Five SF Classics Featuring Soon-To-Be Obsolete Spaceships

Science fiction stories for which Stan Rogers' Last Watch on the Midland
would be appropriate theme music.

https://www.tor.com/2023/10/10/five-sf-classics-featuring-soon-to-be-obsolete-spaceships/
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

jdnicoll@panix.com (James Nicoll) writes:
>Five SF Classics Featuring Soon-To-Be Obsolete Spaceships

>
>https://www.tor.com/2023/10/10/five-sf-classics-featuring-soon-to-be-obsolete-spaceships/

Actually, it is possible to warm one's hands over a solid-state amplifier.

On 2023-10-10, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:

> Actually, it is possible to warm one's hands over a solid-state amplifier.

I mean, my stereo amp sucks 25 watts just for the pleasure of being
switched on. As did the one before. That's enough for a bit of
hand warming.

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

James Nicoll wrote:
> Five SF Classics Featuring Soon-To-Be Obsolete Spaceships
>
> Science fiction stories for which Stan Rogers' Last Watch on the Midland
> would be appropriate theme music.
>
>
> https://www.tor.com/2023/10/10/five-sf-classics-featuring-soon-to-be-obsolete-spaceships/

Scanners really do live in vain.

--
-Jack

Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> writes:
>On 2023-10-10, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>
>> Actually, it is possible to warm one's hands over a solid-state amplifier.
>
>I mean, my stereo amp sucks 25 watts just for the pleasure of being
>switched on. As did the one before. That's enough for a bit of
>hand warming.

My receiver (RX-A3070) has 9 channels of amplification at various power
levels. Maximum effective output power single channel at 1khz is
230W. When configured for three zones (front porch 2.0, Living Room 5.1,
back yard 2.0) it does generate some heat.

On Tuesday, October 10, 2023 at 10:40:54 AM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) writes:
> >Five SF Classics Featuring Soon-To-Be Obsolete Spaceships
>
> >
> >https://www.tor.com/2023/10/10/five-sf-classics-featuring-soon-to-be-obsolete-spaceships/
>
> Actually, it is possible to warm one's hands over a solid-state amplifier..

When I worked at Dalhousie University I had an office whose outer walls were windows, giving
a fine view of the Atlantic on one side, and the Northwest Arm on another.

It was also single glazed, and let out a lot of heat from a building which in winter was
not warm at the best of times (I wore a scarf to seminars in winter - one day it froze
to the window behind me).

Luckily I had a large Sun computer in the office. While typing with one hand I could rest the other
on the warm, warm top of the computer, then switch. I got much better at left-handed typing.

I haven't turned the heat on yet this fall, and it's about 60F in here. My current computer is
utterly useless at hand-warming. I may have to buy a heater.

William Hyde

On Tuesday, October 10, 2023 at 3:07:35 PM UTC+1, James Nicoll wrote:
> Five SF Classics Featuring Soon-To-Be Obsolete Spaceships
>
> Science fiction stories for which Stan Rogers' Last Watch on the Midland
> would be appropriate theme music.
>
>
> https://www.tor.com/2023/10/10/five-sf-classics-featuring-soon-to-be-obsolete-spaceships/
> --
> My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
> My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
> My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
> My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
I quite liked Christopher Nuttall's Ark Royal series, although I see there are new books in it I have not read yet. The Ark Royal had become pretty much a museum spaceship, with an equally washed up commander, but it turned out to be better protected against the unexpected alien threat than more modern ships, and its commander achieved redemption.

