The qualifier is always that one rotation of the Earth is responsible for the sunrise/noon/sunset cycle every 24 hours so those who imagine differently can say anything they like to me and about me or indeed misuse others, like Augustine, who were unaware of cause and effect while admitting so.

"Some of the brethren raise a question concerning the motion of
heaven, whether it is fixed or moved. If it is moved, they say, how is
it a firmament? If it stands still, how do these stars which are held
fixed in it go round from east to west, the more northerly performing
shorter circuits near the pole, so that the heaven (if there is
another pole unknown to us) may seem to revolve upon some axis, or (if
there is no other pole) may be thought to move as a discus? To these
men I reply that it would require many subtle and profound reasonings
to find out which of these things is actually so" St Augustine

Cause and effect are one rotation equates to one day/night cycle every 24 hours derived from specific reasoning, the next step up is the cause of the variations in the natural noon cycle as two rotations of the planet acting in combination are responsible for that observation taken from one complete noon cycle to the next. That takes profound reasoning and took quite some time but even though I cracked it almost two decades ago, few would know it due to the prevailing absence of reasonable people. It was something neither Copernicus nor Galileo could resolve as Galileo points out-

"From what I see, did not understand very well- was a certain experiment which I exhibited to some gentlemen there at Rome, and perhaps at the very house of Your Excellency, in partial explanation and partial refutation of the "third motion" attributed by Copernicus to the earth. This extra rotation, opposite in direction to all other celestial motions, appeared to many a most improbable thing, and one that upset the whole Copernican system. . . .. What I said was designed to remove a difficulty attributed to the Copernican system, and I later added that anyone who would reflect upon the matter more carefully would see that Copernicus had spoken falsely when he attributed his "third motion" to the earth since this would not be a motion at all, but a kind of rest. It is certainly true that to the person holding the bowl, such a ball appears to move with respect to himself and to the bowl and to turn upon its axis. But with respect to the wan (or any other external thing), the ball does not turn at all, and does not change its tilt, and any point upon it will continue to point toward the same distant object" Galileo, The Assayer.

Science, or basically solar system and Earth science research is a lot of fun first and foremost even if it is beyond those who lack the perceptive ability to appreciate the intricacies involved yet eventually can be explained easily enough with visuals.

Spirit and Inspiration are the same thing just as being Spiritual is to be Inspirational. Love the Universe as an individual and the Universe will love the individual back as the gifts belong to God/Spirit, but all the challenges belong to us-

"And now, brother, listen to the conclusion. Above all the graces and all the gifts of the Holy Spirit which Christ grants to his friends, is the grace of overcoming oneself, and accepting willingly, out of love for Christ, all suffering, injury, discomfort and contempt; for in all other gifts of God we cannot glory, seeing they proceed not from ourselves but from God" St Francis of Assisi

On Wed, 24 May 2023 03:27:20 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
<jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

>On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 4:00:31?AM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:
>> On Tuesday, May 23, 2023 at 7:52:29?PM UTC-6, Robert Carnegie wrote:
>>
>> > However, "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it,
>> > doesn't go away." The movement of the Earth proceeds
>> > without depending on your belief about it.
>> That is true.
>>
>> But for the most part, he does not claim that the Earth moves in
>> any way that is different from the way it actually does move.
>>
>> All he does is claim that the way scientists today think about these
>> motions is wrong. For example, astronomers say the Earth rotates
>> once every 23 hours, 56 minutes, and 4 seconds.
>>
>> Why not just once every 24 hours?
>>
>> Well, because counting rotation relative to the fixed stars lets one
>> calculate centrifugal force correctly. And if one used rotation relative
>> to the actual Sun instead of the mean sun, one would have to keep
>> adding and then subtracting the correction for the Equation of Time.
>>
>> He doesn't know the math, and he doesn't do the math, so he
>> has no sympathy for how compound motions need to be decomposed
>> into their individual components to allow calculations to be manageable.
>>
>> Instead of calculating, we should just look up and be inspired by the
>> awe and wonder of the Universe! Sorry, we only get to do that on our
>> days off.
>
>For an on-topic observation... this passage from Tolkien's _The Lord
>of the Rings_ had been disturbing to me.
>
>"Radagast the Brown! " laughed Saruman, and he no longer concealed his
>scorn. "Radagast the Bird-tamer! Radagast the Simple! Radagast the Fool! Yet
>he had just the wit to play the part that I set him. For you have come, and
>that was all the purpose of my message. And here you will stay, Gandalf the
>Grey, and rest from journeys. For I am Saruman the Wise, Saruman Ring-maker,
>Saruman of Many Colours! "
>'I looked then and saw that his robes, which had seemed white, were not
> so, but were woven of all colours. and if he moved they shimmered and changed
>hue so that the eye was bewildered.
>"I liked white better," I said.
>"White! " he sneered. "It serves as a beginning. White cloth may be
>dyed. The white page can be overwritten; and the white light can be broken."
>"In which case it is no longer white," said I. "And he that breaks a
>thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom."
>
>It seemed as though Tolkien were... taking a dig at Isaac Newton and
>his experiments with light and prisms. And while Saruman is undoubtedly
>evil, what Newton did was right and proper, and added greatly to our
>understanding of light.

