"Saving Proxima" by Travis S. Taylor and Les Johnson
https://www.amazon.com/Saving-Proxima-Travis-S-Taylor/dp/1982192054/

A standalone science fiction book, hopefully with a sequel or two
released some day. I read the well printed and well bound MMPB
published by Baen in 2022.

In the year 2072, a old school radio broadcast is received at the lunar
farside radio observatory from the direction of Proxima Centauri. The
radio broadcast is found to be an uncompressed and unencrypted form of
fax pictures of humans on a planet similar to Earth. Earth sends back a
radio communication using a high power radio telescope and nine years
later, gets a reply. Then another radio communique shows up and says
that they are dying out due to 99% of the babies born are male. Earth
builds a near light speed spaceship designed for 25 crew members with a
first generation cryosleep system with 100 million human embryos. Forty
people make the ten year journey that is fraught with sabotage.

The book goes great until they arrive then the ending is rushed. And
left open for a sequel that does not appear to be on the horizon.

Les Johnson has a website at:
https://twitter.com/LesAuthor

My rating: 4.4 out of 5 stars
Amazon rating: 4.2 out of 5 stars (152 reviews)

Lynn

On Wednesday, 14 June 2023 at 20:19:29 UTC+1, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> "Saving Proxima" by Travis S. Taylor and Les Johnson
> https://www.amazon.com/Saving-Proxima-Travis-S-Taylor/dp/1982192054/
>
> A standalone science fiction book, hopefully with a sequel or two
> released some day. I read the well printed and well bound MMPB
> published by Baen in 2022.
>
> In the year 2072, a old school radio broadcast is received at the lunar
> farside radio observatory from the direction of Proxima Centauri. The
> radio broadcast is found to be an uncompressed and unencrypted form of
> fax pictures of humans on a planet similar to Earth. Earth sends back a
> radio communication using a high power radio telescope and nine years
> later, gets a reply. Then another radio communique shows up and says
> that they are dying out due to 99% of the babies born are male. Earth
> builds a near light speed spaceship designed for 25 crew members with a
> first generation cryosleep system with 100 million human embryos. Forty
> people make the ten year journey that is fraught with sabotage.
>
> The book goes great until they arrive then the ending is rushed. And
> left open for a sequel that does not appear to be on the horizon.
>
> Les Johnson has a website at:
> https://twitter.com/LesAuthor

"Assimilating Our Culture, That's What They're Doing!"
is one thought.

<https://hitchhikers.fandom.com/wiki/Golgafrinchan_Ark_Fleet_Ship_B>
is another, and specifically what happened to existing
Earth species after the Golgafrinchans arrived.

And Star Trek's
<https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Wink_of_an_Eye_%28episode%29>
had "The planet Scalos needs horny Earthmen".

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carry_On_Up_the_Jungle>
likewise - two African tribes covet the English explorers.
But one of the tribes is only hungry. Which is where I started.

On Wednesday, June 14, 2023 at 3:19:29 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> "Saving Proxima" by Travis S. Taylor and Les Johnson
> https://www.amazon.com/Saving-Proxima-Travis-S-Taylor/dp/1982192054/
>
> A standalone science fiction book, hopefully with a sequel or two
> released some day. I read the well printed and well bound MMPB
> published by Baen in 2022.
>
> In the year 2072, a old school radio broadcast is received at the lunar
> farside radio observatory from the direction of Proxima Centauri. The
> radio broadcast is found to be an uncompressed and unencrypted form of
> fax pictures of humans on a planet similar to Earth. Earth sends back a
> radio communication using a high power radio telescope and nine years
> later, gets a reply. Then another radio communique shows up and says
> that they are dying out due to 99% of the babies born are male. Earth
> builds a near light speed spaceship designed for 25 crew members with a
> first generation cryosleep system with 100 million human embryos. Forty
> people make the ten year journey that is fraught with sabotage.

The logistics of collecting 100 million frozen embryos would be challenging..

....not to mention the ethical aspects.

pt

On 6/15/2023 7:55 AM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 14, 2023 at 3:19:29 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> "Saving Proxima" by Travis S. Taylor and Les Johnson
>> https://www.amazon.com/Saving-Proxima-Travis-S-Taylor/dp/1982192054/
>>
>> A standalone science fiction book, hopefully with a sequel or two
>> released some day. I read the well printed and well bound MMPB
>> published by Baen in 2022.
>>
>> In the year 2072, a old school radio broadcast is received at the lunar
>> farside radio observatory from the direction of Proxima Centauri. The
>> radio broadcast is found to be an uncompressed and unencrypted form of
>> fax pictures of humans on a planet similar to Earth. Earth sends back a
>> radio communication using a high power radio telescope and nine years
>> later, gets a reply. Then another radio communique shows up and says
>> that they are dying out due to 99% of the babies born are male. Earth
>> builds a near light speed spaceship designed for 25 crew members with a
>> first generation cryosleep system with 100 million human embryos. Forty
>> people make the ten year journey that is fraught with sabotage.
>
> The logistics of collecting 100 million frozen embryos would be challenging.
>
> ...not to mention the ethical aspects.
>
> pt

2072 is a different world from ours.

However, you now have me doubting that number. I will check it later.

Building two starships with nuclear reactors and laser drives in orbit
around the Moon would be challenging also. Big huge spaceships.