In article <8844de76-8424-4f89-a0aa-31b965da38fbn@googlegroups.com>,
Andrew McDowell <mcdowell_ag@sky.com> wrote:
>On Tuesday, October 10, 2023 at 3:07:35 PM UTC+1, James Nicoll wrote:
>> Five SF Classics Featuring Soon-To-Be Obsolete Spaceships
>>
>> Science fiction stories for which Stan Rogers' Last Watch on the Midland
>> would be appropriate theme music.
>>
>>
>>
>https://www.tor.com/2023/10/10/five-sf-classics-featuring-soon-to-be-obsolete-spaceships/
>> --
>> My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
>> My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
>> My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
>> My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
>I quite liked Christopher Nuttall's Ark Royal series, although I see
>there are new books in it I have not read yet. The Ark Royal had become
>pretty much a museum spaceship, with an equally washed up commander, but
>it turned out to be better protected against the unexpected alien threat
>than more modern ships, and its commander achieved redemption.

Which, of course, was the plot of the Battlestar Galactica reboot.
Not that there's anything wrong with that -- I thought it was decent.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

On Tuesday, October 10, 2023 at 7:01:14 PM UTC+1, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> In article <8844de76-8424-4f89...@googlegroups.com>,
> Andrew McDowell <mcdow...@sky.com> wrote:
> >On Tuesday, October 10, 2023 at 3:07:35 PM UTC+1, James Nicoll wrote:
> >> Five SF Classics Featuring Soon-To-Be Obsolete Spaceships
> >>
> >> Science fiction stories for which Stan Rogers' Last Watch on the Midland
> >> would be appropriate theme music.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >https://www.tor.com/2023/10/10/five-sf-classics-featuring-soon-to-be-obsolete-spaceships/
> >> --
> >> My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
> >> My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
> >> My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
> >> My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
> >I quite liked Christopher Nuttall's Ark Royal series, although I see
> >there are new books in it I have not read yet. The Ark Royal had become
> >pretty much a museum spaceship, with an equally washed up commander, but
> >it turned out to be better protected against the unexpected alien threat
> >than more modern ships, and its commander achieved redemption.
> Which, of course, was the plot of the Battlestar Galactica reboot.
> Not that there's anything wrong with that -- I thought it was decent.
> --
> columbiaclosings.com
> What's not in Columbia anymore..
My takeaway from the 1978 Battlestar Galactica is that it was the demonstration of the converse of "If you want peace, prepare for war." Politicians who might most generously be described as well-intentioned idiots weaken the defenses of a state to an extent that attracts a surprise attack. Alas, events have increased the plausibility of this scenario.

On 10/10/2023 09.07, James Nicoll wrote:
> Five SF Classics Featuring Soon-To-Be Obsolete Spaceships
>
> Science fiction stories for which Stan Rogers' Last Watch on the Midland
> would be appropriate theme music.

> https://www.tor.com/2023/10/10/five-sf-classics-featuring-soon-to-be-obsolete-spaceships/

"All the Bridges Rusting" was the story that came to my mind when
we had a "spaceship leapfrog" thread here, just last week.

Others that come to mind now (although they might not align precisely
with "spaceship obsolescence") are:

"Outward Bound" by Norman Spinrad. (spoilers) Earth is the center of a
trade empire. It maintains its advantage over the other planets, because
it's based on STL/cold sleep. By the time that a new technology reaches
a planet, Earth has already developed something new. Then a trader picks
up a scientist who is on the verge of developing an Overdrive. During
the next leg of the trade route, the scientist stays out of cold sleep,
finishes the theory, then wakes the ship's engineer to implement it.
This not only ends Earths hold on the outer planets, but also the traders'
way of life.

_Warrior's Apprentice_ by Lois McMaster Bujold. Spaceship pilots use
"Necklin rods" to pilot (or navigate or something). These are actually
surgically embedded. When new versions come out, it's a pricey upgrade.
When newer ships only work with the latest and greatest, it sucks to
be a pilot who can't afford an upgrade. During a visit to his mother's
home planet, Miles Vorkosigian encounters such a pilot and offers to
help him out. Hijinks ensue.

