Jordy C wrote:

> On Wednesday, February 1, 2023 at 4:41:34 PM UTC-5, Zod wrote:
>> Jordy C. wrote:
>> >
>> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gyL5ie6-x0
>>
>> Quite of ionterest, I am reading the transcript as of now...
>>
>> **********************************
>>
>> Transcript
>>
>>
>> 0:00
>> sitting with me as dr. Herbert minutiae a professor of politics and philosophy at Brandeis University and the author of
>> 0:07
>> the recent book entitled one-dimensional man published by beacon press and also John Simon who's an editor of New York
>> 0:13
>> publishing house and we're going to be discussing dr. marcoh whose book one-dimensional man and this is a book
>> 0:20
>> as I understand it which is about the United States and its general thesis is
>> 0:25
>> that in certain significant ways we have reached situation or are reaching a
>> 0:30
>> situation with it which is extremely close to a totalitarian society and I
>> 0:37
>> think we'll begin by discussing what precisely we mean by this and I want to quote from dr. Marcus's book you're
>> 0:44
>> right by virtue of the way in his organized his technological base contemporary industrial society tends to
>> 0:51
>> be totalitarian for totalitarian is not only a terroristic political coordination of society but also a non
>> 0:58
>> terroristic economic technical coordination which operates through the manipulation of needs by vested
>> 1:05
>> interests it does precludes the emergence of an effective opposition against the whole not only the specific
>> 1:12
>> form of government or party rule makes for totalitarianism but also a specific
>> 1:17
>> system of production and distribution which may well be compatible with a pluralism of parties newspapers
>> 1:23
>> countervailing powers etc and I wonder if you'd begin by telling us precisely
>> 1:28
>> what you mean in this sense by totalitarian yes may I begin by a
>> 1:34
>> qualifying a little what you said I wish only my book total of dear we see a
>> 1:39
>> United States a deal esse quotation shows with certain tendencies not more
>> 1:47
>> certain tendencies which I think are observable in the most advanced areas of
>> 1:55
>> industrial civilization the most advanced area of industrial civilization
>> 2:01
>> of course is the United States today but even in the United States the tendencies
>> 2:07
>> to which I point are prevailing if they
>> 2:12
>> are prevailing at or not simply beginning to show themselves only in certain advanced
>> 2:20
>> areas meaning as is very known that are still vast regions of under development
>> 2:26
>> of poverty even in the United States now by a totalitarian I used the term fully
>> 2:34
>> aware that this might violate certain taboos we are used to apply the term
>> 2:42
>> totalitarian only to well first the fascist and Nazi society then the
>> 2:49
>> communist society that is to say we are used to apply the term totalitarian to
>> 2:55
>> societies under more or less terroristic dictatorship with a one-party system
>> 3:02
>> with the more or less terroristic elimination of all opposition I believe
>> 3:10
>> that such a confined restricted use of the term totalitarian is itself
>> 3:16
>> ideological because it may serve to cover up the fact at least in my opinion
>> 3:23
>> a fact where totalitarian tendencies are beginning to show even in societies
>> 3:31
>> which are still democratic which preserves in democratic poses and institutions which have several parties
>> 3:39
>> which may even have countervailing forces by totalitarian I mean the
>> 3:49
>> constellation of situation enrich the private as well as public existence of
>> 3:57
>> man of the individual is controlled is
>> 4:04
>> exposed to standardised required ways of
>> 4:11
>> behavior standardized imposed values standardized imposed needs this can be
>> 4:19
>> done by a private as well as by a public you're cutting it can be done why are
>> 4:25
>> the correctly Democratic Media of mass communication and so on it is in a way a
>> 4:33
>> consequence as a quote source of technical formulas which implies mass
>> 4:40
>> production and mass distribution mass production and mass distribution in turn
>> 4:46
>> require a considerable degree of standardization a considerable degree of
>> 4:52
>> submission of the individual to pre given and superimposed values ideas
>> 5:01
>> aspirations goers and so on is this a necessary condition of this particular productive capacity and system
>> 5:09
>> well the tale of necessary apply to history is a very question of the term
>> 5:16
>> we can see in a strict sense if you mean it in the sense of a physical law nothing is necessarily an estimate I do
>> 5:24
>> think it is the by-product at present inevitable byproduct of the way in which
>> 5:32
>> technical progress actually has taken place in industrial society and this and
>> 5:40
>> and this this argument applies as well to societies that are organized and I more or less individualistic basis as
>> 5:47
>> well as those that are collectivistic aliy organized that is the same critique
>> 5:52
>> applies as well to the soviet union or to the countries in the Soviet bloc as it does to the United States you would
>> 5:58
>> you would argue that I would say it applies in the sense that similar tendencies oh I think observable there
>> 6:06
>> of course was vast differences based on the entirely different foundation and
>> 6:12
>> organization of the entire economy but in as much as the Soviet Union will very
>> 6:19
>> soon join the most advanced areas of industrial civilization I think the two
>> 6:25
>> systems will become more or less assimilated I think I think we want to make clear at this point because you do
>> 6:31
>> make it clear in your book that you do see differences between the Soviet Union and the United States differences
>> 6:37
>> and maybe you are a ground away where the obvious difference is that the
>> 6:42
>> society as I just mentioned is organized on an essentially different basis the
>> 6:49
>> collective ownership and control of the means of production regardless of whether or not you consider it as
>> 6:55
>> already socialist or not socialist at all is a sufficiently different form a
>> 7:02
>> society organized on the basis of private control and ownership of the means of production to make for decisive
