Lovecraft Country (Lovecraft Country, volume 1) by Matt Ruff

Meeting long-lost relatives has drawback, when those relatives are
wealthy, white cultists.

https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/whatever-ive-got
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

On Tuesday, November 14, 2023 at 9:05:38 AM UTC-5, James Nicoll wrote:
> Lovecraft Country (Lovecraft Country, volume 1) by Matt Ruff
>
> Meeting long-lost relatives has drawback, when those relatives are
> wealthy, white cultists.

I didn't read the book, but I did see the 2020 show. Mostly set in the 50s.

It was pretty good, though horror isn't really my thing. What did bug me
was that Every Single White Person was not only racist, none of them had
a single redeeming factor. It just felt lazy. The world is more complex, even
if you have shoggoths running around.

pt

On 14/11/2023 10.20, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 14, 2023 at 9:05:38 AM UTC-5, James Nicoll wrote:
>> Lovecraft Country (Lovecraft Country, volume 1) by Matt Ruff
>>
>> Meeting long-lost relatives has drawback, when those relatives are
>> wealthy, white cultists.
>
> I didn't read the book, but I did see the 2020 show. Mostly set in the 50s.
>
> It was pretty good, though horror isn't really my thing. What did bug me
> was that Every Single White Person was not only racist, none of them had
> a single redeeming factor.

That could be, but isn't it just a reflection of what HPL wrote? Weren't
his (invariably white) protagonists all racists? That's certainly the
impression that I got from the smattering of his work that I've read.

--
Michael F. Stemper
Isaiah 58:6-7

On Sunday, November 19, 2023 at 4:32:36 PM UTC, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
> On 14/11/2023 10.20, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, November 14, 2023 at 9:05:38 AM UTC-5, James Nicoll wrote:
> >> Lovecraft Country (Lovecraft Country, volume 1) by Matt Ruff
> >>
> >> Meeting long-lost relatives has drawback, when those relatives are
> >> wealthy, white cultists.
> >
> > I didn't read the book, but I did see the 2020 show. Mostly set in the 50s.
> >
> > It was pretty good, though horror isn't really my thing. What did bug me
> > was that Every Single White Person was not only racist, none of them had
> > a single redeeming factor.
> That could be, but isn't it just a reflection of what HPL wrote? Weren't
> his (invariably white) protagonists all racists? That's certainly the
> impression that I got from the smattering of his work that I've read.
>
> --
> Michael F. Stemper
> Isaiah 58:6-7
I am not surprised that somebody whose imagination centered around rather backward New England small towns had mostly, or even entirely, white protaganists. Remember that Lovecraft was writing before media criticism had advanced to the discovery of "Put a chick in it and make it lame and gay!". My first priority on advising one of Lovecraft's characters would not be to inflict critical race theory on them, but to try and convince them of what Charles Stross referred to as the first law of demonology "Do not call up that which you cannot put down". I would also point out that if all of the protagonists are white, the opportunities for them to display their racism will be limited. In the Lovecraft Country book, and presumably in the TV series, the racist characters are able to demonstrate their racism convincingly because of the introduction of a non-white main character. Similarly, H P Lovecraft's stories include among his all-white characters many with redeeming characteristics, as you would expect of stories traditional enough to have heroes as well as villains.

In article <ujddau$3sf7s$1@dont-email.me>,
Michael F. Stemper <michael.stemper@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 14/11/2023 10.20, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Tuesday, November 14, 2023 at 9:05:38 AM UTC-5, James Nicoll wrote:
>>> Lovecraft Country (Lovecraft Country, volume 1) by Matt Ruff
>>>
>>> Meeting long-lost relatives has drawback, when those relatives are
>>> wealthy, white cultists.
>>
>> I didn't read the book, but I did see the 2020 show. Mostly set in the 50s.
>>
>> It was pretty good, though horror isn't really my thing. What did bug me
>> was that Every Single White Person was not only racist, none of them had
>> a single redeeming factor.
>
>That could be, but isn't it just a reflection of what HPL wrote? Weren't
>his (invariably white) protagonists all racists? That's certainly the
>impression that I got from the smattering of his work that I've read.
>
In Lovecraft's defense, the trained eye can detect in his work a subtle
disapproval of (some) white people as well. From Beyond The Wall of Sleep:

[His] appearance was that of the typical denizen of the Catskill Mountain
region; one of those strange, repellent scions of a primitive colonial
peasant stock whose isolation for nearly three centuries in the hilly
fastnesses of a little-travelled countryside has caused them to sink
to a kind of barbaric degeneracy, rather than advance with their more
fortunately placed brethren of the thickly settled districts. Among
these odd folk, who correspond exactly to the decadent element of
"white trash" in the South, law and morals are non-existent; and their
general mental status is probably below that of any other section of
the native American people."

