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arts / rec.arts.sf.written / Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

SubjectAuthor
* What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?pete...@gmail.com
+* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Scott Lurndal
|`* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan
| `- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan
+- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?artyw2@yahoo.com
+- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?James Nicoll
+* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Andrew McDowell
|`* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Paul S Person
| +- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Dorothy J Heydt
| `- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Andrew McDowell
+* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Quadibloc
|`* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Robert Carnegie
| `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?William Hyde
|  `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
|   `- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?William Hyde
+* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
|`* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?William Hyde
| `- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan
+* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?David Johnston
|`* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Scott Lurndal
| +* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?James Nicoll
| |`* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?pete...@gmail.com
| | +* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Dimensional Traveler
| | |+- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?pete...@gmail.com
| | |`* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Paul S Person
| | | +- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Dimensional Traveler
| | | +* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?pete...@gmail.com
| | | |`* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Paul S Person
| | | | +* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Scott Lurndal
| | | | |+* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?pete...@gmail.com
| | | | ||+- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Dimensional Traveler
| | | | ||`- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Paul S Person
| | | | |+- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
| | | | |`* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Paul S Person
| | | | | +* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?pete...@gmail.com
| | | | | |`- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Paul S Person
| | | | | +- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?The Horny Goat
| | | | | +* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Jay E. Morris
| | | | | |`* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Paul S Person
| | | | | | +- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
| | | | | | `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?The Horny Goat
| | | | | |  `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Scott Lurndal
| | | | | |   `- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?The Horny Goat
| | | | | `- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
| | | | `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Dimensional Traveler
| | | |  `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Paul S Person
| | | |   `- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?pete...@gmail.com
| | | `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?pete...@gmail.com
| | |  `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Paul S Person
| | |   +* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Robert Woodward
| | |   |`- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Paul S Person
| | |   `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?pete...@gmail.com
| | |    `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Scott Lurndal
| | |     `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
| | |      +* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Scott Lurndal
| | |      |+* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Paul S Person
| | |      ||`* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?James Nicoll
| | |      || `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
| | |      ||  `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?William Hyde
| | |      ||   `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
| | |      ||    `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?William Hyde
| | |      ||     +- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Paul S Person
| | |      ||     `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
| | |      ||      +* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Scott Lurndal
| | |      ||      |+* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Paul S Person
| | |      ||      ||`- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
| | |      ||      |+* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Dimensional Traveler
| | |      ||      ||`* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?rkshullat
| | |      ||      || `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
| | |      ||      ||  `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Dimensional Traveler
| | |      ||      ||   +* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Paul S Person
| | |      ||      ||   |+* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Dimensional Traveler
| | |      ||      ||   ||+* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Dorothy J Heydt
| | |      ||      ||   |||+- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Dimensional Traveler
| | |      ||      ||   |||`- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
| | |      ||      ||   ||`* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
| | |      ||      ||   || `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?pete...@gmail.com
| | |      ||      ||   ||  +* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
| | |      ||      ||   ||  |`* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?pete...@gmail.com
| | |      ||      ||   ||  | `- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Dimensional Traveler
| | |      ||      ||   ||  `- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
| | |      ||      ||   |`* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?pete...@gmail.com
| | |      ||      ||   | +- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
| | |      ||      ||   | `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Paul S Person
| | |      ||      ||   |  `- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
| | |      ||      ||   `- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Jay E. Morris
| | |      ||      |`- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
| | |      ||      `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?William Hyde
| | |      ||       `- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
| | |      |`- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Dimensional Traveler
| | |      `- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?WolfFan
| | +* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?James Nicoll
| | |`- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lenona
| | +- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Robert Carnegie
| | `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Joy Beeson
| |  `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Magewolf
| |   `- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Dimensional Traveler
| `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?David Johnston
|  `- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Scott Lurndal
`- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lee Gleason

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Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

<bsc21ipaevu9h4kmugh2bl5v04ompea1ja@4ax.com>

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From: jbee...@invalid.net.invalid (Joy Beeson)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2023 22:56:14 -0400
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 by: Joy Beeson - Wed, 15 Mar 2023 02:56 UTC

On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 09:08:32 -0800 (PST), "pete...@gmail.com"
<petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:

> Are there ways to make having kids a much more viable and desirable
> choice than it is today?

We could start by allowing no-frills colleges to flourish. My nephew
and his wife would have liked to have more than two children, but that
was as many as they could educated.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

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From: Magew...@nc.rr.com (Magewolf)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 14:22:37 -0400
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Magewolf - Wed, 15 Mar 2023 18:22 UTC

On 3/14/23 22:56, Joy Beeson wrote:
> On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 09:08:32 -0800 (PST), "pete...@gmail.com"
> <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Are there ways to make having kids a much more viable and desirable
>> choice than it is today?
>
> We could start by allowing no-frills colleges to flourish. My nephew
> and his wife would have liked to have more than two children, but that
> was as many as they could educated.
>
Or it would be cheaper and easier to just cut out all the college degree
overreach. I was about to write most of the jobs where I work would not
need degrees when I was young but thinking about it for us it would be
less than half since we run a rather lean ship and even back in the day
most of us would have needed degrees of some sort. However nowadays I
can not think of anyone who works here who did not go to college. And
it is much worse at most companies.

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

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From: dtra...@sonic.net (Dimensional Traveler)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 14:50:57 -0700
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 by: Dimensional Traveler - Wed, 15 Mar 2023 21:50 UTC

On 3/15/2023 11:22 AM, Magewolf wrote:
> On 3/14/23 22:56, Joy Beeson wrote:
>> On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 09:08:32 -0800 (PST), "pete...@gmail.com"
>> <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Are there ways to make having kids a much more viable and desirable
>>> choice than it is today?
>>
>> We could start by allowing no-frills colleges to flourish.  My nephew
>> and his wife would have liked to have more than two children, but that
>> was as many as they could educated.
>>
> Or it would be cheaper and easier to just cut out all the college degree
> overreach. I was about to write most of the jobs where I work would not
> need degrees when I was young but thinking about it for us it would be
> less than half since we run a rather lean ship and even back in the day
> most of us would have needed degrees of some sort.  However nowadays I
> can not think of anyone who works here who did not go to college.  And
> it is much worse at most companies.
>
The real issue is that universities and colleges have gotten out of the
mindset of "We are here to educate" and into the mindset of "We are here
to be the most prestigious!" So in pursuit of that prestige they
compete to hire professors that the general population has never heard
of but are "big names" in academic circles. Which results in exorbitant
salaries that drive up the costs of a college degree.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

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From: lynnmcgu...@gmail.com (Lynn McGuire)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 17:36:09 -0500
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 by: Lynn McGuire - Wed, 15 Mar 2023 22:36 UTC

On 3/13/2023 3:20 PM, rkshullat@rosettacondot.com wrote:
> Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>> On 3/13/2023 8:16 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> On 3/11/2023 6:50 PM, William Hyde wrote:
>>>>> On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 3:02:43 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/11/2023 1:19 PM, William Hyde wrote:
>>>>>>> On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 5:28:07 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/10/2023 11:29 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In article <pdom0ih64j66amff3...@4ax.com>,
>>>>>>>>> Paul S Person <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Well, I suppose it's /possible/ that people don't wear clothing or
>>>>>>>>>> have utilities in Texas.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I don't know about the first but the news suggests utilities are
>>>>>>>>> at best a sometimes thing in Texas.
>>>>>>>> Just for 96 hours in Feb 2021 as the electricity was rationed to those
>>>>>>>> who needed it the most during the 47% shortfall in generation (45,000
>>>>>>>> MW) versus demand (85,000 MW). And the biennial hurricanes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When I first moved to Texas I was shocked at the frequency of power outages,
>>>>>>> even accounting for the occasional hurricane remnant hitting College Station.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> However, we have since caught up with you.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> William Hyde
>>>>>> We, as in Canada ?
>>>>>
>>>>> Ontario, anyway. The problem is familiar, aging infrastructure, no political benefit in being
>>>>> the one to fix it. Because look what we did! Tax Cuts! Windmills!
>>>>>
>>>>> To be fair, 2023 has been good so far, at least in my area. But an earlier round of
>>>>> tax cuts led to thousands of people being poisoned, seven deaths and quite a few
>>>>> people with permanent disabilities. But that was water, not hydro.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If so, sorry. Life is difficult and constant unlimited electricity
>>>>>> makes it easier.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have lights and books. The house doesn't get below freezing, or not much. It could be
>>>>> far worse.
>>>>>
>>>>> William Hyde
>>>>
>>>> Windmills suck in Texas. The blasted things freeze up below 25 F in
>>>
>>> So do texas fossil fuel power plants, apparantly.
>>>
>>> "Natural gas power generating facilities had equipment freeze up and faced shortages of fuel"
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Texas_power_crisis
>>>
>> Apparently the important Texans don't believe it ever gets below
>> freezing in Texas.
>
> I think the short summary is that everybody wants it fixed but nobody wants
> to pay for it. Texas politicicians are as stupid, but not so stupid as to
> believe that legislating things makes the cost go away. It will have to get
> much more frequent before it gets addressed, at which point everyone will have
> a meltdown because the cost of electricity will rise dramatically. EVs and heat
> pumps are only going to make the problem worse...Texas is used to having
> electricity consumption drop by half or more in the winter.
>
> Robert

The problem with winter time electricity consumption in Texas is that
the weather is either moderate or cold or bitterly cold. The forecasts
are worthless a week out so ERCOT must be prepared. It costs money for
power plants to be manned around the clock so no one is at the power
plant if it is offline. Offline = zero income.

Texas is now changing the rules so that if the power plant is available
during emergencies, that power plant will be paid extra money for being
online. This is a departure from Texas's only paying for electricity
output.