>> 7:10
>> differences in the tendencies of development there is also if there is there not a difference in the legal
>> 7:17
>> basis of control by the state or is there nobody mid by legal basis well we
>> 7:24
>> are to some extent individuals and their own participation and their own ability to dissent are protected more in the
>> 7:33
>> American system than in the Soviet system they are certainly more protected
>> 7:39
>> they are even institutionalized as the American system they are not institutionalized in the Soviet system
>> 7:45
>> but precisely here I have my way I have a great fear that this
>> 7:52
>> institutionalization of civil rights and especially the right and Liberty to dissent is gradually eroded is reduced
>> 8:01
>> not much at all not by a conspiracy but simply by the
>> 8:06
>> mechanisms of technical goals within the
>> 8:13
>> framework of the established institutions which are before we get
>> 8:19
>> into a discussion of that particular area since we're attempting to define
>> 8:25
>> your use of totalitarian which I take it is quite different than say call Friedreich's use of the word oh yes I
>> 8:32
>> wanted to ask about the about the the
>> 8:37
>> applicability of the concept to the non advanced sectors of the world where
>> 8:44
>> particularly those countries that are now labeled socialist and are going into four extents planning and and use of many of the
>> 8:52
>> kinds of controls that you suggest exist in advanced industrial society Ghana Cuba Algeria for example the definition
>> 9:01
>> begin to apply in these countries as well on these areas that is one of the
>> 9:07
>> most difficult questions to raise and to answer on the one hand I would say and
>> 9:14
>> it may sound paradoxical although I don't think it is paradoxical that these
>> 9:19
>> countries precisely because they are not yet at the advanced stage of
>> 9:26
>> industrialization where they have to buy all the negative features of this kind
>> 9:34
>> of industrialization that these countries have a better chance of
>> 9:41
>> proceeding differently that these countries have a better chance of building form Scott a failure and a more
>> 9:50
>> human society but there are other impediments here namely that the vast
>> 9:59
>> majority of these countries is too weak in resources intellectual as well as
>> 10:06
>> material to do it by themselves they are by themselves as far as I can
>> 10:13
>> see again with some exceptions incapable of accumulating the funds capital funds
>> 10:21
>> that would be necessary for development and therefore will have to rely on
>> 10:26
>> outside help which can come only from the east or from the west and I am a
>> 10:33
>> friends of less this dependence on outside health would not almost
>> 10:38
>> inevitably these countries lead along the path that present gone either by the
>> 10:47
>> east or by serviced so that the idea of a third force is still a more or less a
>> 10:53
>> utopian idea one more question on in this general area the Isaac torture in
>> 11:02
>> his book the the great contest where he dealt with with issues of the Cold War
>> 11:09
>> which were not really central to this discussion suggested that the the
>> 11:15
>> potential the ultimate potential for freedom in the organization of the in in
>> 11:21
>> this sense of the totalitarian soviet society was far greater than existed in
>> 11:26
>> any area of the West because of the of the way in which the controls were applied and were used would you agree
>> 11:33
>> with this the formulation of mr. Deutsch is I agree up to a very definite point
>> 11:38
>> if Georgia wants to say that the establishment of a plant society it does
>> 11:46
>> not have to cope with the vested interests which otherwise stand in the
>> 11:53
>> way of a utilization of all available resources for the satisfaction of vital
>> 12:00
>> needs wherever they are still not satisfied rather than proceeding through wastes
>> 12:07
>> and planned obsolescence if he wants to say that I agree entirely there
>> 12:13
>> searching a centrally planned society in which the counteracting vested interest
>> 12:19
>> are indeed eliminated would have a far greater potential to develop humanity
>> 12:26
>> let's say in short then another society but here I think we have to place the
>> 12:32
>> development of Soviet society in the actual context of peaceful or rather
>> 12:38
>> hostile coexistence which means that the Soviet Union - at present sees itself
>> 12:45
>> committed to divert a vast section of its resources of the social wealth to
>> 12:52
>> armament production and thereby has to
>> 12:57
>> impose sacrifices which otherwise would not have to be imposed I think maybe it
>> 13:07
>> something we got to explore a little bit at this point is is it to go back to this question of the territory and the
>> 13:12
>> reason I come back to it I think is because it isn't the provocative word to be used in the context of modern American life one of
>> 13:21
>> the things you talk about in this regard is the range in the nature of choice available in this society and one should
>> 13:30
>> say I suppose in the first place that it seems that there is a great range of choice to some extent we have to all choose our political candidates and our
>> 13:37
>> pretty well our political leaders from a range of candidates we choose what the particular job you want to go to what
>> 13:43
>> education education we want to go to really choose a candidate or are they not chosen for us do i and you won't
>> 13:51
>> Weber it is choose a candidate which was actually or running order somebody else does a machine or I don't know what do
>> 13:58
>> it well there is a choice at least between different candidates with different points of view mr. Barry
>> 14:03
>> Goldwater has a different orientation I believed and then our president Johnson
>> 14:10
>> yes certainly are these real choices they are real choices wherever you have
>> 14:16
>> a real difference of opinion now I'm again God you early suspicious
>> 14:23
>> of the speeches and platforms and programs made before the elections they
>> 14:31
>> are usually hardly in any relation to what happened after the election if you
>> 14:36