While I doubt that it was that specific, JRRT preferred the unaltered
countryside to the mechanical city. The /Orcs/ are good at inventing
mechanisms; Saruman developed gunpowder (or something like it); the
good guys were much more traditional. The Dwarves /discovered/ mithril
as an ore; they did not invent it as a metal.

Also keep in mind that these are Maiar and, in their natural state as
"angelic beings", might not need to break a thing to find out what it
is.

Some have pointed out that, until not so far back as all that, there
were people among us who went from horses being the main means of
transportation to airplanes. JRRT was one of those people, and, like
many, longed for the Days of His Youth to return. Preferably without
WWI, of course.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

On Tue, 23 May 2023 16:13:42 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

>Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
>>On Sun, 21 May 2023 10:21:21 -0700 (PDT), Gerald Kelleher
>><kelleher.gerald@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>
>>IOW, you are promoting religion rather than science. That explains a
>>lot.
>>
>>Nothing wrong with that
>
>Actually, that's debatable.

Everybody does it. Well, almost everybody.

Keep in mind that "religion" in the context of argumentation is
composed of statements that can neither be proved nor falsified. Most
political statements, including all culture war statements, on /all/
sides, have that quality. This is what makes it so hard to find a
consensus or even discuss the issues: its all religion, and so
impervious to argument.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 12:16:19 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Wed, 24 May 2023 03:27:20 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
> <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
> >On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 4:00:31?AM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:
> >> On Tuesday, May 23, 2023 at 7:52:29?PM UTC-6, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> >>
> >> > However, "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it,
> >> > doesn't go away." The movement of the Earth proceeds
> >> > without depending on your belief about it.
> >> That is true.
> >>
> >> But for the most part, he does not claim that the Earth moves in
> >> any way that is different from the way it actually does move.
> >>
> >> All he does is claim that the way scientists today think about these
> >> motions is wrong. For example, astronomers say the Earth rotates
> >> once every 23 hours, 56 minutes, and 4 seconds.
> >>
> >> Why not just once every 24 hours?
> >>
> >> Well, because counting rotation relative to the fixed stars lets one
> >> calculate centrifugal force correctly. And if one used rotation relative
> >> to the actual Sun instead of the mean sun, one would have to keep
> >> adding and then subtracting the correction for the Equation of Time.
> >>
> >> He doesn't know the math, and he doesn't do the math, so he
> >> has no sympathy for how compound motions need to be decomposed
> >> into their individual components to allow calculations to be manageable.
> >>
> >> Instead of calculating, we should just look up and be inspired by the
> >> awe and wonder of the Universe! Sorry, we only get to do that on our
> >> days off.
> >
> >For an on-topic observation... this passage from Tolkien's _The Lord
> >of the Rings_ had been disturbing to me.
> >
> >"Radagast the Brown! " laughed Saruman, and he no longer concealed his
> >scorn. "Radagast the Bird-tamer! Radagast the Simple! Radagast the Fool! Yet
> >he had just the wit to play the part that I set him. For you have come, and
> >that was all the purpose of my message. And here you will stay, Gandalf the
> >Grey, and rest from journeys. For I am Saruman the Wise, Saruman Ring-maker,
> >Saruman of Many Colours! "
> >'I looked then and saw that his robes, which had seemed white, were not
> > so, but were woven of all colours. and if he moved they shimmered and changed
> >hue so that the eye was bewildered.
> >"I liked white better," I said.
> >"White! " he sneered. "It serves as a beginning. White cloth may be
> >dyed. The white page can be overwritten; and the white light can be broken."
> >"In which case it is no longer white," said I. "And he that breaks a
> >thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom."
> >
> >It seemed as though Tolkien were... taking a dig at Isaac Newton and
> >his experiments with light and prisms. And while Saruman is undoubtedly
> >evil, what Newton did was right and proper, and added greatly to our
> >understanding of light.

And for that matter, Newton also used prisms to create white light, showing that
what he had disassembled he could put back together. One up on Saruman there.

[...]

> Some have pointed out that, until not so far back as all that, there
> were people among us who went from horses being the main means of
> transportation to airplanes. JRRT was one of those people, and, like
> many, longed for the Days of His Youth to return. Preferably without
> WWI, of course.

I wonder how the WWI battlefields would have inspired JRRT had he gone on with sequels.
Apparently there is a substantial "red zone" in Northern France where people are not allowed to
live or farm. Much of it is covered in woods of which he would at first approve, but a closer
look shows the areato be toxic, with orders of magnitude more arsenic and aluminum perchlorate
than people can tolerate. If any of those trees bear fruit, it is toxic. Reminds me of the unnatural
plants in Morgul vale.

Within the red zone is an area of about one hundred square kilometers where nothing
but lichen will grow. Remediation processes are slow enough that one estimate
was that this would take five hundred years to be habitable.

Outside the red zone is a far larger yellow zone where farming is allowed. But even here
all is not well, and there are hot spots as bad as the red zone.

And of course there's the unexploded ammunition problem. Vast amounts of this
are recovered each year, and people still die from it. Not a problem for Mordor,
I suppose.