Lynn

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

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From: dtra...@sonic.net (Dimensional Traveler)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 19:45:13 -0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Dimensional Traveler - Thu, 16 Mar 2023 02:45 UTC

On 3/15/2023 3:36 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 3/13/2023 3:20 PM, rkshullat@rosettacondot.com wrote:
>> Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>>> On 3/13/2023 8:16 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>> On 3/11/2023 6:50 PM, William Hyde wrote:
>>>>>> On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 3:02:43 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/11/2023 1:19 PM, William Hyde wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 5:28:07 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 3/10/2023 11:29 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In article <pdom0ih64j66amff3...@4ax.com>,
>>>>>>>>>> Paul S Person <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Well, I suppose it's /possible/ that people don't wear
>>>>>>>>>>> clothing or
>>>>>>>>>>> have utilities in Texas.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I don't know about the first but the news suggests utilities are
>>>>>>>>>> at best a sometimes thing in Texas.
>>>>>>>>> Just for 96 hours in Feb 2021 as the electricity was rationed
>>>>>>>>> to those
>>>>>>>>> who needed it the most during the 47% shortfall in generation
>>>>>>>>> (45,000
>>>>>>>>> MW) versus demand (85,000 MW). And the biennial hurricanes.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> When I first moved to Texas I was shocked at the frequency of
>>>>>>>> power outages,
>>>>>>>> even accounting for the occasional hurricane remnant hitting
>>>>>>>> College Station.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> However, we have since caught up with you.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> William Hyde
>>>>>>> We, as in Canada ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ontario, anyway.  The problem is familiar, aging infrastructure,
>>>>>> no political benefit in being
>>>>>> the one to fix it.  Because look what we did!  Tax Cuts! Windmills!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To be fair, 2023 has been good so far, at least in my area.  But
>>>>>> an earlier round of
>>>>>> tax cuts led to thousands of people being poisoned, seven deaths
>>>>>> and quite a few
>>>>>> people with permanent disabilities.   But that was water, not hydro.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If so, sorry. Life is difficult and constant unlimited electricity
>>>>>>> makes it easier.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have lights and books.  The house doesn't get below freezing, or
>>>>>> not much.  It could be
>>>>>> far worse.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> William Hyde
>>>>>
>>>>> Windmills suck in Texas.  The blasted things freeze up below 25 F in
>>>>
>>>> So do texas fossil fuel power plants, apparantly.
>>>>
>>>>     "Natural gas power generating facilities had equipment freeze up
>>>> and faced shortages of fuel"
>>>>
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Texas_power_crisis
>>>>
>>> Apparently the important Texans don't believe it ever gets below
>>> freezing in Texas.
>>
>> I think the short summary is that everybody wants it fixed but nobody
>> wants
>> to pay for it. Texas politicicians are as stupid, but not so stupid as to
>> believe that legislating things makes the cost go away. It will have
>> to get
>> much more frequent before it gets addressed, at which point everyone
>> will have
>> a meltdown because the cost of electricity will rise dramatically. EVs
>> and heat
>> pumps are only going to make the problem worse...Texas is used to having
>> electricity consumption drop by half or more in the winter.
>>
>>      Robert
>
> The problem with winter time electricity consumption in Texas is that
> the weather is either moderate or cold or bitterly cold.  The forecasts
> are worthless a week out so ERCOT must be prepared.  It costs money for
> power plants to be manned around the clock so no one is at the power
> plant if it is offline.  Offline = zero income.
>
> Texas is now changing the rules so that if the power plant is available
> during emergencies, that power plant will be paid extra money for being
> online.  This is a departure from Texas's only paying for electricity
> output.
>
The phrase that comes to mind is "Paying for the ability to _have_
electricity output." If you aren't willing to pay to keep the
facilities that make electricity in working order, you aren't going to
have electricity. Seems pretty self-evident to me.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

<k8e61ip4ekhd6p576rroe427i8l4lpm04s@4ax.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=86469&group=rec.arts.sf.written#86469

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From: psper...@old.netcom.invalid (Paul S Person)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2023 08:44:00 -0700
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 by: Paul S Person - Thu, 16 Mar 2023 15:44 UTC

On Wed, 15 Mar 2023 19:45:13 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
<dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:

>On 3/15/2023 3:36 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> On 3/13/2023 3:20 PM, rkshullat@rosettacondot.com wrote:
>>> Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>>>> On 3/13/2023 8:16 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>> On 3/11/2023 6:50 PM, William Hyde wrote:
>>>>>>> On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 3:02:43?PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/11/2023 1:19 PM, William Hyde wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 5:28:07?PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/10/2023 11:29 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> In article <pdom0ih64j66amff3...@4ax.com>,
>>>>>>>>>>> Paul S Person <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, I suppose it's /possible/ that people don't wear
>>>>>>>>>>>> clothing or
>>>>>>>>>>>> have utilities in Texas.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know about the first but the news suggests utilities are
>>>>>>>>>>> at best a sometimes thing in Texas.
>>>>>>>>>> Just for 96 hours in Feb 2021 as the electricity was rationed
>>>>>>>>>> to those
>>>>>>>>>> who needed it the most during the 47% shortfall in generation
>>>>>>>>>> (45,000
>>>>>>>>>> MW) versus demand (85,000 MW). And the biennial hurricanes.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> When I first moved to Texas I was shocked at the frequency of
>>>>>>>>> power outages,
>>>>>>>>> even accounting for the occasional hurricane remnant hitting
>>>>>>>>> College Station.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> However, we have since caught up with you.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> William Hyde
>>>>>>>> We, as in Canada ?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ontario, anyway.  The problem is familiar, aging infrastructure,
>>>>>>> no political benefit in being
>>>>>>> the one to fix it.  Because look what we did!  Tax Cuts! Windmills!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To be fair, 2023 has been good so far, at least in my area.  But
>>>>>>> an earlier round of
>>>>>>> tax cuts led to thousands of people being poisoned, seven deaths
>>>>>>> and quite a few
>>>>>>> people with permanent disabilities.   But that was water, not hydro.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If so, sorry. Life is difficult and constant unlimited electricity
>>>>>>>> makes it easier.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have lights and books.  The house doesn't get below freezing, or
>>>>>>> not much.  It could be
>>>>>>> far worse.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> William Hyde
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Windmills suck in Texas.  The blasted things freeze up below 25 F in
>>>>>
>>>>> So do texas fossil fuel power plants, apparantly.
>>>>>
>>>>>     "Natural gas power generating facilities had equipment freeze up
>>>>> and faced shortages of fuel"
>>>>>
>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Texas_power_crisis
>>>>>
>>>> Apparently the important Texans don't believe it ever gets below
>>>> freezing in Texas.
>>>
>>> I think the short summary is that everybody wants it fixed but nobody
>>> wants
>>> to pay for it. Texas politicicians are as stupid, but not so stupid as to
>>> believe that legislating things makes the cost go away. It will have
>>> to get
>>> much more frequent before it gets addressed, at which point everyone
>>> will have
>>> a meltdown because the cost of electricity will rise dramatically. EVs
>>> and heat
>>> pumps are only going to make the problem worse...Texas is used to having
>>> electricity consumption drop by half or more in the winter.
>>>
>>>      Robert
>>
>> The problem with winter time electricity consumption in Texas is that
>> the weather is either moderate or cold or bitterly cold.  The forecasts
>> are worthless a week out so ERCOT must be prepared.  It costs money for
>> power plants to be manned around the clock so no one is at the power
>> plant if it is offline.  Offline = zero income.
>>
>> Texas is now changing the rules so that if the power plant is available
>> during emergencies, that power plant will be paid extra money for being
>> online.  This is a departure from Texas's only paying for electricity
>> output.
>>
>The phrase that comes to mind is "Paying for the ability to _have_
>electricity output." If you aren't willing to pay to keep the
>facilities that make electricity in working order, you aren't going to
>have electricity. Seems pretty self-evident to me.

Just out of curiousity, does anyone know if any /other/ State finds it
necessary to do this? Or is these purely a Texas Republican "thang"?
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

<tuvfgb$1fr51$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=86472&group=rec.arts.sf.written#86472

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader01.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: morr...@epsilon3.comcon (Jay E. Morris)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2023 11:18:17 -0500
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Jay E. Morris - Thu, 16 Mar 2023 16:18 UTC

On 3/15/2023 9:45 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
> On 3/15/2023 3:36 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> On 3/13/2023 3:20 PM, rkshullat@rosettacondot.com wrote:
>>> Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>>>> On 3/13/2023 8:16 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>> On 3/11/2023 6:50 PM, William Hyde wrote:
>>>>>>> On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 3:02:43 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/11/2023 1:19 PM, William Hyde wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 5:28:07 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/10/2023 11:29 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> In article <pdom0ih64j66amff3...@4ax.com>,
>>>>>>>>>>> Paul S Person <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, I suppose it's /possible/ that people don't wear
>>>>>>>>>>>> clothing or
>>>>>>>>>>>> have utilities in Texas.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know about the first but the news suggests utilities are
>>>>>>>>>>> at best a sometimes thing in Texas.
>>>>>>>>>> Just for 96 hours in Feb 2021 as the electricity was rationed
>>>>>>>>>> to those
>>>>>>>>>> who needed it the most during the 47% shortfall in generation
>>>>>>>>>> (45,000
>>>>>>>>>> MW) versus demand (85,000 MW). And the biennial hurricanes.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> When I first moved to Texas I was shocked at the frequency of
>>>>>>>>> power outages,
>>>>>>>>> even accounting for the occasional hurricane remnant hitting
>>>>>>>>> College Station.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> However, we have since caught up with you.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> William Hyde
>>>>>>>> We, as in Canada ?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ontario, anyway.  The problem is familiar, aging infrastructure,
>>>>>>> no political benefit in being
>>>>>>> the one to fix it.  Because look what we did!  Tax Cuts! Windmills!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To be fair, 2023 has been good so far, at least in my area.  But
>>>>>>> an earlier round of
>>>>>>> tax cuts led to thousands of people being poisoned, seven deaths
>>>>>>> and quite a few
>>>>>>> people with permanent disabilities.   But that was water, not hydro.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If so, sorry. Life is difficult and constant unlimited electricity
>>>>>>>> makes it easier.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have lights and books.  The house doesn't get below freezing,
>>>>>>> or not much.  It could be
>>>>>>> far worse.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> William Hyde
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Windmills suck in Texas.  The blasted things freeze up below 25 F in
>>>>>
>>>>> So do texas fossil fuel power plants, apparantly.
>>>>>
>>>>>     "Natural gas power generating facilities had equipment freeze
>>>>> up and faced shortages of fuel"
>>>>>
>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Texas_power_crisis
>>>>>
>>>> Apparently the important Texans don't believe it ever gets below
>>>> freezing in Texas.
>>>
>>> I think the short summary is that everybody wants it fixed but nobody
>>> wants
>>> to pay for it. Texas politicicians are as stupid, but not so stupid
>>> as to
>>> believe that legislating things makes the cost go away. It will have
>>> to get
>>> much more frequent before it gets addressed, at which point everyone
>>> will have
>>> a meltdown because the cost of electricity will rise dramatically.
>>> EVs and heat
>>> pumps are only going to make the problem worse...Texas is used to having
>>> electricity consumption drop by half or more in the winter.
>>>
>>>      Robert
>>
>> The problem with winter time electricity consumption in Texas is that
>> the weather is either moderate or cold or bitterly cold.  The
>> forecasts are worthless a week out so ERCOT must be prepared.  It
>> costs money for power plants to be manned around the clock so no one
>> is at the power plant if it is offline.  Offline = zero income.
>>
>> Texas is now changing the rules so that if the power plant is
>> available during emergencies, that power plant will be paid extra
>> money for being online.  This is a departure from Texas's only paying
>> for electricity output.
>>
> The phrase that comes to mind is "Paying for the ability to _have_
> electricity output."  If you aren't willing to pay to keep the
> facilities that make electricity in working order, you aren't going to
> have electricity.  Seems pretty self-evident to me.
>

He didn't say they weren't in working order, he said they were off line,
temporarily shutdown. Now companies will be paid to keep them on line,
available for an emergency.

