Jordy C wrote:

> Will Dockery wrote:
>> Jordy C wrote:
>> > Zod wrote:
>> > > Jordy C. wrote:
>
>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gyL5ie6-x0
>
>> > > >> Quite of interest, I am reading the transcript as of now...
>> > > >>
>> > > >> **********************************
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Transcript
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >> 0:00
>> > > >> sitting with me as dr. Herbert minutiae a professor of politics and philosophy at Brandeis University and the author of
>> > > >> 0:07
>> > > >> the recent book entitled one-dimensional man published by beacon press and also John Simon who's an editor of New York
>> > > >> 0:13
>> > > >> publishing house and we're going to be discussing dr. marcoh whose book one-dimensional man and this is a book
>> > > >> 0:20
>> > > >> as I understand it which is about the United States and its general thesis is
>> > > >> 0:25
>> > > >> that in certain significant ways we have reached situation or are reaching a
>> > > >> 0:30
>> > > >> situation with it which is extremely close to a totalitarian society and I
>> > > >> 0:37
>> > > >> think we'll begin by discussing what precisely we mean by this and I want to quote from dr. Marcus's book you're
>> > > >> 0:44
>> > > >> right by virtue of the way in his organized his technological base contemporary industrial society tends to
>> > > >> 0:51
>> > > >> be totalitarian for totalitarian is not only a terroristic political coordination of society but also a non
>> > > >> 0:58
>> > > >> terroristic economic technical coordination which operates through the manipulation of needs by vested
>> > > >> 1:05
>> > > >> interests it does precludes the emergence of an effective opposition against the whole not only the specific
>> > > >> 1:12
>> > > >> form of government or party rule makes for totalitarianism but also a specific
>> > > >> 1:17
>> > > >> system of production and distribution which may well be compatible with a pluralism of parties newspapers
>> > > >> 1:23
>> > > >> countervailing powers etc and I wonder if you'd begin by telling us precisely
>> > > >> 1:28
>> > > >> what you mean in this sense by totalitarian yes may I begin by a
>> > > >> 1:34
>> > > >> qualifying a little what you said I wish only my book total of dear we see a
>> > > >> 1:39
>> > > >> United States a deal esse quotation shows with certain tendencies not more
>> > > >> 1:47
>> > > >> certain tendencies which I think are observable in the most advanced areas of
>> > > >> 1:55
>> > > >> industrial civilization the most advanced area of industrial civilization
>> > > >> 2:01
>> > > >> of course is the United States today but even in the United States the tendencies
>> > > >> 2:07
>> > > >> to which I point are prevailing if they
>> > > >> 2:12
>> > > >> are prevailing at or not simply beginning to show themselves only in certain advanced
>> > > >> 2:20
>> > > >> areas meaning as is very known that are still vast regions of under development
>> > > >> 2:26
>> > > >> of poverty even in the United States now by a totalitarian I used the term fully
>> > > >> 2:34
>> > > >> aware that this might violate certain taboos we are used to apply the term
>> > > >> 2:42
>> > > >> totalitarian only to well first the fascist and Nazi society then the
>> > > >> 2:49
>> > > >> communist society that is to say we are used to apply the term totalitarian to
>> > > >> 2:55
>> > > >> societies under more or less terroristic dictatorship with a one-party system
>> > > >> 3:02
>> > > >> with the more or less terroristic elimination of all opposition I believe
>> > > >> 3:10
>> > > >> that such a confined restricted use of the term totalitarian is itself
>> > > >> 3:16
>> > > >> ideological because it may serve to cover up the fact at least in my opinion
>> > > >> 3:23
>> > > >> a fact where totalitarian tendencies are beginning to show even in societies
>> > > >> 3:31
>> > > >> which are still democratic which preserves in democratic poses and institutions which have several parties
>> > > >> 3:39
>> > > >> which may even have countervailing forces by totalitarian I mean the
>> > > >> 3:49
>> > > >> constellation of situation enrich the private as well as public existence of
>> > > >> 3:57
>> > > >> man of the individual is controlled is
>> > > >> 4:04
>> > > >> exposed to standardised required ways of
>> > > >> 4:11
>> > > >> behavior standardized imposed values standardized imposed needs this can be
>> > > >> 4:19
>> > > >> done by a private as well as by a public you're cutting it can be done why are
>> > > >> 4:25
>> > > >> the correctly Democratic Media of mass communication and so on it is in a way a
>> > > >> 4:33
>> > > >> consequence as a quote source of technical formulas which implies mass
>> > > >> 4:40
>> > > >> production and mass distribution mass production and mass distribution in turn
>> > > >> 4:46
>> > > >> require a considerable degree of standardization a considerable degree of
>> > > >> 4:52
>> > > >> submission of the individual to pre given and superimposed values ideas
>> > > >> 5:01
>> > > >> aspirations goers and so on is this a necessary condition of this particular productive capacity and system
>> > > >> 5:09
>> > > >> well the tale of necessary apply to history is a very question of the term
>> > > >> 5:16
>> > > >> we can see in a strict sense if you mean it in the sense of a physical law nothing is necessarily an estimate I do
>> > > >> 5:24
>> > > >> think it is the by-product at present inevitable byproduct of the way in which
>> > > >> 5:32
>> > > >> technical progress actually has taken place in industrial society and this and
>> > > >> 5:40
>> > > >> and this this argument applies as well to societies that are organized and I more or less individualistic basis as
>> > > >> 5:47
>> > > >> well as those that are collectivistic aliy organized that is the same critique
>> > > >> 5:52
>> > > >> applies as well to the soviet union or to the countries in the Soviet bloc as it does to the United States you would
>> > > >> 5:58
>> > > >> you would argue that I would say it applies in the sense that similar tendencies oh I think observable there
>> > > >> 6:06
>> > > >> of course was vast differences based on the entirely different foundation and
>> > > >> 6:12
>> > > >> organization of the entire economy but in as much as the Soviet Union will very
>> > > >> 6:19
>> > > >> soon join the most advanced areas of industrial civilization I think the two
>> > > >> 6:25
>> > > >> systems will become more or less assimilated I think I think we want to make clear at this point because you do
>> > > >> 6:31
>> > > >> make it clear in your book that you do see differences between the Soviet Union and the United States differences
>> > > >> 6:37
>> > > >> and maybe you are a ground away where the obvious difference is that the
>> > > >> 6:42
>> > > >> society as I just mentioned is organized on an essentially different basis the
>> > > >> 6:49
>> > > >> collective ownership and control of the means of production regardless of whether or not you consider it as
>> > > >> 6:55
>> > > >> already socialist or not socialist at all is a sufficiently different form a
>> > > >> 7:02
>> > > >> society organized on the basis of private control and ownership of the means of production to make for decisive