>> have still a real difference of opinion I would say you indeed have a choice and
>> 14:42
>> you have freedom of choice but that is precisely what I start to doubt the mere
>> 14:48
>> fact is that we have two parties does not yet by itself mean that these
>> 14:54
>> parties differ in the accenture attitudes and opinions there may well be
>> 15:02
>> differences within one and the same accepted and established framework in
>> 15:08
>> which case both parties would compete in preserving the existing framework rather
>> 15:16
>> than working for alternatives if they are any alternatives one of the
>> 15:21
>> traditional areas of dissent aside from the political arena choice have been the academies and the
>> 15:27
>> distance of an intellectual community which at times historically has seen
>> 15:32
>> things differently than the current establishment of a society do you see in
>> 15:39
>> in the academies the existence of a real dissent and a real opposition of
>> 15:44
>> alternatives by academies you mean universities colleges and so on yes well
>> 15:53
>> I would say since this is precisely the field where I do have experience that is
>> 15:59
>> perhaps today the area which is still the freest of order my long experience
>> 16:07
>> with students has shown me that these students at least when they enter the
>> 16:13
>> university are still entirely open minded that they think by themselves
>> 16:20
>> that they preserve their open mind that they are highly critical and that's a
>> 16:28
>> really talk at least if they know that they can talk that depends on the with
>> 16:34
>> whom they talk gradually however the dire need makes itself first to look for
>> 16:42
>> a job they know perfectly well that if they go on like that if they continue to
>> 16:48
>> have really dissenting opinions and not only slight differences in opinion it
>> 16:53
>> may be very difficult for them to find a job and that sooner or later they have
>> 16:59
>> to adopt modes of behavior in which at least they conceal the dissent or
>> 17:07
>> express it in such a way that it does not cause a scandal and I certainly
>> 17:13
>> don't blame them for doing it but is this really is this really sufficient to explain a lack of this and
>> 17:19
>> there have been scholars and intellectuals who have been able to take a dissenting position in terms of
>> 17:24
>> publication and one thinks of individuals like Searight Mills and and in a much different sense and in a much
>> 17:30
>> more popular sense Vance Packard how would you account for the existence of these people and how would you account
>> 17:37
>> for the fact that there are not more likely I would not I say and I don't think I did say that
>> 17:44
>> we have no dissent and what I did say and what I mean and what I would like to
>> 17:50
>> repeat is we have a considerable amount of dissent we can afford this dissent
>> 17:58
>> because it remains completely and entirely in effective we can afford to
>> 18:07
>> have C right minutes we can afford to let Vance Packard say things which
>> 18:14
>> formally would have been very meticulously considered because our
>> 18:22
>> society is so strong so cohesive so a powerful that these revelations don't do
>> 18:31
>> it any harm and in a sense that is good but in another sense and perhaps and the
>> 18:38
>> deeper sentence is very bad John YES on the question I have two questions really
>> 18:44
>> but first I'd like to ask you about the particular phenomenon of Vance Packard uh he sells in the hundreds of thousands
>> 18:54
>> of copies and is in his widely read and
>> 18:59
>> and yet seems to have no real influence in the society it's the kind of thing
>> 19:04
>> that just slips off the surface that it makes perhaps a momentary impression and
>> 19:10
>> disappears and of course in the case of see right mills professor mills wrote a
>> 19:17
>> book club listen Yankee which sold over 400,000 copies and was read as I noticed
>> 19:22
>> by Subway's by secretaries writing on the subway and yet again made no
>> 19:27
>> impression the society seems not only confident to allow dissenters to exist
>> 19:34
>> but to allow them to be fairly widely disseminated in some cases what how
>> 19:41
>> would you want to comment on the phenomenon of the lack of impression of these people in the end the processes
>> 19:47
>> and devices by with which this is accomplished yes because I believe there's another in
>> 19:53
>> rushon which overrides and we consent in the last analysis destroys as the or
>> 20:01
>> mate it makes impotent as the impressions left as these books there is name is the
>> 20:07
>> impression that that never mind after our this society functions
>> 20:13
>> beautifully and efficiently it has succeeded in vastly increasing astonied
>> 20:21
>> of living in distributing its benefits over larger section of the former
>> 20:27
>> underprivileged population we still have these large areas of poverty but nothing
>> 20:36
>> proves that these areas cannot sooner or later also be taken care off
>> 20:42
>> so what these people reveal and indict are simply byproducts of the famous
>> 20:54
>> affluent society byproducts which are present we have to cope with but which
>> 21:00
>> are not really in any way serious and dangerous the the event in the in the
>> 21:07
>> recent past that seems most to bear this out it seems to me it was the
>> 21:13
>> assassination of the president where there existed at least the opportunity
>> 21:20
>> for an act and and the consequences of
>> 21:25
>> the active to have a deep impress on the American people and yet it was as if the
>> 21:31
>> the display of that for days was like another television rugged similar to
>> 21:37
>> show exact which we had after four days it was completely incorporated into the daily business of life there was a new
>> 21:44
>> president things are going on yes I'm well what I wanted to ask you was to
>> 21:50
>> perhaps comment a little bit more on the the the specific techniques and methods
>> 21:55
>> since the the mass communications industry plays such a large role in this
>> 22:01
>> whole process would you care to comment on that
>> 22:06
>> yes but again I don't want to make the impression that I consider the only
>> 22:13
>> thing as a conspiracy once a part of the media of mass communication we have a