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

<tuvfgk$1ft6n$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=86473&group=rec.arts.sf.written#86473

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader01.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: dtra...@sonic.net (Dimensional Traveler)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2023 09:18:29 -0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Dimensional Traveler - Thu, 16 Mar 2023 16:18 UTC

On 3/16/2023 8:44 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Mar 2023 19:45:13 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
> <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>
>> On 3/15/2023 3:36 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>> On 3/13/2023 3:20 PM, rkshullat@rosettacondot.com wrote:
>>>> Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>>>>> On 3/13/2023 8:16 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>> On 3/11/2023 6:50 PM, William Hyde wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 3:02:43?PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 3/11/2023 1:19 PM, William Hyde wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 5:28:07?PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/10/2023 11:29 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> In article <pdom0ih64j66amff3...@4ax.com>,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Paul S Person <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, I suppose it's /possible/ that people don't wear
>>>>>>>>>>>>> clothing or
>>>>>>>>>>>>> have utilities in Texas.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know about the first but the news suggests utilities are
>>>>>>>>>>>> at best a sometimes thing in Texas.
>>>>>>>>>>> Just for 96 hours in Feb 2021 as the electricity was rationed
>>>>>>>>>>> to those
>>>>>>>>>>> who needed it the most during the 47% shortfall in generation
>>>>>>>>>>> (45,000
>>>>>>>>>>> MW) versus demand (85,000 MW). And the biennial hurricanes.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> When I first moved to Texas I was shocked at the frequency of
>>>>>>>>>> power outages,
>>>>>>>>>> even accounting for the occasional hurricane remnant hitting
>>>>>>>>>> College Station.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> However, we have since caught up with you.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> William Hyde
>>>>>>>>> We, as in Canada ?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ontario, anyway.  The problem is familiar, aging infrastructure,
>>>>>>>> no political benefit in being
>>>>>>>> the one to fix it.  Because look what we did!  Tax Cuts! Windmills!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To be fair, 2023 has been good so far, at least in my area.  But
>>>>>>>> an earlier round of
>>>>>>>> tax cuts led to thousands of people being poisoned, seven deaths
>>>>>>>> and quite a few
>>>>>>>> people with permanent disabilities.   But that was water, not hydro.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If so, sorry. Life is difficult and constant unlimited electricity
>>>>>>>>> makes it easier.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have lights and books.  The house doesn't get below freezing, or
>>>>>>>> not much.  It could be
>>>>>>>> far worse.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> William Hyde
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Windmills suck in Texas.  The blasted things freeze up below 25 F in
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So do texas fossil fuel power plants, apparantly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     "Natural gas power generating facilities had equipment freeze up
>>>>>> and faced shortages of fuel"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Texas_power_crisis
>>>>>>
>>>>> Apparently the important Texans don't believe it ever gets below
>>>>> freezing in Texas.
>>>>
>>>> I think the short summary is that everybody wants it fixed but nobody
>>>> wants
>>>> to pay for it. Texas politicicians are as stupid, but not so stupid as to
>>>> believe that legislating things makes the cost go away. It will have
>>>> to get
>>>> much more frequent before it gets addressed, at which point everyone
>>>> will have
>>>> a meltdown because the cost of electricity will rise dramatically. EVs
>>>> and heat
>>>> pumps are only going to make the problem worse...Texas is used to having
>>>> electricity consumption drop by half or more in the winter.
>>>>
>>>>      Robert
>>>
>>> The problem with winter time electricity consumption in Texas is that
>>> the weather is either moderate or cold or bitterly cold.  The forecasts
>>> are worthless a week out so ERCOT must be prepared.  It costs money for
>>> power plants to be manned around the clock so no one is at the power
>>> plant if it is offline.  Offline = zero income.
>>>
>>> Texas is now changing the rules so that if the power plant is available
>>> during emergencies, that power plant will be paid extra money for being
>>> online.  This is a departure from Texas's only paying for electricity
>>> output.
>>>
>> The phrase that comes to mind is "Paying for the ability to _have_
>> electricity output." If you aren't willing to pay to keep the
>> facilities that make electricity in working order, you aren't going to
>> have electricity. Seems pretty self-evident to me.
>
> Just out of curiousity, does anyone know if any /other/ State finds it
> necessary to do this? Or is these purely a Texas Republican "thang"?

I don't _know_ but I suspect it is a "Texas thang". Mostly because
Texas is its own electrical grid. There are three electric grids
covering the US and users in a grid can, in theory at least, get power
from anywhere else in that grid. There is one for the western US, one
for the eastern US, and Texas. So Texas has chosen to isolate itself
and can't draw on outside sources in an emergency.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

<8656f77b-36fb-47db-aa9b-68a66829d466n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
From: petert...@gmail.com (pete...@gmail.com)
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 by: pete...@gmail.com - Thu, 16 Mar 2023 16:28 UTC

On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 11:44:05 AM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Mar 2023 19:45:13 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
> <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
>
> >On 3/15/2023 3:36 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> >> On 3/13/2023 3:20 PM, rksh...@rosettacondot.com wrote:
> >>> Dimensional Traveler <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
> >>>> On 3/13/2023 8:16 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> >>>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> writes:
> >>>>>> On 3/11/2023 6:50 PM, William Hyde wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 3:02:43?PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On 3/11/2023 1:19 PM, William Hyde wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 5:28:07?PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> On 3/10/2023 11:29 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> In article <pdom0ih64j66amff3...@4ax.com>,
> >>>>>>>>>>> Paul S Person <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Well, I suppose it's /possible/ that people don't wear
> >>>>>>>>>>>> clothing or
> >>>>>>>>>>>> have utilities in Texas.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I don't know about the first but the news suggests utilities are
> >>>>>>>>>>> at best a sometimes thing in Texas.
> >>>>>>>>>> Just for 96 hours in Feb 2021 as the electricity was rationed
> >>>>>>>>>> to those
> >>>>>>>>>> who needed it the most during the 47% shortfall in generation
> >>>>>>>>>> (45,000
> >>>>>>>>>> MW) versus demand (85,000 MW). And the biennial hurricanes.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> When I first moved to Texas I was shocked at the frequency of
> >>>>>>>>> power outages,
> >>>>>>>>> even accounting for the occasional hurricane remnant hitting
> >>>>>>>>> College Station.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> However, we have since caught up with you.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> William Hyde
> >>>>>>>> We, as in Canada ?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Ontario, anyway. The problem is familiar, aging infrastructure,
> >>>>>>> no political benefit in being
> >>>>>>> the one to fix it. Because look what we did! Tax Cuts! Windmills!
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> To be fair, 2023 has been good so far, at least in my area. But
> >>>>>>> an earlier round of
> >>>>>>> tax cuts led to thousands of people being poisoned, seven deaths
> >>>>>>> and quite a few
> >>>>>>> people with permanent disabilities. But that was water, not hydro.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> If so, sorry. Life is difficult and constant unlimited electricity
> >>>>>>>> makes it easier.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I have lights and books. The house doesn't get below freezing, or
> >>>>>>> not much. It could be
> >>>>>>> far worse.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> William Hyde
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Windmills suck in Texas. The blasted things freeze up below 25 F in
> >>>>>
> >>>>> So do texas fossil fuel power plants, apparantly.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "Natural gas power generating facilities had equipment freeze up
> >>>>> and faced shortages of fuel"
> >>>>>
> >>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Texas_power_crisis
> >>>>>
> >>>> Apparently the important Texans don't believe it ever gets below
> >>>> freezing in Texas.
> >>>
> >>> I think the short summary is that everybody wants it fixed but nobody
> >>> wants
> >>> to pay for it. Texas politicicians are as stupid, but not so stupid as to
> >>> believe that legislating things makes the cost go away. It will have
> >>> to get
> >>> much more frequent before it gets addressed, at which point everyone
> >>> will have
> >>> a meltdown because the cost of electricity will rise dramatically. EVs
> >>> and heat
> >>> pumps are only going to make the problem worse...Texas is used to having
> >>> electricity consumption drop by half or more in the winter.
> >>>
> >>> Robert
> >>
> >> The problem with winter time electricity consumption in Texas is that
> >> the weather is either moderate or cold or bitterly cold. The forecasts
> >> are worthless a week out so ERCOT must be prepared. It costs money for
> >> power plants to be manned around the clock so no one is at the power
> >> plant if it is offline. Offline = zero income.
> >>
> >> Texas is now changing the rules so that if the power plant is available
> >> during emergencies, that power plant will be paid extra money for being
> >> online. This is a departure from Texas's only paying for electricity
> >> output.
> >>
> >The phrase that comes to mind is "Paying for the ability to _have_
> >electricity output." If you aren't willing to pay to keep the
> >facilities that make electricity in working order, you aren't going to
> >have electricity. Seems pretty self-evident to me.
> Just out of curiousity, does anyone know if any /other/ State finds it
> necessary to do this? Or is these purely a Texas Republican "thang"?

Have peaking power plants sit (expensively) on standby? Yes, it's a
normal part of running a grid.

https://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peaking_power_plant

Pt

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

<rrMI1J.1F3t@kithrup.com>

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From: djhe...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
Message-ID: <rrMI1J.1F3t@kithrup.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2023 17:03:19 GMT
References: <pdom0ih64j66amff3mbnojki8pog8sg5vt@4ax.com> <tutvrm$184vt$1@dont-email.me> <k8e61ip4ekhd6p576rroe427i8l4lpm04s@4ax.com> <tuvfgk$1ft6n$1@dont-email.me>
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 by: Dorothy J Heydt - Thu, 16 Mar 2023 17:03 UTC

In article <tuvfgk$1ft6n$1@dont-email.me>,
Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>On 3/16/2023 8:44 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>> Just out of curiousity, does anyone know if any /other/ State finds it
>> necessary to do this? Or is these purely a Texas Republican "thang"?
>
>I don't _know_ but I suspect it is a "Texas thang". Mostly because
>Texas is its own electrical grid. There are three electric grids
>covering the US and users in a grid can, in theory at least, get power
>from anywhere else in that grid. There is one for the western US, one
>for the eastern US, and Texas. So Texas has chosen to isolate itself
>and can't draw on outside sources in an emergency.

(Hal Heydt)
Texas has refused to become part of either of the main US
interconnect power systems in order to avoid being subject to
some Federal regulations. So...yeah. A Texas thang.

This leads to the problem that Texas can't get power from
elsewhere if their own generation is insufficient, nor can they
sell power to anyone else if they have a surplus. Thus, most of
their power issues are self-inflicted.