--
Michael F. Stemper
Psalm 82:3-4

In article <8844de76-8424-4f89-a0aa-31b965da38fbn@googlegroups.com>,
Andrew McDowell <mcdowell_ag@sky.com> wrote:
>On Tuesday, October 10, 2023 at 3:07:35 PM UTC+1, James Nicoll wrote:
>> Five SF Classics Featuring Soon-To-Be Obsolete Spaceships
>>
>> Science fiction stories for which Stan Rogers' Last Watch on the Midland
>> would be appropriate theme music.
>>
>>
>>
>https://www.tor.com/2023/10/10/five-sf-classics-featuring-soon-to-be-obsolete-spaceships/
>> --
>> My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
>> My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
>> My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
>> My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
>I quite liked Christopher Nuttall's Ark Royal series, although I see
>there are new books in it I have not read yet. The Ark Royal had become
>pretty much a museum spaceship, with an equally washed up commander, but
>it turned out to be better protected against the unexpected alien threat
>than more modern ships, and its commander achieved redemption.

[Hal Heydt]
Not like that hasn't happened in the real world (as regards
ships, not necessarily their commanders). When one of the
refurbished WW2 Iowa class battleships was sent to Gulf, some
clueless reporter asked the commanding officer what he would do
if the ship were to be hit by an Exocet missile. He replied that
he would do what his predecessor did in WW2 when the ship was hit by
a kamikazi. Send out a fire crew to put out the fire, a sweeping
crew to remove the debris, and paint crew to paint over the
scorched spot.

On Tuesday, October 10, 2023 at 5:36:19 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <8844de76-8424-4f89...@googlegroups.com>,
> Andrew McDowell <mcdow...@sky.com> wrote:
> >On Tuesday, October 10, 2023 at 3:07:35 PM UTC+1, James Nicoll wrote:
> >> Five SF Classics Featuring Soon-To-Be Obsolete Spaceships
> >>
> >> Science fiction stories for which Stan Rogers' Last Watch on the Midland
> >> would be appropriate theme music.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >https://www.tor.com/2023/10/10/five-sf-classics-featuring-soon-to-be-obsolete-spaceships/
> >> --
> >> My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
> >> My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
> >> My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
> >> My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
> >I quite liked Christopher Nuttall's Ark Royal series, although I see
> >there are new books in it I have not read yet. The Ark Royal had become
> >pretty much a museum spaceship, with an equally washed up commander, but
> >it turned out to be better protected against the unexpected alien threat
> >than more modern ships, and its commander achieved redemption.
> [Hal Heydt]
> Not like that hasn't happened in the real world (as regards
> ships, not necessarily their commanders). When one of the
> refurbished WW2 Iowa class battleships was sent to Gulf, some
> clueless reporter asked the commanding officer what he would do
> if the ship were to be hit by an Exocet missile. He replied that
> he would do what his predecessor did in WW2 when the ship was hit by
> a kamikazi. Send out a fire crew to put out the fire, a sweeping
> crew to remove the debris, and paint crew to paint over the
> scorched spot.

By 1800 the 64 gun ship of the line was verging on obsolete, much smaller
than a British 74 and far smaller than a French 74. But the UK had a lot
of them and it wasn't practical to take those units out of the fleet in the
middle of a war - three fought at Trafalgar on the British side and one
on the Spanish.

Some were made into razees, with the top deck cut off. In this role they
were like very powerful frigates, with heavy guns and the (wooden) armour
of a ship of the line. I can't think of an equivalent in SF.