Weirdly, that element of the story was toned down in the Mindwebs
radio play version.

(ISTR John W. Campbell, Jr. also disliked people of that region)

--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

begin fnord
jdnicoll@panix.com (James Nicoll) writes:

> In Lovecraft's defense, the trained eye can detect in his work a subtle
> disapproval of (some) white people as well. From Beyond The Wall of Sleep:

Yeah, in Lovecraft's worldview, it wasn't enough to be white; you had to
be the _right_ white - the Dutch get in for it in "The Lurking Fear",
and he wrote "The Shadow Over Innsmouth" as a horrified reaction to
learning that one of his ancestors had been...

.... get your fainting couch ready ...

....*Welsh*!

--
Steve Coltrin spcoltri@omcl.org Google Groups killfiled here
"A group known as the League of Human Dignity helped arrange for Deuel
to be driven to a local livestock scale, where he could be weighed."
- Associated Press

On Sunday, November 19, 2023 at 6:56:18 PM UTC, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <ujddau$3sf7s$1...@dont-email.me>,
> Michael F. Stemper <michael...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On 14/11/2023 10.20, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Tuesday, November 14, 2023 at 9:05:38 AM UTC-5, James Nicoll wrote:
> >>> Lovecraft Country (Lovecraft Country, volume 1) by Matt Ruff
> >>>
> >>> Meeting long-lost relatives has drawback, when those relatives are
> >>> wealthy, white cultists.
> >>
> >> I didn't read the book, but I did see the 2020 show. Mostly set in the 50s.
> >>
> >> It was pretty good, though horror isn't really my thing. What did bug me
> >> was that Every Single White Person was not only racist, none of them had
> >> a single redeeming factor.
> >
> >That could be, but isn't it just a reflection of what HPL wrote? Weren't
> >his (invariably white) protagonists all racists? That's certainly the
> >impression that I got from the smattering of his work that I've read.
> >
> In Lovecraft's defense, the trained eye can detect in his work a subtle
> disapproval of (some) white people as well. From Beyond The Wall of Sleep:
>
> [His] appearance was that of the typical denizen of the Catskill Mountain
> region; one of those strange, repellent scions of a primitive colonial
> peasant stock whose isolation for nearly three centuries in the hilly
> fastnesses of a little-travelled countryside has caused them to sink
> to a kind of barbaric degeneracy, rather than advance with their more
> fortunately placed brethren of the thickly settled districts. Among
> these odd folk, who correspond exactly to the decadent element of
> "white trash" in the South, law and morals are non-existent; and their
> general mental status is probably below that of any other section of
> the native American people."
>
> Weirdly, that element of the story was toned down in the Mindwebs
> radio play version.
>
> (ISTR John W. Campbell, Jr. also disliked people of that region)
> --
> My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
> My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
> My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
> My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
I will admit that Lovecraft does use the trope of inbred (white) yokels, and there is also a story where a town takes it upon itself to wipe out some very unlikeable recent white immigrants (who I think may have included Irish). Do the fish-hybrid inhabitants of Innsmouth get a pass for being obviously fantastic? If not, that is one of the few examples of actual literal racism, as opposed to a dislike of characteristics which could be cultural as opposed to genetically inherited. I still think it would be a shame to miss out on Lovecraft because of some incidental references to, or even use in the plot of, attitudes that were common currency at the time - to say nothing of the oddity of recoilling in horror from a book of horror stories because of something that would not have turned a hair at the time it was written.

