On Saturday, February 4, 2023 at 10:17:04 AM UTC-5, Jordy C wrote:
> On Saturday, February 4, 2023 at 7:55:15 AM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > Jordy C wrote:
> >
> > > On Wednesday, February 1, 2023 at 4:41:34 PM UTC-5, Zod wrote:
> > >> Jordy C. wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gyL5ie6-x0
> > >>
> > >> Quite of ionterest, I am reading the transcript as of now...
> > >>
> > >> **********************************
> > >>
> > >> Transcript
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> 0:00
> > >> sitting with me as dr. Herbert minutiae a professor of politics and philosophy at Brandeis University and the author of
> > >> 0:07
> > >> the recent book entitled one-dimensional man published by beacon press and also John Simon who's an editor of New York
> > >> 0:13
> > >> publishing house and we're going to be discussing dr. marcoh whose book one-dimensional man and this is a book
> > >> 0:20
> > >> as I understand it which is about the United States and its general thesis is
> > >> 0:25
> > >> that in certain significant ways we have reached situation or are reaching a
> > >> 0:30
> > >> situation with it which is extremely close to a totalitarian society and I
> > >> 0:37
> > >> think we'll begin by discussing what precisely we mean by this and I want to quote from dr. Marcus's book you're
> > >> 0:44
> > >> right by virtue of the way in his organized his technological base contemporary industrial society tends to
> > >> 0:51
> > >> be totalitarian for totalitarian is not only a terroristic political coordination of society but also a non
> > >> 0:58
> > >> terroristic economic technical coordination which operates through the manipulation of needs by vested
> > >> 1:05
> > >> interests it does precludes the emergence of an effective opposition against the whole not only the specific
> > >> 1:12
> > >> form of government or party rule makes for totalitarianism but also a specific
> > >> 1:17
> > >> system of production and distribution which may well be compatible with a pluralism of parties newspapers
> > >> 1:23
> > >> countervailing powers etc and I wonder if you'd begin by telling us precisely
> > >> 1:28
> > >> what you mean in this sense by totalitarian yes may I begin by a
> > >> 1:34
> > >> qualifying a little what you said I wish only my book total of dear we see a
> > >> 1:39
> > >> United States a deal esse quotation shows with certain tendencies not more
> > >> 1:47
> > >> certain tendencies which I think are observable in the most advanced areas of
> > >> 1:55
> > >> industrial civilization the most advanced area of industrial civilization
> > >> 2:01
> > >> of course is the United States today but even in the United States the tendencies
> > >> 2:07
> > >> to which I point are prevailing if they
> > >> 2:12
> > >> are prevailing at or not simply beginning to show themselves only in certain advanced
> > >> 2:20
> > >> areas meaning as is very known that are still vast regions of under development
> > >> 2:26
> > >> of poverty even in the United States now by a totalitarian I used the term fully
> > >> 2:34
> > >> aware that this might violate certain taboos we are used to apply the term
> > >> 2:42
> > >> totalitarian only to well first the fascist and Nazi society then the
> > >> 2:49
> > >> communist society that is to say we are used to apply the term totalitarian to
> > >> 2:55
> > >> societies under more or less terroristic dictatorship with a one-party system
> > >> 3:02
> > >> with the more or less terroristic elimination of all opposition I believe
> > >> 3:10
> > >> that such a confined restricted use of the term totalitarian is itself
> > >> 3:16
> > >> ideological because it may serve to cover up the fact at least in my opinion
> > >> 3:23
> > >> a fact where totalitarian tendencies are beginning to show even in societies
> > >> 3:31
> > >> which are still democratic which preserves in democratic poses and institutions which have several parties
> > >> 3:39
> > >> which may even have countervailing forces by totalitarian I mean the
> > >> 3:49
> > >> constellation of situation enrich the private as well as public existence of
> > >> 3:57
> > >> man of the individual is controlled is
> > >> 4:04
> > >> exposed to standardised required ways of
> > >> 4:11
> > >> behavior standardized imposed values standardized imposed needs this can be
> > >> 4:19
> > >> done by a private as well as by a public you're cutting it can be done why are
> > >> 4:25
> > >> the correctly Democratic Media of mass communication and so on it is in a way a
> > >> 4:33
> > >> consequence as a quote source of technical formulas which implies mass
> > >> 4:40
> > >> production and mass distribution mass production and mass distribution in turn
> > >> 4:46
> > >> require a considerable degree of standardization a considerable degree of
> > >> 4:52
> > >> submission of the individual to pre given and superimposed values ideas
> > >> 5:01
> > >> aspirations goers and so on is this a necessary condition of this particular productive capacity and system
> > >> 5:09