William Hyde

In article <70952f56-abb6-4d0e-b957-e6ec5b01deban@googlegroups.com>,
William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Tuesday, October 10, 2023 at 5:36:19 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> In article <8844de76-8424-4f89...@googlegroups.com>,
>> Andrew McDowell <mcdow...@sky.com> wrote:
>> >On Tuesday, October 10, 2023 at 3:07:35 PM UTC+1, James Nicoll wrote:
>> >> Five SF Classics Featuring Soon-To-Be Obsolete Spaceships
>> >>
>> >> Science fiction stories for which Stan Rogers' Last Watch on the Midland
>> >> would be appropriate theme music.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>>https://www.tor.com/2023/10/10/five-sf-classics-featuring-soon-to-be-obsolete-spaceships/
>> >> --
>> >> My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
>> >> My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
>> >> My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
>> >> My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
>> >I quite liked Christopher Nuttall's Ark Royal series, although I see
>> >there are new books in it I have not read yet. The Ark Royal had become
>> >pretty much a museum spaceship, with an equally washed up commander, but
>> >it turned out to be better protected against the unexpected alien threat
>> >than more modern ships, and its commander achieved redemption.
>> [Hal Heydt]
>> Not like that hasn't happened in the real world (as regards
>> ships, not necessarily their commanders). When one of the
>> refurbished WW2 Iowa class battleships was sent to Gulf, some
>> clueless reporter asked the commanding officer what he would do
>> if the ship were to be hit by an Exocet missile. He replied that
>> he would do what his predecessor did in WW2 when the ship was hit by
>> a kamikazi. Send out a fire crew to put out the fire, a sweeping
>> crew to remove the debris, and paint crew to paint over the
>> scorched spot.
>
>By 1800 the 64 gun ship of the line was verging on obsolete, much smaller
>than a British 74 and far smaller than a French 74. But the UK had a lot
>of them and it wasn't practical to take those units out of the fleet in the
>middle of a war - three fought at Trafalgar on the British side and one
>on the Spanish.
>
>Some were made into razees, with the top deck cut off. In this role they
>were like very powerful frigates, with heavy guns and the (wooden) armour
>of a ship of the line. I can't think of an equivalent in SF.

[Hal Heydt]
The British sometimes claimed the the big American frigates--like
the Constitution--were cut down 74s. They weren't. They were
built as frigates but had very good lines (from the US tradition
of blockade runners, and--probably--privateers) and exceptionally
well designed and built hulls.

In article <s2C0qp.17yJ@kithrup.com>,
djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:

> In article <8844de76-8424-4f89-a0aa-31b965da38fbn@googlegroups.com>,
> Andrew McDowell <mcdowell_ag@sky.com> wrote:
> >On Tuesday, October 10, 2023 at 3:07:35 PM UTC+1, James Nicoll wrote:
> >> Five SF Classics Featuring Soon-To-Be Obsolete Spaceships
> >>
> >> Science fiction stories for which Stan Rogers' Last Watch on the Midland
> >> would be appropriate theme music.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >https://www.tor.com/2023/10/10/five-sf-classics-featuring-soon-to-be-obsolete
> >-spaceships/
> >> --
> >> My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
> >> My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
> >> My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
> >> My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
> >I quite liked Christopher Nuttall's Ark Royal series, although I see
> >there are new books in it I have not read yet. The Ark Royal had become
> >pretty much a museum spaceship, with an equally washed up commander, but
> >it turned out to be better protected against the unexpected alien threat
> >than more modern ships, and its commander achieved redemption.
>
> [Hal Heydt]
> Not like that hasn't happened in the real world (as regards
> ships, not necessarily their commanders). When one of the
> refurbished WW2 Iowa class battleships was sent to Gulf, some
> clueless reporter asked the commanding officer what he would do
> if the ship were to be hit by an Exocet missile. He replied that
> he would do what his predecessor did in WW2 when the ship was hit by
> a kamikazi. Send out a fire crew to put out the fire, a sweeping
> crew to remove the debris, and paint crew to paint over the
> scorched spot.

His predecessor also ordered a military funeral for the pilot (whose
body was found in the debris), see
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_M._Callaghan

--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
�-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward robertaw@drizzle.com

On Tue, 10 Oct 2023 17:43:27 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

>Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> writes:
>>On 2023-10-10, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>>
>>> Actually, it is possible to warm one's hands over a solid-state amplifier.
>>
>>I mean, my stereo amp sucks 25 watts just for the pleasure of being
>>switched on. As did the one before. That's enough for a bit of
>>hand warming.
>
>My receiver (RX-A3070) has 9 channels of amplification at various power
>levels. Maximum effective output power single channel at 1khz is
>230W. When configured for three zones (front porch 2.0, Living Room 5.1,
>back yard 2.0) it does generate some heat.