(If Wikipedia is to be believed, discrimination against people from this area was a real problem at one time - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachian_stereotypes#Discrimination_against_Appalachian_individuals )

On Monday, November 20, 2023 at 11:15:09 AM UTC-5, Steve Coltrin wrote:
> begin fnord
> jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) writes:
>
> > In Lovecraft's defense, the trained eye can detect in his work a subtle
> > disapproval of (some) white people as well. From Beyond The Wall of Sleep:
> Yeah, in Lovecraft's worldview, it wasn't enough to be white; you had to
> be the _right_ white [snip]

Lovecraft disliked many things and people, but only some of his dislikes
were unusual for a man of his time and place. For example, his dislike of
Catholicism:

"disgusting defaecation of Dark Age superstition ... foetid putrescence of
the Romish whore ... vile hypocrisy of Popish pretense and corruption ...
filthy grovelling of a Catholick horde" (letter to Frank Belknap Long,
February 27, 1931, published in _Selected Letters III_, pp.306-307)

was common among contemporary New England Protestants. His
departure from *all* forms of religion:

"...it is now best that we shed our last theistic pretences in the light of
what we have come to know & feel." (p. 307)

was less common at the time.

In article <9c5c9cef-f620-4cd5-880a-50400e753056n@googlegroups.com>,
Ahasuerus <ahasuerus@email.com> wrote:
>On Monday, November 20, 2023 at 11:15:09 AM UTC-5, Steve Coltrin wrote:
>> begin fnord
>> jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) writes:
>>
>> > In Lovecraft's defense, the trained eye can detect in his work a subtle
>> > disapproval of (some) white people as well. From Beyond The Wall of Sleep:
>> Yeah, in Lovecraft's worldview, it wasn't enough to be white; you had to
>> be the _right_ white [snip]
>
>Lovecraft disliked many things and people, but only some of his dislikes
>were unusual for a man of his time and place. For example, his dislike of
>Catholicism:
>
>"disgusting defaecation of Dark Age superstition ... foetid putrescence of
>the Romish whore ... vile hypocrisy of Popish pretense and corruption ...
>filthy grovelling of a Catholick horde" (letter to Frank Belknap Long,
>February 27, 1931, published in _Selected Letters III_, pp.306-307)
>
>was common among contemporary New England Protestants. His
>departure from *all* forms of religion:
>
>"...it is now best that we shed our last theistic pretences in the light of
>what we have come to know & feel." (p. 307)
>
>was less common at the time.

Interestingly, he married a Jewish woman, and at least one article put it
something to the effect "and surprisingly, the marriage failed not so
much because she was Jewish, but because he was Lovecraft".
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

On Mon, 20 Nov 2023 11:44:06 -0800 (PST), Ahasuerus
<ahasuerus@email.com> wrote:

>On Monday, November 20, 2023 at 11:15:09?AM UTC-5, Steve Coltrin wrote:
>> begin fnord
>> jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) writes:
>>
>> > In Lovecraft's defense, the trained eye can detect in his work a subtle
>> > disapproval of (some) white people as well. From Beyond The Wall of Sleep:
>> Yeah, in Lovecraft's worldview, it wasn't enough to be white; you had to
>> be the _right_ white [snip]
>
>Lovecraft disliked many things and people, but only some of his dislikes
>were unusual for a man of his time and place. For example, his dislike of
>Catholicism:
>
>"disgusting defaecation of Dark Age superstition ... foetid putrescence of
>the Romish whore ... vile hypocrisy of Popish pretense and corruption ....
>filthy grovelling of a Catholick horde" (letter to Frank Belknap Long,
>February 27, 1931, published in _Selected Letters III_, pp.306-307)
>
>was common among contemporary New England Protestants. His
>departure from *all* forms of religion:
>
>"...it is now best that we shed our last theistic pretences in the light of
>what we have come to know & feel." (p. 307)
>
>was less common at the time.

I once had a lovingly-printed laminated large card from a Lutheran
pastor who was protesting the recent denial of his free speech rights
by the Synod he was a member of.

And what free speech right was being denied him? The right to go up
into his pulpit and attack the Pope and Roman Catholicism, of course.

So the feeling was there long after Lovecraft. The language used had
been dialed down several notches by then, though.

This would have been in the mid-50s, when my grandfather was part-time
Synod President for a few years.