>> > > >> 7:10
>> > > >> differences in the tendencies of development there is also if there is there not a difference in the legal
>> > > >> 7:17
>> > > >> basis of control by the state or is there nobody mid by legal basis well we
>> > > >> 7:24
>> > > >> are to some extent individuals and their own participation and their own ability to dissent are protected more in the
>> > > >> 7:33
>> > > >> American system than in the Soviet system they are certainly more protected
>> > > >> 7:39
>> > > >> they are even institutionalized as the American system they are not institutionalized in the Soviet system
>> > > >> 7:45
>> > > >> but precisely here I have my way I have a great fear that this
>> > > >> 7:52
>> > > >> institutionalization of civil rights and especially the right and Liberty to dissent is gradually eroded is reduced
>> > > >> 8:01
>> > > >> not much at all not by a conspiracy but simply by the
>> > > >> 8:06
>> > > >> mechanisms of technical goals within the
>> > > >> 8:13
>> > > >> framework of the established institutions which are before we get
>> > > >> 8:19
>> > > >> into a discussion of that particular area since we're attempting to define
>> > > >> 8:25
>> > > >> your use of totalitarian which I take it is quite different than say call Friedreich's use of the word oh yes I
>> > > >> 8:32
>> > > >> wanted to ask about the about the the
>> > > >> 8:37
>> > > >> applicability of the concept to the non advanced sectors of the world where
>> > > >> 8:44
>> > > >> particularly those countries that are now labeled socialist and are going into four extents planning and and use of many of the
>> > > >> 8:52
>> > > >> kinds of controls that you suggest exist in advanced industrial society Ghana Cuba Algeria for example the definition
>> > > >> 9:01
>> > > >> begin to apply in these countries as well on these areas that is one of the
>> > > >> 9:07
>> > > >> most difficult questions to raise and to answer on the one hand I would say and
>> > > >> 9:14
>> > > >> it may sound paradoxical although I don't think it is paradoxical that these
>> > > >> 9:19
>> > > >> countries precisely because they are not yet at the advanced stage of
>> > > >> 9:26
>> > > >> industrialization where they have to buy all the negative features of this kind
>> > > >> 9:34
>> > > >> of industrialization that these countries have a better chance of
>> > > >> 9:41
>> > > >> proceeding differently that these countries have a better chance of building form Scott a failure and a more
>> > > >> 9:50
>> > > >> human society but there are other impediments here namely that the vast
>> > > >> 9:59
>> > > >> majority of these countries is too weak in resources intellectual as well as
>> > > >> 10:06
>> > > >> material to do it by themselves they are by themselves as far as I can
>> > > >> 10:13
>> > > >> see again with some exceptions incapable of accumulating the funds capital funds
>> > > >> 10:21
>> > > >> that would be necessary for development and therefore will have to rely on
>> > > >> 10:26
>> > > >> outside help which can come only from the east or from the west and I am a
>> > > >> 10:33
>> > > >> friends of less this dependence on outside health would not almost
>> > > >> 10:38
>> > > >> inevitably these countries lead along the path that present gone either by the
>> > > >> 10:47
>> > > >> east or by serviced so that the idea of a third force is still a more or less a
>> > > >> 10:53
>> > > >> utopian idea one more question on in this general area the Isaac torture in
>> > > >> 11:02
>> > > >> his book the the great contest where he dealt with with issues of the Cold War
>> > > >> 11:09
>> > > >> which were not really central to this discussion suggested that the the
>> > > >> 11:15
>> > > >> potential the ultimate potential for freedom in the organization of the in in
>> > > >> 11:21
>> > > >> this sense of the totalitarian soviet society was far greater than existed in
>> > > >> 11:26
>> > > >> any area of the West because of the of the way in which the controls were applied and were used would you agree
>> > > >> 11:33
>> > > >> with this the formulation of mr. Deutsch is I agree up to a very definite point
>> > > >> 11:38
>> > > >> if Georgia wants to say that the establishment of a plant society it does
>> > > >> 11:46
>> > > >> not have to cope with the vested interests which otherwise stand in the
>> > > >> 11:53
>> > > >> way of a utilization of all available resources for the satisfaction of vital
>> > > >> 12:00
>> > > >> needs wherever they are still not satisfied rather than proceeding through wastes
>> > > >> 12:07
>> > > >> and planned obsolescence if he wants to say that I agree entirely there
>> > > >> 12:13
>> > > >> searching a centrally planned society in which the counteracting vested interest
>> > > >> 12:19
>> > > >> are indeed eliminated would have a far greater potential to develop humanity
>> > > >> 12:26
>> > > >> let's say in short then another society but here I think we have to place the
>> > > >> 12:32
>> > > >> development of Soviet society in the actual context of peaceful or rather
>> > > >> 12:38
>> > > >> hostile coexistence which means that the Soviet Union - at present sees itself
>> > > >> 12:45
>> > > >> committed to divert a vast section of its resources of the social wealth to
>> > > >> 12:52
>> > > >> armament production and thereby has to
>> > > >> 12:57
>> > > >> impose sacrifices which otherwise would not have to be imposed I think maybe it
>> > > >> 13:07
>> > > >> something we got to explore a little bit at this point is is it to go back to this question of the territory and the
>> > > >> 13:12
>> > > >> reason I come back to it I think is because it isn't the provocative word to be used in the context of modern American life one of
>> > > >> 13:21
>> > > >> the things you talk about in this regard is the range in the nature of choice available in this society and one should
>> > > >> 13:30
>> > > >> say I suppose in the first place that it seems that there is a great range of choice to some extent we have to all choose our political candidates and our
>> > > >> 13:37
>> > > >> pretty well our political leaders from a range of candidates we choose what the particular job you want to go to what
>> > > >> 13:43
>> > > >> education education we want to go to really choose a candidate or are they not chosen for us do i and you won't
>> > > >> 13:51
>> > > >> Weber it is choose a candidate which was actually or running order somebody else does a machine or I don't know what do
>> > > >> 13:58
>> > > >> it well there is a choice at least between different candidates with different points of view mr. Barry
>> > > >> 14:03
>> > > >> Goldwater has a different orientation I believed and then our president Johnson
>> > > >> 14:10
>> > > >> yes certainly are these real choices they are real choices wherever you have
>> > > >> 14:16
>> > > >> a real difference of opinion now I'm again God you early suspicious
>> > > >> 14:23
>> > > >> of the speeches and platforms and programs made before the elections they
>> > > >> 14:31
>> > > >> are usually hardly in any relation to what happened after the election if you
>> > > >> 14:36
>> > > >> have still a real difference of opinion I would say you indeed have a choice and