Helpful in Winter, less so in Summer.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

On Tuesday, October 10, 2023 at 10:46:19 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <70952f56-abb6-4d0e...@googlegroups.com>,
> William Hyde <wthyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Tuesday, October 10, 2023 at 5:36:19 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> >> In article <8844de76-8424-4f89...@googlegroups.com>,
> >> Andrew McDowell <mcdow...@sky.com> wrote:
> >> >On Tuesday, October 10, 2023 at 3:07:35 PM UTC+1, James Nicoll wrote:
> >> >> Five SF Classics Featuring Soon-To-Be Obsolete Spaceships
> >> >>
> >> >> Science fiction stories for which Stan Rogers' Last Watch on the Midland
> >> >> would be appropriate theme music.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >>
> >>https://www.tor.com/2023/10/10/five-sf-classics-featuring-soon-to-be-obsolete-spaceships/
> >> >> --
> >> >> My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
> >> >> My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
> >> >> My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
> >> >> My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
> >> >I quite liked Christopher Nuttall's Ark Royal series, although I see
> >> >there are new books in it I have not read yet. The Ark Royal had become
> >> >pretty much a museum spaceship, with an equally washed up commander, but
> >> >it turned out to be better protected against the unexpected alien threat
> >> >than more modern ships, and its commander achieved redemption.
> >> [Hal Heydt]
> >> Not like that hasn't happened in the real world (as regards
> >> ships, not necessarily their commanders). When one of the
> >> refurbished WW2 Iowa class battleships was sent to Gulf, some
> >> clueless reporter asked the commanding officer what he would do
> >> if the ship were to be hit by an Exocet missile. He replied that
> >> he would do what his predecessor did in WW2 when the ship was hit by
> >> a kamikazi. Send out a fire crew to put out the fire, a sweeping
> >> crew to remove the debris, and paint crew to paint over the
> >> scorched spot.
> >
> >By 1800 the 64 gun ship of the line was verging on obsolete, much smaller
> >than a British 74 and far smaller than a French 74. But the UK had a lot
> >of them and it wasn't practical to take those units out of the fleet in the
> >middle of a war - three fought at Trafalgar on the British side and one
> >on the Spanish.
> >
> >Some were made into razees, with the top deck cut off. In this role they
> >were like very powerful frigates, with heavy guns and the (wooden) armour
> >of a ship of the line. I can't think of an equivalent in SF.
> [Hal Heydt]
> The British sometimes claimed the the big American frigates--like
> the Constitution--were cut down 74s. They weren't.

The misinformation I first heard was slightly different, that they were laid
down as 74s but altered in mid-construction. While still wrong, that is
far more plausible than razeeing a new 74.

They were
> built as frigates but had very good lines (from the US tradition
> of blockade runners, and--probably--privateers) and exceptionally
> well designed and built hulls.

But as you say, they were carefully planned from the outset to be fast enough
to outrun ships of the line, and powerful enough to defeat any frigate
then existing.

As ships of the line grew larger, and technology improved, a niche opened up in ship design,
useful for all sea powers but particularly useful for the US. You didn't need a SOL to take on
the Barbary states, but a regular-sized frigate could find itself in trouble.

Further to the idea of obsolete vessels, as late as 1798 the British still had a few 50
gunned two deckers in service. They built one as late as 1780 and you have to wonder
what spectacular corruption allowed that to happen.

One of them made a good fight against a French 74 but was captured. The mainmast of the 74 was hit
almost thirty times, but the light armament of the 50s upper deck didn't throw heavy enough shells to
take it down. Had the 74 been fighting the Constitution with its 24 pounder carronades on the upper deck
I think the result might have been very different.

