Have you ever thought about a Twelve Step program for people who talk
too much?

You could call it On and On Anon.

From page 43 in "The Sparrow" by Mary Doria Russell

Has anybody ever posted about that book here?

On 14/08/23 15:08, a425couple wrote:
> Have you ever thought about a Twelve Step program for people who talk
> too much?
>
> You could call it On and On Anon.
>
>
> From page 43 in "The Sparrow" by Mary Doria Russell
>
> Has anybody ever posted about that book here?
>

You just did. I can't remember anyone else doing so.

What a powerful book, posing the Catholic puzzle of whether great art
justifies great suffering and questioning whether the fall of every
sparrow is important or known. I loved it with that perverse pleasure a
fan of horror fiction has when terrified but unable to stop reading. Not
just terrified by the suffering but also outraged by the distortion of
the truth. Her writing made it all too real. A 5 star book.
I read it in 2018 and as I still remember it well, have not been brave
enough to open the continuation novel Children of God.

On 2023-08-14, Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> wrote:
> On 14/08/23 15:08, a425couple wrote:
>> Have you ever thought about a Twelve Step program for people who talk
>> too much?
>>
>> You could call it On and On Anon.
>>
>>
>> From page 43 in "The Sparrow" by Mary Doria Russell
>>
>> Has anybody ever posted about that book here?
>>
>
> You just did. I can't remember anyone else doing so.
>
> What a powerful book, posing the Catholic puzzle of whether great art
> justifies great suffering and questioning whether the fall of every
> sparrow is important or known. I loved it with that perverse pleasure a
> fan of horror fiction has when terrified but unable to stop reading. Not
> just terrified by the suffering but also outraged by the distortion of
> the truth. Her writing made it all too real. A 5 star book.
> I read it in 2018 and as I still remember it well, have not been brave
> enough to open the continuation novel Children of God.

Titus, you've previously posted about it in sf.written! And I have
posted several times throughout the years (eg 2017), including in
response to you. I append my comments from an earlier post.

Chris

From alan@sabir.com Mon Jun 18 11:12:27 2018
Subject: Re: Five Star Reads So Far This Year.

On 2018-06-18, Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> wrote:
....
> The Sparrow. Mary Doria Russell.
> Five stars for the story and five stars for the look at the Roman
> Catholic faith from a convert to Judaism.
> As I am still gobsmacked by this book, I plan to look at reviews,
> perhaps on Goodreads unless someone has a better suggestion?
....
_The Sparrow_ is emotional impact of an entirely different
variety. It's on my favorites bookcase, but unlike most books there,
never gets an occasional re-read. I re-read it a couple of times
early on, but haven't wanted to be put through the wringer again,
emotionally.

For reviews, our resident reviewer (James) reviewed it here, with a
bit of discussion, so that review is probably on his web-site. I
profoundly disagree with his review - it mis-categorizes the book as a
hard science fiction book, and then points out all the ways it doesn't
meet the standards of that category. IMO, that completely misses the
point - this is a book about a priest going through hell and trying to
reconcile his faith, his personal philosophy, and what the real world
seems to be showing him.

Chris

On 2023-08-14, Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> wrote:
> On 14/08/23 15:08, a425couple wrote:
>> Have you ever thought about a Twelve Step program for people who talk
>> too much?
>>
>> You could call it On and On Anon.
>>
>>
>> From page 43 in "The Sparrow" by Mary Doria Russell
>>
>> Has anybody ever posted about that book here?
>>
>
> You just did. I can't remember anyone else doing so.
>
> What a powerful book, posing the Catholic puzzle of whether great art
> justifies great suffering and questioning whether the fall of every
> sparrow is important or known. I loved it with that perverse pleasure a
> fan of horror fiction has when terrified but unable to stop reading. Not
> just terrified by the suffering but also outraged by the distortion of
> the truth. Her writing made it all too real. A 5 star book.
> I read it in 2018 and as I still remember it well, have not been brave
> enough to open the continuation novel Children of God.