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

<tuvs9d$1i7n6$1@dont-email.me>

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From: dtra...@sonic.net (Dimensional Traveler)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2023 12:56:31 -0700
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 by: Dimensional Traveler - Thu, 16 Mar 2023 19:56 UTC

On 3/16/2023 10:03 AM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <tuvfgk$1ft6n$1@dont-email.me>,
> Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>> On 3/16/2023 8:44 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>>> Just out of curiousity, does anyone know if any /other/ State finds it
>>> necessary to do this? Or is these purely a Texas Republican "thang"?
>>
>> I don't _know_ but I suspect it is a "Texas thang". Mostly because
>> Texas is its own electrical grid. There are three electric grids
>> covering the US and users in a grid can, in theory at least, get power
>>from anywhere else in that grid. There is one for the western US, one
>> for the eastern US, and Texas. So Texas has chosen to isolate itself
>> and can't draw on outside sources in an emergency.
>
> (Hal Heydt)
> Texas has refused to become part of either of the main US
> interconnect power systems in order to avoid being subject to
> some Federal regulations. So...yeah. A Texas thang.
>
> This leads to the problem that Texas can't get power from
> elsewhere if their own generation is insufficient, nor can they
> sell power to anyone else if they have a surplus. Thus, most of
> their power issues are self-inflicted.

Right, I had forgotten about the Federal regulation excuse. Thank you
for the reminder.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

<tuvvbv$1ippk$1@dont-email.me>

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From: lynnmcgu...@gmail.com (Lynn McGuire)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2023 15:49:01 -0500
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 by: Lynn McGuire - Thu, 16 Mar 2023 20:49 UTC

On 3/16/2023 12:03 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <tuvfgk$1ft6n$1@dont-email.me>,
> Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>> On 3/16/2023 8:44 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>>> Just out of curiousity, does anyone know if any /other/ State finds it
>>> necessary to do this? Or is these purely a Texas Republican "thang"?
>>
>> I don't _know_ but I suspect it is a "Texas thang". Mostly because
>> Texas is its own electrical grid. There are three electric grids
>> covering the US and users in a grid can, in theory at least, get power
>>from anywhere else in that grid. There is one for the western US, one
>> for the eastern US, and Texas. So Texas has chosen to isolate itself
>> and can't draw on outside sources in an emergency.
>
> (Hal Heydt)
> Texas has refused to become part of either of the main US
> interconnect power systems in order to avoid being subject to
> some Federal regulations. So...yeah. A Texas thang.
>
> This leads to the problem that Texas can't get power from
> elsewhere if their own generation is insufficient, nor can they
> sell power to anyone else if they have a surplus. Thus, most of
> their power issues are self-inflicted.

See my posting above. These statements are incorrect as Texas has DC
interties with the east and west grids.

Lynn

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

<tuvvm7$1ippk$2@dont-email.me>

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From: lynnmcgu...@gmail.com (Lynn McGuire)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2023 15:54:30 -0500
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 by: Lynn McGuire - Thu, 16 Mar 2023 20:54 UTC

On 3/16/2023 11:28 AM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 11:44:05 AM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Wed, 15 Mar 2023 19:45:13 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
>> <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/15/2023 3:36 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>> On 3/13/2023 3:20 PM, rksh...@rosettacondot.com wrote:
>>>>> Dimensional Traveler <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/13/2023 8:16 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>>>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>>> On 3/11/2023 6:50 PM, William Hyde wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 3:02:43?PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/11/2023 1:19 PM, William Hyde wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 5:28:07?PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/10/2023 11:29 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In article <pdom0ih64j66amff3...@4ax.com>,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Paul S Person <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, I suppose it's /possible/ that people don't wear
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> clothing or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have utilities in Texas.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know about the first but the news suggests utilities are
>>>>>>>>>>>>> at best a sometimes thing in Texas.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Just for 96 hours in Feb 2021 as the electricity was rationed
>>>>>>>>>>>> to those
>>>>>>>>>>>> who needed it the most during the 47% shortfall in generation
>>>>>>>>>>>> (45,000
>>>>>>>>>>>> MW) versus demand (85,000 MW). And the biennial hurricanes.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> When I first moved to Texas I was shocked at the frequency of
>>>>>>>>>>> power outages,
>>>>>>>>>>> even accounting for the occasional hurricane remnant hitting
>>>>>>>>>>> College Station.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> However, we have since caught up with you.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> William Hyde
>>>>>>>>>> We, as in Canada ?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ontario, anyway. The problem is familiar, aging infrastructure,
>>>>>>>>> no political benefit in being
>>>>>>>>> the one to fix it. Because look what we did! Tax Cuts! Windmills!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> To be fair, 2023 has been good so far, at least in my area. But
>>>>>>>>> an earlier round of
>>>>>>>>> tax cuts led to thousands of people being poisoned, seven deaths
>>>>>>>>> and quite a few
>>>>>>>>> people with permanent disabilities. But that was water, not hydro.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If so, sorry. Life is difficult and constant unlimited electricity
>>>>>>>>>> makes it easier.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I have lights and books. The house doesn't get below freezing, or
>>>>>>>>> not much. It could be
>>>>>>>>> far worse.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> William Hyde
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Windmills suck in Texas. The blasted things freeze up below 25 F in
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So do texas fossil fuel power plants, apparantly.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Natural gas power generating facilities had equipment freeze up
>>>>>>> and faced shortages of fuel"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Texas_power_crisis
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Apparently the important Texans don't believe it ever gets below
>>>>>> freezing in Texas.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think the short summary is that everybody wants it fixed but nobody
>>>>> wants
>>>>> to pay for it. Texas politicicians are as stupid, but not so stupid as to
>>>>> believe that legislating things makes the cost go away. It will have
>>>>> to get
>>>>> much more frequent before it gets addressed, at which point everyone
>>>>> will have
>>>>> a meltdown because the cost of electricity will rise dramatically. EVs
>>>>> and heat
>>>>> pumps are only going to make the problem worse...Texas is used to having
>>>>> electricity consumption drop by half or more in the winter.
>>>>>
>>>>> Robert
>>>>
>>>> The problem with winter time electricity consumption in Texas is that
>>>> the weather is either moderate or cold or bitterly cold. The forecasts
>>>> are worthless a week out so ERCOT must be prepared. It costs money for
>>>> power plants to be manned around the clock so no one is at the power
>>>> plant if it is offline. Offline = zero income.
>>>>
>>>> Texas is now changing the rules so that if the power plant is available
>>>> during emergencies, that power plant will be paid extra money for being
>>>> online. This is a departure from Texas's only paying for electricity
>>>> output.
>>>>
>>> The phrase that comes to mind is "Paying for the ability to _have_
>>> electricity output." If you aren't willing to pay to keep the
>>> facilities that make electricity in working order, you aren't going to
>>> have electricity. Seems pretty self-evident to me.
>> Just out of curiousity, does anyone know if any /other/ State finds it
>> necessary to do this? Or is these purely a Texas Republican "thang"?
>
> Have peaking power plants sit (expensively) on standby? Yes, it's a
> normal part of running a grid.
>
> https://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peaking_power_plant
>
> Pt

Yes, When I worked for TXU we had four steam boiler plants (350 MW, 350
MW, 425 MW, 425 MW) that could be started in 30 minutes if they were hot
(steam turbine > 300 F) or 4 hours if cold. We also had fifteen GE
Frame 7 gas turbines that required 22 minutes for a start, cold or hot,
for 65 MW each in the summer (100+ F ambient) or 85 MW (30+- F ambient)
each in the winter.

Lynn

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

<tv06ep$1jv3j$1@dont-email.me>

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From: lynnmcgu...@gmail.com (Lynn McGuire)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2023 17:50:00 -0500
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Lynn McGuire - Thu, 16 Mar 2023 22:50 UTC

On 3/16/2023 11:18 AM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
> On 3/16/2023 8:44 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Wed, 15 Mar 2023 19:45:13 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
>> <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/15/2023 3:36 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>> On 3/13/2023 3:20 PM, rkshullat@rosettacondot.com wrote:
>>>>> Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/13/2023 8:16 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>>>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>>> On 3/11/2023 6:50 PM, William Hyde wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 3:02:43?PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/11/2023 1:19 PM, William Hyde wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 5:28:07?PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/10/2023 11:29 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In article <pdom0ih64j66amff3...@4ax.com>,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Paul S Person <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, I suppose it's /possible/ that people don't wear
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> clothing or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have utilities in Texas.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know about the first but the news suggests
>>>>>>>>>>>>> utilities are
>>>>>>>>>>>>> at best a sometimes thing in Texas.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Just for 96 hours in Feb 2021 as the electricity was rationed
>>>>>>>>>>>> to those
>>>>>>>>>>>> who needed it the most during the 47% shortfall in generation
>>>>>>>>>>>> (45,000
>>>>>>>>>>>> MW) versus demand (85,000 MW). And the biennial hurricanes.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> When I first moved to Texas I was shocked at the frequency of
>>>>>>>>>>> power outages,
>>>>>>>>>>> even accounting for the occasional hurricane remnant hitting
>>>>>>>>>>> College Station.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> However, we have since caught up with you.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> William Hyde
>>>>>>>>>> We, as in Canada ?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ontario, anyway.  The problem is familiar, aging infrastructure,
>>>>>>>>> no political benefit in being
>>>>>>>>> the one to fix it.  Because look what we did!  Tax Cuts!
>>>>>>>>> Windmills!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> To be fair, 2023 has been good so far, at least in my area.  But
>>>>>>>>> an earlier round of
>>>>>>>>> tax cuts led to thousands of people being poisoned, seven deaths
>>>>>>>>> and quite a few
>>>>>>>>> people with permanent disabilities.   But that was water, not
>>>>>>>>> hydro.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If so, sorry. Life is difficult and constant unlimited
>>>>>>>>>> electricity
>>>>>>>>>> makes it easier.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I have lights and books.  The house doesn't get below freezing, or
>>>>>>>>> not much.  It could be
>>>>>>>>> far worse.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> William Hyde
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Windmills suck in Texas.  The blasted things freeze up below 25
>>>>>>>> F in
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So do texas fossil fuel power plants, apparantly.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      "Natural gas power generating facilities had equipment
>>>>>>> freeze up
>>>>>>> and faced shortages of fuel"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Texas_power_crisis
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Apparently the important Texans don't believe it ever gets below
>>>>>> freezing in Texas.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think the short summary is that everybody wants it fixed but nobody
>>>>> wants
>>>>> to pay for it. Texas politicicians are as stupid, but not so stupid
>>>>> as to
>>>>> believe that legislating things makes the cost go away. It will have
>>>>> to get
>>>>> much more frequent before it gets addressed, at which point everyone
>>>>> will have
>>>>> a meltdown because the cost of electricity will rise dramatically. EVs
>>>>> and heat
>>>>> pumps are only going to make the problem worse...Texas is used to
>>>>> having
>>>>> electricity consumption drop by half or more in the winter.
>>>>>
>>>>>       Robert
>>>>
>>>> The problem with winter time electricity consumption in Texas is that
>>>> the weather is either moderate or cold or bitterly cold.  The forecasts
>>>> are worthless a week out so ERCOT must be prepared.  It costs money for
>>>> power plants to be manned around the clock so no one is at the power
>>>> plant if it is offline.  Offline = zero income.
>>>>
>>>> Texas is now changing the rules so that if the power plant is available
>>>> during emergencies, that power plant will be paid extra money for being
>>>> online.  This is a departure from Texas's only paying for electricity
>>>> output.
>>>>
>>> The phrase that comes to mind is "Paying for the ability to _have_
>>> electricity output."  If you aren't willing to pay to keep the
>>> facilities that make electricity in working order, you aren't going to
>>> have electricity.  Seems pretty self-evident to me.
>>
>> Just out of curiousity, does anyone know if any /other/ State finds it
>> necessary to do this? Or is these purely a Texas Republican "thang"?
>
> I don't _know_ but I suspect it is a "Texas thang".  Mostly because
> Texas is its own electrical grid.  There are three electric grids
> covering the US and users in a grid can, in theory at least, get power
> from anywhere else in that grid.  There is one for the western US, one
> for the eastern US, and Texas.  So Texas has chosen to isolate itself
> and can't draw on outside sources in an emergency.

