Jordy C. wrote:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gyL5ie6-x0

Quite of ionterest, I am reading the transcript as of now...

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Transcript

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sitting with me as dr. Herbert minutiae a professor of politics and philosophy at Brandeis University and the author of
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the recent book entitled one-dimensional man published by beacon press and also John Simon who's an editor of New York
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publishing house and we're going to be discussing dr. marcoh whose book one-dimensional man and this is a book
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as I understand it which is about the United States and its general thesis is
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that in certain significant ways we have reached situation or are reaching a
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situation with it which is extremely close to a totalitarian society and I
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think we'll begin by discussing what precisely we mean by this and I want to quote from dr. Marcus's book you're
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right by virtue of the way in his organized his technological base contemporary industrial society tends to
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be totalitarian for totalitarian is not only a terroristic political coordination of society but also a non
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terroristic economic technical coordination which operates through the manipulation of needs by vested
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interests it does precludes the emergence of an effective opposition against the whole not only the specific
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form of government or party rule makes for totalitarianism but also a specific
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system of production and distribution which may well be compatible with a pluralism of parties newspapers
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countervailing powers etc and I wonder if you'd begin by telling us precisely
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what you mean in this sense by totalitarian yes may I begin by a
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qualifying a little what you said I wish only my book total of dear we see a
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United States a deal esse quotation shows with certain tendencies not more
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certain tendencies which I think are observable in the most advanced areas of
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industrial civilization the most advanced area of industrial civilization
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of course is the United States today but even in the United States the tendencies
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to which I point are prevailing if they
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are prevailing at or not simply beginning to show themselves only in certain advanced
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areas meaning as is very known that are still vast regions of under development
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of poverty even in the United States now by a totalitarian I used the term fully
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aware that this might violate certain taboos we are used to apply the term
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totalitarian only to well first the fascist and Nazi society then the
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communist society that is to say we are used to apply the term totalitarian to
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societies under more or less terroristic dictatorship with a one-party system
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with the more or less terroristic elimination of all opposition I believe
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that such a confined restricted use of the term totalitarian is itself
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ideological because it may serve to cover up the fact at least in my opinion
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a fact where totalitarian tendencies are beginning to show even in societies
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which are still democratic which preserves in democratic poses and institutions which have several parties
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which may even have countervailing forces by totalitarian I mean the
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constellation of situation enrich the private as well as public existence of
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man of the individual is controlled is
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exposed to standardised required ways of
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behavior standardized imposed values standardized imposed needs this can be
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done by a private as well as by a public you're cutting it can be done why are
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the correctly Democratic Media of mass communication and so on it is in a way a
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consequence as a quote source of technical formulas which implies mass
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production and mass distribution mass production and mass distribution in turn
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require a considerable degree of standardization a considerable degree of
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submission of the individual to pre given and superimposed values ideas
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aspirations goers and so on is this a necessary condition of this particular productive capacity and system
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well the tale of necessary apply to history is a very question of the term
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we can see in a strict sense if you mean it in the sense of a physical law nothing is necessarily an estimate I do
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think it is the by-product at present inevitable byproduct of the way in which
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technical progress actually has taken place in industrial society and this and
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and this this argument applies as well to societies that are organized and I more or less individualistic basis as
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well as those that are collectivistic aliy organized that is the same critique
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applies as well to the soviet union or to the countries in the Soviet bloc as it does to the United States you would
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you would argue that I would say it applies in the sense that similar tendencies oh I think observable there
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of course was vast differences based on the entirely different foundation and
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organization of the entire economy but in as much as the Soviet Union will very
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soon join the most advanced areas of industrial civilization I think the two
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systems will become more or less assimilated I think I think we want to make clear at this point because you do