They gave him an impressive authentic bull whip when he left office.
Apparently, he was quite strict.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

On Tuesday, November 21, 2023 at 12:06:49 PM UTC-5, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Nov 2023 11:44:06 -0800 (PST), Ahasuerus
> <ahas...@email.com> wrote:
> >On Monday, November 20, 2023 at 11:15:09?AM UTC-5, Steve Coltrin wrote:
> >> begin fnord
> >> jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) writes:
> >>
> >> > In Lovecraft's defense, the trained eye can detect in his work a subtle
> >> > disapproval of (some) white people as well. From Beyond The Wall of Sleep:
> >> Yeah, in Lovecraft's worldview, it wasn't enough to be white; you had to
> >> be the _right_ white [snip]
> >
> >Lovecraft disliked many things and people, but only some of his dislikes
> >were unusual for a man of his time and place. For example, his dislike of
> >Catholicism:
> >
> >"disgusting defaecation of Dark Age superstition ... foetid putrescence of
> >the Romish whore ... vile hypocrisy of Popish pretense and corruption ....
> >filthy grovelling of a Catholick horde" (letter to Frank Belknap Long,
> >February 27, 1931, published in _Selected Letters III_, pp.306-307)
> >
> >was common among contemporary New England Protestants. His
> >departure from *all* forms of religion:
> >
> >"...it is now best that we shed our last theistic pretences in the light of
> >what we have come to know & feel." (p. 307)
> >
> >was less common at the time.
> I once had a lovingly-printed laminated large card from a Lutheran
> pastor who was protesting the recent denial of his free speech rights
> by the Synod he was a member of.
>
> And what free speech right was being denied him? The right to go up
> into his pulpit and attack the Pope and Roman Catholicism, of course.

[snip]

I think it's fair to say that there have been a few contretemps between
Protestants and Catholics over the last 506 years, some more polite
than others.

In article <e704b725-031d-448e-89b5-77b91ca04072n@googlegroups.com>,
Ahasuerus <ahasuerus@email.com> wrote:
>On Tuesday, November 21, 2023 at 12:06:49 PM UTC-5, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Mon, 20 Nov 2023 11:44:06 -0800 (PST), Ahasuerus
>> <ahas...@email.com> wrote:
>> >On Monday, November 20, 2023 at 11:15:09?AM UTC-5, Steve Coltrin wrote:
>> >> begin fnord
>> >> jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) writes:
>> >>
>> >> > In Lovecraft's defense, the trained eye can detect in his work a subtle
>> >> > disapproval of (some) white people as well. From Beyond The Wall
>of Sleep:
>> >> Yeah, in Lovecraft's worldview, it wasn't enough to be white; you had to
>> >> be the _right_ white [snip]
>> >
>> >Lovecraft disliked many things and people, but only some of his dislikes
>> >were unusual for a man of his time and place. For example, his dislike of
>> >Catholicism:
>> >
>> >"disgusting defaecation of Dark Age superstition ... foetid putrescence of
>> >the Romish whore ... vile hypocrisy of Popish pretense and corruption ...
>> >filthy grovelling of a Catholick horde" (letter to Frank Belknap Long,
>> >February 27, 1931, published in _Selected Letters III_, pp.306-307)
>> >
>> >was common among contemporary New England Protestants. His
>> >departure from *all* forms of religion:
>> >
>> >"...it is now best that we shed our last theistic pretences in the light of
>> >what we have come to know & feel." (p. 307)
>> >
>> >was less common at the time.
>> I once had a lovingly-printed laminated large card from a Lutheran
>> pastor who was protesting the recent denial of his free speech rights
>> by the Synod he was a member of.
>>
>> And what free speech right was being denied him? The right to go up
>> into his pulpit and attack the Pope and Roman Catholicism, of course.
>
>[snip]
>
>I think it's fair to say that there have been a few contretemps between
>Protestants and Catholics over the last 506 years, some more polite
>than others.

Surely this could be easily resolved by determining which side is
the satanic heretics and which side is correct?
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