There are five grids in the USA. You forgot Hawaii and Alaska. I do
not know if the southern grid in Alaska extends up into the Fairbanks
area but I doubt it.

And then there are other grids in the protectorates. Puerto Rico has a
single grid. Japan has a 50 hz grid and a 60 hz grid. The others are
mostly single gridded.

And actually, Texas is not isolated. There are several DC interties
between ERCOT and the east and west grids. DC interties are not
regulated by FERC. But during the Feb 2021 rotating blackouts, there
was no available power on the east and west grids.
https://www.ercot.com/gridmktinfo/dashboards/dctieflows" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://www.ercot.com/gridmktinfo/dashboards/dctieflows
from
https://www.ercot.com/gridmktinfo/dashboards

Lynn

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

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Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
From: petert...@gmail.com (pete...@gmail.com)
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 by: pete...@gmail.com - Fri, 17 Mar 2023 03:27 UTC

On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 6:50:07 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 3/16/2023 11:18 AM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
> > On 3/16/2023 8:44 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
> >> On Wed, 15 Mar 2023 19:45:13 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
> >> <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 3/15/2023 3:36 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> >>>> On 3/13/2023 3:20 PM, rksh...@rosettacondot.com wrote:
> >>>>> Dimensional Traveler <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
> >>>>>> On 3/13/2023 8:16 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> >>>>>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> writes:
> >>>>>>>> On 3/11/2023 6:50 PM, William Hyde wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 3:02:43?PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire
> >>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> On 3/11/2023 1:19 PM, William Hyde wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 5:28:07?PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire
> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/10/2023 11:29 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> In article <pdom0ih64j66amff3...@4ax.com>,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Paul S Person <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, I suppose it's /possible/ that people don't wear
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> clothing or
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> have utilities in Texas.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know about the first but the news suggests
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> utilities are
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> at best a sometimes thing in Texas.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Just for 96 hours in Feb 2021 as the electricity was rationed
> >>>>>>>>>>>> to those
> >>>>>>>>>>>> who needed it the most during the 47% shortfall in generation
> >>>>>>>>>>>> (45,000
> >>>>>>>>>>>> MW) versus demand (85,000 MW). And the biennial hurricanes.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> When I first moved to Texas I was shocked at the frequency of
> >>>>>>>>>>> power outages,
> >>>>>>>>>>> even accounting for the occasional hurricane remnant hitting
> >>>>>>>>>>> College Station.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> However, we have since caught up with you.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> William Hyde
> >>>>>>>>>> We, as in Canada ?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Ontario, anyway. The problem is familiar, aging infrastructure,
> >>>>>>>>> no political benefit in being
> >>>>>>>>> the one to fix it. Because look what we did! Tax Cuts!
> >>>>>>>>> Windmills!
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> To be fair, 2023 has been good so far, at least in my area. But
> >>>>>>>>> an earlier round of
> >>>>>>>>> tax cuts led to thousands of people being poisoned, seven deaths
> >>>>>>>>> and quite a few
> >>>>>>>>> people with permanent disabilities. But that was water, not
> >>>>>>>>> hydro.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> If so, sorry. Life is difficult and constant unlimited
> >>>>>>>>>> electricity
> >>>>>>>>>> makes it easier.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I have lights and books. The house doesn't get below freezing, or
> >>>>>>>>> not much. It could be
> >>>>>>>>> far worse.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> William Hyde
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Windmills suck in Texas. The blasted things freeze up below 25
> >>>>>>>> F in
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> So do texas fossil fuel power plants, apparantly.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> "Natural gas power generating facilities had equipment
> >>>>>>> freeze up
> >>>>>>> and faced shortages of fuel"
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Texas_power_crisis
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> Apparently the important Texans don't believe it ever gets below
> >>>>>> freezing in Texas.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I think the short summary is that everybody wants it fixed but nobody
> >>>>> wants
> >>>>> to pay for it. Texas politicicians are as stupid, but not so stupid
> >>>>> as to
> >>>>> believe that legislating things makes the cost go away. It will have
> >>>>> to get
> >>>>> much more frequent before it gets addressed, at which point everyone
> >>>>> will have
> >>>>> a meltdown because the cost of electricity will rise dramatically. EVs
> >>>>> and heat
> >>>>> pumps are only going to make the problem worse...Texas is used to
> >>>>> having
> >>>>> electricity consumption drop by half or more in the winter.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Robert
> >>>>
> >>>> The problem with winter time electricity consumption in Texas is that
> >>>> the weather is either moderate or cold or bitterly cold. The forecasts
> >>>> are worthless a week out so ERCOT must be prepared. It costs money for
> >>>> power plants to be manned around the clock so no one is at the power
> >>>> plant if it is offline. Offline = zero income.
> >>>>
> >>>> Texas is now changing the rules so that if the power plant is available
> >>>> during emergencies, that power plant will be paid extra money for being
> >>>> online. This is a departure from Texas's only paying for electricity
> >>>> output.
> >>>>
> >>> The phrase that comes to mind is "Paying for the ability to _have_
> >>> electricity output." If you aren't willing to pay to keep the
> >>> facilities that make electricity in working order, you aren't going to
> >>> have electricity. Seems pretty self-evident to me.
> >>
> >> Just out of curiousity, does anyone know if any /other/ State finds it
> >> necessary to do this? Or is these purely a Texas Republican "thang"?
> >
> > I don't _know_ but I suspect it is a "Texas thang". Mostly because
> > Texas is its own electrical grid. There are three electric grids
> > covering the US and users in a grid can, in theory at least, get power
> > from anywhere else in that grid. There is one for the western US, one
> > for the eastern US, and Texas. So Texas has chosen to isolate itself
> > and can't draw on outside sources in an emergency.
> There are five grids in the USA. You forgot Hawaii and Alaska. I do
> not know if the southern grid in Alaska extends up into the Fairbanks
> area but I doubt it.

Hawaii has a separate grid for each island. The water depths between
them, and the distances, make under sea cables impractical.

https://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_Hawaii#Electricity

In Alaska, the Willow–Healy Intertie connects the Anchorage area grid
with the Fairbanks area grid. There's a separate grid for the
Panhandle area. The rest of the state is not networked.

Pt

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

<tv0pft$1pkce$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=86493&group=rec.arts.sf.written#86493

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader01.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: lynnmcgu...@gmail.com (Lynn McGuire)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2023 23:14:53 -0500
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 by: Lynn McGuire - Fri, 17 Mar 2023 04:14 UTC

On 3/16/2023 10:27 PM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 6:50:07 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> On 3/16/2023 11:18 AM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>> On 3/16/2023 8:44 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 15 Mar 2023 19:45:13 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
>>>> <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 3/15/2023 3:36 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/13/2023 3:20 PM, rksh...@rosettacondot.com wrote:
>>>>>>> Dimensional Traveler <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/13/2023 8:16 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/11/2023 6:50 PM, William Hyde wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 3:02:43?PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/11/2023 1:19 PM, William Hyde wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 5:28:07?PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/10/2023 11:29 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In article <pdom0ih64j66amff3...@4ax.com>,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Paul S Person <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, I suppose it's /possible/ that people don't wear
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> clothing or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have utilities in Texas.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know about the first but the news suggests
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> utilities are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at best a sometimes thing in Texas.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just for 96 hours in Feb 2021 as the electricity was rationed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to those
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who needed it the most during the 47% shortfall in generation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (45,000
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> MW) versus demand (85,000 MW). And the biennial hurricanes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> When I first moved to Texas I was shocked at the frequency of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> power outages,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> even accounting for the occasional hurricane remnant hitting
>>>>>>>>>>>>> College Station.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> However, we have since caught up with you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> William Hyde
>>>>>>>>>>>> We, as in Canada ?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Ontario, anyway. The problem is familiar, aging infrastructure,
>>>>>>>>>>> no political benefit in being
>>>>>>>>>>> the one to fix it. Because look what we did! Tax Cuts!
>>>>>>>>>>> Windmills!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> To be fair, 2023 has been good so far, at least in my area. But
>>>>>>>>>>> an earlier round of
>>>>>>>>>>> tax cuts led to thousands of people being poisoned, seven deaths
>>>>>>>>>>> and quite a few
>>>>>>>>>>> people with permanent disabilities. But that was water, not
>>>>>>>>>>> hydro.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> If so, sorry. Life is difficult and constant unlimited
>>>>>>>>>>>> electricity
>>>>>>>>>>>> makes it easier.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I have lights and books. The house doesn't get below freezing, or
>>>>>>>>>>> not much. It could be
>>>>>>>>>>> far worse.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> William Hyde
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Windmills suck in Texas. The blasted things freeze up below 25
>>>>>>>>>> F in
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So do texas fossil fuel power plants, apparantly.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Natural gas power generating facilities had equipment
>>>>>>>>> freeze up
>>>>>>>>> and faced shortages of fuel"
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Texas_power_crisis
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Apparently the important Texans don't believe it ever gets below
>>>>>>>> freezing in Texas.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think the short summary is that everybody wants it fixed but nobody
>>>>>>> wants
>>>>>>> to pay for it. Texas politicicians are as stupid, but not so stupid
>>>>>>> as to
>>>>>>> believe that legislating things makes the cost go away. It will have
>>>>>>> to get
>>>>>>> much more frequent before it gets addressed, at which point everyone
>>>>>>> will have
>>>>>>> a meltdown because the cost of electricity will rise dramatically. EVs
>>>>>>> and heat
>>>>>>> pumps are only going to make the problem worse...Texas is used to
>>>>>>> having
>>>>>>> electricity consumption drop by half or more in the winter.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Robert
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The problem with winter time electricity consumption in Texas is that
>>>>>> the weather is either moderate or cold or bitterly cold. The forecasts
>>>>>> are worthless a week out so ERCOT must be prepared. It costs money for
>>>>>> power plants to be manned around the clock so no one is at the power
>>>>>> plant if it is offline. Offline = zero income.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Texas is now changing the rules so that if the power plant is available
>>>>>> during emergencies, that power plant will be paid extra money for being
>>>>>> online. This is a departure from Texas's only paying for electricity
>>>>>> output.
>>>>>>
>>>>> The phrase that comes to mind is "Paying for the ability to _have_
>>>>> electricity output." If you aren't willing to pay to keep the
>>>>> facilities that make electricity in working order, you aren't going to
>>>>> have electricity. Seems pretty self-evident to me.
>>>>
>>>> Just out of curiousity, does anyone know if any /other/ State finds it
>>>> necessary to do this? Or is these purely a Texas Republican "thang"?
>>>
>>> I don't _know_ but I suspect it is a "Texas thang". Mostly because
>>> Texas is its own electrical grid. There are three electric grids
>>> covering the US and users in a grid can, in theory at least, get power
>>> from anywhere else in that grid. There is one for the western US, one
>>> for the eastern US, and Texas. So Texas has chosen to isolate itself
>>> and can't draw on outside sources in an emergency.
>> There are five grids in the USA. You forgot Hawaii and Alaska. I do
>> not know if the southern grid in Alaska extends up into the Fairbanks
>> area but I doubt it.
>
> Hawaii has a separate grid for each island. The water depths between
> them, and the distances, make under sea cables impractical.
>
> https://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_Hawaii#Electricity
>
> In Alaska, the Willow–Healy Intertie connects the Anchorage area grid
> with the Fairbanks area grid. There's a separate grid for the
> Panhandle area. The rest of the state is not networked.
>
> Pt