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make it clear in your book that you do see differences between the Soviet Union and the United States differences
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and maybe you are a ground away where the obvious difference is that the
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society as I just mentioned is organized on an essentially different basis the
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collective ownership and control of the means of production regardless of whether or not you consider it as
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already socialist or not socialist at all is a sufficiently different form a
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society organized on the basis of private control and ownership of the means of production to make for decisive
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differences in the tendencies of development there is also if there is there not a difference in the legal
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basis of control by the state or is there nobody mid by legal basis well we
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are to some extent individuals and their own participation and their own ability to dissent are protected more in the
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American system than in the Soviet system they are certainly more protected
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they are even institutionalized as the American system they are not institutionalized in the Soviet system
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but precisely here I have my way I have a great fear that this
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institutionalization of civil rights and especially the right and Liberty to dissent is gradually eroded is reduced
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not much at all not by a conspiracy but simply by the
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mechanisms of technical goals within the
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framework of the established institutions which are before we get
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into a discussion of that particular area since we're attempting to define
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your use of totalitarian which I take it is quite different than say call Friedreich's use of the word oh yes I
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wanted to ask about the about the the
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applicability of the concept to the non advanced sectors of the world where
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particularly those countries that are now labeled socialist and are going into four extents planning and and use of many of the
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kinds of controls that you suggest exist in advanced industrial society Ghana Cuba Algeria for example the definition
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begin to apply in these countries as well on these areas that is one of the
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most difficult questions to raise and to answer on the one hand I would say and
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it may sound paradoxical although I don't think it is paradoxical that these
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countries precisely because they are not yet at the advanced stage of
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industrialization where they have to buy all the negative features of this kind
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of industrialization that these countries have a better chance of
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proceeding differently that these countries have a better chance of building form Scott a failure and a more
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human society but there are other impediments here namely that the vast
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majority of these countries is too weak in resources intellectual as well as
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material to do it by themselves they are by themselves as far as I can
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see again with some exceptions incapable of accumulating the funds capital funds
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that would be necessary for development and therefore will have to rely on
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outside help which can come only from the east or from the west and I am a
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friends of less this dependence on outside health would not almost
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inevitably these countries lead along the path that present gone either by the
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east or by serviced so that the idea of a third force is still a more or less a
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utopian idea one more question on in this general area the Isaac torture in
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his book the the great contest where he dealt with with issues of the Cold War
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which were not really central to this discussion suggested that the the
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potential the ultimate potential for freedom in the organization of the in in
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this sense of the totalitarian soviet society was far greater than existed in
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any area of the West because of the of the way in which the controls were applied and were used would you agree
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with this the formulation of mr. Deutsch is I agree up to a very definite point
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if Georgia wants to say that the establishment of a plant society it does
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not have to cope with the vested interests which otherwise stand in the
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way of a utilization of all available resources for the satisfaction of vital
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needs wherever they are still not satisfied rather than proceeding through wastes
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and planned obsolescence if he wants to say that I agree entirely there
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searching a centrally planned society in which the counteracting vested interest
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are indeed eliminated would have a far greater potential to develop humanity
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let's say in short then another society but here I think we have to place the
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development of Soviet society in the actual context of peaceful or rather
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hostile coexistence which means that the Soviet Union - at present sees itself
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committed to divert a vast section of its resources of the social wealth to
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armament production and thereby has to
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impose sacrifices which otherwise would not have to be imposed I think maybe it
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something we got to explore a little bit at this point is is it to go back to this question of the territory and the