William Hyde

On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 2:32:56 PM UTC-4, William Hyde wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 12:16:19 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
> > On Wed, 24 May 2023 03:27:20 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
> > <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> >
> > >On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 4:00:31?AM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:
> > >> On Tuesday, May 23, 2023 at 7:52:29?PM UTC-6, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > However, "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it,
> > >> > doesn't go away." The movement of the Earth proceeds
> > >> > without depending on your belief about it.
> > >> That is true.
> > >>
> > >> But for the most part, he does not claim that the Earth moves in
> > >> any way that is different from the way it actually does move.
> > >>
> > >> All he does is claim that the way scientists today think about these
> > >> motions is wrong. For example, astronomers say the Earth rotates
> > >> once every 23 hours, 56 minutes, and 4 seconds.
> > >>
> > >> Why not just once every 24 hours?
> > >>
> > >> Well, because counting rotation relative to the fixed stars lets one
> > >> calculate centrifugal force correctly. And if one used rotation relative
> > >> to the actual Sun instead of the mean sun, one would have to keep
> > >> adding and then subtracting the correction for the Equation of Time.
> > >>
> > >> He doesn't know the math, and he doesn't do the math, so he
> > >> has no sympathy for how compound motions need to be decomposed
> > >> into their individual components to allow calculations to be manageable.
> > >>
> > >> Instead of calculating, we should just look up and be inspired by the
> > >> awe and wonder of the Universe! Sorry, we only get to do that on our
> > >> days off.
> > >
> > >For an on-topic observation... this passage from Tolkien's _The Lord
> > >of the Rings_ had been disturbing to me.
> > >
> > >"Radagast the Brown! " laughed Saruman, and he no longer concealed his
> > >scorn. "Radagast the Bird-tamer! Radagast the Simple! Radagast the Fool! Yet
> > >he had just the wit to play the part that I set him. For you have come, and
> > >that was all the purpose of my message. And here you will stay, Gandalf the
> > >Grey, and rest from journeys. For I am Saruman the Wise, Saruman Ring-maker,
> > >Saruman of Many Colours! "
> > >'I looked then and saw that his robes, which had seemed white, were not
> > > so, but were woven of all colours. and if he moved they shimmered and changed
> > >hue so that the eye was bewildered.
> > >"I liked white better," I said.
> > >"White! " he sneered. "It serves as a beginning. White cloth may be
> > >dyed. The white page can be overwritten; and the white light can be broken."
> > >"In which case it is no longer white," said I. "And he that breaks a
> > >thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom."
> > >
> > >It seemed as though Tolkien were... taking a dig at Isaac Newton and
> > >his experiments with light and prisms. And while Saruman is undoubtedly
> > >evil, what Newton did was right and proper, and added greatly to our
> > >understanding of light.
> And for that matter, Newton also used prisms to create white light, showing that
> what he had disassembled he could put back together. One up on Saruman there.
>
> [...]
> > Some have pointed out that, until not so far back as all that, there
> > were people among us who went from horses being the main means of
> > transportation to airplanes. JRRT was one of those people, and, like
> > many, longed for the Days of His Youth to return. Preferably without
> > WWI, of course.
> I wonder how the WWI battlefields would have inspired JRRT had he gone on with sequels.
> Apparently there is a substantial "red zone" in Northern France where people are not allowed to
> live or farm. Much of it is covered in woods of which he would at first approve, but a closer
> look shows the areato be toxic, with orders of magnitude more arsenic and aluminum perchlorate
> than people can tolerate. If any of those trees bear fruit, it is toxic. Reminds me of the unnatural
> plants in Morgul vale.
>
> Within the red zone is an area of about one hundred square kilometers where nothing
> but lichen will grow. Remediation processes are slow enough that one estimate
> was that this would take five hundred years to be habitable.
>
> Outside the red zone is a far larger yellow zone where farming is allowed.. But even here
> all is not well, and there are hot spots as bad as the red zone.
>
> And of course there's the unexploded ammunition problem. Vast amounts of this
> are recovered each year, and people still die from it. Not a problem for Mordor,
> I suppose.
>
> William Hyde

Details here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqwkVS3VzpA

Most of the red zone looks pretty normal from a distance, but there is one
area of a few dozen acres that's as bad as you say - it was used for some
early remediation efforts and vast numbers of shells and other munitions
were burned there, including poison gas shells.