>> 22:20
>> conspiratorial aspect they are to only a remind you of see a set of the frame of
>> 22:27
>> self-censorship which is exercised by the press by the movie industry whatever
>> 22:33
>> it is a self-censorship far more effective and far more efficient than
>> 22:38
>> any state instituted censor that is not the point I think that these are all
>> 22:46
>> these developments have a very rational basis namely precisely let our system
>> 22:56
>> works and because it works because it is so productive because it distributes
>> 23:04
>> such benefits we repress the pious which we pay for this affluence a world which
>> 23:12
>> by the way I would only use a in quotation marks it is this repression it is the repression of the price it cost
>> 23:19
>> the sacrifices that are involved which
>> 23:25
>> is actually that what bothers me most raises a question because thus far even
>> 23:31
>> speaking about such here again I use quotation marks intangibles in quotation
>> 23:37
>> marks is the range of choice available not being truly a meaningful choice and the social sciences and the academic
>> 23:45
>> institutions while tolerating some dissent nonetheless not really participating in the development and
>> 23:51
>> movement of the society what's wrong with the society as it now stands is there a need to change the society
>> 23:57
>> I mean don't after all we have haven't we if not if we haven't achieved utopia
>> 24:03
>> aren't we getting close to reaching utopia at least in terms of the production of material goods and
>> 24:09
>> physical comfort well that question leads to Z what I consider the calls or
>> 24:15
>> who at problem rods in a rather large cause of mine as
>> 24:21
>> universities a question it was a kind of examination question I asked the
>> 24:27
>> students I want to change I want you to tell me what is wrong was a society I never got an answer
>> 24:33
>> nobody could or nobody dare to tell me what is actually wrong with a society did the students want the course and
>> 24:39
>> knows I didn't because again I completely understand why they didn't is
>> 24:44
>> I want to tell me or didn't know what is wrong with it is an T I have to become a
>> 24:52
>> little philosophical and even a little utopian for me the world utopia makes no
>> 24:59
>> sense because in my view there's nothing today which could be a reason to be
>> 25:04
>> called utopia mankind has reached a stage where if it wanted to it could actually within a
>> 25:11
>> relatively short time translate into reality even the most utopian idea so
>> 25:18
>> the term utopia again is a subterfuge
>> 25:23
>> what as long as a society is that it retains that it perpetuates the struggle
>> 25:31
>> for existence tall frustration waste
>> 25:39
>> although all the intellectual and material capabilities are there to
>> 25:47
>> pacify this table before existence in the international arena as well as
>> 25:53
>> within the nation and force a private individual and by a pacification of the
>> 26:01
>> struggle for existence I mean something I think very concrete I expressed it in
>> 26:07
>> the phrase and I think your listener will listen as we know what I'm talking
>> 26:14
>> about the abolition of alienated labor we have reached a stage where industrial
>> 26:21
>> civilization really could reduce working time to such an extent that the
>> 26:28
>> traditional proportion between working time and free timelessly worst that free time becomes
>> 26:34
>> full time and working time marginal time this would involve a complete
>> 26:42
>> transvaluation of values it would cancel
>> 26:47
>> some of the most cherished abuse of the established organization for example the
>> 26:54
>> need for earning a living instead of making life and end in itself and not a
>> 27:01
>> means to attain an end which is either never attained or only in an age where
>> 27:06
>> you cannot enjoy it anymore this I think today is the alternative and this art relative is systematically
>> 27:14
>> again not in terms of a conspiracy about objectively prevented by the way in
>> 27:23
>> which we continue as he established direction of progress well there are two
>> 27:28
>> points there and it would be fair to rephrase the first part of that to say in a kind of shorthand sense that while
>> 27:36
>> we have the possibility of living within a society of Plenty the society is still organized as if it were a society of
>> 27:43
>> scarcity no for one very simple reason
>> 27:49
>> you don't need plenty in order to have a humane society I would even go so far
>> 27:57
>> and there again you will have to protect me I would even be a good so far as to
>> 28:03
>> say that one of the crimes of our present area you are is that we have too
>> 28:10
>> much there in a situation where the vast majority of the people of the earth have
>> 28:16
>> to litter so it is not a question of Plenty well let me change to other than the comparison between enough we had the
>> 28:23
>> potential of developing a society based on enough and we're still living as a society based on scarcity that's correct
>> 28:31
>> now the second part of that the second part of what you just said can I interrupt you I'm a question of enough
>> 28:38
>> and scarcity isn't it also true that
>> 28:44
>> that the the concept of scarcity doesn't apply because the the need to waste is
>> 28:52
>> so paramount injustice society certainly the need to waste as paramount as a need
>> 28:58
>> to waste is absolutely essential because it is a need for waste which in turn
>> 29:06
>> perpetuates the need for earning a living the need for growth for doing
>> 29:12
>> work which in fact technically is already superfluous can we make you into
>> 29:19
>> a bit of a visionary and ask you to discuss what the nature of a society that where the concepts of work and
>> 29:26
>> leisure breakdown will be like or what you would expect you cannot because we
>> 29:34
>> are at present I think utterly incapable to draft anything like a blueprint for
>> 29:41
>> such a society it is so easily ridiculed
>> 29:49
>> because we always assume that the individuals si have been preconditioned
>> 29:56
>> si are now will suddenly be placed in a situation in which as they don't have to
>> 30:02