William Hyde

In article <1920e81c-645b-4939-b17b-46cc27e93b88n@googlegroups.com>,
William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Tuesday, October 10, 2023 at 10:46:19 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> In article <70952f56-abb6-4d0e...@googlegroups.com>,
>> William Hyde <wthyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >On Tuesday, October 10, 2023 at 5:36:19 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> >> In article <8844de76-8424-4f89...@googlegroups.com>,
>> >> Andrew McDowell <mcdow...@sky.com> wrote:
>> >> >On Tuesday, October 10, 2023 at 3:07:35 PM UTC+1, James Nicoll wrote:
>> >> >> Five SF Classics Featuring Soon-To-Be Obsolete Spaceships
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Science fiction stories for which Stan Rogers' Last Watch on the
>Midland
>> >> >> would be appropriate theme music.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >>
>>
>>>https://www.tor.com/2023/10/10/five-sf-classics-featuring-soon-to-be-obsolete-spaceships/
>> >> >> --
>> >> >> My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
>> >> >> My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
>> >> >> My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
>> >> >> My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
>> >> >I quite liked Christopher Nuttall's Ark Royal series, although I see
>> >> >there are new books in it I have not read yet. The Ark Royal had become
>> >> >pretty much a museum spaceship, with an equally washed up commander, but
>> >> >it turned out to be better protected against the unexpected alien threat
>> >> >than more modern ships, and its commander achieved redemption.
>> >> [Hal Heydt]
>> >> Not like that hasn't happened in the real world (as regards
>> >> ships, not necessarily their commanders). When one of the
>> >> refurbished WW2 Iowa class battleships was sent to Gulf, some
>> >> clueless reporter asked the commanding officer what he would do
>> >> if the ship were to be hit by an Exocet missile. He replied that
>> >> he would do what his predecessor did in WW2 when the ship was hit by
>> >> a kamikazi. Send out a fire crew to put out the fire, a sweeping
>> >> crew to remove the debris, and paint crew to paint over the
>> >> scorched spot.
>> >
>> >By 1800 the 64 gun ship of the line was verging on obsolete, much smaller
>> >than a British 74 and far smaller than a French 74. But the UK had a lot
>> >of them and it wasn't practical to take those units out of the fleet in the
>> >middle of a war - three fought at Trafalgar on the British side and one
>> >on the Spanish.
>> >
>> >Some were made into razees, with the top deck cut off. In this role they
>> >were like very powerful frigates, with heavy guns and the (wooden) armour
>> >of a ship of the line. I can't think of an equivalent in SF.
>> [Hal Heydt]
>> The British sometimes claimed the the big American frigates--like
>> the Constitution--were cut down 74s. They weren't.

[Hal Heydt]
(Trimming a lot of good information.)

>Further to the idea of obsolete vessels, as late as 1798 the British
>still had a few 50
>gunned two deckers in service. They built one as late as 1780 and you
>have to wonder
>what spectacular corruption allowed that to happen.

In the undeclared war between (on one side) the US and Britain,
and (on the other side) France in 1797, the US frigate
Constellation took on and beat a French 50-gun ship.

>One of them made a good fight against a French 74 but was captured. The
>mainmast of the 74 was hit
>almost thirty times, but the light armament of the 50s upper deck didn't
>throw heavy enough shells to

At that period, solid shot (and various options like canister and
chain), not shells. At least not shells as we think of them. In
that period, the only gun that would be used to fire an explosive
shell would have be a mortar. And in the War of 1812, if the
gunner cut the fuse timing too short, it would detonate short of
the target yielding, "bombs bursting in air."

>take it down. Had the 74 been fighting the Constitution with its 24
>pounder carronades on the upper deck
>I think the result might have been very different.