pt

On 2023-05-22 22:16, Gerald Kelleher wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 23, 2023 at 4:32:21 AM UTC+1, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Monday, May 22, 2023 at 1:53:18 PM UTC-4, Gerald Kelleher wrote:
>>> One day, a person wakes up and sees the Sun come into view as the planet turns once every 24 hours and realises they have been missing out on the connection between their bodies and their lives to the daily, annual and other motions of the planet.
>>>
>>> Then there are those who cannot as they are attached to the clockwork solar system and the timekeeping misadventure captured by a single statement-
>>> " It is a fact not generally known that, owing to the difference between solar and sidereal time, the Earth rotates upon its axis once more often than there are 24-hour days in the year" NASA /Harvard
>>> The more society marvels at the body and all its working components, the more they appreciate the wider surroundings and all the motions they participate in. Science fantasy is harmless and a welcome distraction sometimes, however, when it is allied with science fiction like the solar/sidereal fiction above, it becomes unproductive, dull and all the negative influences on society.
>>>
>>> Have a ball having a go at me, those who love creation and the Universe are loved in return.
>> If you have such a distaste for SF, why don't you leave this group? No one finds your beliefs
>> concerning sidereal vs solar time interesting, inciteful, or useful. No one here cares.
>>
>> Pt
>
> I don't have any distaste for people, however, students today have a chance to escape your zombie-like fate where you can't accept that one rotation creates one sunrise/noon/sunset cycle every 24 hours hence you live in a science fantasy world with no connection to your surroundings.
>
> It is more a human horror newsgroup here insofar as normally imaginative science fantasy has a role in society yet without an appreciation of basic planetary facts, it becomes one long boring attempt to figuratively bite someone demonstrating the joys of the Universe as it really exists.
>
> The solar/sidereal fantasy is a signature of a lost soul otherwise it a stupid conclusion drawn from a timekeeping misadventure. If it is any consolation, in future, your subculture will represent a lesson of sorts for generations to come.
>
>

You are...

....just boring.

https://sol24.net/data/html/SOHO/C3/96H/VIDEO/

Aldebaran is heading for a heliacal rising as it transitions from left to right of the Sun or from an evening to morning appearance.

The distance from the observer to the horizon acts like a giant Sun visor so any star to the right of the Sun as it appears as a first dawn appearance is a property of the Earth's orbital motion just as Sirius provided the reference for the beginning of a New Year in antiquity and the basis of the 365/366 day calendar cycle-

".. on account of the procession of the rising of Sirius by one day in the course of 4 years,.. therefore it shall be, that the year of 360 days and the 5 days added to their end, so one day shall be from this day after every 4 years added to the 5 epagomenae before the new year" Canopus Decree 238 BC

That is magnificent, exquisite and all those things that observers are supposed to admire with observations, interpretations and even practical purposes like timekeeping.

There are no swine out there, just those people who haven't used their perceptive faculties and prefer to live in a fantasy world which satisfies their needs. Others need a genuine appreciation of their surroundings in its power, gentleness, ferocity, calmness and all those things which are also part of a human individual.

On Wednesday, 24 May 2023 at 19:32:56 UTC+1, William Hyde wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 12:16:19 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
> > On Wed, 24 May 2023 03:27:20 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
> > <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> >
> > >On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 4:00:31?AM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:
> > >> On Tuesday, May 23, 2023 at 7:52:29?PM UTC-6, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > However, "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it,
> > >> > doesn't go away." The movement of the Earth proceeds
> > >> > without depending on your belief about it.
> > >> That is true.
> > >>
> > >> But for the most part, he does not claim that the Earth moves in
> > >> any way that is different from the way it actually does move.
> > >>
> > >> All he does is claim that the way scientists today think about these
> > >> motions is wrong. For example, astronomers say the Earth rotates
> > >> once every 23 hours, 56 minutes, and 4 seconds.
> > >>
> > >> Why not just once every 24 hours?
> > >>
> > >> Well, because counting rotation relative to the fixed stars lets one
> > >> calculate centrifugal force correctly. And if one used rotation relative
> > >> to the actual Sun instead of the mean sun, one would have to keep
> > >> adding and then subtracting the correction for the Equation of Time.
> > >>
> > >> He doesn't know the math, and he doesn't do the math, so he
> > >> has no sympathy for how compound motions need to be decomposed
> > >> into their individual components to allow calculations to be manageable.
> > >>
> > >> Instead of calculating, we should just look up and be inspired by the
> > >> awe and wonder of the Universe! Sorry, we only get to do that on our
> > >> days off.
> > >
> > >For an on-topic observation... this passage from Tolkien's _The Lord
> > >of the Rings_ had been disturbing to me.
> > >
> > >"Radagast the Brown! " laughed Saruman, and he no longer concealed his
> > >scorn. "Radagast the Bird-tamer! Radagast the Simple! Radagast the Fool! Yet
> > >he had just the wit to play the part that I set him. For you have come, and
> > >that was all the purpose of my message. And here you will stay, Gandalf the
> > >Grey, and rest from journeys. For I am Saruman the Wise, Saruman Ring-maker,
> > >Saruman of Many Colours! "
> > >'I looked then and saw that his robes, which had seemed white, were not
> > > so, but were woven of all colours. and if he moved they shimmered and changed
> > >hue so that the eye was bewildered.
> > >"I liked white better," I said.
> > >"White! " he sneered. "It serves as a beginning. White cloth may be
> > >dyed. The white page can be overwritten; and the white light can be broken."
> > >"In which case it is no longer white," said I. "And he that breaks a
> > >thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom."
> > >
> > >It seemed as though Tolkien were... taking a dig at Isaac Newton and
> > >his experiments with light and prisms. And while Saruman is undoubtedly
> > >evil, what Newton did was right and proper, and added greatly to our
> > >understanding of light.
> And for that matter, Newton also used prisms to create white light, showing that
> what he had disassembled he could put back together. One up on Saruman there.
>
> [...]
> > Some have pointed out that, until not so far back as all that, there
> > were people among us who went from horses being the main means of
> > transportation to airplanes. JRRT was one of those people, and, like
> > many, longed for the Days of His Youth to return. Preferably without
> > WWI, of course.
> I wonder how the WWI battlefields would have inspired JRRT had he gone on with sequels.
> Apparently there is a substantial "red zone" in Northern France where people are not allowed to
> live or farm. Much of it is covered in woods of which he would at first approve, but a closer
> look shows the area to be toxic, with orders of magnitude more arsenic and aluminum perchlorate
> than people can tolerate. If any of those trees bear fruit, it is toxic. Reminds me of the unnatural
> plants in Morgul vale.
>
> Within the red zone is an area of about one hundred square kilometers where nothing
> but lichen will grow. Remediation processes are slow enough that one estimate
> was that this would take five hundred years to be habitable.
>
> Outside the red zone is a far larger yellow zone where farming is allowed.. But even here
> all is not well, and there are hot spots as bad as the red zone.
>
> And of course there's the unexploded ammunition problem. Vast amounts of this
> are recovered each year, and people still die from it. Not a problem for Mordor,
> I suppose.