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reason I come back to it I think is because it isn't the provocative word to be used in the context of modern American life one of
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the things you talk about in this regard is the range in the nature of choice available in this society and one should
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say I suppose in the first place that it seems that there is a great range of choice to some extent we have to all choose our political candidates and our
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pretty well our political leaders from a range of candidates we choose what the particular job you want to go to what
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education education we want to go to really choose a candidate or are they not chosen for us do i and you won't
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Weber it is choose a candidate which was actually or running order somebody else does a machine or I don't know what do
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it well there is a choice at least between different candidates with different points of view mr. Barry
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Goldwater has a different orientation I believed and then our president Johnson
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yes certainly are these real choices they are real choices wherever you have
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a real difference of opinion now I'm again God you early suspicious
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of the speeches and platforms and programs made before the elections they
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are usually hardly in any relation to what happened after the election if you
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have still a real difference of opinion I would say you indeed have a choice and
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you have freedom of choice but that is precisely what I start to doubt the mere
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fact is that we have two parties does not yet by itself mean that these
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parties differ in the accenture attitudes and opinions there may well be
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differences within one and the same accepted and established framework in
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which case both parties would compete in preserving the existing framework rather
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than working for alternatives if they are any alternatives one of the
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traditional areas of dissent aside from the political arena choice have been the academies and the
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distance of an intellectual community which at times historically has seen
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things differently than the current establishment of a society do you see in
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in the academies the existence of a real dissent and a real opposition of
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alternatives by academies you mean universities colleges and so on yes well
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I would say since this is precisely the field where I do have experience that is
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perhaps today the area which is still the freest of order my long experience
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with students has shown me that these students at least when they enter the
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university are still entirely open minded that they think by themselves
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that they preserve their open mind that they are highly critical and that's a
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really talk at least if they know that they can talk that depends on the with
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whom they talk gradually however the dire need makes itself first to look for
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a job they know perfectly well that if they go on like that if they continue to
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have really dissenting opinions and not only slight differences in opinion it
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may be very difficult for them to find a job and that sooner or later they have
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to adopt modes of behavior in which at least they conceal the dissent or
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express it in such a way that it does not cause a scandal and I certainly
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don't blame them for doing it but is this really is this really sufficient to explain a lack of this and
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there have been scholars and intellectuals who have been able to take a dissenting position in terms of
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publication and one thinks of individuals like Searight Mills and and in a much different sense and in a much
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more popular sense Vance Packard how would you account for the existence of these people and how would you account
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for the fact that there are not more likely I would not I say and I don't think I did say that
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we have no dissent and what I did say and what I mean and what I would like to
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repeat is we have a considerable amount of dissent we can afford this dissent
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because it remains completely and entirely in effective we can afford to
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have C right minutes we can afford to let Vance Packard say things which
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formally would have been very meticulously considered because our
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society is so strong so cohesive so a powerful that these revelations don't do
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it any harm and in a sense that is good but in another sense and perhaps and the
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deeper sentence is very bad John YES on the question I have two questions really
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but first I'd like to ask you about the particular phenomenon of Vance Packard uh he sells in the hundreds of thousands
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of copies and is in his widely read and
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and yet seems to have no real influence in the society it's the kind of thing
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that just slips off the surface that it makes perhaps a momentary impression and
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disappears and of course in the case of see right mills professor mills wrote a
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book club listen Yankee which sold over 400,000 copies and was read as I noticed
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by Subway's by secretaries writing on the subway and yet again made no
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impression the society seems not only confident to allow dissenters to exist
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but to allow them to be fairly widely disseminated in some cases what how