Lynn

On Thursday, 15 June 2023 at 13:55:22 UTC+1, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 14, 2023 at 3:19:29 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> > "Saving Proxima" by Travis S. Taylor and Les Johnson
> > https://www.amazon.com/Saving-Proxima-Travis-S-Taylor/dp/1982192054/
> >
> > A standalone science fiction book, hopefully with a sequel or two
> > released some day. I read the well printed and well bound MMPB
> > published by Baen in 2022.
> >
> > In the year 2072, a old school radio broadcast is received at the lunar
> > farside radio observatory from the direction of Proxima Centauri. The
> > radio broadcast is found to be an uncompressed and unencrypted form of
> > fax pictures of humans on a planet similar to Earth. Earth sends back a
> > radio communication using a high power radio telescope and nine years
> > later, gets a reply. Then another radio communique shows up and says
> > that they are dying out due to 99% of the babies born are male. Earth
> > builds a near light speed spaceship designed for 25 crew members with a
> > first generation cryosleep system with 100 million human embryos. Forty
> > people make the ten year journey that is fraught with sabotage.
> The logistics of collecting 100 million frozen embryos would be challenging.
>
> ...not to mention the ethical aspects.

How many do we have on ice at the moment? I think
that in practice there are a lot of spares. And they have
a use-by date, too - here at least (UK / Scotland).
And they're quite small.

On Wednesday, June 14, 2023 at 3:19:29 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> "Saving Proxima" by Travis S. Taylor and Les Johnson
> https://www.amazon.com/Saving-Proxima-Travis-S-Taylor/dp/1982192054/
>
> A standalone science fiction book, hopefully with a sequel or two
> released some day. I read the well printed and well bound MMPB
> published by Baen in 2022.
>
> In the year 2072, a old school radio broadcast is received at the lunar
> farside radio observatory from the direction of Proxima Centauri. The
> radio broadcast is found to be an uncompressed and unencrypted form of
> fax pictures of humans on a planet similar to Earth.

No doubt this will soon be on someones "100 best sf novels" list.

I dislike it already.

William Hyde

On Wednesday, June 14, 2023 at 1:19:29 PM UTC-6, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> Then another radio communique shows up and says
> that they are dying out due to 99% of the babies born are male. Earth
> builds a near light speed spaceship designed for 25 crew members with a
> first generation cryosleep system with 100 million human embryos.

It is plausible to me that the Earth government could have raided the fertility
clinics, and the advanced technology of the future might support a larger
population on Earth (so more fertility clinics). Perhaps the entire atmosphere
of Jupiter was turned into fertilizer; and the stony asteroids were ground up
to provide arable land.

I suppose the book *could* explain the aliens as having been descended from,
say, a colony expedition mounted by ancient Atlantis, or a spare human population
established by kindly aliens in the distant past.

Otherwise, if they are independently evolved intelligent life, that they could
interbreed with humans is, of course, utterly preposterous - even if that sort
of thing _was_ a standard convention of old-school science fiction.

John Savard

On Thursday, June 15, 2023 at 4:22:33 PM UTC-6, William Hyde wrote:

> No doubt this will soon be on someones "100 best sf novels" list.
>
> I dislike it already.

Given the description, I suspect it of a glaring scientific implausibility.
I dislike that.

But otherwise, this _could_ be a good novel. Instead of the old cliche
of aliens coming to Earth and kidnapping our women, here we have it
turned on its head... they have a similar problem, but instead of an
attack, Earth moves to help them, through voluntary help and cooperation.

I mean, there is an ethical issue of deciding these embryos fate for them
like that, but I'm willing to set aside nitpicks if the story is a good one..

However, there is enough in the description to indeed make me suspect
this is not a book that will achieve the first rank in science fiction. It's not
really trying to address any Big Questions, it's just a potboiler - will they
stop the saboteurs in time and so on.

John Savard

On Sat, 17 Jun 2023 20:13:59 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
<jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

>On Wednesday, June 14, 2023 at 1:19:29?PM UTC-6, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> Then another radio communique shows up and says
>> that they are dying out due to 99% of the babies born are male. Earth
>> builds a near light speed spaceship designed for 25 crew members with a
>> first generation cryosleep system with 100 million human embryos.
>
>It is plausible to me that the Earth government could have raided the fertility
>clinics, and the advanced technology of the future might support a larger
>population on Earth (so more fertility clinics). Perhaps the entire atmosphere
>of Jupiter was turned into fertilizer; and the stony asteroids were ground up
>to provide arable land.
>
>I suppose the book *could* explain the aliens as having been descended from,
>say, a colony expedition mounted by ancient Atlantis, or a spare human population
>established by kindly aliens in the distant past.
>
>Otherwise, if they are independently evolved intelligent life, that they could
>interbreed with humans is, of course, utterly preposterous - even if that sort
>of thing _was_ a standard convention of old-school science fiction.

Of course it is.

And we know this because the number of independently evolved
intelligent species we have encounteres is ... exactly 0.

So certainly none that we have encountered so far can do so.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

On Monday, June 19, 2023 at 2:03:29 AM UTC+10, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Jun 2023 20:13:59 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
> <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> >On Wednesday, June 14, 2023 at 1:19:29?PM UTC-6, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> >> Then another radio communique shows up and says
> >> that they are dying out due to 99% of the babies born are male. Earth
> >> builds a near light speed spaceship designed for 25 crew members with a
> >> first generation cryosleep system with 100 million human embryos.
> >
> >It is plausible to me that the Earth government could have raided the fertility
> >clinics, and the advanced technology of the future might support a larger
> >population on Earth (so more fertility clinics). Perhaps the entire atmosphere
> >of Jupiter was turned into fertilizer; and the stony asteroids were ground up
> >to provide arable land.
> >
> >I suppose the book *could* explain the aliens as having been descended from,
> >say, a colony expedition mounted by ancient Atlantis, or a spare human population
> >established by kindly aliens in the distant past.
> >
> >Otherwise, if they are independently evolved intelligent life, that they could
> >interbreed with humans is, of course, utterly preposterous - even if that sort
> >of thing _was_ a standard convention of old-school science fiction.
> Of course it is.
>
> And we know this because the number of independently evolved
> intelligent species we have encounteres is ... exactly 0.
>
> So certainly none that we have encountered so far can do so.