Extremely interested people know that Tolkien served
in the First World War and his children served in the
Second. Evidently he'd seen desolation.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._R._R._Tolkien>

On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 5:51:32 PM UTC-4, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 2:32:56 PM UTC-4, William Hyde wrote:
> > On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 12:16:19 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
> > > On Wed, 24 May 2023 03:27:20 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
> > > <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> > >
> > > >On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 4:00:31?AM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:
> > > >> On Tuesday, May 23, 2023 at 7:52:29?PM UTC-6, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> > However, "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it,
> > > >> > doesn't go away." The movement of the Earth proceeds
> > > >> > without depending on your belief about it.
> > > >> That is true.
> > > >>
> > > >> But for the most part, he does not claim that the Earth moves in
> > > >> any way that is different from the way it actually does move.
> > > >>
> > > >> All he does is claim that the way scientists today think about these
> > > >> motions is wrong. For example, astronomers say the Earth rotates
> > > >> once every 23 hours, 56 minutes, and 4 seconds.
> > > >>
> > > >> Why not just once every 24 hours?
> > > >>
> > > >> Well, because counting rotation relative to the fixed stars lets one
> > > >> calculate centrifugal force correctly. And if one used rotation relative
> > > >> to the actual Sun instead of the mean sun, one would have to keep
> > > >> adding and then subtracting the correction for the Equation of Time.
> > > >>
> > > >> He doesn't know the math, and he doesn't do the math, so he
> > > >> has no sympathy for how compound motions need to be decomposed
> > > >> into their individual components to allow calculations to be manageable.
> > > >>
> > > >> Instead of calculating, we should just look up and be inspired by the
> > > >> awe and wonder of the Universe! Sorry, we only get to do that on our
> > > >> days off.
> > > >
> > > >For an on-topic observation... this passage from Tolkien's _The Lord
> > > >of the Rings_ had been disturbing to me.
> > > >
> > > >"Radagast the Brown! " laughed Saruman, and he no longer concealed his
> > > >scorn. "Radagast the Bird-tamer! Radagast the Simple! Radagast the Fool! Yet
> > > >he had just the wit to play the part that I set him. For you have come, and
> > > >that was all the purpose of my message. And here you will stay, Gandalf the
> > > >Grey, and rest from journeys. For I am Saruman the Wise, Saruman Ring-maker,
> > > >Saruman of Many Colours! "
> > > >'I looked then and saw that his robes, which had seemed white, were not
> > > > so, but were woven of all colours. and if he moved they shimmered and changed
> > > >hue so that the eye was bewildered.
> > > >"I liked white better," I said.
> > > >"White! " he sneered. "It serves as a beginning. White cloth may be
> > > >dyed. The white page can be overwritten; and the white light can be broken."
> > > >"In which case it is no longer white," said I. "And he that breaks a
> > > >thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom."
> > > >
> > > >It seemed as though Tolkien were... taking a dig at Isaac Newton and
> > > >his experiments with light and prisms. And while Saruman is undoubtedly
> > > >evil, what Newton did was right and proper, and added greatly to our
> > > >understanding of light.
> > And for that matter, Newton also used prisms to create white light, showing that
> > what he had disassembled he could put back together. One up on Saruman there.
> >
> > [...]
> > > Some have pointed out that, until not so far back as all that, there
> > > were people among us who went from horses being the main means of
> > > transportation to airplanes. JRRT was one of those people, and, like
> > > many, longed for the Days of His Youth to return. Preferably without
> > > WWI, of course.
> > I wonder how the WWI battlefields would have inspired JRRT had he gone on with sequels.
> > Apparently there is a substantial "red zone" in Northern France where people are not allowed to
> > live or farm. Much of it is covered in woods of which he would at first approve, but a closer
> > look shows the areato be toxic, with orders of magnitude more arsenic and aluminum perchlorate
> > than people can tolerate. If any of those trees bear fruit, it is toxic.. Reminds me of the unnatural
> > plants in Morgul vale.
> >
> > Within the red zone is an area of about one hundred square kilometers where nothing
> > but lichen will grow. Remediation processes are slow enough that one estimate
> > was that this would take five hundred years to be habitable.
> >
> > Outside the red zone is a far larger yellow zone where farming is allowed. But even here
> > all is not well, and there are hot spots as bad as the red zone.
> >
> > And of course there's the unexploded ammunition problem. Vast amounts of this
> > are recovered each year, and people still die from it. Not a problem for Mordor,
> > I suppose.
> >
> > William Hyde
> Details here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqwkVS3VzpA
>
> Most of the red zone looks pretty normal from a distance, but there is one
> area of a few dozen acres that's as bad as you say - it was used for some
> early remediation efforts and vast numbers of shells and other munitions
> were burned there, including poison gas shells.