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Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

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From: lynnmcgu...@gmail.com (Lynn McGuire)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2023 23:21:21 -0500
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Lynn McGuire - Fri, 17 Mar 2023 04:21 UTC

On 3/16/2023 10:27 PM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 6:50:07 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> On 3/16/2023 11:18 AM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>> On 3/16/2023 8:44 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 15 Mar 2023 19:45:13 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
>>>> <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 3/15/2023 3:36 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/13/2023 3:20 PM, rksh...@rosettacondot.com wrote:
>>>>>>> Dimensional Traveler <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/13/2023 8:16 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/11/2023 6:50 PM, William Hyde wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 3:02:43?PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/11/2023 1:19 PM, William Hyde wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 5:28:07?PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/10/2023 11:29 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In article <pdom0ih64j66amff3...@4ax.com>,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Paul S Person <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, I suppose it's /possible/ that people don't wear
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> clothing or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have utilities in Texas.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know about the first but the news suggests
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> utilities are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at best a sometimes thing in Texas.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just for 96 hours in Feb 2021 as the electricity was rationed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to those
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who needed it the most during the 47% shortfall in generation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (45,000
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> MW) versus demand (85,000 MW). And the biennial hurricanes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> When I first moved to Texas I was shocked at the frequency of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> power outages,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> even accounting for the occasional hurricane remnant hitting
>>>>>>>>>>>>> College Station.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> However, we have since caught up with you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> William Hyde
>>>>>>>>>>>> We, as in Canada ?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Ontario, anyway. The problem is familiar, aging infrastructure,
>>>>>>>>>>> no political benefit in being
>>>>>>>>>>> the one to fix it. Because look what we did! Tax Cuts!
>>>>>>>>>>> Windmills!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> To be fair, 2023 has been good so far, at least in my area. But
>>>>>>>>>>> an earlier round of
>>>>>>>>>>> tax cuts led to thousands of people being poisoned, seven deaths
>>>>>>>>>>> and quite a few
>>>>>>>>>>> people with permanent disabilities. But that was water, not
>>>>>>>>>>> hydro.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> If so, sorry. Life is difficult and constant unlimited
>>>>>>>>>>>> electricity
>>>>>>>>>>>> makes it easier.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I have lights and books. The house doesn't get below freezing, or
>>>>>>>>>>> not much. It could be
>>>>>>>>>>> far worse.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> William Hyde
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Windmills suck in Texas. The blasted things freeze up below 25
>>>>>>>>>> F in
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So do texas fossil fuel power plants, apparantly.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Natural gas power generating facilities had equipment
>>>>>>>>> freeze up
>>>>>>>>> and faced shortages of fuel"
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Texas_power_crisis
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Apparently the important Texans don't believe it ever gets below
>>>>>>>> freezing in Texas.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think the short summary is that everybody wants it fixed but nobody
>>>>>>> wants
>>>>>>> to pay for it. Texas politicicians are as stupid, but not so stupid
>>>>>>> as to
>>>>>>> believe that legislating things makes the cost go away. It will have
>>>>>>> to get
>>>>>>> much more frequent before it gets addressed, at which point everyone
>>>>>>> will have
>>>>>>> a meltdown because the cost of electricity will rise dramatically. EVs
>>>>>>> and heat
>>>>>>> pumps are only going to make the problem worse...Texas is used to
>>>>>>> having
>>>>>>> electricity consumption drop by half or more in the winter.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Robert
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The problem with winter time electricity consumption in Texas is that
>>>>>> the weather is either moderate or cold or bitterly cold. The forecasts
>>>>>> are worthless a week out so ERCOT must be prepared. It costs money for
>>>>>> power plants to be manned around the clock so no one is at the power
>>>>>> plant if it is offline. Offline = zero income.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Texas is now changing the rules so that if the power plant is available
>>>>>> during emergencies, that power plant will be paid extra money for being
>>>>>> online. This is a departure from Texas's only paying for electricity
>>>>>> output.
>>>>>>
>>>>> The phrase that comes to mind is "Paying for the ability to _have_
>>>>> electricity output." If you aren't willing to pay to keep the
>>>>> facilities that make electricity in working order, you aren't going to
>>>>> have electricity. Seems pretty self-evident to me.
>>>>
>>>> Just out of curiousity, does anyone know if any /other/ State finds it
>>>> necessary to do this? Or is these purely a Texas Republican "thang"?
>>>
>>> I don't _know_ but I suspect it is a "Texas thang". Mostly because
>>> Texas is its own electrical grid. There are three electric grids
>>> covering the US and users in a grid can, in theory at least, get power
>>> from anywhere else in that grid. There is one for the western US, one
>>> for the eastern US, and Texas. So Texas has chosen to isolate itself
>>> and can't draw on outside sources in an emergency.
>> There are five grids in the USA. You forgot Hawaii and Alaska. I do
>> not know if the southern grid in Alaska extends up into the Fairbanks
>> area but I doubt it.
>
> Hawaii has a separate grid for each island. The water depths between
> them, and the distances, make under sea cables impractical.
>
> https://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_Hawaii#Electricity
>
> In Alaska, the Willow–Healy Intertie connects the Anchorage area grid
> with the Fairbanks area grid. There's a separate grid for the
> Panhandle area. The rest of the state is not networked.
>
> Pt


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Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

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Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
From: petert...@gmail.com (pete...@gmail.com)
Injection-Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2023 13:39:43 +0000
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 by: pete...@gmail.com - Fri, 17 Mar 2023 13:39 UTC

On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 12:14:59 AM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 3/16/2023 10:27 PM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 6:50:07 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> >> On 3/16/2023 11:18 AM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
> >>> On 3/16/2023 8:44 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
> >>>> On Wed, 15 Mar 2023 19:45:13 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
> >>>> <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On 3/15/2023 3:36 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> >>>>>> On 3/13/2023 3:20 PM, rksh...@rosettacondot.com wrote:
> >>>>>>> Dimensional Traveler <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On 3/13/2023 8:16 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> writes:
> >>>>>>>>>> On 3/11/2023 6:50 PM, William Hyde wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 3:02:43?PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire
> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/11/2023 1:19 PM, William Hyde wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 5:28:07?PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/10/2023 11:29 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In article <pdom0ih64j66amff3...@4ax.com>,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Paul S Person <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, I suppose it's /possible/ that people don't wear
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> clothing or
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have utilities in Texas.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know about the first but the news suggests
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> utilities are
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at best a sometimes thing in Texas.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just for 96 hours in Feb 2021 as the electricity was rationed
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to those
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> who needed it the most during the 47% shortfall in generation
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (45,000
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> MW) versus demand (85,000 MW). And the biennial hurricanes..
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> When I first moved to Texas I was shocked at the frequency of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> power outages,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> even accounting for the occasional hurricane remnant hitting
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> College Station.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> However, we have since caught up with you.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> William Hyde
> >>>>>>>>>>>> We, as in Canada ?
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Ontario, anyway. The problem is familiar, aging infrastructure,
> >>>>>>>>>>> no political benefit in being
> >>>>>>>>>>> the one to fix it. Because look what we did! Tax Cuts!
> >>>>>>>>>>> Windmills!
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> To be fair, 2023 has been good so far, at least in my area. But
> >>>>>>>>>>> an earlier round of
> >>>>>>>>>>> tax cuts led to thousands of people being poisoned, seven deaths
> >>>>>>>>>>> and quite a few
> >>>>>>>>>>> people with permanent disabilities. But that was water, not
> >>>>>>>>>>> hydro.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> If so, sorry. Life is difficult and constant unlimited
> >>>>>>>>>>>> electricity
> >>>>>>>>>>>> makes it easier.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I have lights and books. The house doesn't get below freezing, or
> >>>>>>>>>>> not much. It could be
> >>>>>>>>>>> far worse.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> William Hyde
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Windmills suck in Texas. The blasted things freeze up below 25
> >>>>>>>>>> F in
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> So do texas fossil fuel power plants, apparantly.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> "Natural gas power generating facilities had equipment
> >>>>>>>>> freeze up
> >>>>>>>>> and faced shortages of fuel"
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Texas_power_crisis
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Apparently the important Texans don't believe it ever gets below
> >>>>>>>> freezing in Texas.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I think the short summary is that everybody wants it fixed but nobody
> >>>>>>> wants
> >>>>>>> to pay for it. Texas politicicians are as stupid, but not so stupid
> >>>>>>> as to
> >>>>>>> believe that legislating things makes the cost go away. It will have
> >>>>>>> to get
> >>>>>>> much more frequent before it gets addressed, at which point everyone
> >>>>>>> will have
> >>>>>>> a meltdown because the cost of electricity will rise dramatically.. EVs
> >>>>>>> and heat
> >>>>>>> pumps are only going to make the problem worse...Texas is used to
> >>>>>>> having
> >>>>>>> electricity consumption drop by half or more in the winter.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Robert
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The problem with winter time electricity consumption in Texas is that
> >>>>>> the weather is either moderate or cold or bitterly cold. The forecasts
> >>>>>> are worthless a week out so ERCOT must be prepared. It costs money for
> >>>>>> power plants to be manned around the clock so no one is at the power
> >>>>>> plant if it is offline. Offline = zero income.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Texas is now changing the rules so that if the power plant is available
> >>>>>> during emergencies, that power plant will be paid extra money for being
> >>>>>> online. This is a departure from Texas's only paying for electricity
> >>>>>> output.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> The phrase that comes to mind is "Paying for the ability to _have_
> >>>>> electricity output." If you aren't willing to pay to keep the
> >>>>> facilities that make electricity in working order, you aren't going to
> >>>>> have electricity. Seems pretty self-evident to me.
> >>>>
> >>>> Just out of curiousity, does anyone know if any /other/ State finds it
> >>>> necessary to do this? Or is these purely a Texas Republican "thang"?
> >>>
> >>> I don't _know_ but I suspect it is a "Texas thang". Mostly because
> >>> Texas is its own electrical grid. There are three electric grids
> >>> covering the US and users in a grid can, in theory at least, get power
> >>> from anywhere else in that grid. There is one for the western US, one
> >>> for the eastern US, and Texas. So Texas has chosen to isolate itself
> >>> and can't draw on outside sources in an emergency.
> >> There are five grids in the USA. You forgot Hawaii and Alaska. I do
> >> not know if the southern grid in Alaska extends up into the Fairbanks
> >> area but I doubt it.
> >
> > Hawaii has a separate grid for each island. The water depths between
> > them, and the distances, make under sea cables impractical.
> >
> > https://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_Hawaii#Electricity
> >
> > In Alaska, the Willow–Healy Intertie connects the Anchorage area grid
> > with the Fairbanks area grid. There's a separate grid for the
> > Panhandle area. The rest of the state is not networked.
> >
> > Pt
> The undersea cables can go quite a way. They are considering putting a
> power cable from the USA mainland to Puerto Rico, 1,500 miles. "Next Big
> Idea In Electricity: Subsea Cable From The Mainland To Puerto Rico"
>
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/llewellynking/2023/01/24/next-big-idea-in-electricity-subsea-cable-from-the-mainland-to-puerto-rico/?sh=50d511e912bc
>
> "The big thinking is to provide electricity by subsea cable to
> storm-vulnerable Puerto Rico. At 1,500-miles, it would be the longest
> U.S. cable of its type, but about a third shorter than a cable now
> planned between Morocco and Britain."


