In article <kmsg7gFae8pU1@mid.individual.net>,
Ted Nolan <tednolan> <tednolan> wrote:
>In article <ueb04g$25k2t$1@epsilon3.eternal-september.org>,
>Jay E. Morris <morrisj@epsilon3.comcon> wrote:
>>On 9/18/2023 4:34 PM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Monday, September 18, 2023 at 3:16:13 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>> In article <jisggi9ai383je6kq...@4ax.com>,
>>>> Paul S Person <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 17 Sep 2023 20:04:43 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
>>>>> Heydt) wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In article <av7egi1dvpvu6qs0o...@4ax.com>,
>>>>>> Paul S Person <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sat, 16 Sep 2023 19:33:34 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
>>>>>>> Heydt) wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In article <39kbgi9582hdehegb...@4ax.com>,
>>>>>>>> Paul S Person <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 15 Sep 2023 16:53:34 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>>>>>>>>> <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> We have six million deer, four million feral hogs, and a billion
>>>>>>>>>> squirrels in Texas. They would be supper, lunch, and breakfast.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> While the ammo held out, that is.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Although the deer, at least, might be killable enough with a
>>>>>>>>> bow-and-arrow to make that work without Katniss-level archery skill
>>>>>>>>> required for squirrels. The feral hogs, OTOH, would probably just be
>>>>>>>>> annoyed by the pin-pricks.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> (Hal Heydt)
>>>>>>>> Depends on the bow. People have hunted deer with bows as light
>>>>>>>> as 30 lb. (note: bow draw weights are generally given at a 28"
>>>>>>>> draw.) For boar...well boar spears aren't hard to make.
>>>>>>>> Basically you want a crossbar just behind the spear point,
>>>>>>>> though you still need the correct technique. There have been SCA
>>>>>>>> boar hunts on Catalina Island. I think the local authorities
>>>>>>>> insist on someone with a gun for back up.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The grizzly bears in the California Mueseum of Natural History
>>>>>>>> (used to be in Golden Gate Park) were taken with bow (and a
>>>>>>>> person with a gun for backup). One of them--just out of
>>>>>>>> hibernation--weighed 1100 pounds.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In the early 1950s, Howard Hill, who did the archery stunts for
>>>>>>>> the Errol Flynn _Robin Hood_...including shooting the rope in two
>>>>>>>> in one take, went big game hunting in Africa. Four shots got him
>>>>>>>> 3 elephants, one being an adult bull, somewhere around 5.5 tons.
>>>>>>>> Hill used a 115 lb. fiberglass and bamboo laminate longbow.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So... Yes. Big game can be taken with bow and arrow.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So, that takes care of the feral hogs. Well, provided the proper
>>>>>>> technique is recovered and mastered.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [Hal Heydt]
>>>>>> Just ask around in any SCA group, and such ggroups are all over
>>>>>> the place.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ah, but will the SCA groups still be in business (so to speak) long
>>>>> enough after the catastrophe for the ammo to have run out and their
>>>>> knowledge finally be of practical use in hunting?
>>>> [Hal Heydt]
>>>> There exist active bow hunters now. Many states have specific
>>>> bow hunting seasons. The knowledge may be spread wider than you
>>>> realize. Plus there's at least as good a chance that SCA groups
>>>> will survive as there is for anyone else.
>>>>>>> But what about the squirrels? Are the survivors doomed to a world
>>>>>>> without breakfast?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Blunts. Usually referred to as "bird blunts". Plus, of course,
>>>>>> various type of snare or trap or even--with lots of
>>>>>> practice--sling.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you know how.
>>>> I knew one SCA member who grew up in a small town and, due to
>>>> extreme bordom, would go to the edge of town and practice with a
>>>> sling. As an adult, she was extremely accurate with it.
>>>>> I've always felt that an organized group of survivors would be
>>>>> well-advised to raid libraries and book stores for books on ancient
>>>>> tech: animal tracking/killing/cooking, log cabin (or other pre-modern
>>>>> forms of buildings) construction, forging tools, making pottery, using
>>>>> plows, animal husbandry, veggie/herb gardens, wind/water mills with
>>>>> the energy converted from circular to linear motion -- stuff like
>>>>> that.
>>>> Many of those skills, plus extensive libaries, exist within the
>>>> SCA, among other groups. The Boy Scouts teach a number of those
>>>> skills. And...you missed sheep shearing and spinning. (I can
>>>> use both a drop spindle and a flyer spinning wheel. I know the
>>>> theory, and could probably apply it in short order, to use a
>>>> walking wheel.)
>>>>> And, in case of roaming bands of savages appearing: wooden outer
>>>>> walls, moats and other impediments (caltrops or similar devices),
>>>>> defensive weapons including artillery (bows/arrows, slings, catapults
>>>>> of one sort or another), boiling oil (which can come from some
>>>>> plants/animals) to give their "guest" a warm reception. Cloth armor
>>>>> (padded) should be possible long before chain mail or more advanced
>>>>> forms are. Swords and shields as well.
>>>> There is at least one company in the Ukraine that was doing metal
>>>> work for the SCA that dropped all their orders to start making
>>>> caltrops, including the large variety usually referred to as tank
>>>> traps. Quilted armor is used in the SCA, so the knowledge to
>>>> make it is there. Mail is rather easy, though it's a lot easier
>>>> if you know about wire drawing dies than if you have to hand
>>>> forge wire to make links.
>>>>> All, hopefully, discussed/illustrated/explained in various books
>>>>> available locally for (literally) the taking.
>>>> One of the books I have is on 18th cnetury gun founding. It's
>>>> full of a set of period illustrations of all the steps for making
>>>> a bronze gun barrel.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The 'Foxfire' series may be helpful. Basically, they contain information
>>> for homesteading at a mid-19th century tech level.
>>>
>>> pt
>>
>>Lots of survival books out there, like "How to Stay Alive in the Woods:
>>A Complete Guide to Food, Shelter and Self-Preservation Anywhere".
>>
>>I wouldn't suggest the kindle version though.
>
>"Chapter 5: How to strike a spark from flint with your e-reader."
>--
>columbiaclosings.com
>What's not in Columbia anymore..