>> > > >> 14:42
>> > > >> you have freedom of choice but that is precisely what I start to doubt the mere
>> > > >> 14:48
>> > > >> fact is that we have two parties does not yet by itself mean that these
>> > > >> 14:54
>> > > >> parties differ in the accenture attitudes and opinions there may well be
>> > > >> 15:02
>> > > >> differences within one and the same accepted and established framework in
>> > > >> 15:08
>> > > >> which case both parties would compete in preserving the existing framework rather
>> > > >> 15:16
>> > > >> than working for alternatives if they are any alternatives one of the
>> > > >> 15:21
>> > > >> traditional areas of dissent aside from the political arena choice have been the academies and the
>> > > >> 15:27
>> > > >> distance of an intellectual community which at times historically has seen
>> > > >> 15:32
>> > > >> things differently than the current establishment of a society do you see in
>> > > >> 15:39
>> > > >> in the academies the existence of a real dissent and a real opposition of
>> > > >> 15:44
>> > > >> alternatives by academies you mean universities colleges and so on yes well
>> > > >> 15:53
>> > > >> I would say since this is precisely the field where I do have experience that is
>> > > >> 15:59
>> > > >> perhaps today the area which is still the freest of order my long experience
>> > > >> 16:07
>> > > >> with students has shown me that these students at least when they enter the
>> > > >> 16:13
>> > > >> university are still entirely open minded that they think by themselves
>> > > >> 16:20
>> > > >> that they preserve their open mind that they are highly critical and that's a
>> > > >> 16:28
>> > > >> really talk at least if they know that they can talk that depends on the with
>> > > >> 16:34
>> > > >> whom they talk gradually however the dire need makes itself first to look for
>> > > >> 16:42
>> > > >> a job they know perfectly well that if they go on like that if they continue to
>> > > >> 16:48
>> > > >> have really dissenting opinions and not only slight differences in opinion it
>> > > >> 16:53
>> > > >> may be very difficult for them to find a job and that sooner or later they have
>> > > >> 16:59
>> > > >> to adopt modes of behavior in which at least they conceal the dissent or
>> > > >> 17:07
>> > > >> express it in such a way that it does not cause a scandal and I certainly
>> > > >> 17:13
>> > > >> don't blame them for doing it but is this really is this really sufficient to explain a lack of this and
>> > > >> 17:19
>> > > >> there have been scholars and intellectuals who have been able to take a dissenting position in terms of
>> > > >> 17:24
>> > > >> publication and one thinks of individuals like Searight Mills and and in a much different sense and in a much
>> > > >> 17:30
>> > > >> more popular sense Vance Packard how would you account for the existence of these people and how would you account
>> > > >> 17:37
>> > > >> for the fact that there are not more likely I would not I say and I don't think I did say that
>> > > >> 17:44
>> > > >> we have no dissent and what I did say and what I mean and what I would like to
>> > > >> 17:50
>> > > >> repeat is we have a considerable amount of dissent we can afford this dissent
>> > > >> 17:58
>> > > >> because it remains completely and entirely in effective we can afford to
>> > > >> 18:07
>> > > >> have C right minutes we can afford to let Vance Packard say things which
>> > > >> 18:14
>> > > >> formally would have been very meticulously considered because our
>> > > >> 18:22
>> > > >> society is so strong so cohesive so a powerful that these revelations don't do
>> > > >> 18:31
>> > > >> it any harm and in a sense that is good but in another sense and perhaps and the
>> > > >> 18:38
>> > > >> deeper sentence is very bad John YES on the question I have two questions really
>> > > >> 18:44
>> > > >> but first I'd like to ask you about the particular phenomenon of Vance Packard uh he sells in the hundreds of thousands
>> > > >> 18:54
>> > > >> of copies and is in his widely read and
>> > > >> 18:59
>> > > >> and yet seems to have no real influence in the society it's the kind of thing
>> > > >> 19:04
>> > > >> that just slips off the surface that it makes perhaps a momentary impression and
>> > > >> 19:10
>> > > >> disappears and of course in the case of see right mills professor mills wrote a
>> > > >> 19:17
>> > > >> book club listen Yankee which sold over 400,000 copies and was read as I noticed
>> > > >> 19:22
>> > > >> by Subway's by secretaries writing on the subway and yet again made no
>> > > >> 19:27
>> > > >> impression the society seems not only confident to allow dissenters to exist
>> > > >> 19:34
>> > > >> but to allow them to be fairly widely disseminated in some cases what how
>> > > >> 19:41
>> > > >> would you want to comment on the phenomenon of the lack of impression of these people in the end the processes
>> > > >> 19:47
>> > > >> and devices by with which this is accomplished yes because I believe there's another in
>> > > >> 19:53
>> > > >> rushon which overrides and we consent in the last analysis destroys as the or
>> > > >> 20:01
>> > > >> mate it makes impotent as the impressions left as these books there is name is the
>> > > >> 20:07
>> > > >> impression that that never mind after our this society functions
>> > > >> 20:13
>> > > >> beautifully and efficiently it has succeeded in vastly increasing astonied
>> > > >> 20:21
>> > > >> of living in distributing its benefits over larger section of the former
>> > > >> 20:27
>> > > >> underprivileged population we still have these large areas of poverty but nothing
>> > > >> 20:36
>> > > >> proves that these areas cannot sooner or later also be taken care off
>> > > >> 20:42
>> > > >> so what these people reveal and indict are simply byproducts of the famous
>> > > >> 20:54
>> > > >> affluent society byproducts which are present we have to cope with but which
>> > > >> 21:00
>> > > >> are not really in any way serious and dangerous the the event in the in the
>> > > >> 21:07
>> > > >> recent past that seems most to bear this out it seems to me it was the
>> > > >> 21:13
>> > > >> assassination of the president where there existed at least the opportunity
>> > > >> 21:20
>> > > >> for an act and and the consequences of
>> > > >> 21:25
>> > > >> the active to have a deep impress on the American people and yet it was as if the
>> > > >> 21:31
>> > > >> the display of that for days was like another television rugged similar to
>> > > >> 21:37
>> > > >> show exact which we had after four days it was completely incorporated into the daily business of life there was a new
>> > > >> 21:44
>> > > >> president things are going on yes I'm well what I wanted to ask you was to
>> > > >> 21:50
>> > > >> perhaps comment a little bit more on the the the specific techniques and methods
>> > > >> 21:55
>> > > >> since the the mass communications industry plays such a large role in this
>> > > >> 22:01
>> > > >> whole process would you care to comment on that
>> > > >> 22:06
>> > > >> yes but again I don't want to make the impression that I consider the only
>> > > >> 22:13
>> > > >> thing as a conspiracy once a part of the media of mass communication we have a