Are you aware at all of how genetics works?

On Sunday, June 18, 2023 at 10:03:29 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Jun 2023 20:13:59 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
> <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

> >Otherwise, if they are independently evolved intelligent life, that they could
> >interbreed with humans is, of course, utterly preposterous - even if that sort
> >of thing _was_ a standard convention of old-school science fiction.

> Of course it is.
>
> And we know this because the number of independently evolved
> intelligent species we have encounteres is ... exactly 0.

Surely there are other ways of having enough information to draw
conclusions than direct experience?

After all, we've studied the genetics of many forms of life on Earth.

Even chimpanzees, which are very closely related to humans, have many
translocations and inversions in their gene sequence compared to ours.

So if humans had evolved twice on Earth, because of two separate areas having
similar environmental conditions that drove evolution in the same direction,
towards hairless intelligent bipeds, from the common ancestor of ourselves and
chimpanzees, _already_ the probability of the two populations being able to
interbreed, assuming complete isolation for two million years or so, would be
vanishingly small.

Of course, I am "assuming" that complex life on Earth, and on other worlds,
developed through completely natural processes, involving evolution by
natural selection. No seeding by advanced aliens, and no theistic concepts of
the origin of life. But surely rejecting _that_ kind of stuff out of hand is
completely reasonable.

John Savard

On 6/17/2023 10:13 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 14, 2023 at 1:19:29 PM UTC-6, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> Then another radio communique shows up and says
>> that they are dying out due to 99% of the babies born are male. Earth
>> builds a near light speed spaceship designed for 25 crew members with a
>> first generation cryosleep system with 100 million human embryos.
>
> It is plausible to me that the Earth government could have raided the fertility
> clinics, and the advanced technology of the future might support a larger
> population on Earth (so more fertility clinics). Perhaps the entire atmosphere
> of Jupiter was turned into fertilizer; and the stony asteroids were ground up
> to provide arable land.
>
> I suppose the book *could* explain the aliens as having been descended from,
> say, a colony expedition mounted by ancient Atlantis, or a spare human population
> established by kindly aliens in the distant past.
>
> Otherwise, if they are independently evolved intelligent life, that they could
> interbreed with humans is, of course, utterly preposterous - even if that sort
> of thing _was_ a standard convention of old-school science fiction.
>
> John Savard

51,000 years ago, these space aliens ...

Lynn

On Sunday, June 18, 2023 at 10:00:46 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 6/17/2023 10:13 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
> > On Wednesday, June 14, 2023 at 1:19:29 PM UTC-6, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> >> Then another radio communique shows up and says
> >> that they are dying out due to 99% of the babies born are male. Earth
> >> builds a near light speed spaceship designed for 25 crew members with a
> >> first generation cryosleep system with 100 million human embryos.
> >
> > It is plausible to me that the Earth government could have raided the fertility
> > clinics, and the advanced technology of the future might support a larger
> > population on Earth (so more fertility clinics). Perhaps the entire atmosphere
> > of Jupiter was turned into fertilizer; and the stony asteroids were ground up
> > to provide arable land.
> >
> > I suppose the book *could* explain the aliens as having been descended from,
> > say, a colony expedition mounted by ancient Atlantis, or a spare human population
> > established by kindly aliens in the distant past.
> >
> > Otherwise, if they are independently evolved intelligent life, that they could
> > interbreed with humans is, of course, utterly preposterous - even if that sort
> > of thing _was_ a standard convention of old-school science fiction.
> >
> > John Savard
> 51,000 years ago, these space aliens ...

Niven got this wrong too, with the Pak,
But that was 50 years ago.

Pt

In article <32d9fc35-7800-4c71-899a-a670db0f44a4n@googlegroups.com>,
pete...@gmail.com <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Sunday, June 18, 2023 at 10:00:46 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> On 6/17/2023 10:13 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>> > On Wednesday, June 14, 2023 at 1:19:29 PM UTC-6, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> >> Then another radio communique shows up and says
>> >> that they are dying out due to 99% of the babies born are male. Earth
>> >> builds a near light speed spaceship designed for 25 crew members with a
>> >> first generation cryosleep system with 100 million human embryos.
>> >
>> > It is plausible to me that the Earth government could have raided
>the fertility
>> > clinics, and the advanced technology of the future might support a larger
>> > population on Earth (so more fertility clinics). Perhaps the entire
>atmosphere
>> > of Jupiter was turned into fertilizer; and the stony asteroids were
>ground up
>> > to provide arable land.
>> >
>> > I suppose the book *could* explain the aliens as having been
>descended from,
>> > say, a colony expedition mounted by ancient Atlantis, or a spare
>human population
>> > established by kindly aliens in the distant past.
>> >
>> > Otherwise, if they are independently evolved intelligent life, that
>they could
>> > interbreed with humans is, of course, utterly preposterous - even
>if that sort
>> > of thing _was_ a standard convention of old-school science fiction.
>> >
>> > John Savard
>> 51,000 years ago, these space aliens ...
>
>Niven got this wrong too, with the Pak,
>But that was 50 years ago.

As did Le Guin. It was indefensible bullshit then, too.