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Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

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From: dtra...@sonic.net (Dimensional Traveler)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2023 09:00:01 -0700
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 by: Dimensional Traveler - Fri, 17 Mar 2023 16:00 UTC

On 3/17/2023 6:39 AM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 12:14:59 AM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> On 3/16/2023 10:27 PM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 6:50:07 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>> On 3/16/2023 11:18 AM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>>>> On 3/16/2023 8:44 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 15 Mar 2023 19:45:13 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
>>>>>> <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 3/15/2023 3:36 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/13/2023 3:20 PM, rksh...@rosettacondot.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Dimensional Traveler <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/13/2023 8:16 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/11/2023 6:50 PM, William Hyde wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 3:02:43?PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/11/2023 1:19 PM, William Hyde wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 5:28:07?PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/10/2023 11:29 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In article <pdom0ih64j66amff3...@4ax.com>,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Paul S Person <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, I suppose it's /possible/ that people don't wear
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> clothing or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have utilities in Texas.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know about the first but the news suggests
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> utilities are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at best a sometimes thing in Texas.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just for 96 hours in Feb 2021 as the electricity was rationed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to those
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who needed it the most during the 47% shortfall in generation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (45,000
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> MW) versus demand (85,000 MW). And the biennial hurricanes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When I first moved to Texas I was shocked at the frequency of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> power outages,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> even accounting for the occasional hurricane remnant hitting
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> College Station.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> However, we have since caught up with you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> William Hyde
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We, as in Canada ?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ontario, anyway. The problem is familiar, aging infrastructure,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> no political benefit in being
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the one to fix it. Because look what we did! Tax Cuts!
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Windmills!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To be fair, 2023 has been good so far, at least in my area. But
>>>>>>>>>>>>> an earlier round of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> tax cuts led to thousands of people being poisoned, seven deaths
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and quite a few
>>>>>>>>>>>>> people with permanent disabilities. But that was water, not
>>>>>>>>>>>>> hydro.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If so, sorry. Life is difficult and constant unlimited
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> electricity
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> makes it easier.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have lights and books. The house doesn't get below freezing, or
>>>>>>>>>>>>> not much. It could be
>>>>>>>>>>>>> far worse.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> William Hyde
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Windmills suck in Texas. The blasted things freeze up below 25
>>>>>>>>>>>> F in
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> So do texas fossil fuel power plants, apparantly.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "Natural gas power generating facilities had equipment
>>>>>>>>>>> freeze up
>>>>>>>>>>> and faced shortages of fuel"
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Texas_power_crisis
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Apparently the important Texans don't believe it ever gets below
>>>>>>>>>> freezing in Texas.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I think the short summary is that everybody wants it fixed but nobody
>>>>>>>>> wants
>>>>>>>>> to pay for it. Texas politicicians are as stupid, but not so stupid
>>>>>>>>> as to
>>>>>>>>> believe that legislating things makes the cost go away. It will have
>>>>>>>>> to get
>>>>>>>>> much more frequent before it gets addressed, at which point everyone
>>>>>>>>> will have
>>>>>>>>> a meltdown because the cost of electricity will rise dramatically. EVs
>>>>>>>>> and heat
>>>>>>>>> pumps are only going to make the problem worse...Texas is used to
>>>>>>>>> having
>>>>>>>>> electricity consumption drop by half or more in the winter.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Robert
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The problem with winter time electricity consumption in Texas is that
>>>>>>>> the weather is either moderate or cold or bitterly cold. The forecasts
>>>>>>>> are worthless a week out so ERCOT must be prepared. It costs money for
>>>>>>>> power plants to be manned around the clock so no one is at the power
>>>>>>>> plant if it is offline. Offline = zero income.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Texas is now changing the rules so that if the power plant is available
>>>>>>>> during emergencies, that power plant will be paid extra money for being
>>>>>>>> online. This is a departure from Texas's only paying for electricity
>>>>>>>> output.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The phrase that comes to mind is "Paying for the ability to _have_
>>>>>>> electricity output." If you aren't willing to pay to keep the
>>>>>>> facilities that make electricity in working order, you aren't going to
>>>>>>> have electricity. Seems pretty self-evident to me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just out of curiousity, does anyone know if any /other/ State finds it
>>>>>> necessary to do this? Or is these purely a Texas Republican "thang"?
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't _know_ but I suspect it is a "Texas thang". Mostly because
>>>>> Texas is its own electrical grid. There are three electric grids
>>>>> covering the US and users in a grid can, in theory at least, get power
>>>>> from anywhere else in that grid. There is one for the western US, one
>>>>> for the eastern US, and Texas. So Texas has chosen to isolate itself
>>>>> and can't draw on outside sources in an emergency.
>>>> There are five grids in the USA. You forgot Hawaii and Alaska. I do
>>>> not know if the southern grid in Alaska extends up into the Fairbanks
>>>> area but I doubt it.
>>>
>>> Hawaii has a separate grid for each island. The water depths between
>>> them, and the distances, make under sea cables impractical.
>>>
>>> https://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_Hawaii#Electricity
>>>
>>> In Alaska, the Willow–Healy Intertie connects the Anchorage area grid
>>> with the Fairbanks area grid. There's a separate grid for the
>>> Panhandle area. The rest of the state is not networked.
>>>
>>> Pt
>> The undersea cables can go quite a way. They are considering putting a
>> power cable from the USA mainland to Puerto Rico, 1,500 miles. "Next Big
>> Idea In Electricity: Subsea Cable From The Mainland To Puerto Rico"
>>
>> https://www.forbes.com/sites/llewellynking/2023/01/24/next-big-idea-in-electricity-subsea-cable-from-the-mainland-to-puerto-rico/?sh=50d511e912bc
>>
>> "The big thinking is to provide electricity by subsea cable to
>> storm-vulnerable Puerto Rico. At 1,500-miles, it would be the longest
>> U.S. cable of its type, but about a third shorter than a cable now
>> planned between Morocco and Britain."
>
> I looked into it a few years ago, mainly with the thought of using geothermal energy from
> the Big Island. Locals informed me that it had been investigated and considered too difficult.
> The nature of the ocean is different - a PR/US cable can run on the continental shelf,
> while the water between the Hawaiian islands is of abyssal depth.
> Perhaps they were wrong, perhaps things changed.
>
> Also, PR has 3.2 million people, Hawaii, less than 1.5.
>
The fact that the Hawaiian Islands still have active volcanoes may be a
factor too.


Click here to read the complete article
Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

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From: psper...@old.netcom.invalid (Paul S Person)
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Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2023 09:01:56 -0700
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 by: Paul S Person - Fri, 17 Mar 2023 16:01 UTC