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would you want to comment on the phenomenon of the lack of impression of these people in the end the processes
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and devices by with which this is accomplished yes because I believe there's another in
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rushon which overrides and we consent in the last analysis destroys as the or
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mate it makes impotent as the impressions left as these books there is name is the
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impression that that never mind after our this society functions
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beautifully and efficiently it has succeeded in vastly increasing astonied
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of living in distributing its benefits over larger section of the former
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underprivileged population we still have these large areas of poverty but nothing
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proves that these areas cannot sooner or later also be taken care off
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so what these people reveal and indict are simply byproducts of the famous
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affluent society byproducts which are present we have to cope with but which
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are not really in any way serious and dangerous the the event in the in the
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recent past that seems most to bear this out it seems to me it was the
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assassination of the president where there existed at least the opportunity
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for an act and and the consequences of
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the active to have a deep impress on the American people and yet it was as if the
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the display of that for days was like another television rugged similar to
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show exact which we had after four days it was completely incorporated into the daily business of life there was a new
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president things are going on yes I'm well what I wanted to ask you was to
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perhaps comment a little bit more on the the the specific techniques and methods
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since the the mass communications industry plays such a large role in this
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whole process would you care to comment on that
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yes but again I don't want to make the impression that I consider the only
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thing as a conspiracy once a part of the media of mass communication we have a
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conspiratorial aspect they are to only a remind you of see a set of the frame of
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self-censorship which is exercised by the press by the movie industry whatever
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it is a self-censorship far more effective and far more efficient than
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any state instituted censor that is not the point I think that these are all
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these developments have a very rational basis namely precisely let our system
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works and because it works because it is so productive because it distributes
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such benefits we repress the pious which we pay for this affluence a world which
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by the way I would only use a in quotation marks it is this repression it is the repression of the price it cost
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the sacrifices that are involved which
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is actually that what bothers me most raises a question because thus far even
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speaking about such here again I use quotation marks intangibles in quotation
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marks is the range of choice available not being truly a meaningful choice and the social sciences and the academic
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institutions while tolerating some dissent nonetheless not really participating in the development and
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movement of the society what's wrong with the society as it now stands is there a need to change the society
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I mean don't after all we have haven't we if not if we haven't achieved utopia
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aren't we getting close to reaching utopia at least in terms of the production of material goods and
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physical comfort well that question leads to Z what I consider the calls or
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who at problem rods in a rather large cause of mine as
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universities a question it was a kind of examination question I asked the
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students I want to change I want you to tell me what is wrong was a society I never got an answer
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nobody could or nobody dare to tell me what is actually wrong with a society did the students want the course and
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knows I didn't because again I completely understand why they didn't is
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I want to tell me or didn't know what is wrong with it is an T I have to become a
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little philosophical and even a little utopian for me the world utopia makes no
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sense because in my view there's nothing today which could be a reason to be
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called utopia mankind has reached a stage where if it wanted to it could actually within a
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relatively short time translate into reality even the most utopian idea so
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the term utopia again is a subterfuge
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what as long as a society is that it retains that it perpetuates the struggle
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for existence tall frustration waste
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although all the intellectual and material capabilities are there to
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pacify this table before existence in the international arena as well as
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within the nation and force a private individual and by a pacification of the
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struggle for existence I mean something I think very concrete I expressed it in
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the phrase and I think your listener will listen as we know what I'm talking
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about the abolition of alienated labor we have reached a stage where industrial
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civilization really could reduce working time to such an extent that the