Thanks.

Smaller than I thought then, good. But in that case I don't see why remediation will take
700 years. But from the video I gather that the place a gaz, in particular, is far more
poisoned than I thought, and the yellow zone seems to contain more bad areas than
I knew.

William Hyde

On 5/25/2023 2:22 PM, William Hyde wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 5:51:32 PM UTC-4, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 2:32:56 PM UTC-4, William Hyde wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 12:16:19 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 24 May 2023 03:27:20 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
>>>> <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 4:00:31?AM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 23, 2023 at 7:52:29?PM UTC-6, Robert Carnegie wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> However, "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it,
>>>>>>> doesn't go away." The movement of the Earth proceeds
>>>>>>> without depending on your belief about it.
>>>>>> That is true.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But for the most part, he does not claim that the Earth moves in
>>>>>> any way that is different from the way it actually does move.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> All he does is claim that the way scientists today think about these
>>>>>> motions is wrong. For example, astronomers say the Earth rotates
>>>>>> once every 23 hours, 56 minutes, and 4 seconds.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why not just once every 24 hours?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, because counting rotation relative to the fixed stars lets one
>>>>>> calculate centrifugal force correctly. And if one used rotation relative
>>>>>> to the actual Sun instead of the mean sun, one would have to keep
>>>>>> adding and then subtracting the correction for the Equation of Time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> He doesn't know the math, and he doesn't do the math, so he
>>>>>> has no sympathy for how compound motions need to be decomposed
>>>>>> into their individual components to allow calculations to be manageable.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Instead of calculating, we should just look up and be inspired by the
>>>>>> awe and wonder of the Universe! Sorry, we only get to do that on our
>>>>>> days off.
>>>>>
>>>>> For an on-topic observation... this passage from Tolkien's _The Lord
>>>>> of the Rings_ had been disturbing to me.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Radagast the Brown! " laughed Saruman, and he no longer concealed his
>>>>> scorn. "Radagast the Bird-tamer! Radagast the Simple! Radagast the Fool! Yet
>>>>> he had just the wit to play the part that I set him. For you have come, and
>>>>> that was all the purpose of my message. And here you will stay, Gandalf the
>>>>> Grey, and rest from journeys. For I am Saruman the Wise, Saruman Ring-maker,
>>>>> Saruman of Many Colours! "
>>>>> 'I looked then and saw that his robes, which had seemed white, were not
>>>>> so, but were woven of all colours. and if he moved they shimmered and changed
>>>>> hue so that the eye was bewildered.
>>>>> "I liked white better," I said.
>>>>> "White! " he sneered. "It serves as a beginning. White cloth may be
>>>>> dyed. The white page can be overwritten; and the white light can be broken."
>>>>> "In which case it is no longer white," said I. "And he that breaks a
>>>>> thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom."
>>>>>
>>>>> It seemed as though Tolkien were... taking a dig at Isaac Newton and
>>>>> his experiments with light and prisms. And while Saruman is undoubtedly
>>>>> evil, what Newton did was right and proper, and added greatly to our
>>>>> understanding of light.
>>> And for that matter, Newton also used prisms to create white light, showing that
>>> what he had disassembled he could put back together. One up on Saruman there.
>>>
>>> [...]
>>>> Some have pointed out that, until not so far back as all that, there
>>>> were people among us who went from horses being the main means of
>>>> transportation to airplanes. JRRT was one of those people, and, like
>>>> many, longed for the Days of His Youth to return. Preferably without
>>>> WWI, of course.
>>> I wonder how the WWI battlefields would have inspired JRRT had he gone on with sequels.
>>> Apparently there is a substantial "red zone" in Northern France where people are not allowed to
>>> live or farm. Much of it is covered in woods of which he would at first approve, but a closer
>>> look shows the areato be toxic, with orders of magnitude more arsenic and aluminum perchlorate
>>> than people can tolerate. If any of those trees bear fruit, it is toxic. Reminds me of the unnatural
>>> plants in Morgul vale.
>>>
>>> Within the red zone is an area of about one hundred square kilometers where nothing
>>> but lichen will grow. Remediation processes are slow enough that one estimate
>>> was that this would take five hundred years to be habitable.
>>>
>>> Outside the red zone is a far larger yellow zone where farming is allowed. But even here
>>> all is not well, and there are hot spots as bad as the red zone.
>>>
>>> And of course there's the unexploded ammunition problem. Vast amounts of this
>>> are recovered each year, and people still die from it. Not a problem for Mordor,
>>> I suppose.
>>>
>>> William Hyde
>> Details here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqwkVS3VzpA
>>
>> Most of the red zone looks pretty normal from a distance, but there is one
>> area of a few dozen acres that's as bad as you say - it was used for some
>> early remediation efforts and vast numbers of shells and other munitions
>> were burned there, including poison gas shells.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Smaller than I thought then, good. But in that case I don't see why remediation will take
> 700 years. But from the video I gather that the place a gaz, in particular, is far more
> poisoned than I thought, and the yellow zone seems to contain more bad areas than
> I knew.
>
> William Hyde