>> > > >> 22:20
>> > > >> conspiratorial aspect they are to only a remind you of see a set of the frame of
>> > > >> 22:27
>> > > >> self-censorship which is exercised by the press by the movie industry whatever
>> > > >> 22:33
>> > > >> it is a self-censorship far more effective and far more efficient than
>> > > >> 22:38
>> > > >> any state instituted censor that is not the point I think that these are all
>> > > >> 22:46
>> > > >> these developments have a very rational basis namely precisely let our system
>> > > >> 22:56
>> > > >> works and because it works because it is so productive because it distributes
>> > > >> 23:04
>> > > >> such benefits we repress the pious which we pay for this affluence a world which
>> > > >> 23:12
>> > > >> by the way I would only use a in quotation marks it is this repression it is the repression of the price it cost
>> > > >> 23:19
>> > > >> the sacrifices that are involved which
>> > > >> 23:25
>> > > >> is actually that what bothers me most raises a question because thus far even
>> > > >> 23:31
>> > > >> speaking about such here again I use quotation marks intangibles in quotation
>> > > >> 23:37
>> > > >> marks is the range of choice available not being truly a meaningful choice and the social sciences and the academic
>> > > >> 23:45
>> > > >> institutions while tolerating some dissent nonetheless not really participating in the development and
>> > > >> 23:51
>> > > >> movement of the society what's wrong with the society as it now stands is there a need to change the society
>> > > >> 23:57
>> > > >> I mean don't after all we have haven't we if not if we haven't achieved utopia
>> > > >> 24:03
>> > > >> aren't we getting close to reaching utopia at least in terms of the production of material goods and
>> > > >> 24:09
>> > > >> physical comfort well that question leads to Z what I consider the calls or
>> > > >> 24:15
>> > > >> who at problem rods in a rather large cause of mine as
>> > > >> 24:21
>> > > >> universities a question it was a kind of examination question I asked the
>> > > >> 24:27
>> > > >> students I want to change I want you to tell me what is wrong was a society I never got an answer
>> > > >> 24:33
>> > > >> nobody could or nobody dare to tell me what is actually wrong with a society did the students want the course and
>> > > >> 24:39
>> > > >> knows I didn't because again I completely understand why they didn't is
>> > > >> 24:44
>> > > >> I want to tell me or didn't know what is wrong with it is an T I have to become a
>> > > >> 24:52
>> > > >> little philosophical and even a little utopian for me the world utopia makes no
>> > > >> 24:59
>> > > >> sense because in my view there's nothing today which could be a reason to be
>> > > >> 25:04
>> > > >> called utopia mankind has reached a stage where if it wanted to it could actually within a
>> > > >> 25:11
>> > > >> relatively short time translate into reality even the most utopian idea so
>> > > >> 25:18
>> > > >> the term utopia again is a subterfuge
>> > > >> 25:23
>> > > >> what as long as a society is that it retains that it perpetuates the struggle
>> > > >> 25:31
>> > > >> for existence tall frustration waste
>> > > >> 25:39
>> > > >> although all the intellectual and material capabilities are there to
>> > > >> 25:47
>> > > >> pacify this table before existence in the international arena as well as
>> > > >> 25:53
>> > > >> within the nation and force a private individual and by a pacification of the
>> > > >> 26:01
>> > > >> struggle for existence I mean something I think very concrete I expressed it in
>> > > >> 26:07
>> > > >> the phrase and I think your listener will listen as we know what I'm talking
>> > > >> 26:14
>> > > >> about the abolition of alienated labor we have reached a stage where industrial
>> > > >> 26:21
>> > > >> civilization really could reduce working time to such an extent that the
>> > > >> 26:28
>> > > >> traditional proportion between working time and free timelessly worst that free time becomes
>> > > >> 26:34
>> > > >> full time and working time marginal time this would involve a complete
>> > > >> 26:42
>> > > >> transvaluation of values it would cancel
>> > > >> 26:47
>> > > >> some of the most cherished abuse of the established organization for example the
>> > > >> 26:54
>> > > >> need for earning a living instead of making life and end in itself and not a
>> > > >> 27:01
>> > > >> means to attain an end which is either never attained or only in an age where
>> > > >> 27:06
>> > > >> you cannot enjoy it anymore this I think today is the alternative and this art relative is systematically
>> > > >> 27:14
>> > > >> again not in terms of a conspiracy about objectively prevented by the way in
>> > > >> 27:23
>> > > >> which we continue as he established direction of progress well there are two
>> > > >> 27:28
>> > > >> points there and it would be fair to rephrase the first part of that to say in a kind of shorthand sense that while
>> > > >> 27:36
>> > > >> we have the possibility of living within a society of Plenty the society is still organized as if it were a society of
>> > > >> 27:43
>> > > >> scarcity no for one very simple reason
>> > > >> 27:49
>> > > >> you don't need plenty in order to have a humane society I would even go so far
>> > > >> 27:57
>> > > >> and there again you will have to protect me I would even be a good so far as to
>> > > >> 28:03
>> > > >> say that one of the crimes of our present area you are is that we have too
>> > > >> 28:10
>> > > >> much there in a situation where the vast majority of the people of the earth have
>> > > >> 28:16
>> > > >> to litter so it is not a question of Plenty well let me change to other than the comparison between enough we had the
>> > > >> 28:23
>> > > >> potential of developing a society based on enough and we're still living as a society based on scarcity that's correct
>> > > >> 28:31
>> > > >> now the second part of that the second part of what you just said can I interrupt you I'm a question of enough
>> > > >> 28:38
>> > > >> and scarcity isn't it also true that
>> > > >> 28:44
>> > > >> that the the concept of scarcity doesn't apply because the the need to waste is
>> > > >> 28:52
>> > > >> so paramount injustice society certainly the need to waste as paramount as a need
>> > > >> 28:58
>> > > >> to waste is absolutely essential because it is a need for waste which in turn
>> > > >> 29:06
>> > > >> perpetuates the need for earning a living the need for growth for doing
>> > > >> 29:12
>> > > >> work which in fact technically is already superfluous can we make you into
>> > > >> 29:19
>> > > >> a bit of a visionary and ask you to discuss what the nature of a society that where the concepts of work and
>> > > >> 29:26
>> > > >> leisure breakdown will be like or what you would expect you cannot because we
>> > > >> 29:34
>> > > >> are at present I think utterly incapable to draft anything like a blueprint for
>> > > >> 29:41
>> > > >> such a society it is so easily ridiculed
>> > > >> 29:49
>> > > >> because we always assume that the individuals si have been preconditioned
>> > > >> 29:56
>> > > >> si are now will suddenly be placed in a situation in which as they don't have to
>> > > >> 30:02
