"The Best Hard Science Fiction Books by Women" by Dan Livingston
https://best-sci-fi-books.com/the-best-hard-science-fiction-books-by-women/

I have read:
7. Downbelow Station by C.J. Cherryh – 1981
6. Ancillary Justice by Ann Leckie – 2013
2. All Systems Red by Martha Wells – 2017

He is missing Connie Willis, Lois McMaster Bujold, Joan D. Vinge, Andre
Norton, Nancy Kress, and Elizabeth Moon.

Dan says "I’m considering hard SF to mean a few different things: the
story could be technology-focused rather than emotion-focused, or be
based on known physics as opposed to technology so futuristic that it
feels magical. As with all my lists, I play pretty loose with the rules
because I think it’s more important to get people reading good books
than sticking to some arbitrary sub-genre definitions."

Lynn

On 6/25/2023 7:51 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> "The Best Hard Science Fiction Books by Women" by Dan Livingston
>
> https://best-sci-fi-books.com/the-best-hard-science-fiction-books-by-women/
>
> I have read:
> 7. Downbelow Station by C.J. Cherryh – 1981
> 6. Ancillary Justice by Ann Leckie – 2013
> 2. All Systems Red by Martha Wells – 2017
>
> He is missing Connie Willis, Lois McMaster Bujold, Joan D. Vinge, Andre
> Norton, Nancy Kress, and Elizabeth Moon.
>
> Dan says "I’m considering hard SF to mean a few different things: the
> story could be technology-focused rather than emotion-focused, or be
> based on known physics as opposed to technology so futuristic that it
> feels magical. As with all my lists, I play pretty loose with the rules
> because I think it’s more important to get people reading good books
> than sticking to some arbitrary sub-genre definitions."
>
> Lynn

I would also add Jo Walton to this list but, she is a fantasy writer. I
would also consider Sarah A. Hoyt and Seanan McGuire for the list.

Lynn

On Monday, June 26, 2023 at 10:58:10 AM UTC+10, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 6/25/2023 7:51 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> > "The Best Hard Science Fiction Books by Women" by Dan Livingston
> >
> > https://best-sci-fi-books.com/the-best-hard-science-fiction-books-by-women/
> >
> > I have read:
> > 7. Downbelow Station by C.J. Cherryh – 1981
> > 6. Ancillary Justice by Ann Leckie – 2013
> > 2. All Systems Red by Martha Wells – 2017
> >
> > He is missing Connie Willis, Lois McMaster Bujold, Joan D. Vinge, Andre
> > Norton, Nancy Kress, and Elizabeth Moon.
> >
> > Dan says "I’m considering hard SF to mean a few different things: the
> > story could be technology-focused rather than emotion-focused, or be
> > based on known physics as opposed to technology so futuristic that it
> > feels magical. As with all my lists, I play pretty loose with the rules
> > because I think it’s more important to get people reading good books
> > than sticking to some arbitrary sub-genre definitions."
> >
> > Lynn
> I would also add Jo Walton to this list but, she is a fantasy writer. I
> would also consider Sarah A. Hoyt and Seanan McGuire for the list.
>
Dunno that Hoyt makes it to hard science fiction
McGuire's parasitology books could (published as Mira Grant)

On 6/25/2023 9:00 PM, Hamish Laws wrote:
> On Monday, June 26, 2023 at 10:58:10 AM UTC+10, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> On 6/25/2023 7:51 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>> "The Best Hard Science Fiction Books by Women" by Dan Livingston
>>>
>>> https://best-sci-fi-books.com/the-best-hard-science-fiction-books-by-women/
>>>
>>> I have read:
>>> 7. Downbelow Station by C.J. Cherryh – 1981
>>> 6. Ancillary Justice by Ann Leckie – 2013
>>> 2. All Systems Red by Martha Wells – 2017
>>>
>>> He is missing Connie Willis, Lois McMaster Bujold, Joan D. Vinge, Andre
>>> Norton, Nancy Kress, and Elizabeth Moon.
>>>
>>> Dan says "I’m considering hard SF to mean a few different things: the
>>> story could be technology-focused rather than emotion-focused, or be
>>> based on known physics as opposed to technology so futuristic that it
>>> feels magical. As with all my lists, I play pretty loose with the rules
>>> because I think it’s more important to get people reading good books
>>> than sticking to some arbitrary sub-genre definitions."
>>>
>>> Lynn
>> I would also add Jo Walton to this list but, she is a fantasy writer. I
>> would also consider Sarah A. Hoyt and Seanan McGuire for the list.
>>
> Dunno that Hoyt makes it to hard science fiction
> McGuire's parasitology books could (published as Mira Grant)