I forgot to add my comments on _Children of God_, such as they are. I
only read it once, when it came out, and my memories are dim. Not bad,
but not excellent ala _The Sparrow_. More troubles back on Earth but
also some resolution. I wouldn't be afraid to read it.

Chris

On Monday, August 14, 2023 at 5:25:14 AM UTC-6, Chris Buckley wrote:

> For reviews, our resident reviewer (James) reviewed it here, with a
> bit of discussion, so that review is probably on his web-site.

Interestingly, it's here:

https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/core-problematic

as one of twenty books which should be on every true SF fan's
bookshelf, despite being problematic - along with Farnham's Freehold.

Given the description of the book in this thread, I wonder what he
could have found problematic about it, I'll have to read the review.

John Savard

On Monday, August 14, 2023 at 11:44:23 AM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Monday, August 14, 2023 at 5:25:14 AM UTC-6, Chris Buckley wrote:
>
> > For reviews, our resident reviewer (James) reviewed it here, with a
> > bit of discussion, so that review is probably on his web-site.
> Interestingly, it's here:
>
> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/core-problematic
>
> as one of twenty books which should be on every true SF fan's
> bookshelf, despite being problematic - along with Farnham's Freehold.
>
> Given the description of the book in this thread, I wonder what he
> could have found problematic about it, I'll have to read the review.

The review is not at that URL, just the list of twenty works, so my
curiosity will not be satisfied. However, one other review I found -
as part of a list of five reviews, so I thought it might have been his when
I clicked on the result -

https://www.tor.com/2020/09/21/five-books-where-assuming-aliens-are-just-like-you-might-get-you-killed/

does make note of a point also raised in this thread: that the book is
so tragic, so sad, that it's hard to read. Perhaps *that's* the problem, of
an entirely different kind than Farnham's Freehold's.

John Savard

On 2023-08-14, Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> On Monday, August 14, 2023 at 11:44:23 AM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:
>> On Monday, August 14, 2023 at 5:25:14 AM UTC-6, Chris Buckley wrote:
>>
>> > For reviews, our resident reviewer (James) reviewed it here, with a
>> > bit of discussion, so that review is probably on his web-site.
>> Interestingly, it's here:
>>
>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/core-problematic
>>
>> as one of twenty books which should be on every true SF fan's
>> bookshelf, despite being problematic - along with Farnham's Freehold.
>>
>> Given the description of the book in this thread, I wonder what he
>> could have found problematic about it, I'll have to read the review.
>
> The review is not at that URL, just the list of twenty works, so my
> curiosity will not be satisfied. However, one other review I found -
> as part of a list of five reviews, so I thought it might have been his when
> I clicked on the result -
>
> https://www.tor.com/2020/09/21/five-books-where-assuming-aliens-are-just-like-you-might-get-you-killed/
>
> does make note of a point also raised in this thread: that the book is
> so tragic, so sad, that it's hard to read. Perhaps *that's* the problem, of
> an entirely different kind than Farnham's Freehold's.

_The Sparrow_ has notable science problems; James was absolutely
correct about that. The spaceship was poor, the journey details were
poor, the target star system was impossible, details of planetary
exploration were far from scientific. Russell was clearly not an SF
fan. It was published as a mainstream book with the publisher trying
to stay away from SF as much as possible - until months after
publication when it was noticed where all the sales and attention were!

And, as you said, it is not a book for those readers who dislike angst
(many mainstream books are like that).

But, if you can tolerate angst, and aren't thrown off-keel by bad
science (when science is not the point of the book), it is of
award-winning quality. It is one of the SF books with the strongest
dichotomy of opinions about it, IMO. Most either strongly liked it or
strongly disliked it.