On Thu, 16 Mar 2023 09:28:06 -0700 (PDT), "pete...@gmail.com"
<petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 11:44:05?AM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Wed, 15 Mar 2023 19:45:13 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
>> <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
>>
>> >On 3/15/2023 3:36 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> >> On 3/13/2023 3:20 PM, rksh...@rosettacondot.com wrote:
>> >>> Dimensional Traveler <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
>> >>>> On 3/13/2023 8:16 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> >>>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> writes:
>> >>>>>> On 3/11/2023 6:50 PM, William Hyde wrote:
>> >>>>>>> On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 3:02:43?PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> >>>>>>>> On 3/11/2023 1:19 PM, William Hyde wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>> On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 5:28:07?PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>> On 3/10/2023 11:29 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>> In article <pdom0ih64j66amff3...@4ax.com>,
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Paul S Person <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Well, I suppose it's /possible/ that people don't wear
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> clothing or
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> have utilities in Texas.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> I don't know about the first but the news suggests utilities are
>> >>>>>>>>>>> at best a sometimes thing in Texas.
>> >>>>>>>>>> Just for 96 hours in Feb 2021 as the electricity was rationed
>> >>>>>>>>>> to those
>> >>>>>>>>>> who needed it the most during the 47% shortfall in generation
>> >>>>>>>>>> (45,000
>> >>>>>>>>>> MW) versus demand (85,000 MW). And the biennial hurricanes.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> When I first moved to Texas I was shocked at the frequency of
>> >>>>>>>>> power outages,
>> >>>>>>>>> even accounting for the occasional hurricane remnant hitting
>> >>>>>>>>> College Station.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> However, we have since caught up with you.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> William Hyde
>> >>>>>>>> We, as in Canada ?
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Ontario, anyway. The problem is familiar, aging infrastructure,
>> >>>>>>> no political benefit in being
>> >>>>>>> the one to fix it. Because look what we did! Tax Cuts! Windmills!
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> To be fair, 2023 has been good so far, at least in my area. But
>> >>>>>>> an earlier round of
>> >>>>>>> tax cuts led to thousands of people being poisoned, seven deaths
>> >>>>>>> and quite a few
>> >>>>>>> people with permanent disabilities. But that was water, not hydro.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> If so, sorry. Life is difficult and constant unlimited electricity
>> >>>>>>>> makes it easier.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> I have lights and books. The house doesn't get below freezing, or
>> >>>>>>> not much. It could be
>> >>>>>>> far worse.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> William Hyde
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Windmills suck in Texas. The blasted things freeze up below 25 F in
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> So do texas fossil fuel power plants, apparantly.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> "Natural gas power generating facilities had equipment freeze up
>> >>>>> and faced shortages of fuel"
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Texas_power_crisis
>> >>>>>
>> >>>> Apparently the important Texans don't believe it ever gets below
>> >>>> freezing in Texas.
>> >>>
>> >>> I think the short summary is that everybody wants it fixed but nobody
>> >>> wants
>> >>> to pay for it. Texas politicicians are as stupid, but not so stupid as to
>> >>> believe that legislating things makes the cost go away. It will have
>> >>> to get
>> >>> much more frequent before it gets addressed, at which point everyone
>> >>> will have
>> >>> a meltdown because the cost of electricity will rise dramatically. EVs
>> >>> and heat
>> >>> pumps are only going to make the problem worse...Texas is used to having
>> >>> electricity consumption drop by half or more in the winter.
>> >>>
>> >>> Robert
>> >>
>> >> The problem with winter time electricity consumption in Texas is that
>> >> the weather is either moderate or cold or bitterly cold. The forecasts
>> >> are worthless a week out so ERCOT must be prepared. It costs money for
>> >> power plants to be manned around the clock so no one is at the power
>> >> plant if it is offline. Offline = zero income.
>> >>
>> >> Texas is now changing the rules so that if the power plant is available
>> >> during emergencies, that power plant will be paid extra money for being
>> >> online. This is a departure from Texas's only paying for electricity
>> >> output.
>> >>
>> >The phrase that comes to mind is "Paying for the ability to _have_
>> >electricity output." If you aren't willing to pay to keep the
>> >facilities that make electricity in working order, you aren't going to
>> >have electricity. Seems pretty self-evident to me.
>> Just out of curiousity, does anyone know if any /other/ State finds it
>> necessary to do this? Or is these purely a Texas Republican "thang"?
>
>Have peaking power plants sit (expensively) on standby? Yes, it's a
>normal part of running a grid.
>
>https://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peaking_power_plant

But is bribing the power plants to do it a normal part of running the
grid?
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

<tv2h60$23np3$5@dont-email.me>

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From: lynnmcgu...@gmail.com (Lynn McGuire)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2023 15:05:20 -0500
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Lynn McGuire - Fri, 17 Mar 2023 20:05 UTC

On 3/17/2023 11:01 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Mar 2023 09:28:06 -0700 (PDT), "pete...@gmail.com"
> <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 11:44:05?AM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
>>> On Wed, 15 Mar 2023 19:45:13 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
>>> <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 3/15/2023 3:36 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>> On 3/13/2023 3:20 PM, rksh...@rosettacondot.com wrote:
>>>>>> Dimensional Traveler <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/13/2023 8:16 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>>>>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>> On 3/11/2023 6:50 PM, William Hyde wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 3:02:43?PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/11/2023 1:19 PM, William Hyde wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 5:28:07?PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/10/2023 11:29 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In article <pdom0ih64j66amff3...@4ax.com>,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Paul S Person <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, I suppose it's /possible/ that people don't wear
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> clothing or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have utilities in Texas.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know about the first but the news suggests utilities are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at best a sometimes thing in Texas.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just for 96 hours in Feb 2021 as the electricity was rationed
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to those
>>>>>>>>>>>>> who needed it the most during the 47% shortfall in generation
>>>>>>>>>>>>> (45,000
>>>>>>>>>>>>> MW) versus demand (85,000 MW). And the biennial hurricanes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> When I first moved to Texas I was shocked at the frequency of
>>>>>>>>>>>> power outages,
>>>>>>>>>>>> even accounting for the occasional hurricane remnant hitting
>>>>>>>>>>>> College Station.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> However, we have since caught up with you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> William Hyde
>>>>>>>>>>> We, as in Canada ?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ontario, anyway. The problem is familiar, aging infrastructure,
>>>>>>>>>> no political benefit in being
>>>>>>>>>> the one to fix it. Because look what we did! Tax Cuts! Windmills!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> To be fair, 2023 has been good so far, at least in my area. But
>>>>>>>>>> an earlier round of
>>>>>>>>>> tax cuts led to thousands of people being poisoned, seven deaths
>>>>>>>>>> and quite a few
>>>>>>>>>> people with permanent disabilities. But that was water, not hydro.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If so, sorry. Life is difficult and constant unlimited electricity
>>>>>>>>>>> makes it easier.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I have lights and books. The house doesn't get below freezing, or
>>>>>>>>>> not much. It could be
>>>>>>>>>> far worse.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> William Hyde
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Windmills suck in Texas. The blasted things freeze up below 25 F in
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So do texas fossil fuel power plants, apparantly.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Natural gas power generating facilities had equipment freeze up
>>>>>>>> and faced shortages of fuel"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Texas_power_crisis
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Apparently the important Texans don't believe it ever gets below
>>>>>>> freezing in Texas.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think the short summary is that everybody wants it fixed but nobody
>>>>>> wants
>>>>>> to pay for it. Texas politicicians are as stupid, but not so stupid as to
>>>>>> believe that legislating things makes the cost go away. It will have
>>>>>> to get
>>>>>> much more frequent before it gets addressed, at which point everyone
>>>>>> will have
>>>>>> a meltdown because the cost of electricity will rise dramatically. EVs
>>>>>> and heat
>>>>>> pumps are only going to make the problem worse...Texas is used to having
>>>>>> electricity consumption drop by half or more in the winter.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Robert
>>>>>
>>>>> The problem with winter time electricity consumption in Texas is that
>>>>> the weather is either moderate or cold or bitterly cold. The forecasts
>>>>> are worthless a week out so ERCOT must be prepared. It costs money for
>>>>> power plants to be manned around the clock so no one is at the power
>>>>> plant if it is offline. Offline = zero income.
>>>>>
>>>>> Texas is now changing the rules so that if the power plant is available
>>>>> during emergencies, that power plant will be paid extra money for being
>>>>> online. This is a departure from Texas's only paying for electricity
>>>>> output.
>>>>>
>>>> The phrase that comes to mind is "Paying for the ability to _have_
>>>> electricity output." If you aren't willing to pay to keep the
>>>> facilities that make electricity in working order, you aren't going to
>>>> have electricity. Seems pretty self-evident to me.
>>> Just out of curiousity, does anyone know if any /other/ State finds it
>>> necessary to do this? Or is these purely a Texas Republican "thang"?
>>
>> Have peaking power plants sit (expensively) on standby? Yes, it's a
>> normal part of running a grid.
>>
>> https://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peaking_power_plant
>
> But is bribing the power plants to do it a normal part of running the
> grid?

Every state except for Texas pays power plants a capacity charge for
connecting to the grid. Texas moved to an energy payment system only
back in 1999 ??? when the for profit electricity providers (TXU, HLP,
CSW, etc) were separated into regulated (power transmission and electric
meter sales) and unregulated (power generation).
https://www.houstonchronicle.com/local/explainer/article/texas-electric-deregulation-ERCOT-TCAP-7971360.php

Lynn

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

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 by: The Horny Goat - Mon, 20 Mar 2023 17:13 UTC

On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 08:46:12 -0700, Paul S Person
<psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

>>The Texas Constitution and statutory law authorizes local governments to
>>collect the tax. The state does not set tax rates, collect taxes or
>>settle disputes between you and your local governments.
>
>No State property tax?

Why are you so surprised? There isn't a provincial level property tax
anywhere in Canada (where the right to levy property taxes is the
exclusive jurisdiction of municipalities)

(In Canada there is no capital gains tax on the sale of your primary
residence though unlike the US there's no deduction on your mortgate
payments either)

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

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 by: Scott Lurndal - Mon, 20 Mar 2023 17:22 UTC

The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> writes:
>On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 08:46:12 -0700, Paul S Person
><psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>
>>>The Texas Constitution and statutory law authorizes local governments to
>>>collect the tax. The state does not set tax rates, collect taxes or
>>>settle disputes between you and your local governments.
>>
>>No State property tax?
>
>Why are you so surprised? There isn't a provincial level property tax
>anywhere in Canada (where the right to levy property taxes is the
>exclusive jurisdiction of municipalities)

"If your property is not located in a city, town, district
or village, it is in a rural area. When you own property
or lease Crown land in a rural area, you will receive your
property tax notice from the province's Surveyor of Taxes
Office every June. You pay your property taxes to the province."

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

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 by: Lee Gleason - Sun, 26 Mar 2023 17:25 UTC

On 3/6/2023 12:06 PM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> We've had a ton of books over the past 50 years dealing with overpopulation.
>
> We've also had a ton of books where the human race gets killed off real
> good, whether by meteors, hungry aliens, infertility/disease, zombies
> or nuclear war. Most stories (not all) end with a few viewpoint humans
> left, often with an implication that they will repopulate the Earth.
>
> We're now looking at a new threat: demographic collapse. We aren't
> having enough babies[1]. Quite aside from the economic burden of
> a shrinking working population supporting a massive overhang of
> elderly over the next few decades, we have fewer and fewer people
> entering parental age. Like overpopulation, this feeds back on itself.
>
> Have any stories dealt with trying to reverse this?
>
> pt
>
> [1] Yes, I know sub saharan Africa and a few other countries don't have
> this problem, but we're in an SF group - I can specify the parameters.
>
>
"Implosion" by DF Jones. Great ending.

--
Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR
Control-G Consultants
lee.gleason@comcast.net

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

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From: lcra...@home.ca (The Horny Goat)
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Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
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 by: The Horny Goat - Wed, 29 Mar 2023 20:04 UTC

On Mon, 20 Mar 2023 17:22:52 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

>The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> writes:
>>On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 08:46:12 -0700, Paul S Person
>><psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>No State property tax?
>>
>>Why are you so surprised? There isn't a provincial level property tax
>>anywhere in Canada (where the right to levy property taxes is the
>>exclusive jurisdiction of municipalities)
>
> "If your property is not located in a city, town, district
> or village, it is in a rural area. When you own property
> or lease Crown land in a rural area, you will receive your
> property tax notice from the province's Surveyor of Taxes
> Office every June. You pay your property taxes to the province."

OK you got me there - though again, if you live in an "organized area"
(e.g. city, town, village, regional district) you pay them. That's at
most 1% of the population - but I DID say 'isn't' so you're right and
I'm not.

However there are LOTS of 'rural areas' within organized
municipalities. Surrey, BC is an excellent example and they have a
population north of 1/2 million.

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