Sounds worse than Chernobyl.

Lynn

On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 10:11:46 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 5/25/2023 2:22 PM, William Hyde wrote:
> > On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 5:51:32 PM UTC-4, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 2:32:56 PM UTC-4, William Hyde wrote:
> >>> On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 12:16:19 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
> >>>> On Wed, 24 May 2023 03:27:20 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
> >>>> <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 4:00:31?AM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:
> >>>>>> On Tuesday, May 23, 2023 at 7:52:29?PM UTC-6, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> However, "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it,
> >>>>>>> doesn't go away." The movement of the Earth proceeds
> >>>>>>> without depending on your belief about it.
> >>>>>> That is true.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> But for the most part, he does not claim that the Earth moves in
> >>>>>> any way that is different from the way it actually does move.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> All he does is claim that the way scientists today think about these
> >>>>>> motions is wrong. For example, astronomers say the Earth rotates
> >>>>>> once every 23 hours, 56 minutes, and 4 seconds.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Why not just once every 24 hours?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Well, because counting rotation relative to the fixed stars lets one
> >>>>>> calculate centrifugal force correctly. And if one used rotation relative
> >>>>>> to the actual Sun instead of the mean sun, one would have to keep
> >>>>>> adding and then subtracting the correction for the Equation of Time.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> He doesn't know the math, and he doesn't do the math, so he
> >>>>>> has no sympathy for how compound motions need to be decomposed
> >>>>>> into their individual components to allow calculations to be manageable.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Instead of calculating, we should just look up and be inspired by the
> >>>>>> awe and wonder of the Universe! Sorry, we only get to do that on our
> >>>>>> days off.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> For an on-topic observation... this passage from Tolkien's _The Lord
> >>>>> of the Rings_ had been disturbing to me.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "Radagast the Brown! " laughed Saruman, and he no longer concealed his
> >>>>> scorn. "Radagast the Bird-tamer! Radagast the Simple! Radagast the Fool! Yet
> >>>>> he had just the wit to play the part that I set him. For you have come, and
> >>>>> that was all the purpose of my message. And here you will stay, Gandalf the
> >>>>> Grey, and rest from journeys. For I am Saruman the Wise, Saruman Ring-maker,
> >>>>> Saruman of Many Colours! "
> >>>>> 'I looked then and saw that his robes, which had seemed white, were not
> >>>>> so, but were woven of all colours. and if he moved they shimmered and changed
> >>>>> hue so that the eye was bewildered.
> >>>>> "I liked white better," I said.
> >>>>> "White! " he sneered. "It serves as a beginning. White cloth may be
> >>>>> dyed. The white page can be overwritten; and the white light can be broken."
> >>>>> "In which case it is no longer white," said I. "And he that breaks a
> >>>>> thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom."
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It seemed as though Tolkien were... taking a dig at Isaac Newton and
> >>>>> his experiments with light and prisms. And while Saruman is undoubtedly
> >>>>> evil, what Newton did was right and proper, and added greatly to our
> >>>>> understanding of light.
> >>> And for that matter, Newton also used prisms to create white light, showing that
> >>> what he had disassembled he could put back together. One up on Saruman there.
> >>>
> >>> [...]
> >>>> Some have pointed out that, until not so far back as all that, there
> >>>> were people among us who went from horses being the main means of
> >>>> transportation to airplanes. JRRT was one of those people, and, like
> >>>> many, longed for the Days of His Youth to return. Preferably without
> >>>> WWI, of course.
> >>> I wonder how the WWI battlefields would have inspired JRRT had he gone on with sequels.
> >>> Apparently there is a substantial "red zone" in Northern France where people are not allowed to
> >>> live or farm. Much of it is covered in woods of which he would at first approve, but a closer
> >>> look shows the areato be toxic, with orders of magnitude more arsenic and aluminum perchlorate
> >>> than people can tolerate. If any of those trees bear fruit, it is toxic. Reminds me of the unnatural
> >>> plants in Morgul vale.
> >>>
> >>> Within the red zone is an area of about one hundred square kilometers where nothing
> >>> but lichen will grow. Remediation processes are slow enough that one estimate
> >>> was that this would take five hundred years to be habitable.
> >>>
> >>> Outside the red zone is a far larger yellow zone where farming is allowed. But even here
> >>> all is not well, and there are hot spots as bad as the red zone.
> >>>
> >>> And of course there's the unexploded ammunition problem. Vast amounts of this
> >>> are recovered each year, and people still die from it. Not a problem for Mordor,
> >>> I suppose.
> >>>
> >>> William Hyde
> >> Details here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqwkVS3VzpA
> >>
> >> Most of the red zone looks pretty normal from a distance, but there is one
> >> area of a few dozen acres that's as bad as you say - it was used for some
> >> early remediation efforts and vast numbers of shells and other munitions
> >> were burned there, including poison gas shells.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Smaller than I thought then, good. But in that case I don't see why remediation will take
> > 700 years. But from the video I gather that the place a gaz, in particular, is far more
> > poisoned than I thought, and the yellow zone seems to contain more bad areas than
> > I knew.
> >
> > William Hyde
> Sounds worse than Chernobyl.

