hal Heydt)
> Thinking back to my college years, I'd've found writting essays
> much more stressful than writing and debugging programs.

Absolutely.

More satisfying by far, also.

William Hyde

Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963

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 by: Dimensional Traveler - Mon, 20 Mar 2023 23:58 UTC

On 3/20/2023 3:16 PM, William Hyde wrote:
> On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 4:55:36 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> In article <33ec72a1-9225-40fa...@googlegroups.com>,
>> Andrew McDowell <mcdow...@sky.com> wrote:
>>> Based on these and similar issues, I understand that there
>>> are required courses in this, too, where perhaps students can find
>>> relief from the stressful activity of getting a program to work by
>>> writing essays on how all computer scientists should in fact refuse to
>>> pursue activities not regarded as ethical by the ACM.
>> (Hal Heydt)
>> Thinking back to my college years, I'd've found writting essays
>> much more stressful than writing and debugging programs.
>
> Absolutely.
>
> More satisfying by far, also.
>
One suspects in part because writing a program has a definitive,
objective goal to complete. School essays are more of a "WTF does the
teacher want to hear?" exercise.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963

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 by: Titus G - Mon, 20 Mar 2023 23:58 UTC

On 21/03/23 11:16, William Hyde wrote:
> On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 4:55:36 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> In article <33ec72a1-9225-40fa...@googlegroups.com>,
>> Andrew McDowell <mcdow...@sky.com> wrote:
>>> Based on these and similar issues, I understand that there
>>> are required courses in this, too, where perhaps students can find
>>> relief from the stressful activity of getting a program to work by
>>> writing essays on how all computer scientists should in fact refuse to
>>> pursue activities not regarded as ethical by the ACM.
>> (Hal Heydt)
>> Thinking back to my college years, I'd've found writting essays
>> much more stressful than writing and debugging programs.
>
> Absolutely.
>

I also agree but I was never faced with programming deadlines.

> More satisfying by far, also.

Not so sure on that aspect. When employed as a programmer, there was
pride through accomplishment, through achieving compliance with the
system analysts' specifications or later when programming for myself,
there was the further satisfaction of system design.
Perhaps the main satisfaction for my essay writing was avoiding stress
by meeting a deadline or achieving a grade. But I am no Robertson Davies.

Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963

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Subject: Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963
From: jgh...@mdfs.net (Jonathan Harston)
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 by: Jonathan Harston - Tue, 21 Mar 2023 01:17 UTC

On Sunday, March 19, 2023 at 6:04:45 PM UTC, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> Well, I said a while ago that everybody prognosticating missed
> Cellphone Culture.

Maybe not quite. There's a scene in the second Motie book where
there's a meeting, which goes something like:
Blaine waited slightly impatently as people synchronsed their
pocket computers with the ship's systems, and waited for the
beeps and chirps to die down as people took their seats.

Exactly like today's always-on smart device culture.

Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963

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From: woll...@bimajority.org (Garrett Wollman)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2023 02:18:13 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Garrett Wollman - Tue, 21 Mar 2023 02:18 UTC

In article <tv7i12$2gihk$1@newsreader4.netcologne.de>,
Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:
>Suppose you're an aspiring SF writer 60 years ago, 1963.
>Through some *hand wave*, you get access to information about
>what has happened in the meantime - technology, major events,
>social changes etc, Internet, social media, you name it, and
>you decide to write a major novel set in 2023.
>
>What would you write about?

This reminds me of a couple of things:

First, one of Asimov's F&SF essays, titled "What Truck?", published in
the mid-80s, was about the SF writers who could have foreseen space
travel but for one reason or another misunderstood the science.

Second, there was a book published in 1985 called THE 2025 REPORT,
shelved as non-fiction, which impressionable tween me read when it
landed on the new-books shelf in the public library. (I hesitate to
look up who wrote it because it was probably by someone dreadful.) It
was catalogued as nonfiction but it was written from the perspective
of someone in 2025 writing about the past forty years of their
timeline's history, and from what I recall it totally missed the
mark. The author was some flavor of techno-libertarian and was
certain that nation-states would have completely dissolved by then and
everyone would belong to the state of their choice without regard to
where they lived or what they did. (I can think of a few modern
writers with better thought out takes on this idea.)

Even among supposed contemporary experts, who correctly called the
miniaturization revolution or the extent to which it was driven by
industrial policy in a modernizing China?

-GAWollman

--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
wollman@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)

Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963

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 by: Scott Lurndal - Tue, 21 Mar 2023 02:23 UTC

wollman@bimajority.org (Garrett Wollman) writes:
>In article <tv7i12$2gihk$1@newsreader4.netcologne.de>,
>Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:
>>Suppose you're an aspiring SF writer 60 years ago, 1963.
>>Through some *hand wave*, you get access to information about
>>what has happened in the meantime - technology, major events,
>>social changes etc, Internet, social media, you name it, and
>>you decide to write a major novel set in 2023.
>>
>>What would you write about?
>
>This reminds me of a couple of things:
>
>First, one of Asimov's F&SF essays, titled "What Truck?", published in
>the mid-80s, was about the SF writers who could have foreseen space
>travel but for one reason or another misunderstood the science.
>
>Second, there was a book published in 1985 called THE 2025 REPORT,

https://www.amazon.com/2025-Report-Concise-History-1975-2025/dp/0025790900

>shelved as non-fiction, which impressionable tween me read when it
>landed on the new-books shelf in the public library. (I hesitate to
>look up who wrote it because it was probably by someone dreadful.) It
>was catalogued as nonfiction but it was written from the perspective
>of someone in 2025 writing about the past forty years of their
>timeline's history, and from what I recall it totally missed the

>mark. The author was some flavor of techno-libertarian and was
>certain that nation-states would have completely dissolved by then and

According to reviews on the amazon link above, he predicted
the fall of the soviet union and he coined 'telecommuting'.

Will have to search out a copy.

Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963

<pmhnej-r46.ln1@paranoia.mcleod-schmidt.id.au>

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From: grschm...@acm.org (Gary R. Schmidt)
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Subject: Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963
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 by: Gary R. Schmidt - Tue, 21 Mar 2023 02:34 UTC

On 21/03/2023 00:06, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <21fb9ff0-da12-4de1-aece-5eefa0fc6236n@googlegroups.com>,
> Andrew McDowell <mcdowell_ag@sky.com> wrote:
>
>> Science Fiction did not predict the fall of the Soviet Union, so
>> the invasion of a westward looking Ukraine by an authoritarian
>> but non-communist Russia would be so daring as perhaps to be
>> difficult to sell.
>
> Well, not the peaceful fall, at any rate.
>
> George Turner's Beloved Sun has a crew of intrepid (and largely
> doomed) starfarers return from Barnard's Star to discover that
> in the years they were gone, WWIII and what followed rearranged
> the world significantly. As I recall, Russia abandoned communism
> but managed to preserve the unpleasantness.
>
Gentle correction, 'tis, "Beloved Son".

Cheers,
Gary B-)

Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963

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From: noo...@nowhere.com (Titus G)
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Subject: Re: A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963
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 by: Titus G - Tue, 21 Mar 2023 02:41 UTC

On 21/03/23 15:18, Garrett Wollman wrote:
snip

> mark. The author was some flavor of techno-libertarian and was
> certain that nation-states would have completely dissolved by then and
> everyone would belong to the state of their choice without regard to
> where they lived or what they did. (I can think of a few modern
> writers with better thought out takes on this idea.)

I don't think I have come across that societal possibility for people
and am interested. Would you please provide a title or two?
(If more than two, please rank them :-))

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