>> work for a living anymore in which they don't have to earn a living anymore in which most of their time as free time
>> 30:10
>> and it is then very easy to say and I agree that would be a catastrophe and a detail perhaps the greatest catastrophe
>> 30:17
>> of the civilization it would be complete chaos it would be a nightmare there we
>> 30:23
>> cannot and risen envision such a society because it was so radically different
>> 30:28
>> from what we have now that any such vision would really be innovative
>> 30:34
>> responsible well let me try this comment then that we have the potential of
>> 30:39
>> developing however it might be organized and set up something approaching what has traditionally been considered a
>> 30:46
>> utopian kind of existence yes now then
>> 30:51
>> you then go on in the second part of your earlier statement to say that you see the society however
>> 30:57
>> moving and with tendencies which not only are not leading toward the establishment or existence of this kind
>> 31:03
>> of society but are actually leading in the other direction and this is what I wanted to to question you on because
>> 31:09
>> hadn't had always been true that the technological abilities of society have
>> 31:14
>> been ahead of the social abilities of the society to use utilize these techniques isn't this simply a question
>> 31:22
>> of cultural lag why isn't it that we aren't in fact slowly evolving a
>> 31:28
>> framework whereby we can use these technological developments to create a healthy human society because in my view
>> 31:36
>> it is not simply a time lag or a cultural lag in any other sense the
>> 31:44
>> decisive difference here is that what is in worth is not simply a better
>> 31:51
>> utilization and a better development of the available technical resources but
>> 31:58
>> what I called a radical redirection of technical progress itself and such a
>> 32:05
>> radical redirection of technical progress namely first to the satisfaction of vital needs and to a
>> 32:12
>> pacification such a radical redirection is in my view not possible within the
>> 32:21
>> established framework but would involve a sweeping change in our institutions
>> 32:29
>> which we're still institutions adopted to scarcity and not to what we
>> 32:37
>> potentially have now why can't this change be made let me let me also quote
>> 32:44
>> at this point something from your introduction that may or may not throw a light on on what I'm getting at you said
>> 32:50
>> here that the way in which is assigned he organizes the life of its members involves an initial choice between
>> 32:57
>> historical alternatives which are determined by the inherited level of the material and intellectual culture the
>> 33:03
>> choice itself results from the play of the dominant interests it anticipates
>> 33:08
>> specific modes transforming and utilized man in nature and rejects other modes etc the word I was I was looking at
>> 33:15
>> there with the word choice if I would not believe that such a redirection is
>> 33:22
>> historically possible I wouldn't have written my book as far as it choices
>> 33:27
>> concerned there indeed I am very pessimistic because the choice would
>> 33:35
>> require among other things men who live
>> 33:41
>> in the dire need for such a change this dire need is as I pointed out today
>> 33:49
>> effectively repressed it would furthermore require that these people
>> 33:56
>> who live in need of such a change actually have the power to bring the
>> 34:01
>> change about this to at present is not the case
>> 34:07
>> does anybody map it from this society as it's currently set up yes most certainly
>> 34:12
>> I think if not the majority at least a large segment of the population benefit
>> 34:19
>> for it and that is precisely why it is so serious a wider so pain for you that
>> 34:24
>> you criticize a society but I believe that Wars at stake than these benefits
>> 34:32
>> where to use a cliche or though I hate it I seriously believe that the chances
>> 34:40
>> of a human and humane existence for all without war the are at stake and in view
>> 34:48
>> of these chances I think one has to criticize even a society which is more
>> 34:54
>> beneficial to more people perhaps and any preceding society in history but in
>> 35:01
>> a sense it also it also doesn't it although it may benefit some members more than others it also does well it
>> 35:13
>> also wraps up those who benefit to some extent and and doesn't allow for their own full full development as human
>> 35:20
>> beings and I think this is what you meant when you spoke at one point the world to become the staff of total administration which absorbs even the
>> 35:26
>> administrators yes it absorbs not only the administrators it suffocates not
>> 35:34
>> only the need for a redirection of progress but it even does a best to
>> 35:41
>> arrest as a development of concepts and modes of thoughts which could define
>> 35:49
>> good sketch alternatives of the development not only a quantitative the
>> 35:56
>> changes but qualitative changes that is why I have the critique of present a
>> 36:02
>> positivism and a criticism which I consider a pseudoaneurysm a false and
>> 36:10
>> premise ism because it Orient's itself on a restricted and manipulated
>> 36:16
>> experience I just want to push you in this on a second and then on John I know has a question previously it might be
>> 36:25
>> said that a society that benefitted certain groups in the society rather than others had to be maintained in the
>> 36:31
>> eyes of those who benefited because it was simply impossible technologically for the group that benefited to maintain
>> 36:38
>> its particular benefits in an equalitarian totally equalitarian system
>> 36:45
>> but now we have a society where that is no longer impossible where in fact those who benefit need not give up very much
>> 36:51
>> in order to share their benefits with the others in the society through the advent of automation cybernetics and
>> 36:58
>> these techniques also in the current situation isn't it true that those who
>> 37:04
>> benefit could benefit more in a different social situation why then isn't it possible that traditional
>> 37:12
>> leadership groups themselves could at this point under these conditions make the transition to a different kind of