Dang it! Missed the obvious "kindle" joke!
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

In article <kmsg7gFae8pU1@mid.individual.net>,
Ted Nolan <tednolan> <tednolan> wrote:
>In article <ueb04g$25k2t$1@epsilon3.eternal-september.org>,
>Jay E. Morris <morrisj@epsilon3.comcon> wrote:
>>On 9/18/2023 4:34 PM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Monday, September 18, 2023 at 3:16:13 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>> In article <jisggi9ai383je6kq...@4ax.com>,
>>>> Paul S Person <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 17 Sep 2023 20:04:43 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
>>>>> Heydt) wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In article <av7egi1dvpvu6qs0o...@4ax.com>,
>>>>>> Paul S Person <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sat, 16 Sep 2023 19:33:34 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
>>>>>>> Heydt) wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In article <39kbgi9582hdehegb...@4ax.com>,
>>>>>>>> Paul S Person <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 15 Sep 2023 16:53:34 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>>>>>>>>> <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> We have six million deer, four million feral hogs, and a billion
>>>>>>>>>> squirrels in Texas. They would be supper, lunch, and breakfast.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> While the ammo held out, that is.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Although the deer, at least, might be killable enough with a
>>>>>>>>> bow-and-arrow to make that work without Katniss-level archery skill
>>>>>>>>> required for squirrels. The feral hogs, OTOH, would probably just be
>>>>>>>>> annoyed by the pin-pricks.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> (Hal Heydt)
>>>>>>>> Depends on the bow. People have hunted deer with bows as light
>>>>>>>> as 30 lb. (note: bow draw weights are generally given at a 28"
>>>>>>>> draw.) For boar...well boar spears aren't hard to make.
>>>>>>>> Basically you want a crossbar just behind the spear point,
>>>>>>>> though you still need the correct technique. There have been SCA
>>>>>>>> boar hunts on Catalina Island. I think the local authorities
>>>>>>>> insist on someone with a gun for back up.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The grizzly bears in the California Mueseum of Natural History
>>>>>>>> (used to be in Golden Gate Park) were taken with bow (and a
>>>>>>>> person with a gun for backup). One of them--just out of
>>>>>>>> hibernation--weighed 1100 pounds.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In the early 1950s, Howard Hill, who did the archery stunts for
>>>>>>>> the Errol Flynn _Robin Hood_...including shooting the rope in two
>>>>>>>> in one take, went big game hunting in Africa. Four shots got him
>>>>>>>> 3 elephants, one being an adult bull, somewhere around 5.5 tons.
>>>>>>>> Hill used a 115 lb. fiberglass and bamboo laminate longbow.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So... Yes. Big game can be taken with bow and arrow.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So, that takes care of the feral hogs. Well, provided the proper
>>>>>>> technique is recovered and mastered.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [Hal Heydt]
>>>>>> Just ask around in any SCA group, and such ggroups are all over
>>>>>> the place.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ah, but will the SCA groups still be in business (so to speak) long
>>>>> enough after the catastrophe for the ammo to have run out and their
>>>>> knowledge finally be of practical use in hunting?
>>>> [Hal Heydt]
>>>> There exist active bow hunters now. Many states have specific
>>>> bow hunting seasons. The knowledge may be spread wider than you
>>>> realize. Plus there's at least as good a chance that SCA groups
>>>> will survive as there is for anyone else.
>>>>>>> But what about the squirrels? Are the survivors doomed to a world
>>>>>>> without breakfast?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Blunts. Usually referred to as "bird blunts". Plus, of course,
>>>>>> various type of snare or trap or even--with lots of
>>>>>> practice--sling.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you know how.
>>>> I knew one SCA member who grew up in a small town and, due to
>>>> extreme bordom, would go to the edge of town and practice with a
>>>> sling. As an adult, she was extremely accurate with it.
>>>>> I've always felt that an organized group of survivors would be
>>>>> well-advised to raid libraries and book stores for books on ancient
>>>>> tech: animal tracking/killing/cooking, log cabin (or other pre-modern
>>>>> forms of buildings) construction, forging tools, making pottery, using
>>>>> plows, animal husbandry, veggie/herb gardens, wind/water mills with
>>>>> the energy converted from circular to linear motion -- stuff like
>>>>> that.
>>>> Many of those skills, plus extensive libaries, exist within the
>>>> SCA, among other groups. The Boy Scouts teach a number of those
>>>> skills. And...you missed sheep shearing and spinning. (I can
>>>> use both a drop spindle and a flyer spinning wheel. I know the
>>>> theory, and could probably apply it in short order, to use a
>>>> walking wheel.)
>>>>> And, in case of roaming bands of savages appearing: wooden outer
>>>>> walls, moats and other impediments (caltrops or similar devices),
>>>>> defensive weapons including artillery (bows/arrows, slings, catapults
>>>>> of one sort or another), boiling oil (which can come from some
>>>>> plants/animals) to give their "guest" a warm reception. Cloth armor
>>>>> (padded) should be possible long before chain mail or more advanced
>>>>> forms are. Swords and shields as well.
>>>> There is at least one company in the Ukraine that was doing metal
>>>> work for the SCA that dropped all their orders to start making
>>>> caltrops, including the large variety usually referred to as tank
>>>> traps. Quilted armor is used in the SCA, so the knowledge to
>>>> make it is there. Mail is rather easy, though it's a lot easier
>>>> if you know about wire drawing dies than if you have to hand
>>>> forge wire to make links.
>>>>> All, hopefully, discussed/illustrated/explained in various books
>>>>> available locally for (literally) the taking.
>>>> One of the books I have is on 18th cnetury gun founding. It's
>>>> full of a set of period illustrations of all the steps for making
>>>> a bronze gun barrel.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The 'Foxfire' series may be helpful. Basically, they contain information
>>> for homesteading at a mid-19th century tech level.
>>>
>>> pt
>>
>>Lots of survival books out there, like "How to Stay Alive in the Woods:
>>A Complete Guide to Food, Shelter and Self-Preservation Anywhere".
>>
>>I wouldn't suggest the kindle version though.
>
>"Chapter 5: How to strike a spark from flint with your e-reader."