>> > > >> work for a living anymore in which they don't have to earn a living anymore in which most of their time as free time
>> > > >> 30:10
>> > > >> and it is then very easy to say and I agree that would be a catastrophe and a detail perhaps the greatest catastrophe
>> > > >> 30:17
>> > > >> of the civilization it would be complete chaos it would be a nightmare there we
>> > > >> 30:23
>> > > >> cannot and risen envision such a society because it was so radically different
>> > > >> 30:28
>> > > >> from what we have now that any such vision would really be innovative
>> > > >> 30:34
>> > > >> responsible well let me try this comment then that we have the potential of
>> > > >> 30:39
>> > > >> developing however it might be organized and set up something approaching what has traditionally been considered a
>> > > >> 30:46
>> > > >> utopian kind of existence yes now then
>> > > >> 30:51
>> > > >> you then go on in the second part of your earlier statement to say that you see the society however
>> > > >> 30:57
>> > > >> moving and with tendencies which not only are not leading toward the establishment or existence of this kind
>> > > >> 31:03
>> > > >> of society but are actually leading in the other direction and this is what I wanted to to question you on because
>> > > >> 31:09
>> > > >> hadn't had always been true that the technological abilities of society have
>> > > >> 31:14
>> > > >> been ahead of the social abilities of the society to use utilize these techniques isn't this simply a question
>> > > >> 31:22
>> > > >> of cultural lag why isn't it that we aren't in fact slowly evolving a
>> > > >> 31:28
>> > > >> framework whereby we can use these technological developments to create a healthy human society because in my view
>> > > >> 31:36
>> > > >> it is not simply a time lag or a cultural lag in any other sense the
>> > > >> 31:44
>> > > >> decisive difference here is that what is in worth is not simply a better
>> > > >> 31:51
>> > > >> utilization and a better development of the available technical resources but
>> > > >> 31:58
>> > > >> what I called a radical redirection of technical progress itself and such a
>> > > >> 32:05
>> > > >> radical redirection of technical progress namely first to the satisfaction of vital needs and to a
>> > > >> 32:12
>> > > >> pacification such a radical redirection is in my view not possible within the
>> > > >> 32:21
>> > > >> established framework but would involve a sweeping change in our institutions
>> > > >> 32:29
>> > > >> which we're still institutions adopted to scarcity and not to what we
>> > > >> 32:37
>> > > >> potentially have now why can't this change be made let me let me also quote
>> > > >> 32:44
>> > > >> at this point something from your introduction that may or may not throw a light on on what I'm getting at you said
>> > > >> 32:50
>> > > >> here that the way in which is assigned he organizes the life of its members involves an initial choice between
>> > > >> 32:57
>> > > >> historical alternatives which are determined by the inherited level of the material and intellectual culture the
>> > > >> 33:03
>> > > >> choice itself results from the play of the dominant interests it anticipates
>> > > >> 33:08
>> > > >> specific modes transforming and utilized man in nature and rejects other modes etc the word I was I was looking at
>> > > >> 33:15
>> > > >> there with the word choice if I would not believe that such a redirection is
>> > > >> 33:22
>> > > >> historically possible I wouldn't have written my book as far as it choices
>> > > >> 33:27
>> > > >> concerned there indeed I am very pessimistic because the choice would
>> > > >> 33:35
>> > > >> require among other things men who live
>> > > >> 33:41
>> > > >> in the dire need for such a change this dire need is as I pointed out today
>> > > >> 33:49
>> > > >> effectively repressed it would furthermore require that these people
>> > > >> 33:56
>> > > >> who live in need of such a change actually have the power to bring the
>> > > >> 34:01
>> > > >> change about this to at present is not the case
>> > > >> 34:07
>> > > >> does anybody map it from this society as it's currently set up yes most certainly
>> > > >> 34:12
>> > > >> I think if not the majority at least a large segment of the population benefit
>> > > >> 34:19
>> > > >> for it and that is precisely why it is so serious a wider so pain for you that
>> > > >> 34:24
>> > > >> you criticize a society but I believe that Wars at stake than these benefits
>> > > >> 34:32
>> > > >> where to use a cliche or though I hate it I seriously believe that the chances
>> > > >> 34:40
>> > > >> of a human and humane existence for all without war the are at stake and in view
>> > > >> 34:48
>> > > >> of these chances I think one has to criticize even a society which is more
>> > > >> 34:54
>> > > >> beneficial to more people perhaps and any preceding society in history but in
>> > > >> 35:01
>> > > >> a sense it also it also doesn't it although it may benefit some members more than others it also does well it
>> > > >> 35:13
>> > > >> also wraps up those who benefit to some extent and and doesn't allow for their own full full development as human
>> > > >> 35:20
>> > > >> beings and I think this is what you meant when you spoke at one point the world to become the staff of total administration which absorbs even the
>> > > >> 35:26
>> > > >> administrators yes it absorbs not only the administrators it suffocates not
>> > > >> 35:34
>> > > >> only the need for a redirection of progress but it even does a best to
>> > > >> 35:41
>> > > >> arrest as a development of concepts and modes of thoughts which could define
>> > > >> 35:49
>> > > >> good sketch alternatives of the development not only a quantitative the
>> > > >> 35:56
>> > > >> changes but qualitative changes that is why I have the critique of present a
>> > > >> 36:02
>> > > >> positivism and a criticism which I consider a pseudoaneurysm a false and
>> > > >> 36:10
>> > > >> premise ism because it Orient's itself on a restricted and manipulated
>> > > >> 36:16
>> > > >> experience I just want to push you in this on a second and then on John I know has a question previously it might be
>> > > >> 36:25
>> > > >> said that a society that benefitted certain groups in the society rather than others had to be maintained in the
>> > > >> 36:31
>> > > >> eyes of those who benefited because it was simply impossible technologically for the group that benefited to maintain
>> > > >> 36:38
>> > > >> its particular benefits in an equalitarian totally equalitarian system
>> > > >> 36:45
>> > > >> but now we have a society where that is no longer impossible where in fact those who benefit need not give up very much
>> > > >> 36:51
>> > > >> in order to share their benefits with the others in the society through the advent of automation cybernetics and
>> > > >> 36:58
>> > > >> these techniques also in the current situation isn't it true that those who
>> > > >> 37:04
>> > > >> benefit could benefit more in a different social situation why then isn't it possible that traditional
>> > > >> 37:12
>> > > >> leadership groups themselves could at this point under these conditions make the transition to a different kind of
>> > > >> 37:17
>> > > >> society because it would be as far as I draw the first case of their story in