>> 37:17
>> society because it would be as far as I draw the first case of their story in
>> 37:23
>> which a invested and intentionally darshan or a ruling class if you wish
>> 37:30
>> has voluntarily abdicated the chances that the
>> 37:36
>> a not benefit the way they benefit now the risk of serious disruptions and even
>> 37:45
>> of a catastrophe and Worf is such that they will understandably not be willing
>> 37:53
>> to voluntarily to institute so exchanges
>> 38:00
>> direct from in the same society I think argues that they're um are are certain
>> 38:07
>> strong reasons why those who even those involved in leadership do not benefit as greatly into society as they could from
>> 38:14
>> a different kind of society couldn't this act is a sufficient stimulation to Lana where leadership tonight a
>> 38:20
>> transition there no as far as I remember Indian spy that simply well for example
>> 38:28
>> that the rich are not happy now in the first place I never took that very
>> 38:34
>> seriously and I don't believe that the unhappiness or so it should really be a
>> 38:41
>> matter of serious concern and in the second place I don't think you can
>> 38:46
>> interpret this reluctance primarily in Psychological terms what is involved
>> 38:52
>> after all is a deed to speak perfectly frankly a fundamental change and as he
>> 38:58
>> established political and economic institutions has already indicated for
>> 39:04
>> example a plant economy really plant economy with priority set on the
>> 39:10
>> satisfaction of needs is not compatible
>> 39:15
>> with the present private control of the economy with these individual one final
>> 39:22
>> question on this point with these with this leadership be giving up much more than simply a question of status and
>> 39:28
>> leadership would they be giving up any material conditions of livelihood again
>> 39:36
>> looking back at history it is at least possible or probable that they would
>> 39:45
>> indeed have to give up much of what they have now that others would move in we want to do
>> 39:52
>> it in a different way that I would indeed say John yes you describe an a
>> 40:00
>> contradiction or an antagonism between the need for change and I assume this is
>> 40:07
>> a kind of objective need that exists without the wishes or rub or feelings of
>> 40:13
>> of anyone and the repression of the expression of the need for this change
>> 40:18
>> now do you foresee in any in any sense
>> 40:25
>> perhaps even in the classical Marcion sense a breakdown based on this kind of
>> 40:30
>> contradiction in the system that will force some kind of change perhaps not
>> 40:35
>> the one that we want or the one that you foresee the possibilities of such a
>> 40:42
>> breakdown are such that I think that
>> 40:48
>> yields a most rabid Marxist would wish them for example I could imagine that a
>> 40:55
>> nuclear war or even a short of in declare war a large-scale international
>> 41:02
>> war would release the forces that may
>> 41:08
>> make for such a redirection of progress but who's insane enough to wish that you
>> 41:16
>> don't see it see such a breakdown stemming from less cataclysmic factors
>> 41:24
>> like stagnation within the economy or some kind of breakdown in the in the
>> 41:29
>> arrangement and organization of our social and sexual mores for example
>> 41:35
>> there's a group in among writers for example Norman Mailer
>> 41:42
>> in particular who talks about the sexual revolution these factors have any
>> 41:49
>> significance to your way of thinking could we expand sexual other kind of a whole moral Christ yes well that's what
>> 41:54
>> I think there is more lovely disasters and almost cubital applications of the
>> 42:02
>> term evolution we have in our evolution of the coca-cola company brings out the bottle it is a revolution and bottling
>> 42:09
>> we have a revolution in the order and whoever a loom evolution and everything only we don't have a revolution rather
>> 42:17
>> the only field in which the term revolution makes any sense I don't see a sexual revolution at all
>> 42:23
>> on the contrary as I try to point out in my book I see a very nice very welcome
>> 42:30
>> and very as pleasurable and pleasant adaptation of sexual mores to the
>> 42:37
>> requirements of the affluent society which simply cannot do any more with a
>> 42:43
>> Victorian morality that has nothing to do with an evolution took to follow up
>> 42:50
>> on that the this very pleasant
>> 42:58
>> development than our sexual and social mores that you talk about seems to
>> 43:04
>> develop somewhat in opposition to the to the non terroristic totalitarian izing
>> 43:12
>> of a society yes well no I doubt even let doubt even let because the more
>> 43:19
>> sexual freedom people have within the established within the establishment and
>> 43:28
>> without being punished by the establishment the easier they are to
>> 43:33
>> guide the easier they are to manipulate now please don't misunderstand me I will
>> 43:38
>> be the last to condemn this liberation and sexual morality let me ask you a
>> 43:45
>> question historically uh maybe you can answer you don't want to or can't answer this but and this I thought of this one John
>> 43:53
>> brought up the question of the web llama use of a revolution that changes in our
>> 43:58
>> sexual mores in addition we find certain tendencies taking place in art and
>> 44:04
>> literature and also in the use of drugs which seem possibly to be interrelated
>> 44:09
>> here there's been a great deal of talk about another revolution the the drug
>> 44:15
>> revolution the use of consciousness expanding drugs were with mr. Timothy
>> 44:20
>> Leary and if if International Federation for internal freedom and similarly
>> 44:26
>> artists in perhaps analogous Y and in Abstract Expressionism in tendencies
>> 44:32
>> like this have have developed an art form which becomes at least to me so solipsistic that it almost ceases to
>> 44:38
>> have any relevance other than for oneself are there historical parallels
>> 44:43
>> and these kinds of developments and other social tendencies and developments and when one here is a great deal I I
>> 44:50
>> was thinking of the decline of the Roman Empire for example as being a time of libertine ism and a concern with extreme