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traditional proportion between working time and free timelessly worst that free time becomes
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full time and working time marginal time this would involve a complete
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transvaluation of values it would cancel
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some of the most cherished abuse of the established organization for example the
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need for earning a living instead of making life and end in itself and not a
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means to attain an end which is either never attained or only in an age where
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you cannot enjoy it anymore this I think today is the alternative and this art relative is systematically
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again not in terms of a conspiracy about objectively prevented by the way in
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which we continue as he established direction of progress well there are two
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points there and it would be fair to rephrase the first part of that to say in a kind of shorthand sense that while
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we have the possibility of living within a society of Plenty the society is still organized as if it were a society of
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scarcity no for one very simple reason
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you don't need plenty in order to have a humane society I would even go so far
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and there again you will have to protect me I would even be a good so far as to
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say that one of the crimes of our present area you are is that we have too
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much there in a situation where the vast majority of the people of the earth have
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to litter so it is not a question of Plenty well let me change to other than the comparison between enough we had the
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potential of developing a society based on enough and we're still living as a society based on scarcity that's correct
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now the second part of that the second part of what you just said can I interrupt you I'm a question of enough
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and scarcity isn't it also true that
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that the the concept of scarcity doesn't apply because the the need to waste is
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so paramount injustice society certainly the need to waste as paramount as a need
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to waste is absolutely essential because it is a need for waste which in turn
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perpetuates the need for earning a living the need for growth for doing
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work which in fact technically is already superfluous can we make you into
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a bit of a visionary and ask you to discuss what the nature of a society that where the concepts of work and
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leisure breakdown will be like or what you would expect you cannot because we
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are at present I think utterly incapable to draft anything like a blueprint for
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such a society it is so easily ridiculed
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because we always assume that the individuals si have been preconditioned
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si are now will suddenly be placed in a situation in which as they don't have to
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work for a living anymore in which they don't have to earn a living anymore in which most of their time as free time
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and it is then very easy to say and I agree that would be a catastrophe and a detail perhaps the greatest catastrophe
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of the civilization it would be complete chaos it would be a nightmare there we
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cannot and risen envision such a society because it was so radically different
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from what we have now that any such vision would really be innovative
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responsible well let me try this comment then that we have the potential of
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developing however it might be organized and set up something approaching what has traditionally been considered a
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utopian kind of existence yes now then
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you then go on in the second part of your earlier statement to say that you see the society however
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moving and with tendencies which not only are not leading toward the establishment or existence of this kind
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of society but are actually leading in the other direction and this is what I wanted to to question you on because
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hadn't had always been true that the technological abilities of society have
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been ahead of the social abilities of the society to use utilize these techniques isn't this simply a question
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of cultural lag why isn't it that we aren't in fact slowly evolving a
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framework whereby we can use these technological developments to create a healthy human society because in my view
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it is not simply a time lag or a cultural lag in any other sense the
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decisive difference here is that what is in worth is not simply a better
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utilization and a better development of the available technical resources but
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what I called a radical redirection of technical progress itself and such a
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radical redirection of technical progress namely first to the satisfaction of vital needs and to a
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pacification such a radical redirection is in my view not possible within the
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established framework but would involve a sweeping change in our institutions
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which we're still institutions adopted to scarcity and not to what we
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potentially have now why can't this change be made let me let me also quote
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at this point something from your introduction that may or may not throw a light on on what I'm getting at you said
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here that the way in which is assigned he organizes the life of its members involves an initial choice between
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historical alternatives which are determined by the inherited level of the material and intellectual culture the