>> > > >> 37:23
>> > > >> which a invested and intentionally darshan or a ruling class if you wish
>> > > >> 37:30
>> > > >> has voluntarily abdicated the chances that the
>> > > >> 37:36
>> > > >> a not benefit the way they benefit now the risk of serious disruptions and even
>> > > >> 37:45
>> > > >> of a catastrophe and Worf is such that they will understandably not be willing
>> > > >> 37:53
>> > > >> to voluntarily to institute so exchanges
>> > > >> 38:00
>> > > >> direct from in the same society I think argues that they're um are are certain
>> > > >> 38:07
>> > > >> strong reasons why those who even those involved in leadership do not benefit as greatly into society as they could from
>> > > >> 38:14
>> > > >> a different kind of society couldn't this act is a sufficient stimulation to Lana where leadership tonight a
>> > > >> 38:20
>> > > >> transition there no as far as I remember Indian spy that simply well for example
>> > > >> 38:28
>> > > >> that the rich are not happy now in the first place I never took that very
>> > > >> 38:34
>> > > >> seriously and I don't believe that the unhappiness or so it should really be a
>> > > >> 38:41
>> > > >> matter of serious concern and in the second place I don't think you can
>> > > >> 38:46
>> > > >> interpret this reluctance primarily in Psychological terms what is involved
>> > > >> 38:52
>> > > >> after all is a deed to speak perfectly frankly a fundamental change and as he
>> > > >> 38:58
>> > > >> established political and economic institutions has already indicated for
>> > > >> 39:04
>> > > >> example a plant economy really plant economy with priority set on the
>> > > >> 39:10
>> > > >> satisfaction of needs is not compatible
>> > > >> 39:15
>> > > >> with the present private control of the economy with these individual one final
>> > > >> 39:22
>> > > >> question on this point with these with this leadership be giving up much more than simply a question of status and
>> > > >> 39:28
>> > > >> leadership would they be giving up any material conditions of livelihood again
>> > > >> 39:36
>> > > >> looking back at history it is at least possible or probable that they would
>> > > >> 39:45
>> > > >> indeed have to give up much of what they have now that others would move in we want to do
>> > > >> 39:52
>> > > >> it in a different way that I would indeed say John yes you describe an a
>> > > >> 40:00
>> > > >> contradiction or an antagonism between the need for change and I assume this is
>> > > >> 40:07
>> > > >> a kind of objective need that exists without the wishes or rub or feelings of
>> > > >> 40:13
>> > > >> of anyone and the repression of the expression of the need for this change
>> > > >> 40:18
>> > > >> now do you foresee in any in any sense
>> > > >> 40:25
>> > > >> perhaps even in the classical Marcion sense a breakdown based on this kind of
>> > > >> 40:30
>> > > >> contradiction in the system that will force some kind of change perhaps not
>> > > >> 40:35
>> > > >> the one that we want or the one that you foresee the possibilities of such a
>> > > >> 40:42
>> > > >> breakdown are such that I think that
>> > > >> 40:48
>> > > >> yields a most rabid Marxist would wish them for example I could imagine that a
>> > > >> 40:55
>> > > >> nuclear war or even a short of in declare war a large-scale international
>> > > >> 41:02
>> > > >> war would release the forces that may
>> > > >> 41:08
>> > > >> make for such a redirection of progress but who's insane enough to wish that you
>> > > >> 41:16
>> > > >> don't see it see such a breakdown stemming from less cataclysmic factors
>> > > >> 41:24
>> > > >> like stagnation within the economy or some kind of breakdown in the in the
>> > > >> 41:29
>> > > >> arrangement and organization of our social and sexual mores for example
>> > > >> 41:35
>> > > >> there's a group in among writers for example Norman Mailer
>> > > >> 41:42
>> > > >> in particular who talks about the sexual revolution these factors have any
>> > > >> 41:49
>> > > >> significance to your way of thinking could we expand sexual other kind of a whole moral Christ yes well that's what
>> > > >> 41:54
>> > > >> I think there is more lovely disasters and almost cubital applications of the
>> > > >> 42:02
>> > > >> term evolution we have in our evolution of the coca-cola company brings out the bottle it is a revolution and bottling
>> > > >> 42:09
>> > > >> we have a revolution in the order and whoever a loom evolution and everything only we don't have a revolution rather
>> > > >> 42:17
>> > > >> the only field in which the term revolution makes any sense I don't see a sexual revolution at all
>> > > >> 42:23
>> > > >> on the contrary as I try to point out in my book I see a very nice very welcome
>> > > >> 42:30
>> > > >> and very as pleasurable and pleasant adaptation of sexual mores to the
>> > > >> 42:37
>> > > >> requirements of the affluent society which simply cannot do any more with a
>> > > >> 42:43
>> > > >> Victorian morality that has nothing to do with an evolution took to follow up
>> > > >> 42:50
>> > > >> on that the this very pleasant
>> > > >> 42:58
>> > > >> development than our sexual and social mores that you talk about seems to
>> > > >> 43:04
>> > > >> develop somewhat in opposition to the to the non terroristic totalitarian izing
>> > > >> 43:12
>> > > >> of a society yes well no I doubt even let doubt even let because the more
>> > > >> 43:19
>> > > >> sexual freedom people have within the established within the establishment and
>> > > >> 43:28
>> > > >> without being punished by the establishment the easier they are to
>> > > >> 43:33
>> > > >> guide the easier they are to manipulate now please don't misunderstand me I will
>> > > >> 43:38
>> > > >> be the last to condemn this liberation and sexual morality let me ask you a
>> > > >> 43:45
>> > > >> question historically uh maybe you can answer you don't want to or can't answer this but and this I thought of this one John
>> > > >> 43:53
>> > > >> brought up the question of the web llama use of a revolution that changes in our
>> > > >> 43:58
>> > > >> sexual mores in addition we find certain tendencies taking place in art and
>> > > >> 44:04
>> > > >> literature and also in the use of drugs which seem possibly to be interrelated
>> > > >> 44:09
>> > > >> here there's been a great deal of talk about another revolution the the drug
>> > > >> 44:15
>> > > >> revolution the use of consciousness expanding drugs were with mr. Timothy
>> > > >> 44:20
>> > > >> Leary and if if International Federation for internal freedom and similarly
>> > > >> 44:26
>> > > >> artists in perhaps analogous Y and in Abstract Expressionism in tendencies
>> > > >> 44:32
>> > > >> like this have have developed an art form which becomes at least to me so solipsistic that it almost ceases to
>> > > >> 44:38
>> > > >> have any relevance other than for oneself are there historical parallels
>> > > >> 44:43
>> > > >> and these kinds of developments and other social tendencies and developments and when one here is a great deal I I
>> > > >> 44:50
>> > > >> was thinking of the decline of the Roman Empire for example as being a time of libertine ism and a concern with extreme
>> > > >> 45:01