>> 45:01
>> individuality the period following the French Revolution yes rather period following the French Revolution the
>> 45:08
>> period of Sydney liked was slightly different because there did you at a considerable degree of genuine freedom
>> 45:16
>> in these things provided you belong to deter a nest away the others didn't have it and never did have it as far as it
>> 45:24
>> dogs are concerned this is very close to my heart because again unfortunately in the universities you know we are very
>> 45:32
>> much concerned with it in this respect I'm a terrible reactionary as in many
>> 45:38
>> other aspects I think that Doc's are reprehensible and that the only case in
>> 45:45
>> which they are to be welcomed is in case of pain of insufferable physical pain in
>> 45:53
>> all other cases they cannot possibly do what these people pretend as they do
>> 46:01
>> especially not an art literature development of consciousness or these if
>> 46:07
>> any singer acts of human freedom and if they are not the development at
>> 46:13
>> attainment of human freedom they will invariably a compressor opposite over
>> 46:18
>> they are supposed to be air to accomplish namely some kind of illusionary a happiness illusory
>> 46:25
>> contentment illusory experience which again may very well become a vehicle of
>> 46:31
>> adjustment rather than the opposite but isn't the ability in a certain sense to to take drugs which can expand your
>> 46:38
>> personal individual consciousness to their greatest extent if in fact this is what they do or to work in art forms
>> 46:45
>> which which expands one one's own feelings and emotions to the utmost
>> 46:50
>> isn't this really a kind of liberation and freedom which is unparalleled in
>> 46:56
>> history well maybe it is a revelation form things for which you shouldn't be liberated because they are precisely the
>> 47:03
>> very essence of the present state of affairs and if you liberate yourself artificially form it what you actually
>> 47:10
>> do is not develop your consciousness but arrest your consciousness in other words
>> 47:15
>> this isn't so much a freedom to as a freedom from exactly you talk to the
>> 47:21
>> misuse of the term revolution would you apply the the same approbation to the
>> 47:30
>> use of the term in in the context of the civil rights movement the Negro
>> 47:35
>> revolution as well do you see this in other words as a as a sign as a factor
>> 47:45
>> for change in the Society of a significant sword feet before you mention that I let me just point out but
>> 47:51
>> I think what possibly were working toward is some is is to see whether or not there are areas in which or forces
>> 47:58
>> within the society which offer an opportunity for social change of some kind am I wrong John no yeah that's
>> 48:03
>> right yes it is certainly this movement certainly is a movement towards social
>> 48:10
>> change I would not call it a revolution because
>> 48:15
>> I personally cannot understand how you can call a revolution a movement which
>> 48:23
>> tries to implement the principles of the Declaration of Independence I mean as a
>> 48:30
>> mere fact that we have to have such a movement today almost 200 years after
>> 48:37
>> the Declaration of Independence I think characterizes our society sufficiently
>> 48:43
>> it is not a revolution it will see a effort to finally to translate into
>> 48:52
>> reality and what was promised a centuries ago the promise was which
>> 48:58
>> actually modern society began and which is still not translated into reality
>> 49:04
>> see right mills dealt with two other groups within the society namely the
>> 49:09
>> labor movement and the intellectuals would you apply the same criticism to
>> 49:15
>> both of these groups you want to deal with them in turn I did not apply any criticism as far as I remember to the
>> 49:22
>> civil rights movement into the Negro movement as far as far as a lady I
>> 49:27
>> didn't mean criticism had sense but an estimate of every yes as far as labor
>> 49:34
>> movement is concerned or I can say is that at present organized labor in the
>> 49:41
>> United States and not only in the United States has nothing to do anymore of this
>> 49:46
>> and what Marx wants court as a polity reott and the develop a consciousness
>> 49:54
>> and see revolutionary potential off as apologia
>> 49:59
>> organized labor has today become one of the countervailing powers their
>> 50:05
>> cooperating wizards counter countervailing power in the strengthening and improvement of the
>> 50:12
>> powers that be again I certainly do not
>> 50:18
>> say that in any way as a kind of accusation or indictment only in order
>> 50:23
>> to characterize as the difference between the present state of affairs and the julep to 19th
>> 50:31
>> century and in this country the turkeys would a class analysis of the society
>> 50:39
>> still have any meaning given the the widespread affluence and the repression
>> 50:46
>> of any significant consciousness of problems within the society I can't help
>> 50:54
>> it but I do believe that we still have a class Society a class Society is not
>> 51:00
>> characterized by the increasing higher standard of living of the wid classes
>> 51:06
>> what is characterized today most outspokenly characterized by the fact
>> 51:13
>> that we have one group or class which by
>> 51:19
>> virtue of its position in the social and economic process decides and determines
>> 51:27
>> the fate of the entire population and that the majority of the population
>> 51:33
>> again by virtue of they are positioned in the social and economic process is
>> 51:41
>> really not in any way self determinating
>> 51:46
>> in speaking of classes let me only first bring up something else when you speak of of social change and how it takes
>> 51:52
>> place and I'll quote here you say first which we've already said the choice is
>> 51:58
>> primarily but only primarily the privilege of those groups which have attained control over the productive
>> 52:03
>> processes their control projects the way of life for the whole and the ensuing and enslaving necessity is the result of
>> 52:10
>> their freedom then you say and the possible abolition of this necessity pens on a new ingression of freedom not
>> 52:16
