On 8/11/2023 11:23 AM, Andrew McDowell wrote:
> On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 3:07:51 PM UTC+1, James Nicoll wrote:
>> Notable Works of Non-Fiction Written by SFF Authors
>>
>> Five authors best known for their speculative fiction cover non-fiction
>> from space travel to cooking.
>>
>> https://www.tor.com/2023/08/11/notable-works-of-non-fiction-written-by-sff-authors/
>> --
>> My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
>> My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
>> My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
>> My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P._J._Plauger is notable, at least to me, for two classic early computer books, "The Elements of Programming Style", and "Software Tools" . I don't recognise any of his SF, but apaprently he did go so far as to get a Hugo nomination, back in the days when that meant something.

I debugged into Plauger's C++ code many times in the past since
Microsoft used his variant of the C++ Standard Library. His Template
code was awesome and had serious issues with Visual C++ 2003 that Visual
C++ 2005 fixed. I emailed him several times and it was always "wait for
Microsoft to fix their *%^%$% compiler".

Lynn

On 8/14/2023 4:42 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 8/11/2023 6:18 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>> On 8/11/2023 12:41 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>> On 8/11/2023 9:07 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
>>>> Notable Works of Non-Fiction Written by SFF Authors
>>>>
>>>> Five authors best known for their speculative fiction cover non-fiction
>>>> from space travel to cooking.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.tor.com/2023/08/11/notable-works-of-non-fiction-written-by-sff-authors/
>>>
>>> "6: Few scriptwriters still use manual typewriters, so it is unlikely
>>> anyone currently writing will accidentally use the wrong pitch size
>>> on a manuscript. Result of such an accident: while the page count is
>>> correct, there are far too many words for the time allotted. This
>>> happened to Gerrold and required extensive tightening of the script."
>>>
>>> James Patterson writes his books in longhand on spiral bound
>>> notebooks. By the time he has gotten to the fifth or sixth rewrite,
>>> he is ready to publish the book.  He works on 30+ books at a time.
>>>
>> Actually he farms out 30+ books at a time.
>
> Ah, jealous much ?
>
Not at all jealous, just clarifying a misconception.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 8:07:51 AM UTC-6, James Nicoll wrote:

> Five authors best known for their speculative fiction cover non-fiction
> from space travel to cooking.

I quite agree that Carl Sagan is _not_ best known for his one foray into
science fiction.

And Secret and Urgent was my favorite book by Fletcher Pratt, it's an early
history of codes and ciphers.

Your comment on Isaac Asimov was, of course, spot on.

John Savard

On 8/14/2023 7:42 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
> On 8/14/2023 4:42 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> On 8/11/2023 6:18 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>> On 8/11/2023 12:41 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>> On 8/11/2023 9:07 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
>>>>> Notable Works of Non-Fiction Written by SFF Authors
>>>>>
>>>>> Five authors best known for their speculative fiction cover
>>>>> non-fiction
>>>>> from space travel to cooking.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.tor.com/2023/08/11/notable-works-of-non-fiction-written-by-sff-authors/
>>>>
>>>> "6: Few scriptwriters still use manual typewriters, so it is
>>>> unlikely anyone currently writing will accidentally use the wrong
>>>> pitch size on a manuscript. Result of such an accident: while the
>>>> page count is correct, there are far too many words for the time
>>>> allotted. This happened to Gerrold and required extensive tightening
>>>> of the script."
>>>>
>>>> James Patterson writes his books in longhand on spiral bound
>>>> notebooks. By the time he has gotten to the fifth or sixth rewrite,
>>>> he is ready to publish the book.  He works on 30+ books at a time.
>>>>
>>> Actually he farms out 30+ books at a time.
>>
>> Ah, jealous much ?
>>
> Not at all jealous, just clarifying a misconception.

Do you know him ? Do you watch over his work and document his practices
? I am guessing no and that you are just stating a false accusation.