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choice itself results from the play of the dominant interests it anticipates
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specific modes transforming and utilized man in nature and rejects other modes etc the word I was I was looking at
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there with the word choice if I would not believe that such a redirection is
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historically possible I wouldn't have written my book as far as it choices
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concerned there indeed I am very pessimistic because the choice would
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require among other things men who live
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in the dire need for such a change this dire need is as I pointed out today
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effectively repressed it would furthermore require that these people
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who live in need of such a change actually have the power to bring the
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change about this to at present is not the case
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does anybody map it from this society as it's currently set up yes most certainly
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I think if not the majority at least a large segment of the population benefit
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for it and that is precisely why it is so serious a wider so pain for you that
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you criticize a society but I believe that Wars at stake than these benefits
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where to use a cliche or though I hate it I seriously believe that the chances
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of a human and humane existence for all without war the are at stake and in view
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of these chances I think one has to criticize even a society which is more
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beneficial to more people perhaps and any preceding society in history but in
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a sense it also it also doesn't it although it may benefit some members more than others it also does well it
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also wraps up those who benefit to some extent and and doesn't allow for their own full full development as human
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beings and I think this is what you meant when you spoke at one point the world to become the staff of total administration which absorbs even the
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administrators yes it absorbs not only the administrators it suffocates not
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only the need for a redirection of progress but it even does a best to
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arrest as a development of concepts and modes of thoughts which could define
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good sketch alternatives of the development not only a quantitative the
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changes but qualitative changes that is why I have the critique of present a
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positivism and a criticism which I consider a pseudoaneurysm a false and
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premise ism because it Orient's itself on a restricted and manipulated
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experience I just want to push you in this on a second and then on John I know has a question previously it might be
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said that a society that benefitted certain groups in the society rather than others had to be maintained in the
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eyes of those who benefited because it was simply impossible technologically for the group that benefited to maintain
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its particular benefits in an equalitarian totally equalitarian system
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but now we have a society where that is no longer impossible where in fact those who benefit need not give up very much
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in order to share their benefits with the others in the society through the advent of automation cybernetics and
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these techniques also in the current situation isn't it true that those who
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benefit could benefit more in a different social situation why then isn't it possible that traditional
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leadership groups themselves could at this point under these conditions make the transition to a different kind of
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society because it would be as far as I draw the first case of their story in
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which a invested and intentionally darshan or a ruling class if you wish
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has voluntarily abdicated the chances that the
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a not benefit the way they benefit now the risk of serious disruptions and even
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of a catastrophe and Worf is such that they will understandably not be willing
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to voluntarily to institute so exchanges
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direct from in the same society I think argues that they're um are are certain
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strong reasons why those who even those involved in leadership do not benefit as greatly into society as they could from
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a different kind of society couldn't this act is a sufficient stimulation to Lana where leadership tonight a
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transition there no as far as I remember Indian spy that simply well for example
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that the rich are not happy now in the first place I never took that very
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seriously and I don't believe that the unhappiness or so it should really be a
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matter of serious concern and in the second place I don't think you can
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interpret this reluctance primarily in Psychological terms what is involved
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after all is a deed to speak perfectly frankly a fundamental change and as he
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established political and economic institutions has already indicated for
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example a plant economy really plant economy with priority set on the
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satisfaction of needs is not compatible
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with the present private control of the economy with these individual one final
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question on this point with these with this leadership be giving up much more than simply a question of status and
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leadership would they be giving up any material conditions of livelihood again
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looking back at history it is at least possible or probable that they would