It's moderately likely that, under one of the better US ship
captains, one of the US 44-gun frigates might well have defeated
a British 74. US gunnery tactics might well have affected the
outcome, too. While the British practice was round shot fired at
the hull, the US adopted the French tactic of firing chain shot
through the rigging. Dismasting the 74 would have then given the
US ship the opportunity to rake the 74, including across the
(almost always unprotected) stern.

On Tue, 10 Oct 2023 14:07:30 -0000 (UTC), jdnicoll@panix.com (James
Nicoll) wrote:

> https://www.tor.com/2023/10/10/five-sf-classics-featuring-soon-to-be-obsolete-spaceships/

Re: the cut'paste letters to two wives discussed in the comments: I
used to write letters on twelve sheets of carbon paper.

(no ribbon; the oldest sheet of carbon paper was on top of the stack
because setting the typewriter on "stencil" made it hit harder.)

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 7:26:19 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <1920e81c-645b-4939...@googlegroups.com>,
> William Hyde <wthyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Tuesday, October 10, 2023 at 10:46:19 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> >> In article <70952f56-abb6-4d0e...@googlegroups.com>,
> >> William Hyde <wthyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >On Tuesday, October 10, 2023 at 5:36:19 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> >> >> In article <8844de76-8424-4f89...@googlegroups.com>,
> >> >> Andrew McDowell <mcdow...@sky.com> wrote:
> >> >> >On Tuesday, October 10, 2023 at 3:07:35 PM UTC+1, James Nicoll wrote:
> >> >> >> Five SF Classics Featuring Soon-To-Be Obsolete Spaceships
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Science fiction stories for which Stan Rogers' Last Watch on the
> >Midland
> >> >> >> would be appropriate theme music.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >>
> >>
> >>>https://www.tor.com/2023/10/10/five-sf-classics-featuring-soon-to-be-obsolete-spaceships/
> >> >> >> --
> >> >> >> My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
> >> >> >> My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
> >> >> >> My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
> >> >> >> My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
> >> >> >I quite liked Christopher Nuttall's Ark Royal series, although I see
> >> >> >there are new books in it I have not read yet. The Ark Royal had become
> >> >> >pretty much a museum spaceship, with an equally washed up commander, but
> >> >> >it turned out to be better protected against the unexpected alien threat
> >> >> >than more modern ships, and its commander achieved redemption.
> >> >> [Hal Heydt]
> >> >> Not like that hasn't happened in the real world (as regards
> >> >> ships, not necessarily their commanders). When one of the
> >> >> refurbished WW2 Iowa class battleships was sent to Gulf, some
> >> >> clueless reporter asked the commanding officer what he would do
> >> >> if the ship were to be hit by an Exocet missile. He replied that
> >> >> he would do what his predecessor did in WW2 when the ship was hit by
> >> >> a kamikazi. Send out a fire crew to put out the fire, a sweeping
> >> >> crew to remove the debris, and paint crew to paint over the
> >> >> scorched spot.
> >> >
> >> >By 1800 the 64 gun ship of the line was verging on obsolete, much smaller
> >> >than a British 74 and far smaller than a French 74. But the UK had a lot
> >> >of them and it wasn't practical to take those units out of the fleet in the
> >> >middle of a war - three fought at Trafalgar on the British side and one
> >> >on the Spanish.
> >> >
> >> >Some were made into razees, with the top deck cut off. In this role they
> >> >were like very powerful frigates, with heavy guns and the (wooden) armour
> >> >of a ship of the line. I can't think of an equivalent in SF.
> >> [Hal Heydt]
> >> The British sometimes claimed the the big American frigates--like
> >> the Constitution--were cut down 74s. They weren't.
> [Hal Heydt]
> (Trimming a lot of good information.)
> >Further to the idea of obsolete vessels, as late as 1798 the British
> >still had a few 50
> >gunned two deckers in service. They built one as late as 1780 and you
> >have to wonder
> >what spectacular corruption allowed that to happen.
> In the undeclared war between (on one side) the US and Britain,
> and (on the other side) France in 1797, the US frigate
> Constellation took on and beat a French 50-gun ship.
> >One of them made a good fight against a French 74 but was captured. The
> >mainmast of the 74 was hit
> >almost thirty times, but the light armament of the 50s upper deck didn't
> >throw heavy enough shells to
> At that period, solid shot (and various options like canister and
> chain), not shells.