Lynn

On 8/14/2023 8:08 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 8/14/2023 7:42 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>> On 8/14/2023 4:42 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>> On 8/11/2023 6:18 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>>> On 8/11/2023 12:41 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>> On 8/11/2023 9:07 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
>>>>>> Notable Works of Non-Fiction Written by SFF Authors
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Five authors best known for their speculative fiction cover
>>>>>> non-fiction
>>>>>> from space travel to cooking.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.tor.com/2023/08/11/notable-works-of-non-fiction-written-by-sff-authors/
>>>>>
>>>>> "6: Few scriptwriters still use manual typewriters, so it is
>>>>> unlikely anyone currently writing will accidentally use the wrong
>>>>> pitch size on a manuscript. Result of such an accident: while the
>>>>> page count is correct, there are far too many words for the time
>>>>> allotted. This happened to Gerrold and required extensive
>>>>> tightening of the script."
>>>>>
>>>>> James Patterson writes his books in longhand on spiral bound
>>>>> notebooks. By the time he has gotten to the fifth or sixth rewrite,
>>>>> he is ready to publish the book.  He works on 30+ books at a time.
>>>>>
>>>> Actually he farms out 30+ books at a time.
>>>
>>> Ah, jealous much ?
>>>
>> Not at all jealous, just clarifying a misconception.
>
> Do you know him ?  Do you watch over his work and document his practices
> ?  I am guessing no and that you are just stating a false accusation.
>
He showed how he organizes the farming out in an interview I saw. Its
not a secret, he just doesn't advertise it.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On 8/14/2023 11:39 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
> On 8/14/2023 8:08 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> On 8/14/2023 7:42 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>> On 8/14/2023 4:42 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>> On 8/11/2023 6:18 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>>>> On 8/11/2023 12:41 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>> On 8/11/2023 9:07 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
>>>>>>> Notable Works of Non-Fiction Written by SFF Authors
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Five authors best known for their speculative fiction cover
>>>>>>> non-fiction
>>>>>>> from space travel to cooking.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.tor.com/2023/08/11/notable-works-of-non-fiction-written-by-sff-authors/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "6: Few scriptwriters still use manual typewriters, so it is
>>>>>> unlikely anyone currently writing will accidentally use the wrong
>>>>>> pitch size on a manuscript. Result of such an accident: while the
>>>>>> page count is correct, there are far too many words for the time
>>>>>> allotted. This happened to Gerrold and required extensive
>>>>>> tightening of the script."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> James Patterson writes his books in longhand on spiral bound
>>>>>> notebooks. By the time he has gotten to the fifth or sixth
>>>>>> rewrite, he is ready to publish the book.  He works on 30+ books
>>>>>> at a time.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Actually he farms out 30+ books at a time.
>>>>
>>>> Ah, jealous much ?
>>>>
>>> Not at all jealous, just clarifying a misconception.
>>
>> Do you know him ?  Do you watch over his work and document his
>> practices ?  I am guessing no and that you are just stating a false
>> accusation.
>>
> He showed how he organizes the farming out in an interview I saw.  Its
> not a secret, he just doesn't advertise it.

That is about half of his books. He puts their names on the book. Such
as Bill Clinton, Dolly Parton, and many others.
https://www.amazon.com/Obsessed-Pattersons-detective-Bennett-Thriller-ebook/dp/B0BLNCCZ7W/

Read his autobiography. Over half of his books are written solely by
him. He has a process, it works for him, each book has five or six
stages of writing books. At some point he farms the book out to someone
else or he finishes the book himself.
https://www.amazon.com/James-Patterson-Stories-My-Life-ebook/dp/B09HQN8ZXX/

Lynn

On 15/08/23 12:42, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
> On 8/14/2023 4:42 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> On 8/11/2023 6:18 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>> On 8/11/2023 12:41 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:snip
>>>>
>>>> James Patterson writes his books in longhand on spiral bound
>>>> notebooks. By the time he has gotten to the fifth or sixth rewrite,
>>>> he is ready to publish the book.  He works on 30+ books at a time.
>>>>
>>> Actually he farms out 30+ books at a time.
>>
>> Ah, jealous much ?
>>
> Not at all jealous, just clarifying a misconception.
>

You have made the massive assumption that Dimwire's thin beliefs can be
altered by contradiction with fact.

On Aug 14, 2023, pete...@gmail.com wrote
(in article<bffd3ee8-4ef4-4501-b4fc-cadddf7194f4n@googlegroups.com>):

> On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 7:07:51 AM UTC-7, James Nicoll wrote:
> > Notable Works of Non-Fiction Written by SFF Authors
> >
> > Five authors best known for their speculative fiction cover non-fiction
> > from space travel to cooking.
> >
> > https://www.tor.com/2023/08/11/notable-works-of-non-fiction-written-by-sff-a
> > uthors/
>
> A lot of SF authors crossed genres to keep the pot boiling. Andrew Offut's
> output of
> 'adult' novels was far larger than his SF output.
>
> Pt

Hmm. I know about the 'Crusader’ books (which, unlike most ‘adult’
books, actually had plots and real characters with semi-real motivations,
though his version of Richard I Queen of the English was decidely more hetro
than the real thing) but I thought that that was it for that particular
genre. What else is out there, is it any good, and is it available as
ebook(s)?

Hmm. I just looked him up on Wiki. Bloody hell, 130+ pornos! On any other
subject, that’d be approaching Asimovian levels of production! And
there’s _five_ Crusaders, I only knew of four! And all those
’Spaceways’!

I suspect that I will not be completing my Offut collection any time soon.