On 11/21/2023 11:08 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <e704b725-031d-448e-89b5-77b91ca04072n@googlegroups.com>,
> Ahasuerus <ahasuerus@email.com> wrote:
>> On Tuesday, November 21, 2023 at 12:06:49 PM UTC-5, Paul S Person wrote:
>>> On Mon, 20 Nov 2023 11:44:06 -0800 (PST), Ahasuerus
>>> <ahas...@email.com> wrote:
>>>> On Monday, November 20, 2023 at 11:15:09?AM UTC-5, Steve Coltrin wrote:
>>>>> begin fnord
>>>>> jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In Lovecraft's defense, the trained eye can detect in his work a subtle
>>>>>> disapproval of (some) white people as well. From Beyond The Wall
>> of Sleep:
>>>>> Yeah, in Lovecraft's worldview, it wasn't enough to be white; you had to
>>>>> be the _right_ white [snip]
>>>>
>>>> Lovecraft disliked many things and people, but only some of his dislikes
>>>> were unusual for a man of his time and place. For example, his dislike of
>>>> Catholicism:
>>>>
>>>> "disgusting defaecation of Dark Age superstition ... foetid putrescence of
>>>> the Romish whore ... vile hypocrisy of Popish pretense and corruption ...
>>>> filthy grovelling of a Catholick horde" (letter to Frank Belknap Long,
>>>> February 27, 1931, published in _Selected Letters III_, pp.306-307)
>>>>
>>>> was common among contemporary New England Protestants. His
>>>> departure from *all* forms of religion:
>>>>
>>>> "...it is now best that we shed our last theistic pretences in the light of
>>>> what we have come to know & feel." (p. 307)
>>>>
>>>> was less common at the time.
>>> I once had a lovingly-printed laminated large card from a Lutheran
>>> pastor who was protesting the recent denial of his free speech rights
>>> by the Synod he was a member of.
>>>
>>> And what free speech right was being denied him? The right to go up
>>> into his pulpit and attack the Pope and Roman Catholicism, of course.
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>> I think it's fair to say that there have been a few contretemps between
>> Protestants and Catholics over the last 506 years, some more polite
>> than others.
>
> Surely this could be easily resolved by determining which side is
> the satanic heretics and which side is correct?

And what to do about the side that aren't correct satanic heretics.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On Tue, 21 Nov 2023 14:13:55 -0800, Dimensional Traveler
<dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:

>On 11/21/2023 11:08 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
>> In article <e704b725-031d-448e-89b5-77b91ca04072n@googlegroups.com>,
>> Ahasuerus <ahasuerus@email.com> wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, November 21, 2023 at 12:06:49?PM UTC-5, Paul S Person wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 20 Nov 2023 11:44:06 -0800 (PST), Ahasuerus
>>>> <ahas...@email.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Monday, November 20, 2023 at 11:15:09?AM UTC-5, Steve Coltrin wrote:
>>>>>> begin fnord
>>>>>> jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In Lovecraft's defense, the trained eye can detect in his work a subtle
>>>>>>> disapproval of (some) white people as well. From Beyond The Wall
>>> of Sleep:
>>>>>> Yeah, in Lovecraft's worldview, it wasn't enough to be white; you had to
>>>>>> be the _right_ white [snip]
>>>>>
>>>>> Lovecraft disliked many things and people, but only some of his dislikes
>>>>> were unusual for a man of his time and place. For example, his dislike of
>>>>> Catholicism:
>>>>>
>>>>> "disgusting defaecation of Dark Age superstition ... foetid putrescence of
>>>>> the Romish whore ... vile hypocrisy of Popish pretense and corruption ...
>>>>> filthy grovelling of a Catholick horde" (letter to Frank Belknap Long,
>>>>> February 27, 1931, published in _Selected Letters III_, pp.306-307)
>>>>>
>>>>> was common among contemporary New England Protestants. His
>>>>> departure from *all* forms of religion:
>>>>>
>>>>> "...it is now best that we shed our last theistic pretences in the light of
>>>>> what we have come to know & feel." (p. 307)
>>>>>
>>>>> was less common at the time.
>>>> I once had a lovingly-printed laminated large card from a Lutheran
>>>> pastor who was protesting the recent denial of his free speech rights
>>>> by the Synod he was a member of.
>>>>
>>>> And what free speech right was being denied him? The right to go up
>>>> into his pulpit and attack the Pope and Roman Catholicism, of course.
>>>
>>> [snip]
>>>
>>> I think it's fair to say that there have been a few contretemps between
>>> Protestants and Catholics over the last 506 years, some more polite
>>> than others.
>>
>> Surely this could be easily resolved by determining which side is
>> the satanic heretics and which side is correct?
>
>And what to do about the side that aren't correct satanic heretics.

Both sides know the answer to that.

However, and this is a good thing, neither side controls any
governments any more to the point where the government can be used to
punish the other side internally and/or declare war on any government
the other side may control.