>> any freedom but that of men who comprehend the given necessity as insufferable pain and as unnecessary so
>> 52:23
>> that here you set up with your criteria of social change a group which is I
>> 52:29
>> would say from this almost totally excluded from benefit to the society and you make this clear as you said earlier
>> 52:35
>> in terms of labor movement and you also make it clear when you speak of of the people in general and their ability to
>> 52:41
>> change the situation where you argue that in the redistribution of wealth and
>> 52:47
>> equalization of classes there is simply a new stratification characteristic of advanced industrial society and not any
>> 52:53
>> basic chance to change that method of stratification and ratification but then
>> 53:00
>> you close your book and this is only the last half page out of 257 it's true when
>> 53:06
>> you say however underneath the conservative popular base is the substratum of the outcasts and Outsiders
>> 53:13
>> the exploited and persecuted of other races and colors the unemployed and unemployable they exist outside the
>> 53:19
>> democratic process they're their life
>> 53:26
>> their life is the most immediate in the most real need for ending intolerable conditions and institutions thus their
>> 53:32
>> opposition is revolutionary even if their consciousness is not the fact that they start refusing to play the game
>> 53:38
>> maybe the fact which marks the beginning of the end of the period now is the fact
>> 53:44
>> that you spend only a half-page in this in any a sense characteristic of your evaluation of the possibility of this
>> 53:49
>> tendency only partly characteristic the other part is that as I say only the
>> 53:56
>> beginnings that may mark easy beginnings these group still are too powerless to
>> 54:04
>> accomplish a change by themselves what I would like to add here that if I speak
>> 54:11
>> of the ingestion of a new freedom motivated by the awareness of
>> 54:18
>> intolerable the conditions that does not necessarily and exclusively me and
>> 54:24
>> abject poverty and misery I for example
>> 54:29
>> can very well envisage conditions under which the social groups which are not
>> 54:37
>> prefer which are not a little in a live which do not live in misery become aware
>> 54:42
>> of the insanity of a society in which
>> 54:47
>> they have to continue in which their to continue alienated
>> 54:52
>> labor continual performances which they actually hate continue the struggle for
>> 55:01
>> existence which has become more and more a trace in the face of as impossible
>> 55:09
>> abolition of loyalties and that this awareness may well spread and become one
>> 55:15
>> of those potentially changing forces there currently are a number of programs
>> 55:20
>> taking place throughout the country and of course the one that have gotten the most press recently of the Appalachians for Appalachia but also here in New York
>> 55:28
>> City and elsewhere in Oakland California there have been a number of programs in which an enormous amount of money is
>> 55:34
>> being spent in extremely small locations and an attempt to take this particular group of the population and somehow
>> 55:40
>> integrate them into the society and I'm thinking of a project like the one going on in Harlem which is going to in which
>> 55:46
>> eighty million dollars is going to be invested or one on the Lower East Side which I believe has been allocated 120
>> 55:51
>> million dollars and as I understand it much of this money has come from extremely sophisticated extremely
>> 55:57
>> sophisticated area of the leadership of the nation do you think that these kinds
>> 56:02
>> of programs or any kind of program will be able to reduce the number of those who are unemployed and unemployable in
>> 56:09
>> other words which way do you see this tendency going do you see this this potentially revolutionary group increasing report or decreasing that is
>> 56:19
>> very hard to say because it depends entirely on the national and
>> 56:24
>> international situation as to the project you mentioned naturally any and
>> 56:30
>> every project that produces even in a small area misery and poverty and dirt
>> 56:38
>> is good and should be supported but
>> 56:43
>> without illusions that they do not have the key for the decisive change and it
>> 56:51
>> seems to be a clear because this is not a local Messiah but a fire that not only
>> 56:58
>> concerns the nation as a whole about a soup national core to John normal well let me
>> 57:06
>> ask one final question what do you see and I think in a sense you've answered this what do you see the role of of
>> 57:12
>> scholars and intellectuals to be given this particular state of society where
>> 57:19
>> there doesn't seem to be at least if your analysis is correct much concrete action that can be done at this point
>> 57:26
>> and indeed I'd say your analysis is a rather pessimistic one yes it is a
>> 57:31
>> pessimistic one and precisely in this situation as the intellectual the scholar perhaps has a more responsible
>> 57:40
>> or than he ever had before because it is his task today against all a apparent or
>> 57:49
>> real success to preserve or rather to
>> 57:56
>> develop those concepts those ideas those
>> 58:01
>> aspirations which do not succumb to the oil or the seeming benefits of any
>> 58:10
>> presence aasaiya t but which concepts and modes of thought which remain loyal
>> 58:17
>> to the essentially o it hopes and aspirations of mankind for a society in
>> 58:25
>> which as a struggle for existence as a deed pacified this is today and more
>> 58:31
>> than ever before a real possibility and the entire power and the entire wealth
>> 58:37
>> of our society is at present directed against this possibility precisely
>> 58:44
>> because it is over here so in this situation discolor and the intellectual has one of the most decisive tasks thank
>> 58:53
>> you very much we've been talking to dr. Herbert mark who's a professor of philosophy at Brandeis University and
>> 58:58
>> author of a recent for one-dimensional man published by beacon press and John Fannin an editor of a New York
>> 59:05
>> publishing house
>>
>>
>> *****************************************
> thanks GZ

Good morning, Jordy, interesting selection.