"Darkship Thieves" is very hard science fiction set about the year 2500
or so.
https://www.amazon.com/Darkship-Thieves-Sarah-Hoyt/dp/1630110280/

I am not sure if "Feed" is science fiction or fantasy, kinda straddles
the middle ground.
https://www.amazon.com/Feed-Newsflesh-Book-Mira-Grant/dp/0316081051/

Lynn

On Monday, June 26, 2023 at 12:33:03 PM UTC+10, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 6/25/2023 9:00 PM, Hamish Laws wrote:
> > On Monday, June 26, 2023 at 10:58:10 AM UTC+10, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> >> On 6/25/2023 7:51 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> >>> "The Best Hard Science Fiction Books by Women" by Dan Livingston
> >>>
> >>> https://best-sci-fi-books.com/the-best-hard-science-fiction-books-by-women/
> >>>
> >>> I have read:
> >>> 7. Downbelow Station by C.J. Cherryh – 1981
> >>> 6. Ancillary Justice by Ann Leckie – 2013
> >>> 2. All Systems Red by Martha Wells – 2017
> >>>
> >>> He is missing Connie Willis, Lois McMaster Bujold, Joan D. Vinge, Andre
> >>> Norton, Nancy Kress, and Elizabeth Moon.
> >>>
> >>> Dan says "I’m considering hard SF to mean a few different things: the
> >>> story could be technology-focused rather than emotion-focused, or be
> >>> based on known physics as opposed to technology so futuristic that it
> >>> feels magical. As with all my lists, I play pretty loose with the rules
> >>> because I think it’s more important to get people reading good books
> >>> than sticking to some arbitrary sub-genre definitions."
> >>>
> >>> Lynn
> >> I would also add Jo Walton to this list but, she is a fantasy writer. I
> >> would also consider Sarah A. Hoyt and Seanan McGuire for the list.
> >>
> > Dunno that Hoyt makes it to hard science fiction
> > McGuire's parasitology books could (published as Mira Grant)
> "Darkship Thieves" is very hard science fiction set about the year 2500
> or so.
> https://www.amazon.com/Darkship-Thieves-Sarah-Hoyt/dp/1630110280/

I read it in hardback when it was released, my recollection is that there's a lot of actually scientifically impossible stuff in the series
A simple example is the idea of a stealth ship in space. It doesn't work.
>
> I am not sure if "Feed" is science fiction or fantasy, kinda straddles
> the middle ground.
> https://www.amazon.com/Feed-Newsflesh-Book-Mira-Grant/dp/0316081051/
>
It's science fiction but I don't know if it's scientifically accurate enough to be hard science fiction.
I suspect that the zombie attributes are beyond what's possible for a human body but the disease stuff is meant to be pretty accurate (she did a lot of research and checked with a lot of experts)

Lynn McGuire wrote:
> "The Best Hard Science Fiction Books by Women" by Dan Livingston
>
> https://best-sci-fi-books.com/the-best-hard-science-fiction-books-by-women/
>
> He is missing Connie Willis, Lois McMaster Bujold, Joan D. Vinge, Andre
> Norton, Nancy Kress, and Elizabeth Moon.

What is the hardest science fiction Willis has written? (Unless our stance is that "best" or "hard" or "core" is not important, it's just that a woman wrote it at all.) Her novels are mostly time travel, arent they? Still, the subject says "Books", which allows collections, so maybe a short story.. ...None from a list of titles pops out at me; "Dilemma", a Positronic-Robot tribute story may be a puzzle, but I have no memory of it, and she hasn't collected it, so I don't have a copy. "With Friends Like These", a Berserker tribute story I may also be a puzzle story, I may have another appearance of it, I'll report if I can find it.