A religion without a Judicial System, an Army, and a Navy is, if not a
peaceful religion, at least a /tame/ one.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

On Tuesday, 21 November 2023 at 17:06:49 UTC, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Nov 2023 11:44:06 -0800 (PST), Ahasuerus
> <ahas...@email.com> wrote:
> >On Monday, November 20, 2023 at 11:15:09?AM UTC-5, Steve Coltrin wrote:
> >> begin fnord
> >> jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) writes:
> >>
> >> > In Lovecraft's defense, the trained eye can detect in his work a subtle
> >> > disapproval of (some) white people as well. From Beyond The Wall of Sleep:
> >> Yeah, in Lovecraft's worldview, it wasn't enough to be white; you had to
> >> be the _right_ white [snip]
> >
> >Lovecraft disliked many things and people, but only some of his dislikes
> >were unusual for a man of his time and place. For example, his dislike of
> >Catholicism:
> >
> >"disgusting defaecation of Dark Age superstition ... foetid putrescence of
> >the Romish whore ... vile hypocrisy of Popish pretense and corruption ...
> >filthy grovelling of a Catholick horde" (letter to Frank Belknap Long,
> >February 27, 1931, published in _Selected Letters III_, pp.306-307)
> >
> >was common among contemporary New England Protestants. His
> >departure from *all* forms of religion:
> >
> >"...it is now best that we shed our last theistic pretences in the light of
> >what we have come to know & feel." (p. 307)
> >
> >was less common at the time.
> I once had a lovingly-printed laminated large card

Christmas?

> from a Lutheran
> pastor who was protesting the recent denial of his free speech rights
> by the Synod he was a member of.
>
> And what free speech right was being denied him? The right to go up
> into his pulpit and attack the Pope and Roman Catholicism, of course.

A holiday tradition?

> So the feeling was there long after Lovecraft. The language used had
> been dialed down several notches by then, though.
>
> This would have been in the mid-50s, when my grandfather was part-time
> Synod President for a few years.
>
> They gave him an impressive authentic bull whip when he left office.
> Apparently, he was quite strict.

Not so strict as to already have one.
Unless he wore it out.

Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
>On Tuesday, 21 November 2023 at 17:06:49 UTC, Paul S Person wrote:
>>
>> And what free speech right was being denied him? The right to go up
>> into his pulpit and attack the Pope and Roman Catholicism, of course.
>
>A holiday tradition?

It makes sense. For years I would get Christmas cards from my (Orange)
grandparents reminding me that I was going to hell because my father
married an (Italian) Catholic.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 24 Nov 2023 17:11:47 -0000, kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

>Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
>>On Tuesday, 21 November 2023 at 17:06:49 UTC, Paul S Person wrote:
>>>
>>> And what free speech right was being denied him? The right to go up
>>> into his pulpit and attack the Pope and Roman Catholicism, of course.
>>
>>A holiday tradition?
>
>It makes sense. For years I would get Christmas cards from my (Orange)
>grandparents reminding me that I was going to hell because my father
>married an (Italian) Catholic.

I missed the response you are responding to, and the headers don't
seem to have the message-number but, no, I suspect he wanted to do it
on a regular recurring basis.

Continuing a long-standing tradition, no doubt.

And I suspect he was "reminded" that the purpose of a sermon, for
Lutherans, is to preach the Word. Which has nothing to do with
attacking other groups.

IOW, I suspect he was objecting to being told to actually do his job
with regard to preaching.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

On Tuesday, November 14, 2023 at 11:20:09 AM UTC-5, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 14, 2023 at 9:05:38 AM UTC-5, James Nicoll wrote:
> > Lovecraft Country (Lovecraft Country, volume 1) by Matt Ruff
> >
> > Meeting long-lost relatives has drawback, when those relatives are
> > wealthy, white cultists.
> I didn't read the book, but I did see the 2020 show. Mostly set in the 50s.
>
> It was pretty good, though horror isn't really my thing. What did bug me
> was that Every Single White Person was not only racist, none of them had
> a single redeeming factor. It just felt lazy. The world is more complex, even
> if you have shoggoths running around.
>

In the book (which I read recently) there are several decent white characters.

On Friday, November 24, 2023 at 12:11:52 PM UTC-5, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
> >On Tuesday, 21 November 2023 at 17:06:49 UTC, Paul S Person wrote:
> >>
> >> And what free speech right was being denied him? The right to go up
> >> into his pulpit and attack the Pope and Roman Catholicism, of course.
> >
> >A holiday tradition?
> It makes sense. For years I would get Christmas cards from my (Orange)
> grandparents reminding me that I was going to hell because my father
> married an (Italian) Catholic.

I had a similar, if reversed, experience around age ten. Not, I hasten to
add, from my family.

On the whole it was a good thing, as I got new friends and began to escape
the clutches of religion.

William Hyde