> > >> well the tale of necessary apply to history is a very question of the term
> > >> 5:16
> > >> we can see in a strict sense if you mean it in the sense of a physical law nothing is necessarily an estimate I do
> > >> 5:24
> > >> think it is the by-product at present inevitable byproduct of the way in which
> > >> 5:32
> > >> technical progress actually has taken place in industrial society and this and
> > >> 5:40
> > >> and this this argument applies as well to societies that are organized and I more or less individualistic basis as
> > >> 5:47
> > >> well as those that are collectivistic aliy organized that is the same critique
> > >> 5:52
> > >> applies as well to the soviet union or to the countries in the Soviet bloc as it does to the United States you would
> > >> 5:58
> > >> you would argue that I would say it applies in the sense that similar tendencies oh I think observable there
> > >> 6:06
> > >> of course was vast differences based on the entirely different foundation and
> > >> 6:12
> > >> organization of the entire economy but in as much as the Soviet Union will very
> > >> 6:19
> > >> soon join the most advanced areas of industrial civilization I think the two
> > >> 6:25
> > >> systems will become more or less assimilated I think I think we want to make clear at this point because you do
> > >> 6:31
> > >> make it clear in your book that you do see differences between the Soviet Union and the United States differences
> > >> 6:37
> > >> and maybe you are a ground away where the obvious difference is that the
> > >> 6:42
> > >> society as I just mentioned is organized on an essentially different basis the
> > >> 6:49
> > >> collective ownership and control of the means of production regardless of whether or not you consider it as
> > >> 6:55
> > >> already socialist or not socialist at all is a sufficiently different form a
> > >> 7:02
> > >> society organized on the basis of private control and ownership of the means of production to make for decisive
> > >> 7:10
> > >> differences in the tendencies of development there is also if there is there not a difference in the legal
> > >> 7:17
> > >> basis of control by the state or is there nobody mid by legal basis well we
> > >> 7:24
> > >> are to some extent individuals and their own participation and their own ability to dissent are protected more in the
> > >> 7:33
> > >> American system than in the Soviet system they are certainly more protected
> > >> 7:39
> > >> they are even institutionalized as the American system they are not institutionalized in the Soviet system
> > >> 7:45
> > >> but precisely here I have my way I have a great fear that this
> > >> 7:52
> > >> institutionalization of civil rights and especially the right and Liberty to dissent is gradually eroded is reduced
> > >> 8:01
> > >> not much at all not by a conspiracy but simply by the
> > >> 8:06
> > >> mechanisms of technical goals within the
> > >> 8:13
> > >> framework of the established institutions which are before we get
> > >> 8:19
> > >> into a discussion of that particular area since we're attempting to define
> > >> 8:25
> > >> your use of totalitarian which I take it is quite different than say call Friedreich's use of the word oh yes I
> > >> 8:32
> > >> wanted to ask about the about the the
> > >> 8:37
> > >> applicability of the concept to the non advanced sectors of the world where
> > >> 8:44
> > >> particularly those countries that are now labeled socialist and are going into four extents planning and and use of many of the
> > >> 8:52
> > >> kinds of controls that you suggest exist in advanced industrial society Ghana Cuba Algeria for example the definition
> > >> 9:01
> > >> begin to apply in these countries as well on these areas that is one of the
> > >> 9:07
> > >> most difficult questions to raise and to answer on the one hand I would say and
> > >> 9:14
> > >> it may sound paradoxical although I don't think it is paradoxical that these
> > >> 9:19
> > >> countries precisely because they are not yet at the advanced stage of
> > >> 9:26
> > >> industrialization where they have to buy all the negative features of this kind
> > >> 9:34
> > >> of industrialization that these countries have a better chance of
> > >> 9:41
> > >> proceeding differently that these countries have a better chance of building form Scott a failure and a more
> > >> 9:50
> > >> human society but there are other impediments here namely that the vast
> > >> 9:59
> > >> majority of these countries is too weak in resources intellectual as well as
> > >> 10:06
> > >> material to do it by themselves they are by themselves as far as I can
> > >> 10:13
> > >> see again with some exceptions incapable of accumulating the funds capital funds
> > >> 10:21
> > >> that would be necessary for development and therefore will have to rely on
> > >> 10:26
> > >> outside help which can come only from the east or from the west and I am a
> > >> 10:33
> > >> friends of less this dependence on outside health would not almost
> > >> 10:38
> > >> inevitably these countries lead along the path that present gone either by the
> > >> 10:47