--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

On Sunday, June 18, 2023 at 10:20:33 PM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <32d9fc35-7800-4c71...@googlegroups.com>,
> pete...@gmail.com <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Sunday, June 18, 2023 at 10:00:46 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> >> On 6/17/2023 10:13 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
> >> > On Wednesday, June 14, 2023 at 1:19:29 PM UTC-6, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> >> >> Then another radio communique shows up and says
> >> >> that they are dying out due to 99% of the babies born are male. Earth
> >> >> builds a near light speed spaceship designed for 25 crew members with a
> >> >> first generation cryosleep system with 100 million human embryos.
> >> >
> >> > It is plausible to me that the Earth government could have raided
> >the fertility
> >> > clinics, and the advanced technology of the future might support a larger
> >> > population on Earth (so more fertility clinics). Perhaps the entire
> >atmosphere
> >> > of Jupiter was turned into fertilizer; and the stony asteroids were
> >ground up
> >> > to provide arable land.
> >> >
> >> > I suppose the book *could* explain the aliens as having been
> >descended from,
> >> > say, a colony expedition mounted by ancient Atlantis, or a spare
> >human population
> >> > established by kindly aliens in the distant past.
> >> >
> >> > Otherwise, if they are independently evolved intelligent life, that
> >they could
> >> > interbreed with humans is, of course, utterly preposterous - even
> >if that sort
> >> > of thing _was_ a standard convention of old-school science fiction.
> >> >
> >> > John Savard
> >> 51,000 years ago, these space aliens ...
> >
> >Niven got this wrong too, with the Pak,
> >But that was 50 years ago.
> As did Le Guin. It was indefensible bullshit then, too.

Stross, MacLeod, and Vance have universes in which people were taken from
earth and settled elsewhere, aided by time travel in Stross' case.

It's also a classic SF error to have habitable planets orbiting unsuitable
stars, so much so that more than fifty years ago Poul Anderson used this
convention, with a twist, in a Falkayn story.

I'm not going to read the book, but I speculate that the authors are trying to
pull a Chambers, and put as many egregious errors per page as they can.

William Hyde

In article <5411060c-b52f-45b3-bbf1-68f626f380d4n@googlegroups.com>,
William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Sunday, June 18, 2023 at 10:20:33 PM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
>> In article <32d9fc35-7800-4c71...@googlegroups.com>,
>> pete...@gmail.com <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >On Sunday, June 18, 2023 at 10:00:46 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> >> On 6/17/2023 10:13 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>> >> > On Wednesday, June 14, 2023 at 1:19:29 PM UTC-6, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> >> >> Then another radio communique shows up and says
>> >> >> that they are dying out due to 99% of the babies born are male. Earth
>> >> >> builds a near light speed spaceship designed for 25 crew
>members with a
>> >> >> first generation cryosleep system with 100 million human embryos.
>> >> >
>> >> > It is plausible to me that the Earth government could have raided
>> >the fertility
>> >> > clinics, and the advanced technology of the future might support
>a larger
>> >> > population on Earth (so more fertility clinics). Perhaps the entire
>> >atmosphere
>> >> > of Jupiter was turned into fertilizer; and the stony asteroids were
>> >ground up
>> >> > to provide arable land.
>> >> >
>> >> > I suppose the book *could* explain the aliens as having been
>> >descended from,
>> >> > say, a colony expedition mounted by ancient Atlantis, or a spare
>> >human population
>> >> > established by kindly aliens in the distant past.
>> >> >
>> >> > Otherwise, if they are independently evolved intelligent life, that
>> >they could
>> >> > interbreed with humans is, of course, utterly preposterous - even
>> >if that sort
>> >> > of thing _was_ a standard convention of old-school science fiction.
>> >> >
>> >> > John Savard
>> >> 51,000 years ago, these space aliens ...
>> >
>> >Niven got this wrong too, with the Pak,
>> >But that was 50 years ago.
>> As did Le Guin. It was indefensible bullshit then, too.
>
>Stross, MacLeod, and Vance have universes in which people were taken from
>earth and settled elsewhere, aided by time travel in Stross' case.

I don't have a problem with humans transported in the past to other
worlds, as long as they evolved on Earth. But Niven and Le Guin had
humans as transplanted aliens who just happened to look like they
were a side-branch of a family whose fossils go back to the Cambrian.

Traveller had very old lineages of humans kidnapped and transported
by Grandfather. I don't think Classic Traveller invested a lot of
time thinking about the implications of modern humans not existing
yet when Grandfather swung by 300,000 years ago. Those archaic
lineages would have evolved in circumstances very different from
any on Earth.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

On Monday, 19 June 2023 at 14:36:34 UTC+1, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <5411060c-b52f-45b3...@googlegroups.com>,
> William Hyde <wthyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Sunday, June 18, 2023 at 10:20:33 PM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
> >> In article <32d9fc35-7800-4c71...@googlegroups.com>,
> >> pete...@gmail.com <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >On Sunday, June 18, 2023 at 10:00:46 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> >> >> On 6/17/2023 10:13 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
> >> >> > On Wednesday, June 14, 2023 at 1:19:29 PM UTC-6, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> >> >> >> Then another radio communique shows up and says
> >> >> >> that they are dying out due to 99% of the babies born are male. Earth
> >> >> >> builds a near light speed spaceship designed for 25 crew
> >members with a
> >> >> >> first generation cryosleep system with 100 million human embryos..
> >> >> >
> >> >> > It is plausible to me that the Earth government could have raided
> >> >the fertility
> >> >> > clinics, and the advanced technology of the future might support
> >a larger
> >> >> > population on Earth (so more fertility clinics). Perhaps the entire
> >> >atmosphere
> >> >> > of Jupiter was turned into fertilizer; and the stony asteroids were
> >> >ground up
> >> >> > to provide arable land.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I suppose the book *could* explain the aliens as having been
> >> >descended from,
> >> >> > say, a colony expedition mounted by ancient Atlantis, or a spare
> >> >human population
> >> >> > established by kindly aliens in the distant past.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Otherwise, if they are independently evolved intelligent life, that
> >> >they could
> >> >> > interbreed with humans is, of course, utterly preposterous - even
> >> >if that sort
> >> >> > of thing _was_ a standard convention of old-school science fiction.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > John Savard
> >> >> 51,000 years ago, these space aliens ...
> >> >
> >> >Niven got this wrong too, with the Pak,
> >> >But that was 50 years ago.
> >> As did Le Guin. It was indefensible bullshit then, too.
> >
> >Stross, MacLeod, and Vance have universes in which people were taken from
> >earth and settled elsewhere, aided by time travel in Stross' case.
> I don't have a problem with humans transported in the past to other
> worlds, as long as they evolved on Earth. But Niven and Le Guin had
> humans as transplanted aliens who just happened to look like they
> were a side-branch of a family whose fossils go back to the Cambrian.