Yes indeed. A distinctly inaccurate word choice on my part.

At least not shells as we think of them. In
> that period, the only gun that would be used to fire an explosive
> shell would have be a mortar. And in the War of 1812, if the
> gunner cut the fuse timing too short, it would detonate short of
> the target yielding, "bombs bursting in air."
> >take it down. Had the 74 been fighting the Constitution with its 24
> >pounder carronades on the upper deck
> >I think the result might have been very different.
> It's moderately likely that, under one of the better US ship
> captains, one of the US 44-gun frigates might well have defeated
> a British 74. US gunnery tactics might well have affected the
> outcome, too. While the British practice was round shot fired at
> the hull, the US adopted the French tactic of firing chain shot
> through the rigging.

I don't recall that happening in the major frigate actions of 1812. The
Constitution brought down Gurrier's mizzenmast with round shot, for
example. The United States used the greater range of her 24s versus
the Macedonian's 18s effectively.

>Dismasting the 74 would have then given the
> US ship the opportunity to rake the 74, including across the
> (almost always unprotected) stern.

Chain shot, I think, is vastly overrated. If it was that good the two
most successful big ship navies of the era, the British and the
Dutch, would have used it more often. So would the American
frigates. IIRC they all stocked it for special situations, though.
It was an effective anti-personnel munition as well as good at
cutting rigging.

One of the worst moments of the Hornblower movie I mentioned elsewhere
had H dismasting three or four French ships of the line in this way. Such an
attack would have cut rigging and sails, perhaps knocking down a topmast
or yard. The ships would have remained maneuverable, and the damage
reparable even at sea in a couple of days.

The only case I can recall of the US using chain shot in a major engagement was
due to special circumstances.

The President was being chased by a British squadron. Of this squadron only
the Endymion was faster than the President. It was a large frigate but
no match for the US vessel. But a full engagement with the Endymion
would allow the other ships to catch up unless a very lucky broadside
crippled the opponent early.

The President used chain shot in an attempt to slow down the Endymion which
certainly seems to make sense in this situation. However, this did not work - though
it succeeded in bringing down a topmast, and Endymion's rigging was badly
damaged, it was not slowed enough until it was too late to matter while the
President was taking serious damage - including to its rigging. The fog of
war makes it hard to tell how close the President was to escaping.

I don't see even a large, well crewed, 44 taking down a competently run 74. Masts
do not come down that easily and 32 pounders do a lot more damage to them
than 24s - especially when the range is too long for 24 pounder carronades.

But if any 44 could do it it would be one of the large US frigates. The
US could afford lead cartridges for their small fleet, which upped the rate
of fire by twenty percent and the crews were superb.

The case of the Indefatigable and Amazon vs Droits des Hommes, was, of course,
a special situation.

William Hyde

Dorothy J Heydt wrote:

>[Hal Heydt]
>Not like that hasn't happened in the real world (as regards
>ships, not necessarily their commanders). When one of the
>refurbished WW2 Iowa class battleships was sent to Gulf, some
>clueless reporter asked the commanding officer what he would do
>if the ship were to be hit by an Exocet missile. He replied that
>he would do what his predecessor did in WW2 when the ship was hit by
>a kamikazi. Send out a fire crew to put out the fire, a sweeping
>crew to remove the debris, and paint crew to paint over the
>scorched spot.

In my early days at Megacorp, I worked as a test engineer on new weapon
systems being installed on those ships. When we did a retrofit on some
at Long Beach, I got to go aboard the Missouri and the New Jersey. The
Missouri was kind of neat, I was able to visit the surrender memorial.
The New Jersey was a less pleasant experience.

Brian