Chris

On 14/08/23 23:25, Chris Buckley wrote:
> On 2023-08-14, Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> wrote:
>> On 14/08/23 15:08, a425couple wrote:
>>> Have you ever thought about a Twelve Step program for people who
>>> talk too much?
>>>
>>> You could call it On and On Anon.
>>>
>>>
>>> From page 43 in "The Sparrow" by Mary Doria Russell
>>>
>>> Has anybody ever posted about that book here?
>>>
>>
>> You just did. I can't remember anyone else doing so.
>>
snip
>
> Titus, you've previously posted about it in sf.written! And I have
> posted several times throughout the years (eg 2017), including in
> response to you. I append my comments from an earlier post.
>
> Chris
>

Thank you. My apologies. Since 2014 I have kept a list of books read, a
rating and sometimes a sentence long description. A quick look at 2018
titles and most of them are meaningless so I don't even remember most of
what I have read without prompting let alone rasfw posts. I have no
trouble remembering reading The Sparrow but had even forgotten James'
criticism of the science.

On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 1:20:20 AM UTC-4, Titus G wrote:
> On 14/08/23 23:25, Chris Buckley wrote:
> > On 2023-08-14, Titus G <no...@nowhere.com> wrote:
> >> On 14/08/23 15:08, a425couple wrote:
> >>> Have you ever thought about a Twelve Step program for people who
> >>> talk too much?
> >>>
> >>> You could call it On and On Anon.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> From page 43 in "The Sparrow" by Mary Doria Russell
> >>>
> >>> Has anybody ever posted about that book here?
> >>>
> >>
> >> You just did. I can't remember anyone else doing so.
> >>
> snip
> >
> > Titus, you've previously posted about it in sf.written! And I have
> > posted several times throughout the years (eg 2017), including in
> > response to you. I append my comments from an earlier post.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> Thank you. My apologies. Since 2014 I have kept a list of books read, a
> rating and sometimes a sentence long description. A quick look at 2018
> titles and most of them are meaningless so I don't even remember most of
> what I have read without prompting let alone rasfw posts. I have no
> trouble remembering reading The Sparrow but had even forgotten James'
> criticism of the science.

I never read THE SPARROW or its sequel, though a co-worker at the bookstore
I worked for was nuts for it. She was a whip-smart, very cute theology student
working on her MA at my alma mater: Marquette, where Jesuits dwell! l had been
an atheist for some time, so besides the bad juju that comes from chasing cute
humans one works with, I resolved to stay in the "friend zone." A pity that she
was so ghod-minded. She had an excellent personality. I was probably too old
for her, anyway.

When she talked the book up to me, I mentioned that she might want to read
Clarke's "The Star."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Star_(Clarke_short_story)

See also: James Blish

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Case_of_Conscience

Jesuits....IN SPAAAACCCEEE!!!!!

--
Kevin R

On 22/08/23 14:07, Kevrob wrote:
>>>> On 14/08/23 15:08, a425couple wrote:
>>>>> Have you ever thought about a Twelve Step program for people who
>>>>> talk too much?
>>>>>
>>>>> You could call it On and On Anon.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From page 43 in "The Sparrow" by Mary Doria Russell
>>>>>
snip
>
> I never read THE SPARROW or its sequel, though a co-worker at the bookstore
> I worked for was nuts for it. She was a whip-smart, very cute theology student
> working on her MA at my alma mater: Marquette, where Jesuits dwell! l had been
> an atheist for some time, so besides the bad juju that comes from chasing cute
> humans one works with, I resolved to stay in the "friend zone." A pity that she
> was so ghod-minded. She had an excellent personality. I was probably too old
> for her, anyway.
>
> When she talked the book up to me, I mentioned that she might want to read
> Clarke's "The Star."
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Star_(Clarke_short_story)

I have forgotten that but have all those old HUGO winners so will dig it
out.

>
> See also: James Blish
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Case_of_Conscience
>

Yes, that was an interesting question and a cleverly plotted non answer.
Again, I had forgotten it, but the wiki fixed that, thank you.

But neither as well written as The Sparrow and nowhere near the depth of
meaning as well as despair.

On 23/08/23 17:35, Titus G wrote:
> On 22/08/23 14:07, Kevrob wrote:
>>
>> When she talked the book up to me, I mentioned that she might want to read
>> Clarke's "The Star."
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Star_(Clarke_short_story)
>
> I have forgotten that but have all those old HUGO winners so will dig it
> out.
>

Star of Bethlehem!