A Gift From Earth by Larry Niven

An invisible man pursues the girl of his dreams. Problem is,
his dreams are not her dreams.

https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/cant-you-see
--
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On Sunday, May 7, 2023 at 9:00:26 AM UTC-5, James Nicoll wrote:
> A Gift From Earth by Larry Niven
>
> An invisible man pursues the girl of his dreams. Problem is,
> his dreams are not her dreams.

To be fair, I think Niven _intended_ Matt to come across mostly as he did. He's young, inexperienced, frustrated (let's be honest, being cursed with a psi talent that causes women who would otherwise find you interesting to _automatically_ lose interest _because you find them attractive_ would make most young inexperienced males think and act at least a little like Matt. I also suspect his actual behavior, once he learns to control his power, won't be as creepy as the ending seems to imply. Matt isn't so much evil or sadistic as he is frustrated, shallow and inexperienced. I suspect the Matt of five years later would be far more mature and balanced.)

The problems with Plateau as a world, yeah, there's no way around that. Unless there's some weirdness holding that mountain up in the sky, it should sink down. And there almost has to be life down in that soup somewhere to replenish the oxygen. But a lot of Niven's KS worlds have that sort of issue. Jinx, for ex, the egg-shaped world, I don't believe in it for a moment.. A planet could be pulled into an egg shape, of course, by the appropriate gravitational conditions, but it would sink back into a sphere as soon as they were removed.

Regarding the governments...how _could_ the UN government influence their founding? They're many light-years from Sol, and at that point in the time line there's no access to FTL travel. I could just about imagine the crew of the sleeper ship doing what they did. Years on end of work and effort, under pressure and with no margin for error, while your passengers slept blissfully away...yeah, I could picture the crew deciding to rig the game in their favor on arrival, given how easy it would be to do. Even if the UN government found out about it (which would takes years for the messages to reach Sol), they can't really _do_ anything about it.

As Bugs Bunny once said to Mission Control, "You are hardly in a position to enforce your wishes."

The outcome, the society we see in the story, I don't find that as convincing. But I don't find most of Niven's politics and societies convincing. Pournelle is better at that stuff, that's part of why their collaborations used to work so well.

On Sunday, May 7, 2023 at 9:00:26 AM UTC-5, James Nicoll wrote:
> A Gift From Earth by Larry Niven
>
> An invisible man pursues the girl of his dreams. Problem is,
> his dreams are not her dreams.
>
> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/cant-you-see

As for the birth control, well, Niven (like Asimov) was one those SF writers who thought the population bomb was a real thing. It was a common trope of the era, and it shows up all over Niven's fiction from that time. In a non-fiction commentary Niven wrote (way back then) about the Gil Hamilton stories, he actually said that he didn't see how the future could avoid the rigid, oppressive population control regimes such as the ones in his KS stories, bar a major nuclear war or something like that.

On Sun, 7 May 2023 18:58:31 -0700 (PDT), Johnny1A
<johnny1a.again@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, May 7, 2023 at 9:00:26?AM UTC-5, James Nicoll wrote:
>> A Gift From Earth by Larry Niven
>>
>> An invisible man pursues the girl of his dreams. Problem is,
>> his dreams are not her dreams.
>
>To be fair, I think Niven _intended_ Matt to come across mostly as he did. He's young, inexperienced, frustrated (let's be honest, being cursed with a psi talent that causes women who would otherwise find you interesting to _automatically_ lose interest _because you find them attractive_ would make most young inexperienced males think and act at least a little like Matt. I also suspect his actual behavior, once he learns to control his power, won't be as creepy as the ending seems to imply. Matt isn't so much evil or sadistic as he is frustrated, shallow and inexperienced. I suspect the Matt of five years later would be far more mature and balanced.)
>
>The problems with Plateau as a world, yeah, there's no way around that. Unless there's some weirdness holding that mountain up in the sky, it should sink down. And there almost has to be life down in that soup somewhere to replenish the oxygen. But a lot of Niven's KS worlds have that sort of issue. Jinx, for ex, the egg-shaped world, I don't believe in it for a moment. A planet could be pulled into an egg shape, of course, by the appropriate gravitational conditions, but it would sink back into a sphere as soon as they were removed.
>
>Regarding the governments...how _could_ the UN government influence their founding? They're many light-years from Sol, and at that point in the time line there's no access to FTL travel. I could just about imagine the crew of the sleeper ship doing what they did. Years on end of work and effort, under pressure and with no margin for error, while your passengers slept blissfully away...yeah, I could picture the crew deciding to rig the game in their favor on arrival, given how easy it would be to do. Even if the UN government found out about it (which would takes years for the messages to reach Sol), they can't really _do_ anything about it.
>
>As Bugs Bunny once said to Mission Control, "You are hardly in a position to enforce your wishes."

Isn't that the one where they lure him into doing what the went by
dangling a carrot in front of him?