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indeed have to give up much of what they have now that others would move in we want to do
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it in a different way that I would indeed say John yes you describe an a
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contradiction or an antagonism between the need for change and I assume this is
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a kind of objective need that exists without the wishes or rub or feelings of
40:13
of anyone and the repression of the expression of the need for this change
40:18
now do you foresee in any in any sense
40:25
perhaps even in the classical Marcion sense a breakdown based on this kind of
40:30
contradiction in the system that will force some kind of change perhaps not
40:35
the one that we want or the one that you foresee the possibilities of such a
40:42
breakdown are such that I think that
40:48
yields a most rabid Marxist would wish them for example I could imagine that a
40:55
nuclear war or even a short of in declare war a large-scale international
41:02
war would release the forces that may
41:08
make for such a redirection of progress but who's insane enough to wish that you
41:16
don't see it see such a breakdown stemming from less cataclysmic factors
41:24
like stagnation within the economy or some kind of breakdown in the in the
41:29
arrangement and organization of our social and sexual mores for example
41:35
there's a group in among writers for example Norman Mailer
41:42
in particular who talks about the sexual revolution these factors have any
41:49
significance to your way of thinking could we expand sexual other kind of a whole moral Christ yes well that's what
41:54
I think there is more lovely disasters and almost cubital applications of the
42:02
term evolution we have in our evolution of the coca-cola company brings out the bottle it is a revolution and bottling
42:09
we have a revolution in the order and whoever a loom evolution and everything only we don't have a revolution rather
42:17
the only field in which the term revolution makes any sense I don't see a sexual revolution at all
42:23
on the contrary as I try to point out in my book I see a very nice very welcome
42:30
and very as pleasurable and pleasant adaptation of sexual mores to the
42:37
requirements of the affluent society which simply cannot do any more with a
42:43
Victorian morality that has nothing to do with an evolution took to follow up
42:50
on that the this very pleasant
42:58
development than our sexual and social mores that you talk about seems to
43:04
develop somewhat in opposition to the to the non terroristic totalitarian izing
43:12
of a society yes well no I doubt even let doubt even let because the more
43:19
sexual freedom people have within the established within the establishment and
43:28
without being punished by the establishment the easier they are to
43:33
guide the easier they are to manipulate now please don't misunderstand me I will
43:38
be the last to condemn this liberation and sexual morality let me ask you a
43:45
question historically uh maybe you can answer you don't want to or can't answer this but and this I thought of this one John
43:53
brought up the question of the web llama use of a revolution that changes in our
43:58
sexual mores in addition we find certain tendencies taking place in art and
44:04
literature and also in the use of drugs which seem possibly to be interrelated
44:09
here there's been a great deal of talk about another revolution the the drug
44:15
revolution the use of consciousness expanding drugs were with mr. Timothy
44:20
Leary and if if International Federation for internal freedom and similarly
44:26
artists in perhaps analogous Y and in Abstract Expressionism in tendencies
44:32
like this have have developed an art form which becomes at least to me so solipsistic that it almost ceases to
44:38
have any relevance other than for oneself are there historical parallels
44:43
and these kinds of developments and other social tendencies and developments and when one here is a great deal I I
44:50
was thinking of the decline of the Roman Empire for example as being a time of libertine ism and a concern with extreme
45:01
individuality the period following the French Revolution yes rather period following the French Revolution the
45:08
period of Sydney liked was slightly different because there did you at a considerable degree of genuine freedom
45:16
in these things provided you belong to deter a nest away the others didn't have it and never did have it as far as it
45:24
dogs are concerned this is very close to my heart because again unfortunately in the universities you know we are very
45:32
much concerned with it in this respect I'm a terrible reactionary as in many
45:38
other aspects I think that Doc's are reprehensible and that the only case in
45:45
which they are to be welcomed is in case of pain of insufferable physical pain in
45:53
all other cases they cannot possibly do what these people pretend as they do
46:01
especially not an art literature development of consciousness or these if
46:07
any singer acts of human freedom and if they are not the development at
46:13
attainment of human freedom they will invariably a compressor opposite over
46:18
they are supposed to be air to accomplish namely some kind of illusionary a happiness illusory
46:25
contentment illusory experience which again may very well become a vehicle of
46:31
adjustment rather than the opposite but isn't the ability in a certain sense to to take drugs which can expand your
46:38
personal individual consciousness to their greatest extent if in fact this is what they do or to work in art forms
46:45
which which expands one one's own feelings and emotions to the utmost
46:50
isn't this really a kind of liberation and freedom which is unparalleled in
46:56
history well maybe it is a revelation form things for which you shouldn't be liberated because they are precisely the
47:03
very essence of the present state of affairs and if you liberate yourself artificially form it what you actually
47:10
do is not develop your consciousness but arrest your consciousness in other words
47:15
this isn't so much a freedom to as a freedom from exactly you talk to the
47:21
misuse of the term revolution would you apply the the same approbation to the
47:30
use of the term in in the context of the civil rights movement the Negro
47:35
revolution as well do you see this in other words as a as a sign as a factor
47:45
for change in the Society of a significant sword feet before you mention that I let me just point out but
47:51
I think what possibly were working toward is some is is to see whether or not there are areas in which or forces
47:58
within the society which offer an opportunity for social change of some kind am I wrong John no yeah that's
48:03
right yes it is certainly this movement certainly is a movement towards social
48:10
change I would not call it a revolution because
48:15
I personally cannot understand how you can call a revolution a movement which
48:23
tries to implement the principles of the Declaration of Independence I mean as a
48:30
mere fact that we have to have such a movement today almost 200 years after
48:37
the Declaration of Independence I think characterizes our society sufficiently
48:43
it is not a revolution it will see a effort to finally to translate into
48:52
reality and what was promised a centuries ago the promise was which
48:58
actually modern society began and which is still not translated into reality
49:04
see right mills dealt with two other groups within the society namely the
49:09
labor movement and the intellectuals would you apply the same criticism to
49:15
both of these groups you want to deal with them in turn I did not apply any criticism as far as I remember to the
49:22
civil rights movement into the Negro movement as far as far as a lady I
49:27
didn't mean criticism had sense but an estimate of every yes as far as labor