Douglas Adams's hitchhikers were like that, too. However, that
universe has a lot of aliens who look human but probably aren't
related. And the Earth was artificial, anyway. Just ten million years
old, I think.

> Traveller had very old lineages of humans kidnapped and transported
> by Grandfather. I don't think Classic Traveller invested a lot of
> time thinking about the implications of modern humans not existing
> yet when Grandfather swung by 300,000 years ago. Those archaic
> lineages would have evolved in circumstances very different from
> any on Earth.

I think there were some "early modern" humans then.
And most people today outside Africa are part Neanderthal.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jebel_Irhoud>
is something I'm evidently putting a lot of weight on.

Most past and present species of life on Earth, though,
humans can't breed with at all - as far as we know,
but generally, it's illegal to try. (I don't want to hear
stories about this.)

My point is that without life spreading between planets,
aliens will be more different from us biologically than
our livestock is.

We let Star Trek do it, though.

On Monday, June 19, 2023 at 9:36:34 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <5411060c-b52f-45b3...@googlegroups.com>,
> William Hyde <wthyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Sunday, June 18, 2023 at 10:20:33 PM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
> >> In article <32d9fc35-7800-4c71...@googlegroups.com>,
> >> pete...@gmail.com <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >On Sunday, June 18, 2023 at 10:00:46 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> >> >> On 6/17/2023 10:13 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
> >> >> > On Wednesday, June 14, 2023 at 1:19:29 PM UTC-6, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> >> >> >> Then another radio communique shows up and says
> >> >> >> that they are dying out due to 99% of the babies born are male. Earth
> >> >> >> builds a near light speed spaceship designed for 25 crew
> >members with a
> >> >> >> first generation cryosleep system with 100 million human embryos..
> >> >> >
> >> >> > It is plausible to me that the Earth government could have raided
> >> >the fertility
> >> >> > clinics, and the advanced technology of the future might support
> >a larger
> >> >> > population on Earth (so more fertility clinics). Perhaps the entire
> >> >atmosphere
> >> >> > of Jupiter was turned into fertilizer; and the stony asteroids were
> >> >ground up
> >> >> > to provide arable land.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I suppose the book *could* explain the aliens as having been
> >> >descended from,
> >> >> > say, a colony expedition mounted by ancient Atlantis, or a spare
> >> >human population
> >> >> > established by kindly aliens in the distant past.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Otherwise, if they are independently evolved intelligent life, that
> >> >they could
> >> >> > interbreed with humans is, of course, utterly preposterous - even
> >> >if that sort
> >> >> > of thing _was_ a standard convention of old-school science fiction.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > John Savard
> >> >> 51,000 years ago, these space aliens ...
> >> >
> >> >Niven got this wrong too, with the Pak,
> >> >But that was 50 years ago.
> >> As did Le Guin. It was indefensible bullshit then, too.
> >
> >Stross, MacLeod, and Vance have universes in which people were taken from
> >earth and settled elsewhere, aided by time travel in Stross' case.
> I don't have a problem with humans transported in the past to other
> worlds, as long as they evolved on Earth. But Niven and Le Guin had
> humans as transplanted aliens who just happened to look like they
> were a side-branch of a family whose fossils go back to the Cambrian.
>
> Traveller had very old lineages of humans kidnapped and transported
> by Grandfather. I don't think Classic Traveller invested a lot of
> time thinking about the implications of modern humans not existing
> yet when Grandfather swung by 300,000 years ago. Those archaic
> lineages would have evolved in circumstances very different from
> any on Earth.

Our genetic and biochemical similarity to all other life on Earth makes
the 'transplant' idea a non-starter.

The only way to make it work would be to have some hidden FTL capable
power spend a hell of a lot of time transplanting all kinds of species between
star systems, on an ongoing basis, so that they all had the same biomes.

pt

In article <1841fd12-63d7-4d36-9547-99794cf88b2bn@googlegroups.com>,
Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
>On Monday, 19 June 2023 at 14:36:34 UTC+1, James Nicoll wrote:
>> In article <5411060c-b52f-45b3...@googlegroups.com>,
>> William Hyde <wthyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >On Sunday, June 18, 2023 at 10:20:33 PM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
>> >> In article <32d9fc35-7800-4c71...@googlegroups.com>,
>> >> pete...@gmail.com <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >On Sunday, June 18, 2023 at 10:00:46 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> >> >> On 6/17/2023 10:13 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>> >> >> > On Wednesday, June 14, 2023 at 1:19:29 PM UTC-6, Lynn
>McGuire wrote:
>> >> >> >> Then another radio communique shows up and says
>> >> >> >> that they are dying out due to 99% of the babies born are
>male. Earth
>> >> >> >> builds a near light speed spaceship designed for 25 crew
>> >members with a
>> >> >> >> first generation cryosleep system with 100 million human embryos.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > It is plausible to me that the Earth government could have raided
>> >> >the fertility
>> >> >> > clinics, and the advanced technology of the future might support
>> >a larger
>> >> >> > population on Earth (so more fertility clinics). Perhaps the entire
>> >> >atmosphere
>> >> >> > of Jupiter was turned into fertilizer; and the stony asteroids were
>> >> >ground up
>> >> >> > to provide arable land.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > I suppose the book *could* explain the aliens as having been
>> >> >descended from,
>> >> >> > say, a colony expedition mounted by ancient Atlantis, or a spare
>> >> >human population
>> >> >> > established by kindly aliens in the distant past.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Otherwise, if they are independently evolved intelligent life, that
>> >> >they could
>> >> >> > interbreed with humans is, of course, utterly preposterous - even
>> >> >if that sort
>> >> >> > of thing _was_ a standard convention of old-school science fiction.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > John Savard
>> >> >> 51,000 years ago, these space aliens ...
>> >> >
>> >> >Niven got this wrong too, with the Pak,
>> >> >But that was 50 years ago.
>> >> As did Le Guin. It was indefensible bullshit then, too.
>> >
>> >Stross, MacLeod, and Vance have universes in which people were taken from
>> >earth and settled elsewhere, aided by time travel in Stross' case.
>> I don't have a problem with humans transported in the past to other
>> worlds, as long as they evolved on Earth. But Niven and Le Guin had
>> humans as transplanted aliens who just happened to look like they
>> were a side-branch of a family whose fossils go back to the Cambrian.
>
>Douglas Adams's hitchhikers were like that, too. However, that
>universe has a lot of aliens who look human but probably aren't
>related. And the Earth was artificial, anyway. Just ten million years
>old, I think.