Which turns out, when he finally gets his hands on it, to be ...
metal?

>The outcome, the society we see in the story, I don't find that as convincing. But I don't find most of Niven's politics and societies convincing. Pournelle is better at that stuff, that's part of why their collaborations used to work so well.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

On 5/7/2023 9:00 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
> A Gift From Earth by Larry Niven
>
> An invisible man pursues the girl of his dreams. Problem is,
> his dreams are not her dreams.
>
> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/cant-you-see

I actually have this book in my SBR. Someday I will read it (again).

Lynn

On Sun, 7 May 2023 19:02:43 -0700 (PDT), Johnny1A
<johnny1a.again@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, May 7, 2023 at 9:00:26?AM UTC-5, James Nicoll wrote:
>> A Gift From Earth by Larry Niven
>>
>> An invisible man pursues the girl of his dreams. Problem is,
>> his dreams are not her dreams.
>>
>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/cant-you-see
>
>As for the birth control, well, Niven (like Asimov) was one those SF writers who thought the population bomb was a real thing. It was a common trope of the era, and it shows up all over Niven's fiction from that time. In a non-fiction commentary Niven wrote (way back then) about the Gil Hamilton stories, he actually said that he didn't see how the future could avoid the rigid, oppressive population control regimes such as the ones in his KS stories, bar a major nuclear war or something like that.

When Niven was writing A Gift From Earth the population was about 3.5
billion. Now it is 8 billion, so more than doubled in a little of 50
years. He might end up being correct about population controls.

On 5/8/2023 3:19 PM, banjo@dontspam.silent.com wrote:
> On Sun, 7 May 2023 19:02:43 -0700 (PDT), Johnny1A
> <johnny1a.again@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sunday, May 7, 2023 at 9:00:26?AM UTC-5, James Nicoll wrote:
>>> A Gift From Earth by Larry Niven
>>>
>>> An invisible man pursues the girl of his dreams. Problem is,
>>> his dreams are not her dreams.
>>>
>>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/cant-you-see
>>
>> As for the birth control, well, Niven (like Asimov) was one those SF writers who thought the population bomb was a real thing. It was a common trope of the era, and it shows up all over Niven's fiction from that time. In a non-fiction commentary Niven wrote (way back then) about the Gil Hamilton stories, he actually said that he didn't see how the future could avoid the rigid, oppressive population control regimes such as the ones in his KS stories, bar a major nuclear war or something like that.
>
> When Niven was writing A Gift From Earth the population was about 3.5
> billion. Now it is 8 billion, so more than doubled in a little of 50
> years. He might end up being correct about population controls.

Only if you ignore the fact that birth rates are currently declining to
below the level required to sustain the current population numbers.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On Monday, May 8, 2023 at 10:35:50 AM UTC-5, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Sun, 7 May 2023 18:58:31 -0700 (PDT), Johnny1A
> <johnny1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Sunday, May 7, 2023 at 9:00:26?AM UTC-5, James Nicoll wrote:
> >> A Gift From Earth by Larry Niven
> >>
> >> An invisible man pursues the girl of his dreams. Problem is,
> >> his dreams are not her dreams.
> >
> >To be fair, I think Niven _intended_ Matt to come across mostly as he did. He's young, inexperienced, frustrated (let's be honest, being cursed with a psi talent that causes women who would otherwise find you interesting to _automatically_ lose interest _because you find them attractive_ would make most young inexperienced males think and act at least a little like Matt.. I also suspect his actual behavior, once he learns to control his power, won't be as creepy as the ending seems to imply. Matt isn't so much evil or sadistic as he is frustrated, shallow and inexperienced. I suspect the Matt of five years later would be far more mature and balanced.)
> >
> >The problems with Plateau as a world, yeah, there's no way around that. Unless there's some weirdness holding that mountain up in the sky, it should sink down. And there almost has to be life down in that soup somewhere to replenish the oxygen. But a lot of Niven's KS worlds have that sort of issue. Jinx, for ex, the egg-shaped world, I don't believe in it for a moment. A planet could be pulled into an egg shape, of course, by the appropriate gravitational conditions, but it would sink back into a sphere as soon as they were removed.
> >
> >Regarding the governments...how _could_ the UN government influence their founding? They're many light-years from Sol, and at that point in the time line there's no access to FTL travel. I could just about imagine the crew of the sleeper ship doing what they did. Years on end of work and effort, under pressure and with no margin for error, while your passengers slept blissfully away...yeah, I could picture the crew deciding to rig the game in their favor on arrival, given how easy it would be to do. Even if the UN government found out about it (which would takes years for the messages to reach Sol), they can't really _do_ anything about it.
> >
> >As Bugs Bunny once said to Mission Control, "You are hardly in a position to enforce your wishes."
> Isn't that the one where they lure him into doing what the went by
> dangling a carrot in front of him?
>
> Which turns out, when he finally gets his hands on it, to be ...
> metal?