>> > > >> individuality the period following the French Revolution yes rather period following the French Revolution the
>> > > >> 45:08
>> > > >> period of Sydney liked was slightly different because there did you at a considerable degree of genuine freedom
>> > > >> 45:16
>> > > >> in these things provided you belong to deter a nest away the others didn't have it and never did have it as far as it
>> > > >> 45:24
>> > > >> dogs are concerned this is very close to my heart because again unfortunately in the universities you know we are very
>> > > >> 45:32
>> > > >> much concerned with it in this respect I'm a terrible reactionary as in many
>> > > >> 45:38
>> > > >> other aspects I think that Doc's are reprehensible and that the only case in
>> > > >> 45:45
>> > > >> which they are to be welcomed is in case of pain of insufferable physical pain in
>> > > >> 45:53
>> > > >> all other cases they cannot possibly do what these people pretend as they do
>> > > >> 46:01
>> > > >> especially not an art literature development of consciousness or these if
>> > > >> 46:07
>> > > >> any singer acts of human freedom and if they are not the development at
>> > > >> 46:13
>> > > >> attainment of human freedom they will invariably a compressor opposite over
>> > > >> 46:18
>> > > >> they are supposed to be air to accomplish namely some kind of illusionary a happiness illusory
>> > > >> 46:25
>> > > >> contentment illusory experience which again may very well become a vehicle of
>> > > >> 46:31
>> > > >> adjustment rather than the opposite but isn't the ability in a certain sense to to take drugs which can expand your
>> > > >> 46:38
>> > > >> personal individual consciousness to their greatest extent if in fact this is what they do or to work in art forms
>> > > >> 46:45
>> > > >> which which expands one one's own feelings and emotions to the utmost
>> > > >> 46:50
>> > > >> isn't this really a kind of liberation and freedom which is unparalleled in
>> > > >> 46:56
>> > > >> history well maybe it is a revelation form things for which you shouldn't be liberated because they are precisely the
>> > > >> 47:03
>> > > >> very essence of the present state of affairs and if you liberate yourself artificially form it what you actually
>> > > >> 47:10
>> > > >> do is not develop your consciousness but arrest your consciousness in other words
>> > > >> 47:15
>> > > >> this isn't so much a freedom to as a freedom from exactly you talk to the
>> > > >> 47:21
>> > > >> misuse of the term revolution would you apply the the same approbation to the
>> > > >> 47:30
>> > > >> use of the term in in the context of the civil rights movement the Negro
>> > > >> 47:35
>> > > >> revolution as well do you see this in other words as a as a sign as a factor
>> > > >> 47:45
>> > > >> for change in the Society of a significant sword feet before you mention that I let me just point out but
>> > > >> 47:51
>> > > >> I think what possibly were working toward is some is is to see whether or not there are areas in which or forces
>> > > >> 47:58
>> > > >> within the society which offer an opportunity for social change of some kind am I wrong John no yeah that's
>> > > >> 48:03
>> > > >> right yes it is certainly this movement certainly is a movement towards social
>> > > >> 48:10
>> > > >> change I would not call it a revolution because
>> > > >> 48:15
>> > > >> I personally cannot understand how you can call a revolution a movement which
>> > > >> 48:23
>> > > >> tries to implement the principles of the Declaration of Independence I mean as a
>> > > >> 48:30
>> > > >> mere fact that we have to have such a movement today almost 200 years after
>> > > >> 48:37
>> > > >> the Declaration of Independence I think characterizes our society sufficiently
>> > > >> 48:43
>> > > >> it is not a revolution it will see a effort to finally to translate into
>> > > >> 48:52
>> > > >> reality and what was promised a centuries ago the promise was which
>> > > >> 48:58
>> > > >> actually modern society began and which is still not translated into reality
>> > > >> 49:04
>> > > >> see right mills dealt with two other groups within the society namely the
>> > > >> 49:09
>> > > >> labor movement and the intellectuals would you apply the same criticism to
>> > > >> 49:15
>> > > >> both of these groups you want to deal with them in turn I did not apply any criticism as far as I remember to the
>> > > >> 49:22
>> > > >> civil rights movement into the Negro movement as far as far as a lady I
>> > > >> 49:27
>> > > >> didn't mean criticism had sense but an estimate of every yes as far as labor
>> > > >> 49:34
>> > > >> movement is concerned or I can say is that at present organized labor in the
>> > > >> 49:41
>> > > >> United States and not only in the United States has nothing to do anymore of this
>> > > >> 49:46
>> > > >> and what Marx wants court as a polity reott and the develop a consciousness
>> > > >> 49:54
>> > > >> and see revolutionary potential off as apologia
>> > > >> 49:59
>> > > >> organized labor has today become one of the countervailing powers their
>> > > >> 50:05
>> > > >> cooperating wizards counter countervailing power in the strengthening and improvement of the
>> > > >> 50:12
>> > > >> powers that be again I certainly do not
>> > > >> 50:18
>> > > >> say that in any way as a kind of accusation or indictment only in order
>> > > >> 50:23
>> > > >> to characterize as the difference between the present state of affairs and the julep to 19th
>> > > >> 50:31
>> > > >> century and in this country the turkeys would a class analysis of the society
>> > > >> 50:39
>> > > >> still have any meaning given the the widespread affluence and the repression
>> > > >> 50:46
>> > > >> of any significant consciousness of problems within the society I can't help
>> > > >> 50:54
>> > > >> it but I do believe that we still have a class Society a class Society is not
>> > > >> 51:00
>> > > >> characterized by the increasing higher standard of living of the wid classes
>> > > >> 51:06
>> > > >> what is characterized today most outspokenly characterized by the fact
>> > > >> 51:13
>> > > >> that we have one group or class which by
>> > > >> 51:19
>> > > >> virtue of its position in the social and economic process decides and determines
>> > > >> 51:27
>> > > >> the fate of the entire population and that the majority of the population
>> > > >> 51:33
>> > > >> again by virtue of they are positioned in the social and economic process is
>> > > >> 51:41
>> > > >> really not in any way self determinating
>> > > >> 51:46
>> > > >> in speaking of classes let me only first bring up something else when you speak of of social change and how it takes
>> > > >> 51:52
>> > > >> place and I'll quote here you say first which we've already said the choice is
>> > > >> 51:58
>> > > >> primarily but only primarily the privilege of those groups which have attained control over the productive
>> > > >> 52:03
>> > > >> processes their control projects the way of life for the whole and the ensuing and enslaving necessity is the result of
>> > > >> 52:10
>> > > >> their freedom then you say and the possible abolition of this necessity pens on a new ingression of freedom not
>> > > >> 52:16
>> > > >> any freedom but that of men who comprehend the given necessity as insufferable pain and as unnecessary so