--
-Jack

In article <40cfc762-29d3-445f-bfc0-db4c71213f1dn@googlegroups.com>,
Jack Bohn <jack.bohn64@gmail.com> wrote:
>Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> "The Best Hard Science Fiction Books by Women" by Dan Livingston
>>
>> https://best-sci-fi-books.com/the-best-hard-science-fiction-books-by-women/
>>
>> He is missing Connie Willis, Lois McMaster Bujold, Joan D. Vinge, Andre
>> Norton, Nancy Kress, and Elizabeth Moon.
>
>What is the hardest science fiction Willis has written? (Unless our
>stance is that "best" or "hard" or "core" is not important, it's just
>that a woman wrote it at all.) Her novels are mostly time travel,
>arent they? Still, the subject says "Books", which allows collections,
>so maybe a short story. ...None from a list of titles pops out at me;
>"Dilemma", a Positronic-Robot tribute story may be a puzzle, but I have
>no memory of it, and she hasn't collected it, so I don't have a copy.
>"With Friends Like These", a Berserker tribute story I may also be a
>puzzle story, I may have another appearance of it, I'll report if I can
>find it.

Time Travel can't be hard SF?

I think Daisy in the Sun is about a nova. A Letter from the Clearies
is a post-WWIII piece (although any definition of hard SF that includes
it probably includes a huge amount of material).

--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

In article <u7cerf$ems$1@reader2.panix.com>,
jdnicoll@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:

> In article <40cfc762-29d3-445f-bfc0-db4c71213f1dn@googlegroups.com>,
> Jack Bohn <jack.bohn64@gmail.com> wrote:
> >Lynn McGuire wrote:
> >> "The Best Hard Science Fiction Books by Women" by Dan Livingston
> >>
> >> https://best-sci-fi-books.com/the-best-hard-science-fiction-books-by-women/
> >>
> >>
> >> He is missing Connie Willis, Lois McMaster Bujold, Joan D. Vinge, Andre
> >> Norton, Nancy Kress, and Elizabeth Moon.
> >
> >What is the hardest science fiction Willis has written? (Unless our
> >stance is that "best" or "hard" or "core" is not important, it's just
> >that a woman wrote it at all.) Her novels are mostly time travel,
> >arent they? Still, the subject says "Books", which allows collections,
> >so maybe a short story. ...None from a list of titles pops out at me;
> >"Dilemma", a Positronic-Robot tribute story may be a puzzle, but I have
> >no memory of it, and she hasn't collected it, so I don't have a copy.
> >"With Friends Like These", a Berserker tribute story I may also be a
> >puzzle story, I may have another appearance of it, I'll report if I can
> >find it.
>
> Time Travel can't be hard SF?
>

If Robert L. Forward wrote it, probably. Otherwise, everybody ignores
relativity (so much so, they don't even use a hand wave).

--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
�-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward robertaw@drizzle.com

In article <robertaw-ABF94E.09472726062023@news.individual.net>,
Robert Woodward <robertaw@drizzle.com> wrote:
>In article <u7cerf$ems$1@reader2.panix.com>,
> jdnicoll@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:
>
>> In article <40cfc762-29d3-445f-bfc0-db4c71213f1dn@googlegroups.com>,
>> Jack Bohn <jack.bohn64@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> >> "The Best Hard Science Fiction Books by Women" by Dan Livingston
>> >>
>> >>
>https://best-sci-fi-books.com/the-best-hard-science-fiction-books-by-women/
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> He is missing Connie Willis, Lois McMaster Bujold, Joan D. Vinge, Andre
>> >> Norton, Nancy Kress, and Elizabeth Moon.
>> >
>> >What is the hardest science fiction Willis has written? (Unless our
>> >stance is that "best" or "hard" or "core" is not important, it's just
>> >that a woman wrote it at all.) Her novels are mostly time travel,
>> >arent they? Still, the subject says "Books", which allows collections,
>> >so maybe a short story. ...None from a list of titles pops out at me;
>> >"Dilemma", a Positronic-Robot tribute story may be a puzzle, but I have
>> >no memory of it, and she hasn't collected it, so I don't have a copy.
>> >"With Friends Like These", a Berserker tribute story I may also be a
>> >puzzle story, I may have another appearance of it, I'll report if I can
>> >find it.
>>
>> Time Travel can't be hard SF?
>>
>
>If Robert L. Forward wrote it, probably. Otherwise, everybody ignores
>relativity (so much so, they don't even use a hand wave).
>
I find a day without Connie Willis fiction is like a day without
papercuts so I may not be the best advocate she could have in this
discussion. That said, I can think of one Willis that is definitely
hard SF that won a Hugo, Locus, and a Nebula: 1992's "Even the Queen".