Yep, that's the one. But the crew already had the carrots on Plateau.

Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> writes:
>On 5/8/2023 3:19 PM, banjo@dontspam.silent.com wrote:
>> On Sun, 7 May 2023 19:02:43 -0700 (PDT), Johnny1A
>> <johnny1a.again@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sunday, May 7, 2023 at 9:00:26?AM UTC-5, James Nicoll wrote:
>>>> A Gift From Earth by Larry Niven
>>>>
>>>> An invisible man pursues the girl of his dreams. Problem is,
>>>> his dreams are not her dreams.
>>>>
>>>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/cant-you-see
>>>
>>> As for the birth control, well, Niven (like Asimov) was one those SF writers who thought the population bomb was a real thing. It was a common trope of the era, and it shows up all over Niven's fiction from that time. In a non-fiction commentary Niven wrote (way back then) about the Gil Hamilton stories, he actually said that he didn't see how the future could avoid the rigid, oppressive population control regimes such as the ones in his KS stories, bar a major nuclear war or something like that.
>>
>> When Niven was writing A Gift From Earth the population was about 3.5
>> billion. Now it is 8 billion, so more than doubled in a little of 50
>> years. He might end up being correct about population controls.
>
>Only if you ignore the fact that birth rates are currently declining to
>below the level required to sustain the current population numbers.

Which is true in parts of the world, and not true in other parts.

Regardless, the carrying capacity of the planet has been exceeded
for quite some time now.

On 5/9/2023 6:56 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> writes:
>> On 5/8/2023 3:19 PM, banjo@dontspam.silent.com wrote:
>>> On Sun, 7 May 2023 19:02:43 -0700 (PDT), Johnny1A
>>> <johnny1a.again@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sunday, May 7, 2023 at 9:00:26?AM UTC-5, James Nicoll wrote:
>>>>> A Gift From Earth by Larry Niven
>>>>>
>>>>> An invisible man pursues the girl of his dreams. Problem is,
>>>>> his dreams are not her dreams.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/cant-you-see
>>>>
>>>> As for the birth control, well, Niven (like Asimov) was one those SF writers who thought the population bomb was a real thing. It was a common trope of the era, and it shows up all over Niven's fiction from that time. In a non-fiction commentary Niven wrote (way back then) about the Gil Hamilton stories, he actually said that he didn't see how the future could avoid the rigid, oppressive population control regimes such as the ones in his KS stories, bar a major nuclear war or something like that.
>>>
>>> When Niven was writing A Gift From Earth the population was about 3.5
>>> billion. Now it is 8 billion, so more than doubled in a little of 50
>>> years. He might end up being correct about population controls.
>>
>> Only if you ignore the fact that birth rates are currently declining to
>> below the level required to sustain the current population numbers.
>
> Which is true in parts of the world, and not true in other parts.
>
> Regardless, the carrying capacity of the planet has been exceeded
> for quite some time now.

That is based on what? Localized food shortages caused by political and
ethnic conflicts? Pollution caused by organizations that can easily
afford to reduce or eliminate it but would rather have the extra profits?

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> writes:
>On 5/9/2023 6:56 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> writes:
>>> On 5/8/2023 3:19 PM, banjo@dontspam.silent.com wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 7 May 2023 19:02:43 -0700 (PDT), Johnny1A
>>>> <johnny1a.again@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sunday, May 7, 2023 at 9:00:26?AM UTC-5, James Nicoll wrote:
>>>>>> A Gift From Earth by Larry Niven
>>>>>>
>>>>>> An invisible man pursues the girl of his dreams. Problem is,
>>>>>> his dreams are not her dreams.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/cant-you-see
>>>>>
>>>>> As for the birth control, well, Niven (like Asimov) was one those SF writers who thought the population bomb was a real thing. It was a common trope of the era, and it shows up all over Niven's fiction from that time. In a non-fiction commentary Niven wrote (way back then) about the Gil Hamilton stories, he actually said that he didn't see how the future could avoid the rigid, oppressive population control regimes such as the ones in his KS stories, bar a major nuclear war or something like that.
>>>>
>>>> When Niven was writing A Gift From Earth the population was about 3.5
>>>> billion. Now it is 8 billion, so more than doubled in a little of 50
>>>> years. He might end up being correct about population controls.
>>>
>>> Only if you ignore the fact that birth rates are currently declining to
>>> below the level required to sustain the current population numbers.
>>
>> Which is true in parts of the world, and not true in other parts.
>>
>> Regardless, the carrying capacity of the planet has been exceeded
>> for quite some time now.
>
>That is based on what? Localized food shortages caused by political and
>ethnic conflicts? Pollution caused by organizations that can easily
>afford to reduce or eliminate it but would rather have the extra profits?

Energy use and growth, primarily.

https://escholarship.org/uc/item/9js5291m