OK, artificial worlds get a pass, as compatability can be designed in.

When I ran the Tenchi Miyu RPG, my head canon included the idea that
the "Dimensional Beings" really like humans and humanoids, which is
why so many ETs were humanoid and why some of them could interbreed
with humans.

(The campaign was based on the idea of someone posting the secret
techniques of Jurai superpowers to the 1990s web)
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

On Sun, 18 Jun 2023 09:22:50 -0700 (PDT), Hamish Laws
<hamish.laws@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, June 19, 2023 at 2:03:29?AM UTC+10, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Sat, 17 Jun 2023 20:13:59 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
>> <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>> >On Wednesday, June 14, 2023 at 1:19:29?PM UTC-6, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> >> Then another radio communique shows up and says
>> >> that they are dying out due to 99% of the babies born are male. Earth
>> >> builds a near light speed spaceship designed for 25 crew members with a
>> >> first generation cryosleep system with 100 million human embryos.
>> >
>> >It is plausible to me that the Earth government could have raided the fertility
>> >clinics, and the advanced technology of the future might support a larger
>> >population on Earth (so more fertility clinics). Perhaps the entire atmosphere
>> >of Jupiter was turned into fertilizer; and the stony asteroids were ground up
>> >to provide arable land.
>> >
>> >I suppose the book *could* explain the aliens as having been descended from,
>> >say, a colony expedition mounted by ancient Atlantis, or a spare human population
>> >established by kindly aliens in the distant past.
>> >
>> >Otherwise, if they are independently evolved intelligent life, that they could
>> >interbreed with humans is, of course, utterly preposterous - even if that sort
>> >of thing _was_ a standard convention of old-school science fiction.
>> Of course it is.
>>
>> And we know this because the number of independently evolved
>> intelligent species we have encounteres is ... exactly 0.
>>
>> So certainly none that we have encountered so far can do so.
>
>Are you aware at all of how genetics works?

Hey, I /agreed/ with him.

And "independently evolved intelligent life cannot interbreed with us"
is a /scientific proposition/: it can be falsified by discovering one
such form of life that can.

What would /that/ do your genetics?
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

On Sun, 18 Jun 2023 17:03:53 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
<jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

>On Sunday, June 18, 2023 at 10:03:29?AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Sat, 17 Jun 2023 20:13:59 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
>> <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
>> >Otherwise, if they are independently evolved intelligent life, that they could
>> >interbreed with humans is, of course, utterly preposterous - even if that sort
>> >of thing _was_ a standard convention of old-school science fiction.
>
>> Of course it is.
>>
>> And we know this because the number of independently evolved
>> intelligent species we have encounteres is ... exactly 0.
>
>Surely there are other ways of having enough information to draw
>conclusions than direct experience?

Of course they are.

But, if a counterexample appears, those other ways will vanish in a
puff of smoke. That's how science works: reality trumps theory.

To say otherwise is to confuse Science with Religion.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

In article <oh119iht1kfl4snf88l0pr84e193a6e8sg@4ax.com>,
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>On Sun, 18 Jun 2023 09:22:50 -0700 (PDT), Hamish Laws
><hamish.laws@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Monday, June 19, 2023 at 2:03:29?AM UTC+10, Paul S Person wrote:
>>> On Sat, 17 Jun 2023 20:13:59 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
>>> <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>> >On Wednesday, June 14, 2023 at 1:19:29?PM UTC-6, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>> >> Then another radio communique shows up and says
>>> >> that they are dying out due to 99% of the babies born are male. Earth
>>> >> builds a near light speed spaceship designed for 25 crew members with a
>>> >> first generation cryosleep system with 100 million human embryos.
>>> >
>>> >It is plausible to me that the Earth government could have raided
>the fertility
>>> >clinics, and the advanced technology of the future might support a larger
>>> >population on Earth (so more fertility clinics). Perhaps the entire
>atmosphere
>>> >of Jupiter was turned into fertilizer; and the stony asteroids were
>ground up
>>> >to provide arable land.
>>> >
>>> >I suppose the book *could* explain the aliens as having been
>descended from,
>>> >say, a colony expedition mounted by ancient Atlantis, or a spare
>human population
>>> >established by kindly aliens in the distant past.
>>> >
>>> >Otherwise, if they are independently evolved intelligent life, that
>they could
>>> >interbreed with humans is, of course, utterly preposterous - even
>if that sort
>>> >of thing _was_ a standard convention of old-school science fiction.
>>> Of course it is.
>>>
>>> And we know this because the number of independently evolved
>>> intelligent species we have encounteres is ... exactly 0.
>>>
>>> So certainly none that we have encountered so far can do so.
>>
>>Are you aware at all of how genetics works?
>
>Hey, I /agreed/ with him.
>
>And "independently evolved intelligent life cannot interbreed with us"
>is a /scientific proposition/: it can be falsified by discovering one
>such form of life that can.
>
>What would /that/ do your genetics?