I mean, for it exemplifies a particular issue I have with her, that
any character who disagrees with the author is an idiot whose only
hope of salvation is to change their mind to the author's perspective,
but clearly it resonated with a lot of readers.

--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

Lynn McGuire wrote:

>"The Best Hard Science Fiction Books by Women" by Dan Livingston
>
>https://best-sci-fi-books.com/the-best-hard-science-fiction-books-by-women/
>
>I have read:
>7. Downbelow Station by C.J. Cherryh – 1981
>6. Ancillary Justice by Ann Leckie – 2013
>2. All Systems Red by Martha Wells – 2017

I've read those, plys The Calculating Stars. I think the list is so
badly formulated that I won't try to add any.

Brian

James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <40cfc762-29d3-445f...@googlegroups.com>,
> Jack Bohn <jack....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >What is the hardest science fiction Willis has written? (Unless our
> >stance is that "best" or "hard" or "core" is not important, it's just
> >that a woman wrote it at all.) Her novels are mostly time travel,
> >arent they?

> Time Travel can't be hard SF?

I think Time Travel is on the list of impossible things that are proverbially limited to one per story, like FTL (technically, I guess the objection is to one or the other and not both). There are some time travel stories that I would class as hard SF, not just Sheffield or Forward who would include an appendix with the math, but any that use it to set logic puzzles of paradox. Any stories that use time travel as a bus to visit the past as another country I would exclude.

> I think Daisy in the Sun is about a nova. A Letter from the Clearies
> is a post-WWIII piece (although any definition of hard SF that includes
> it probably includes a huge amount of material).

"Daisy" was, IIRC, about a nova of Sol. I'd have to check the astronomical textbooks of the '70s and the decade prior before dunning it for science. Still, it was not "about" the nova in a way calculated to send readers to check astronomical textbooks.

Didn't you mention "Even the Queen"? Oh, later. Yeah, it's at least close to hard SF, in the "change one thing" category, which also earns it a ticket to the "as predicted by" lottery.

--
-Jack

On Monday, 26 June 2023 at 01:51:33 UTC+1, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> "The Best Hard Science Fiction Books by Women" by Dan Livingston
>
> https://best-sci-fi-books.com/the-best-hard-science-fiction-books-by-women/
>
> I have read:
> 7. Downbelow Station by C.J. Cherryh – 1981
> 6. Ancillary Justice by Ann Leckie – 2013
> 2. All Systems Red by Martha Wells – 2017
>
> He is missing Connie Willis, Lois McMaster Bujold, Joan D. Vinge, Andre
> Norton, Nancy Kress, and Elizabeth Moon.
>
> Dan says "I’m considering hard SF to mean a few different things: the
> story could be technology-focused rather than emotion-focused, or be
> based on known physics as opposed to technology so futuristic that it
> feels magical. As with all my lists, I play pretty loose with the rules
> because I think it’s more important to get people reading good books
> than sticking to some arbitrary sub-genre definitions."

Thus he steals the thunder I usually make about
how he uses words like "best", and "book". I see
he includes _Metropolis_, but not _Frankenstein_.

In article <1598c45c-d412-43ee-a132-8dd8e5091e3bn@googlegroups.com>,
Hamish Laws <hamish.laws@gmail.com> wrote:
>I read it in hardback when it was released, my recollection is that
>there's a lot of actually scientifically impossible stuff in the series
>A simple example is the idea of a stealth ship in space. It doesn't work.