On Monday, August 14, 2023 at 7:49:40 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 8/11/2023 11:23 AM, Andrew McDowell wrote:
> > On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 3:07:51 PM UTC+1, James Nicoll wrote:
> >> Notable Works of Non-Fiction Written by SFF Authors
> >>
> >> Five authors best known for their speculative fiction cover non-fiction
> >> from space travel to cooking.
> >>
> >> https://www.tor.com/2023/08/11/notable-works-of-non-fiction-written-by-sff-authors/
> >> --
> >> My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
> >> My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
> >> My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
> >> My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P._J._Plauger is notable, at least to me, for two classic early computer books, "The Elements of Programming Style", and "Software Tools" . I don't recognise any of his SF, but apaprently he did go so far as to get a Hugo nomination, back in the days when that meant something.
> I debugged into Plauger's C++ code many times in the past since
> Microsoft used his variant of the C++ Standard Library. His Template
> code was awesome and had serious issues with Visual C++ 2003 that Visual
> C++ 2005 fixed. I emailed him several times and it was always "wait for
> Microsoft to fix their *%^%$% compiler".

I remember reading 'Child of All Ages' when it came out, and really liking it. About 5 years later, I read
'Software Tools', and 'Elements....', and thought them excellent.

Not until this thread did I realize they had the same author.

Today I learned....

pt

On Monday, August 14, 2023 at 7:55:55 PM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 8:07:51 AM UTC-6, James Nicoll wrote:
>
> > Five authors best known for their speculative fiction cover non-fiction
> > from space travel to cooking.
> I quite agree that Carl Sagan is _not_ best known for his one foray into
> science fiction.
>
> And Secret and Urgent was my favorite book by Fletcher Pratt, it's an early
> history of codes and ciphers.
>
> Your comment on Isaac Asimov was, of course, spot on.

There was a lot of interesting stuff in the many comments that the
post attracted.

After reading one comment, which mentioned _Heart of Oak_, by
Walter John Williams... I thought it was a pity no one mentioned
_Little Wars_ by H. G. Wells!

Basically, a set of miniatures rules, before miniatures rules were
a thing.

John Savard

On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 10:21:10 AM UTC-4, WolfFan wrote:
> On Aug 14, 2023, pete...@gmail.com wrote
> (in article<bffd3ee8-4ef4-4501...@googlegroups.com>):
> > On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 7:07:51 AM UTC-7, James Nicoll wrote:
> > > Notable Works of Non-Fiction Written by SFF Authors
> > >
> > > Five authors best known for their speculative fiction cover non-fiction
> > > from space travel to cooking.
> > >
> > > https://www.tor.com/2023/08/11/notable-works-of-non-fiction-written-by-sff-a
> > > uthors/
> >
> > A lot of SF authors crossed genres to keep the pot boiling. Andrew Offut's
> > output of
> > 'adult' novels was far larger than his SF output.
> >
> > Pt
> Hmm. I know about the 'Crusader’ books (which, unlike most ‘adult’
> books, actually had plots and real characters with semi-real motivations,
> though his version of Richard I Queen of the English was decidely more hetro
> than the real thing) but I thought that that was it for that particular
> genre. What else is out there, is it any good, and is it available as
> ebook(s)?
>
> Hmm. I just looked him up on Wiki. Bloody hell, 130+ pornos! On any other
> subject, that’d be approaching Asimovian levels of production! And
> there’s _five_ Crusaders, I only knew of four! And all those
> ’Spaceways’!

When the magazine SF market collapsed circa 1960, Silverberg turned to
porn. Very softcore, given the times. Remember that these were the days
when someone paid Alexander King $500 to translate some Ovid.

Writing first a novel a month, and eventually scaling up to four, the $600 he
got for these in no small measure contributed to his becoming a millionaire
before age thirty.

It doesn't sound like he put the effort into this that Offut did into the
crusader books (I have read the first), but the publishers kept asking
for more.

Silverberg detailed this in an essay called "My Life as a Pornographer" which
used to be available online.

William Hyde

On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 5:26:47 PM UTC-4, William Hyde wrote:
[snip-snip]
> When the magazine SF market collapsed circa 1960, Silverberg turned to
> porn. Very softcore, given the times. [snip]

The magazine market took off ca. 1939, barely survived WWII, recovered in
1946-1947, experienced an unsustainable explosion in 1953, transitioned
from pulps to digests in 1949-1956 and collapsed in the late 1950s. It has
been often described as the "death of science fiction" episode -- see _Who
Killed Science Fiction?: An Affectionate Autopsy_ (1960,
http://127.0.0.1/cgi-bin/title.cgi?102803 )

> Silverberg detailed this in an essay called "My Life as a Pornographer"
> which used to be available online.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/mvbw3v/sin-a-rama-excerpt-my-life-as-a-pornographer