Nothing, I don't think, but it would raise questions about evolution
and maybe abiogensis.

--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

On 6/19/2023 9:48 AM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> On Monday, 19 June 2023 at 14:36:34 UTC+1, James Nicoll wrote:
>> In article <5411060c-b52f-45b3...@googlegroups.com>,
>> William Hyde <wthyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Sunday, June 18, 2023 at 10:20:33 PM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
>>>> In article <32d9fc35-7800-4c71...@googlegroups.com>,
>>>> pete...@gmail.com <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Sunday, June 18, 2023 at 10:00:46 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>> On 6/17/2023 10:13 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wednesday, June 14, 2023 at 1:19:29 PM UTC-6, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>>> Then another radio communique shows up and says
>>>>>>>> that they are dying out due to 99% of the babies born are male. Earth
>>>>>>>> builds a near light speed spaceship designed for 25 crew
>>> members with a
>>>>>>>> first generation cryosleep system with 100 million human embryos.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It is plausible to me that the Earth government could have raided
>>>>> the fertility
>>>>>>> clinics, and the advanced technology of the future might support
>>> a larger
>>>>>>> population on Earth (so more fertility clinics). Perhaps the entire
>>>>> atmosphere
>>>>>>> of Jupiter was turned into fertilizer; and the stony asteroids were
>>>>> ground up
>>>>>>> to provide arable land.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I suppose the book *could* explain the aliens as having been
>>>>> descended from,
>>>>>>> say, a colony expedition mounted by ancient Atlantis, or a spare
>>>>> human population
>>>>>>> established by kindly aliens in the distant past.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Otherwise, if they are independently evolved intelligent life, that
>>>>> they could
>>>>>>> interbreed with humans is, of course, utterly preposterous - even
>>>>> if that sort
>>>>>>> of thing _was_ a standard convention of old-school science fiction.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> John Savard
>>>>>> 51,000 years ago, these space aliens ...
>>>>>
>>>>> Niven got this wrong too, with the Pak,
>>>>> But that was 50 years ago.
>>>> As did Le Guin. It was indefensible bullshit then, too.
>>>
>>> Stross, MacLeod, and Vance have universes in which people were taken from
>>> earth and settled elsewhere, aided by time travel in Stross' case.
>> I don't have a problem with humans transported in the past to other
>> worlds, as long as they evolved on Earth. But Niven and Le Guin had
>> humans as transplanted aliens who just happened to look like they
>> were a side-branch of a family whose fossils go back to the Cambrian.
>
> Douglas Adams's hitchhikers were like that, too. However, that
> universe has a lot of aliens who look human but probably aren't
> related. And the Earth was artificial, anyway. Just ten million years
> old, I think.
>
>> Traveller had very old lineages of humans kidnapped and transported
>> by Grandfather. I don't think Classic Traveller invested a lot of
>> time thinking about the implications of modern humans not existing
>> yet when Grandfather swung by 300,000 years ago. Those archaic
>> lineages would have evolved in circumstances very different from
>> any on Earth.
>
> I think there were some "early modern" humans then.
> And most people today outside Africa are part Neanderthal.
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jebel_Irhoud>
> is something I'm evidently putting a lot of weight on.
>
> Most past and present species of life on Earth, though,
> humans can't breed with at all - as far as we know,
> but generally, it's illegal to try. (I don't want to hear
> stories about this.)
>
> My point is that without life spreading between planets,
> aliens will be more different from us biologically than
> our livestock is.
>
> We let Star Trek do it, though.

There was a Star Trek episode (I think it was the original generation
but i am not sure) that claimed that progenitor aliens spread their
seeds around the galaxy.