49:34
movement is concerned or I can say is that at present organized labor in the
49:41
United States and not only in the United States has nothing to do anymore of this
49:46
and what Marx wants court as a polity reott and the develop a consciousness
49:54
and see revolutionary potential off as apologia
49:59
organized labor has today become one of the countervailing powers their
50:05
cooperating wizards counter countervailing power in the strengthening and improvement of the
50:12
powers that be again I certainly do not
50:18
say that in any way as a kind of accusation or indictment only in order
50:23
to characterize as the difference between the present state of affairs and the julep to 19th
50:31
century and in this country the turkeys would a class analysis of the society
50:39
still have any meaning given the the widespread affluence and the repression
50:46
of any significant consciousness of problems within the society I can't help
50:54
it but I do believe that we still have a class Society a class Society is not
51:00
characterized by the increasing higher standard of living of the wid classes
51:06
what is characterized today most outspokenly characterized by the fact
51:13
that we have one group or class which by
51:19
virtue of its position in the social and economic process decides and determines
51:27
the fate of the entire population and that the majority of the population
51:33
again by virtue of they are positioned in the social and economic process is
51:41
really not in any way self determinating
51:46
in speaking of classes let me only first bring up something else when you speak of of social change and how it takes
51:52
place and I'll quote here you say first which we've already said the choice is
51:58
primarily but only primarily the privilege of those groups which have attained control over the productive
52:03
processes their control projects the way of life for the whole and the ensuing and enslaving necessity is the result of
52:10
their freedom then you say and the possible abolition of this necessity pens on a new ingression of freedom not
52:16
any freedom but that of men who comprehend the given necessity as insufferable pain and as unnecessary so
52:23
that here you set up with your criteria of social change a group which is I
52:29
would say from this almost totally excluded from benefit to the society and you make this clear as you said earlier
52:35
in terms of labor movement and you also make it clear when you speak of of the people in general and their ability to
52:41
change the situation where you argue that in the redistribution of wealth and
52:47
equalization of classes there is simply a new stratification characteristic of advanced industrial society and not any
52:53
basic chance to change that method of stratification and ratification but then
53:00
you close your book and this is only the last half page out of 257 it's true when
53:06
you say however underneath the conservative popular base is the substratum of the outcasts and Outsiders
53:13
the exploited and persecuted of other races and colors the unemployed and unemployable they exist outside the
53:19
democratic process they're their life
53:26
their life is the most immediate in the most real need for ending intolerable conditions and institutions thus their
53:32
opposition is revolutionary even if their consciousness is not the fact that they start refusing to play the game
53:38
maybe the fact which marks the beginning of the end of the period now is the fact
53:44
that you spend only a half-page in this in any a sense characteristic of your evaluation of the possibility of this
53:49
tendency only partly characteristic the other part is that as I say only the
53:56
beginnings that may mark easy beginnings these group still are too powerless to
54:04
accomplish a change by themselves what I would like to add here that if I speak
54:11
of the ingestion of a new freedom motivated by the awareness of
54:18
intolerable the conditions that does not necessarily and exclusively me and
54:24
abject poverty and misery I for example
54:29
can very well envisage conditions under which the social groups which are not
54:37
prefer which are not a little in a live which do not live in misery become aware
54:42
of the insanity of a society in which
54:47
they have to continue in which their to continue alienated
54:52
labor continual performances which they actually hate continue the struggle for
55:01
existence which has become more and more a trace in the face of as impossible
55:09
abolition of loyalties and that this awareness may well spread and become one
55:15
of those potentially changing forces there currently are a number of programs
55:20
taking place throughout the country and of course the one that have gotten the most press recently of the Appalachians for Appalachia but also here in New York
55:28
City and elsewhere in Oakland California there have been a number of programs in which an enormous amount of money is
55:34
being spent in extremely small locations and an attempt to take this particular group of the population and somehow
55:40
integrate them into the society and I'm thinking of a project like the one going on in Harlem which is going to in which
55:46
eighty million dollars is going to be invested or one on the Lower East Side which I believe has been allocated 120
55:51
million dollars and as I understand it much of this money has come from extremely sophisticated extremely
55:57
sophisticated area of the leadership of the nation do you think that these kinds
56:02
of programs or any kind of program will be able to reduce the number of those who are unemployed and unemployable in
56:09
other words which way do you see this tendency going do you see this this potentially revolutionary group increasing report or decreasing that is
56:19
very hard to say because it depends entirely on the national and
56:24
international situation as to the project you mentioned naturally any and
56:30
every project that produces even in a small area misery and poverty and dirt
56:38
is good and should be supported but
56:43
without illusions that they do not have the key for the decisive change and it
56:51
seems to be a clear because this is not a local Messiah but a fire that not only
56:58
concerns the nation as a whole about a soup national core to John normal well let me
57:06
ask one final question what do you see and I think in a sense you've answered this what do you see the role of of
57:12
scholars and intellectuals to be given this particular state of society where
57:19
there doesn't seem to be at least if your analysis is correct much concrete action that can be done at this point
57:26
and indeed I'd say your analysis is a rather pessimistic one yes it is a
57:31
pessimistic one and precisely in this situation as the intellectual the scholar perhaps has a more responsible
57:40
or than he ever had before because it is his task today against all a apparent or
57:49
real success to preserve or rather to
57:56
develop those concepts those ideas those
58:01
aspirations which do not succumb to the oil or the seeming benefits of any
58:10
presence aasaiya t but which concepts and modes of thought which remain loyal
58:17
to the essentially o it hopes and aspirations of mankind for a society in
58:25
which as a struggle for existence as a deed pacified this is today and more
58:31
than ever before a real possibility and the entire power and the entire wealth
58:37
of our society is at present directed against this possibility precisely
58:44
because it is over here so in this situation discolor and the intellectual has one of the most decisive tasks thank
58:53
you very much we've been talking to dr. Herbert mark who's a professor of philosophy at Brandeis University and
58:58
author of a recent for one-dimensional man published by beacon press and John Fannin an editor of a New York
59:05
publishing house

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