(Hal Heydt)
Take it up with E. E. "Doc" Smith. Lensman universe doesn't seem
to have developed IR detection systems.

On 7/3/2023 6:22 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <1598c45c-d412-43ee-a132-8dd8e5091e3bn@googlegroups.com>,
> Hamish Laws <hamish.laws@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I read it in hardback when it was released, my recollection is that
>> there's a lot of actually scientifically impossible stuff in the series
>> A simple example is the idea of a stealth ship in space. It doesn't work.
>
> (Hal Heydt)
> Take it up with E. E. "Doc" Smith. Lensman universe doesn't seem
> to have developed IR detection systems.

We do visual detection prevention on some military equipment using paint
schemes and a few other tricks. I doubt that we have anything that uses
image reprojection from one side to the other side but, that is the
nirvana of the technology.

Thermal detection prevention is much harder but still doable. I think
that the F-22 and F-35 have *some* thermal detection prevention on them
but I doubt that the afterburners use it.

Radar detection prevention is also used on the F-117A, F-22, and F-35 by
absorption of the radar waves and very low radar image.

What did I miss ?

There are many authors using stealth technology on space ships. John
Varley, Robert Heinlein, John Ringo, etc.

Lynn

Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:
>On 7/3/2023 6:22 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> In article <1598c45c-d412-43ee-a132-8dd8e5091e3bn@googlegroups.com>,
>> Hamish Laws <hamish.laws@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I read it in hardback when it was released, my recollection is that
>>> there's a lot of actually scientifically impossible stuff in the series
>>> A simple example is the idea of a stealth ship in space. It doesn't work.
>>
>> (Hal Heydt)
>> Take it up with E. E. "Doc" Smith. Lensman universe doesn't seem
>> to have developed IR detection systems.
>
>We do visual detection prevention on some military equipment using paint
>schemes and a few other tricks. I doubt that we have anything that uses
>image reprojection from one side to the other side but, that is the
>nirvana of the technology.
>
>Thermal detection prevention is much harder but still doable. I think
>that the F-22 and F-35 have *some* thermal detection prevention on them
>but I doubt that the afterburners use it.
>
>Radar detection prevention is also used on the F-117A, F-22, and F-35 by
>absorption of the radar waves and very low radar image.

Modern designs for thermal detection prevention focus on placing
the heat producing elements on the top of the fuselage, to shield the thermal
emissions from ground-based detectors. They also pump fuel through
the leading edge surfaces to cool them.

>There are many authors using stealth technology on space ships. John
>Varley, Robert Heinlein, John Ringo, etc.

With the caveat they all write fiction.

On Tuesday, July 4, 2023 at 9:32:08 AM UTC+10, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <1598c45c-d412-43ee...@googlegroups.com>,
> Hamish Laws <hamis...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >I read it in hardback when it was released, my recollection is that
> >there's a lot of actually scientifically impossible stuff in the series
> >A simple example is the idea of a stealth ship in space. It doesn't work..
> (Hal Heydt)
> Take it up with E. E. "Doc" Smith. Lensman universe doesn't seem
> to have developed IR detection systems.

Would anybody ever have described Lensmen as hard science fiction?
I've read several of the Darkship series and I enjoyed them but I don't think they qualify as hard science fiction, admittedly I'm not sure how many of the ones Livingston lists would either

Hamish Laws <hamish.laws@gmail.com> writes:
>On Tuesday, July 4, 2023 at 9:32:08=E2=80=AFAM UTC+10, Dorothy J Heydt wrot=
>e:
>> In article <1598c45c-d412-43ee...@googlegroups.com>,
>> Hamish Laws <hamis...@gmail.com> wrote:=20
>> >I read it in hardback when it was released, my recollection is that=20
>> >there's a lot of actually scientifically impossible stuff in the series=
>=20
>> >A simple example is the idea of a stealth ship in space. It doesn't work=
>.
>> (Hal Heydt)=20
>> Take it up with E. E. "Doc" Smith. Lensman universe doesn't seem=20
>> to have developed IR detection systems.
>
>Would anybody ever have described Lensmen as hard science fiction?
>I've read several of the Darkship series and I enjoyed them but I don't thi=
>nk they qualify as hard science fiction, admittedly I'm not sure how many o=
>f the ones Livingston lists would either

Even Doc Smith didn't think of Skylark or Lensman as "hard science fiction".