[Hal Heydt]
Against the time it will take to find a decent flint supply,
stock up on mag blocks ahead of time.

On Monday, 18 September 2023 at 17:05:04 UTC+1, Paul S Person wrote:
> I've always felt that an organized group of survivors would be
> well-advised to raid libraries and book stores for books on ancient
> tech: animal tracking/killing/cooking, log cabin (or other pre-modern
> forms of buildings) construction, forging tools, making pottery, using
> plows, animal husbandry, veggie/herb gardens, wind/water mills with
> the energy converted from circular to linear motion -- stuff like
> that.

/Raiding/ libraries? I guess for you, when civilization
falls over, it's /over/. :-(

And, yeah, the membership records were on computer.
But, even so!

On Thu, 21 Sep 2023 11:36:31 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
<rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:

>On Monday, 18 September 2023 at 17:05:04 UTC+1, Paul S Person wrote:
>> I've always felt that an organized group of survivors would be
>> well-advised to raid libraries and book stores for books on ancient
>> tech: animal tracking/killing/cooking, log cabin (or other pre-modern
>> forms of buildings) construction, forging tools, making pottery, using
>> plows, animal husbandry, veggie/herb gardens, wind/water mills with
>> the energy converted from circular to linear motion -- stuff like
>> that.
>
>/Raiding/ libraries? I guess for you, when civilization
>falls over, it's /over/. :-(
>
>And, yeah, the membership records were on computer.
>But, even so!

Yes, raiding libraries/book stores for useful books. Before the mice
and insects eat them all. Books don't last forever, even when
protected. And these won't be protected at all.

I suppose a group here or there might be large enough and situated
well enough to incorporate a library into the area they control. And
find some cats to chase off the mice, at least.

And, as others have pointed out, other skills (shearing carding,
dyeing, spinning, weaving, cutting to make homespun clothes) could
also be added. Provided there were sheep, goats, silk worms, flax, or
other fibrous plants available, of course.

The question is, how much work and knowledge would it take for a
community to reach a reasonable standard of living -- say, that of
Rome in the 1st century AD. As opposed to dwelling in caves wrapped in
ill-cured animal skins with keeping the fire going your number one
concern.

Curing/cutting/sewing/otherwise preparing animal skins would, of
course, be another field of interest.

So /many/ things to relearn. So little time before the snow falls. Or
the raiders appear to take everything you have.

What, you think that, after the great disaster, you'll just go to the
mall and stock up? Maybe once, before it's completely looted.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"