I look at the pockmarked fields of the Donbas, and wonder how long it will be before
they're safe to farm.

Its not the shells that exploded, producing a visible crater that's the problem. Its the
anti-tank and personnel mines, along with the shells that buried themselves without
exploding.

This is a second layer for the area - much of it saw heavy action during WW2.
pt

On Thu, 25 May 2023 21:10:40 -0500, Lynn McGuire
<lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

>> Smaller than I thought then, good. But in that case I don't see why remediation will take
>> 700 years. But from the video I gather that the place a gaz, in particular, is far more
>> poisoned than I thought, and the yellow zone seems to contain more bad areas than
>> I knew.
>>
>> William Hyde
>
>Sounds worse than Chernobyl.

Worse than a nuclear plant just inside the Russia/Belarus - Ukrainian
border? Wow that's pretty bad...

The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> writes:
>On Thu, 25 May 2023 21:10:40 -0500, Lynn McGuire
><lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> Smaller than I thought then, good. But in that case I don't see why remediation will take
>>> 700 years. But from the video I gather that the place a gaz, in particular, is far more
>>> poisoned than I thought, and the yellow zone seems to contain more bad areas than
>>> I knew.
>>>
>>> William Hyde
>>
>>Sounds worse than Chernobyl.
>
>Worse than a nuclear plant just inside the Russia/Belarus - Ukrainian
>border? Wow that's pretty bad...

As I understand it the biggest problem in Northern France is the
tens of thousands of unexploded shells (both chemical and explosive)
still buried. At the current rate of removal (100's per year), it
will take 700 years to completely clear them.

On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 12:31:12 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> The Horny Goat <lcr...@home.ca> writes:
> >On Thu, 25 May 2023 21:10:40 -0500, Lynn McGuire
> ><lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>> Smaller than I thought then, good. But in that case I don't see why remediation will take
> >>> 700 years. But from the video I gather that the place a gaz, in particular, is far more
> >>> poisoned than I thought, and the yellow zone seems to contain more bad areas than
> >>> I knew.
> >>>
> >>> William Hyde
> >>
> >>Sounds worse than Chernobyl.
> >
> >Worse than a nuclear plant just inside the Russia/Belarus - Ukrainian
> >border? Wow that's pretty bad...
> As I understand it the biggest problem in Northern France is the
> tens of thousands of unexploded shells (both chemical and explosive)
> still buried. At the current rate of removal (100's per year), it
> will take 700 years to completely clear them.

The "Iron Harvest". Over a thousand tons per year in France and Belgium.

Apparently shells from WWI can still explode, and with detonators in a deteriorated state they
can be set off by a mild bump. Gas shells may well be a worse problem, though.

Apparently in Germany fifteen pieces of unexploded ordinance are found per day, on average.

It seems we humans can create quite a mess, even without nukes.

William Hyde

On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 2:07:31 PM UTC-4, William Hyde wrote:
> On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 12:31:12 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> > The Horny Goat <lcr...@home.ca> writes:
> > >On Thu, 25 May 2023 21:10:40 -0500, Lynn McGuire
> > ><lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >>> Smaller than I thought then, good. But in that case I don't see why remediation will take
> > >>> 700 years. But from the video I gather that the place a gaz, in particular, is far more
> > >>> poisoned than I thought, and the yellow zone seems to contain more bad areas than
> > >>> I knew.
> > >>>
> > >>> William Hyde
> > >>
> > >>Sounds worse than Chernobyl.
> > >
> > >Worse than a nuclear plant just inside the Russia/Belarus - Ukrainian
> > >border? Wow that's pretty bad...
> > As I understand it the biggest problem in Northern France is the
> > tens of thousands of unexploded shells (both chemical and explosive)
> > still buried. At the current rate of removal (100's per year), it
> > will take 700 years to completely clear them.
> The "Iron Harvest". Over a thousand tons per year in France and Belgium.
>
> Apparently shells from WWI can still explode, and with detonators in a deteriorated state they
> can be set off by a mild bump. Gas shells may well be a worse problem, though.
>
> Apparently in Germany fifteen pieces of unexploded ordinance are found per day, on average.
>
> It seems we humans can create quite a mess, even without nukes.

There's also several kilotons of amminol still under Messines Ridge.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmQQhItkvlk

Pt