_Spacehounds of the IPC_, however, was written with scientific accuracy
in mind - yet the science fantasy of Skylark and Lensman was much more salable.

On 2023-07-04, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:

> Modern designs for thermal detection prevention focus on placing
> the heat producing elements on the top of the fuselage, to shield the thermal
> emissions from ground-based detectors. They also pump fuel through
> the leading edge surfaces to cool them.

Stupid question: Aren't you trailing a plume of hot exhaust?

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

Christian Weisgerber wrote:
> Scott Lurndal wrote:
>
>> Modern designs for thermal detection prevention focus on placing
>> the heat producing elements on the top of the fuselage, to shield the thermal
>> emissions from ground-based detectors. They also pump fuel through
>> the leading edge surfaces to cool them.
>
> Stupid question: Aren't you trailing a plume of hot exhaust?

Wunderwaffen plumage precedes pratfalls?

Danke,

--
Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``. https://crcomp.net/reviews.php
telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,. Walk humbly with thy God.
tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.' Make 1984 fiction again.

Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> writes:
>On 2023-07-04, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>
>> Modern designs for thermal detection prevention focus on placing
>> the heat producing elements on the top of the fuselage, to shield the thermal
>> emissions from ground-based detectors. They also pump fuel through
>> the leading edge surfaces to cool them.
>
>Stupid question: Aren't you trailing a plume of hot exhaust?

High bypass ratio and serrated exhaust nozzles.

And note that missiles don't track the plume, they track
the hot engine parts (e.g. exhaust nozzle), and placing
those above the fuselage will shield them from IR missiles.

On Monday, July 3, 2023 at 11:45:26 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 7/3/2023 6:22 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> > In article <1598c45c-d412-43ee...@googlegroups.com>,
> > Hamish Laws <hamis...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> I read it in hardback when it was released, my recollection is that
> >> there's a lot of actually scientifically impossible stuff in the series
> >> A simple example is the idea of a stealth ship in space. It doesn't work.
> >
> > (Hal Heydt)
> > Take it up with E. E. "Doc" Smith. Lensman universe doesn't seem
> > to have developed IR detection systems.
> We do visual detection prevention on some military equipment using paint
> schemes and a few other tricks. I doubt that we have anything that uses
> image reprojection from one side to the other side but, that is the
> nirvana of the technology.
>
> Thermal detection prevention is much harder but still doable. I think
> that the F-22 and F-35 have *some* thermal detection prevention on them
> but I doubt that the afterburners use it.
>
> Radar detection prevention is also used on the F-117A, F-22, and F-35 by
> absorption of the radar waves and very low radar image.
>
> What did I miss ?

Geometry. Most obvious on the F117, which consists of flat planes, joined at obtuse
and acute angles. There is not a right angle on the plane. The B2 and F35, designed
later with better software, do the same with nice smooth curves that don't generate
caustics.

Radar absorbing materials are also used. The materials are delicate,
classified and expensive and require a great deal of maintenance.
The planes cannot be stored outdoors where it rains and require a
specially trained crew.

A lot of work is underway to find cheaper and more durable radar absorbing
materials

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/43938/f-35-and-f-117-spotted-flying-with-mysterious-mirror-like-skin