Lynn

On 6/19/2023 12:23 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 6/19/2023 9:48 AM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
>> On Monday, 19 June 2023 at 14:36:34 UTC+1, James Nicoll wrote:
>>> In article <5411060c-b52f-45b3...@googlegroups.com>,
>>> William Hyde <wthyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Sunday, June 18, 2023 at 10:20:33 PM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
>>>>> In article <32d9fc35-7800-4c71...@googlegroups.com>,
>>>>> pete...@gmail.com <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Sunday, June 18, 2023 at 10:00:46 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>> On 6/17/2023 10:13 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, June 14, 2023 at 1:19:29 PM UTC-6, Lynn McGuire
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Then another radio communique shows up and says
>>>>>>>>> that they are dying out due to 99% of the babies born are male.
>>>>>>>>> Earth
>>>>>>>>> builds a near light speed spaceship designed for 25 crew
>>>> members with a
>>>>>>>>> first generation cryosleep system with 100 million human embryos.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It is plausible to me that the Earth government could have raided
>>>>>> the fertility
>>>>>>>> clinics, and the advanced technology of the future might support
>>>> a larger
>>>>>>>> population on Earth (so more fertility clinics). Perhaps the entire
>>>>>> atmosphere
>>>>>>>> of Jupiter was turned into fertilizer; and the stony asteroids were
>>>>>> ground up
>>>>>>>> to provide arable land.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I suppose the book *could* explain the aliens as having been
>>>>>> descended from,
>>>>>>>> say, a colony expedition mounted by ancient Atlantis, or a spare
>>>>>> human population
>>>>>>>> established by kindly aliens in the distant past.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Otherwise, if they are independently evolved intelligent life, that
>>>>>> they could
>>>>>>>> interbreed with humans is, of course, utterly preposterous - even
>>>>>> if that sort
>>>>>>>> of thing _was_ a standard convention of old-school science fiction.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> John Savard
>>>>>>> 51,000 years ago, these space aliens ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Niven got this wrong too, with the Pak,
>>>>>> But that was 50 years ago.
>>>>> As did Le Guin. It was indefensible bullshit then, too.
>>>>
>>>> Stross, MacLeod, and Vance have universes in which people were taken
>>>> from
>>>> earth and settled elsewhere, aided by time travel in Stross' case.
>>> I don't have a problem with humans transported in the past to other
>>> worlds, as long as they evolved on Earth. But Niven and Le Guin had
>>> humans as transplanted aliens who just happened to look like they
>>> were a side-branch of a family whose fossils go back to the Cambrian.
>>
>> Douglas Adams's hitchhikers were like that, too.  However, that
>> universe has a lot of aliens who look human but probably aren't
>> related.  And the Earth was artificial, anyway.  Just ten million years
>> old, I think.
>>
>>> Traveller had very old lineages of humans kidnapped and transported
>>> by Grandfather. I don't think Classic Traveller invested a lot of
>>> time thinking about the implications of modern humans not existing
>>> yet when Grandfather swung by 300,000 years ago. Those archaic
>>> lineages would have evolved in circumstances very different from
>>> any on Earth.
>>
>> I think there were some "early modern" humans then.
>> And most people today outside Africa are part Neanderthal.
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jebel_Irhoud>
>> is something I'm evidently putting a lot of weight on.
>>
>> Most past and present species of life on Earth, though,
>> humans can't breed with at all - as far as we know,
>> but generally, it's illegal to try.  (I don't want to hear
>> stories about this.)
>>
>> My point is that without life spreading between planets,
>> aliens will be more different from us biologically than
>> our livestock is.
>>
>> We let Star Trek do it, though.
>
> There was a Star Trek episode (I think it was the original generation
> but i am not sure) that claimed that progenitor aliens spread their
> seeds around the galaxy.
>
Next Generation episode.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On 6/19/2023 3:41 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
> On 6/19/2023 12:23 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> On 6/19/2023 9:48 AM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
>>> On Monday, 19 June 2023 at 14:36:34 UTC+1, James Nicoll wrote:
>>>> In article <5411060c-b52f-45b3...@googlegroups.com>,
>>>> William Hyde <wthyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Sunday, June 18, 2023 at 10:20:33 PM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
>>>>>> In article <32d9fc35-7800-4c71...@googlegroups.com>,
>>>>>> pete...@gmail.com <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sunday, June 18, 2023 at 10:00:46 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 6/17/2023 10:13 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, June 14, 2023 at 1:19:29 PM UTC-6, Lynn McGuire
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Then another radio communique shows up and says
>>>>>>>>>> that they are dying out due to 99% of the babies born are
>>>>>>>>>> male. Earth
>>>>>>>>>> builds a near light speed spaceship designed for 25 crew
>>>>> members with a
>>>>>>>>>> first generation cryosleep system with 100 million human embryos.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It is plausible to me that the Earth government could have raided
>>>>>>> the fertility
>>>>>>>>> clinics, and the advanced technology of the future might support
>>>>> a larger
>>>>>>>>> population on Earth (so more fertility clinics). Perhaps the
>>>>>>>>> entire
>>>>>>> atmosphere
>>>>>>>>> of Jupiter was turned into fertilizer; and the stony asteroids
>>>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>> ground up
>>>>>>>>> to provide arable land.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I suppose the book *could* explain the aliens as having been
>>>>>>> descended from,
>>>>>>>>> say, a colony expedition mounted by ancient Atlantis, or a spare
>>>>>>> human population
>>>>>>>>> established by kindly aliens in the distant past.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Otherwise, if they are independently evolved intelligent life,
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> they could
>>>>>>>>> interbreed with humans is, of course, utterly preposterous - even
>>>>>>> if that sort
>>>>>>>>> of thing _was_ a standard convention of old-school science
>>>>>>>>> fiction.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> John Savard
>>>>>>>> 51,000 years ago, these space aliens ...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Niven got this wrong too, with the Pak,
>>>>>>> But that was 50 years ago.
>>>>>> As did Le Guin. It was indefensible bullshit then, too.
>>>>>
>>>>> Stross, MacLeod, and Vance have universes in which people were
>>>>> taken from
>>>>> earth and settled elsewhere, aided by time travel in Stross' case.
>>>> I don't have a problem with humans transported in the past to other
>>>> worlds, as long as they evolved on Earth. But Niven and Le Guin had
>>>> humans as transplanted aliens who just happened to look like they
>>>> were a side-branch of a family whose fossils go back to the Cambrian.
>>>
>>> Douglas Adams's hitchhikers were like that, too.  However, that
>>> universe has a lot of aliens who look human but probably aren't
>>> related.  And the Earth was artificial, anyway.  Just ten million years
>>> old, I think.
>>>
>>>> Traveller had very old lineages of humans kidnapped and transported
>>>> by Grandfather. I don't think Classic Traveller invested a lot of
>>>> time thinking about the implications of modern humans not existing
>>>> yet when Grandfather swung by 300,000 years ago. Those archaic
>>>> lineages would have evolved in circumstances very different from
>>>> any on Earth.
>>>
>>> I think there were some "early modern" humans then.
>>> And most people today outside Africa are part Neanderthal.
>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jebel_Irhoud>
>>> is something I'm evidently putting a lot of weight on.
>>>
>>> Most past and present species of life on Earth, though,
>>> humans can't breed with at all - as far as we know,
>>> but generally, it's illegal to try.  (I don't want to hear
>>> stories about this.)
>>>
>>> My point is that without life spreading between planets,
>>> aliens will be more different from us biologically than
>>> our livestock is.
>>>
>>> We let Star Trek do it, though.
>>
>> There was a Star Trek episode (I think it was the original generation
>> but i am not sure) that claimed that progenitor aliens spread their
>> seeds around the galaxy.
>>
> Next Generation episode.

I am amazed that I remembered it at all.

Lynn