>> > > >> 52:23
>> > > >> that here you set up with your criteria of social change a group which is I
>> > > >> 52:29
>> > > >> would say from this almost totally excluded from benefit to the society and you make this clear as you said earlier
>> > > >> 52:35
>> > > >> in terms of labor movement and you also make it clear when you speak of of the people in general and their ability to
>> > > >> 52:41
>> > > >> change the situation where you argue that in the redistribution of wealth and
>> > > >> 52:47
>> > > >> equalization of classes there is simply a new stratification characteristic of advanced industrial society and not any
>> > > >> 52:53
>> > > >> basic chance to change that method of stratification and ratification but then
>> > > >> 53:00
>> > > >> you close your book and this is only the last half page out of 257 it's true when
>> > > >> 53:06
>> > > >> you say however underneath the conservative popular base is the substratum of the outcasts and Outsiders
>> > > >> 53:13
>> > > >> the exploited and persecuted of other races and colors the unemployed and unemployable they exist outside the
>> > > >> 53:19
>> > > >> democratic process they're their life
>> > > >> 53:26
>> > > >> their life is the most immediate in the most real need for ending intolerable conditions and institutions thus their
>> > > >> 53:32
>> > > >> opposition is revolutionary even if their consciousness is not the fact that they start refusing to play the game
>> > > >> 53:38
>> > > >> maybe the fact which marks the beginning of the end of the period now is the fact
>> > > >> 53:44
>> > > >> that you spend only a half-page in this in any a sense characteristic of your evaluation of the possibility of this
>> > > >> 53:49
>> > > >> tendency only partly characteristic the other part is that as I say only the
>> > > >> 53:56
>> > > >> beginnings that may mark easy beginnings these group still are too powerless to
>> > > >> 54:04
>> > > >> accomplish a change by themselves what I would like to add here that if I speak
>> > > >> 54:11
>> > > >> of the ingestion of a new freedom motivated by the awareness of
>> > > >> 54:18
>> > > >> intolerable the conditions that does not necessarily and exclusively me and
>> > > >> 54:24
>> > > >> abject poverty and misery I for example
>> > > >> 54:29
>> > > >> can very well envisage conditions under which the social groups which are not
>> > > >> 54:37
>> > > >> prefer which are not a little in a live which do not live in misery become aware
>> > > >> 54:42
>> > > >> of the insanity of a society in which
>> > > >> 54:47
>> > > >> they have to continue in which their to continue alienated
>> > > >> 54:52
>> > > >> labor continual performances which they actually hate continue the struggle for
>> > > >> 55:01
>> > > >> existence which has become more and more a trace in the face of as impossible
>> > > >> 55:09
>> > > >> abolition of loyalties and that this awareness may well spread and become one
>> > > >> 55:15
>> > > >> of those potentially changing forces there currently are a number of programs
>> > > >> 55:20
>> > > >> taking place throughout the country and of course the one that have gotten the most press recently of the Appalachians for Appalachia but also here in New York
>> > > >> 55:28
>> > > >> City and elsewhere in Oakland California there have been a number of programs in which an enormous amount of money is
>> > > >> 55:34
>> > > >> being spent in extremely small locations and an attempt to take this particular group of the population and somehow
>> > > >> 55:40
>> > > >> integrate them into the society and I'm thinking of a project like the one going on in Harlem which is going to in which
>> > > >> 55:46
>> > > >> eighty million dollars is going to be invested or one on the Lower East Side which I believe has been allocated 120
>> > > >> 55:51
>> > > >> million dollars and as I understand it much of this money has come from extremely sophisticated extremely
>> > > >> 55:57
>> > > >> sophisticated area of the leadership of the nation do you think that these kinds
>> > > >> 56:02
>> > > >> of programs or any kind of program will be able to reduce the number of those who are unemployed and unemployable in
>> > > >> 56:09
>> > > >> other words which way do you see this tendency going do you see this this potentially revolutionary group increasing report or decreasing that is
>> > > >> 56:19
>> > > >> very hard to say because it depends entirely on the national and
>> > > >> 56:24
>> > > >> international situation as to the project you mentioned naturally any and
>> > > >> 56:30
>> > > >> every project that produces even in a small area misery and poverty and dirt
>> > > >> 56:38
>> > > >> is good and should be supported but
>> > > >> 56:43
>> > > >> without illusions that they do not have the key for the decisive change and it
>> > > >> 56:51
>> > > >> seems to be a clear because this is not a local Messiah but a fire that not only
>> > > >> 56:58
>> > > >> concerns the nation as a whole about a soup national core to John normal well let me
>> > > >> 57:06
>> > > >> ask one final question what do you see and I think in a sense you've answered this what do you see the role of of
>> > > >> 57:12
>> > > >> scholars and intellectuals to be given this particular state of society where
>> > > >> 57:19
>> > > >> there doesn't seem to be at least if your analysis is correct much concrete action that can be done at this point
>> > > >> 57:26
>> > > >> and indeed I'd say your analysis is a rather pessimistic one yes it is a
>> > > >> 57:31
>> > > >> pessimistic one and precisely in this situation as the intellectual the scholar perhaps has a more responsible
>> > > >> 57:40
>> > > >> or than he ever had before because it is his task today against all a apparent or
>> > > >> 57:49
>> > > >> real success to preserve or rather to
>> > > >> 57:56
>> > > >> develop those concepts those ideas those
>> > > >> 58:01
>> > > >> aspirations which do not succumb to the oil or the seeming benefits of any
>> > > >> 58:10
>> > > >> presence aasaiya t but which concepts and modes of thought which remain loyal
>> > > >> 58:17
>> > > >> to the essentially o it hopes and aspirations of mankind for a society in
>> > > >> 58:25
>> > > >> which as a struggle for existence as a deed pacified this is today and more
>> > > >> 58:31
>> > > >> than ever before a real possibility and the entire power and the entire wealth
>> > > >> 58:37
>> > > >> of our society is at present directed against this possibility precisely
>> > > >> 58:44
>> > > >> because it is over here so in this situation discolor and the intellectual has one of the most decisive tasks thank
>> > > >> 58:53
>> > > >> you very much we've been talking to dr. Herbert mark who's a professor of philosophy at Brandeis University and
>> > > >> 58:58
>> > > >> author of a recent for one-dimensional man published by beacon press and John Fannin an editor of a New York
>> > > >> 59:05
>> > > >> publishing house
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >> *****************************************
>> > >> thanks GZ
>
>>>> Hello Jordy, interesting selection.
>
>> > Shalom Will, thank you
>> Hello again, my friend.
>>

> bonjour, Will

Good afternoon, Jordy, great to see you again.

🙂