Pt

On Tuesday, 4 July 2023 at 15:47:46 UTC+1, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Hamish Laws <hamis...@gmail.com> writes:
> >On Tuesday, July 4, 2023 at 9:32:08=E2=80=AFAM UTC+10, Dorothy J Heydt wrot=
> >e:
> >> In article <1598c45c-d412-43ee...@googlegroups.com>,
> >> Hamish Laws <hamis...@gmail.com> wrote:=20
> >> >I read it in hardback when it was released, my recollection is that=20
> >> >there's a lot of actually scientifically impossible stuff in the series=
> >=20
> >> >A simple example is the idea of a stealth ship in space. It doesn't work=
> >.
> >> (Hal Heydt)=20
> >> Take it up with E. E. "Doc" Smith. Lensman universe doesn't seem=20
> >> to have developed IR detection systems.
> >
> >Would anybody ever have described Lensmen as hard science fiction?
> >I've read several of the Darkship series and I enjoyed them but I don't thi=
> >nk they qualify as hard science fiction, admittedly I'm not sure how many o=
> >f the ones Livingston lists would either
> Even Doc Smith didn't think of Skylark or Lensman as "hard science fiction".
>
> _Spacehounds of the IPC_, however, was written with scientific accuracy
> in mind - yet the science fantasy of Skylark and Lensman was much more salable.

I think we didn't examine precisely what "hard" means.
It takes courage and good eyesight to use the word
"coruscate" in print. :-)

An alien politics novel where nobody has a pronoun
you saw outside this book, or any vowels, or one with
its own unique and necessary vocabulary, is quite a
challenge to read. Maybe start with James Thurber's
_The Story of O_.

On 7/4/2023 8:50 AM, Hamish Laws wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 4, 2023 at 9:32:08 AM UTC+10, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> In article <1598c45c-d412-43ee...@googlegroups.com>,
>> Hamish Laws <hamis...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I read it in hardback when it was released, my recollection is that
>>> there's a lot of actually scientifically impossible stuff in the series
>>> A simple example is the idea of a stealth ship in space. It doesn't work.
>> (Hal Heydt)
>> Take it up with E. E. "Doc" Smith. Lensman universe doesn't seem
>> to have developed IR detection systems.
>
> Would anybody ever have described Lensmen as hard science fiction?
> I've read several of the Darkship series and I enjoyed them but I don't think they qualify as hard science fiction, admittedly I'm not sure how many of the ones Livingston lists would either

The Darkship books are 300+ years in the future. Things can and will
radically change by then. Unless, we end up radiating the entire planet.

First, we had the stone age. Then we had the bronze age. Then we had
the iron age. Then we had the steel age. Now we are in the carbon
fiber age. Who knows what magic materials will be created next in these
fast moving times ?

Lynn

On Wednesday, July 5, 2023 at 3:45:23 PM UTC+10, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 7/4/2023 8:50 AM, Hamish Laws wrote:
> > On Tuesday, July 4, 2023 at 9:32:08 AM UTC+10, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> >> In article <1598c45c-d412-43ee...@googlegroups.com>,
> >> Hamish Laws <hamis...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> I read it in hardback when it was released, my recollection is that
> >>> there's a lot of actually scientifically impossible stuff in the series
> >>> A simple example is the idea of a stealth ship in space. It doesn't work.
> >> (Hal Heydt)
> >> Take it up with E. E. "Doc" Smith. Lensman universe doesn't seem
> >> to have developed IR detection systems.
> >
> > Would anybody ever have described Lensmen as hard science fiction?
> > I've read several of the Darkship series and I enjoyed them but I don't think they qualify as hard science fiction, admittedly I'm not sure how many of the ones Livingston lists would either
> The Darkship books are 300+ years in the future. Things can and will
> radically change by then. Unless, we end up radiating the entire planet.
>
> First, we had the stone age. Then we had the bronze age. Then we had
> the iron age. Then we had the steel age. Now we are in the carbon
> fiber age. Who knows what magic materials will be created next in these
> fast moving times ?
>
https://www.forbes.com/sites/chadorzel/2015/12/22/the-expanse-and-the-physics-of-stealth-in-space/?sh=6af1cc7c6482
has a bit of a breakdown on the problems of stealth in space

On Tue, 4 Jul 2023 19:28:25 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
<rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:

<snip>

>An alien politics novel where nobody has a pronoun
>you saw outside this book, or any vowels, or one with
>its own unique and necessary vocabulary, is quite a
>challenge to read. Maybe start with James Thurber's
>_The Story of O_.

ITYM "The Wonderful O" (to be fair, I made the same mistake aged
approximately 10 some 50 years ago, asking for "The Story of O" in the
children's section of my local bookshop).

--
Jerry Brown

A cat may look at a king
(but probably won't bother)