On 2023-08-15, Ahasuerus <ahasuerus@email.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 5:26:47 PM UTC-4, William Hyde wrote:
> [snip-snip]
>> When the magazine SF market collapsed circa 1960, Silverberg turned to
>> porn. Very softcore, given the times. [snip]
>
> The magazine market took off ca. 1939, barely survived WWII, recovered in
> 1946-1947, experienced an unsustainable explosion in 1953, transitioned
> from pulps to digests in 1949-1956 and collapsed in the late 1950s. It has
> been often described as the "death of science fiction" episode -- see _Who
> Killed Science Fiction?: An Affectionate Autopsy_ (1960,
> http://127.0.0.1/cgi-bin/title.cgi?102803 )

A more globally accessible URL, which gives both the 1960 and 1980 followup:
https://efanzines.com/EK/eI29/eI29.pdf

Fascinating, thanks! I just spent 3 hours skimming through the 190
pages. A very different time. The core of it is 71 responses to 5
(open-ended) questions about whether and why magazine science fiction
was dead and what would happen in the future. A large number of very
thoughtful responses from a very impressive list of SF responders.
(E.g. the first 4 alphabetically were Anonymous1(Heinlein),
Anonymous2(Farmer), Anderson, Asimov.)

A tremendous variety in answers. The magazine distribution collapse in
the late 50's was blamed by several, but many more blamed "dull,
boring, and inferior material being published." I liked the argument
from several that the poor quality meant magazines couldn't attract
new readers and the old readers weren't seeing anything new.

Chris

On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 9:50:13 PM UTC-4, Chris Buckley wrote:
> On 2023-08-15, Ahasuerus <ahas...@email.com> wrote:
[snip-snip]
> > The magazine market [snip] collapsed in the late 1950s. It has
> > been often described as the "death of science fiction" episode -- see _Who
> > Killed Science Fiction?: An Affectionate Autopsy_ (1960,
> > http://127.0.0.1/cgi-bin/title.cgi?102803 )
> A more globally accessible URL, which gives both the 1960 and 1980 followup:
> https://efanzines.com/EK/eI29/eI29.pdf
>
> Fascinating, thanks! I just spent 3 hours skimming through the 190
> pages. A very different time. [snip]

> A tremendous variety in answers. The magazine distribution collapse in
> the late 50's was blamed by several, but many more blamed "dull,
> boring, and inferior material being published." I liked the argument
> from several that the poor quality meant magazines couldn't attract
> new readers and the old readers weren't seeing anything new.

Yes, a great deal of variety, including "short fiction vs. novels", the
viability of mass market paperbacks, the role of "psi", Hollywood,
the Sputnik, social commentary vs. storytelling, etc.

One of the things that stands out to me is the following comment
made by F. M. Busby:

"The paperback is not really a good substitute for the magazine,
because it has no personality, and let’s face it, we who are hooked
on the stuff go for the personality of a zine every bit as much as we
do for the stories therein, in most cases".

Reminds me of some recent discussions of the decline of mass
market paperbacks and the broader issue of paper books vs.
e-books, online magazines vs. paper magazines, Amazon and
Kindle Unlimited, self-publishing, "digital first", Patreon, etc.

Also, I should point out that the essays in _Who Killed Science
Fiction?_ were written at a time when the magazine collapse was
still in progress. Busby's letter mentions _Fantastic Universe_,
_Science Fiction Stories_, and _Future_ as proof that things, although
"poor", are not as bad as they could be. All of them were dead by
mid-1960.

On Fri, 11 Aug 2023 14:28:01 -0500, Lynn McGuire
<lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 8/11/2023 2:04 PM, Martin wrote:
>> On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 2:58:56?PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>> On 8/11/2023 9:07 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
>>>> Notable Works of Non-Fiction Written by SFF Authors
>>>>
>>>> Five authors best known for their speculative fiction cover non-fiction
>>>> from space travel to cooking.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.tor.com/2023/08/11/notable-works-of-non-fiction-written-by-sff-authors/
>>> What, nothing by Isaac Asimov ?
>>>
>>> Didn't he publish over 100 science fact books ?
>>>
>>> Lynn
>>
>> James wrote in the article: "I will begin by observing that Isaac Asimov wrote a lot of non-fiction texts in almost every Dewey Decimal System category. Picking just one to represent them all would be difficult and I am not going to even try."
>
>Ah, I missed that.

That was the first thing I thought of. Read the Foundation books while
on vacation with my parents when I was 12 (becoming a HUGE fan of
Arkady Darrell and the Mule and being old enough to understand only
too well the "fate worse than death" the Overlord of Kalgan had in
mind for her...) then read nothing but then spent 3-4 years reading
lots of non-SF Asimov till I was 16 before picking up his SF again.

I definitely read his 3 volume physics series before I read any more
of his SF :)