> > >> east or by serviced so that the idea of a third force is still a more or less a
> > >> 10:53
> > >> utopian idea one more question on in this general area the Isaac torture in
> > >> 11:02
> > >> his book the the great contest where he dealt with with issues of the Cold War
> > >> 11:09
> > >> which were not really central to this discussion suggested that the the
> > >> 11:15
> > >> potential the ultimate potential for freedom in the organization of the in in
> > >> 11:21
> > >> this sense of the totalitarian soviet society was far greater than existed in
> > >> 11:26
> > >> any area of the West because of the of the way in which the controls were applied and were used would you agree
> > >> 11:33
> > >> with this the formulation of mr. Deutsch is I agree up to a very definite point
> > >> 11:38
> > >> if Georgia wants to say that the establishment of a plant society it does
> > >> 11:46
> > >> not have to cope with the vested interests which otherwise stand in the
> > >> 11:53
> > >> way of a utilization of all available resources for the satisfaction of vital
> > >> 12:00
> > >> needs wherever they are still not satisfied rather than proceeding through wastes
> > >> 12:07
> > >> and planned obsolescence if he wants to say that I agree entirely there
> > >> 12:13
> > >> searching a centrally planned society in which the counteracting vested interest
> > >> 12:19
> > >> are indeed eliminated would have a far greater potential to develop humanity
> > >> 12:26
> > >> let's say in short then another society but here I think we have to place the
> > >> 12:32
> > >> development of Soviet society in the actual context of peaceful or rather
> > >> 12:38
> > >> hostile coexistence which means that the Soviet Union - at present sees itself
> > >> 12:45
> > >> committed to divert a vast section of its resources of the social wealth to
> > >> 12:52
> > >> armament production and thereby has to
> > >> 12:57
> > >> impose sacrifices which otherwise would not have to be imposed I think maybe it
> > >> 13:07
> > >> something we got to explore a little bit at this point is is it to go back to this question of the territory and the
> > >> 13:12
> > >> reason I come back to it I think is because it isn't the provocative word to be used in the context of modern American life one of
> > >> 13:21
> > >> the things you talk about in this regard is the range in the nature of choice available in this society and one should
> > >> 13:30
> > >> say I suppose in the first place that it seems that there is a great range of choice to some extent we have to all choose our political candidates and our
> > >> 13:37
> > >> pretty well our political leaders from a range of candidates we choose what the particular job you want to go to what
> > >> 13:43
> > >> education education we want to go to really choose a candidate or are they not chosen for us do i and you won't
> > >> 13:51
> > >> Weber it is choose a candidate which was actually or running order somebody else does a machine or I don't know what do
> > >> 13:58
> > >> it well there is a choice at least between different candidates with different points of view mr. Barry
> > >> 14:03
> > >> Goldwater has a different orientation I believed and then our president Johnson
> > >> 14:10
> > >> yes certainly are these real choices they are real choices wherever you have
> > >> 14:16
> > >> a real difference of opinion now I'm again God you early suspicious
> > >> 14:23
> > >> of the speeches and platforms and programs made before the elections they
> > >> 14:31
> > >> are usually hardly in any relation to what happened after the election if you
> > >> 14:36
> > >> have still a real difference of opinion I would say you indeed have a choice and
> > >> 14:42
> > >> you have freedom of choice but that is precisely what I start to doubt the mere
> > >> 14:48
> > >> fact is that we have two parties does not yet by itself mean that these
> > >> 14:54
> > >> parties differ in the accenture attitudes and opinions there may well be
> > >> 15:02
> > >> differences within one and the same accepted and established framework in
> > >> 15:08
> > >> which case both parties would compete in preserving the existing framework rather
> > >> 15:16
> > >> than working for alternatives if they are any alternatives one of the
> > >> 15:21
> > >> traditional areas of dissent aside from the political arena choice have been the academies and the
> > >> 15:27
> > >> distance of an intellectual community which at times historically has seen
> > >> 15:32
> > >> things differently than the current establishment of a society do you see in
> > >> 15:39
> > >> in the academies the existence of a real dissent and a real opposition of
> > >> 15:44
> > >> alternatives by academies you mean universities colleges and so on yes well
> > >> 15:53
> > >> I would say since this is precisely the field where I do have experience that is
> > >> 15:59
> > >> perhaps today the area which is still the freest of order my long experience
> > >> 16:07
> > >> with students has shown me that these students at least when they enter the
> > >> 16:13
> > >> university are still entirely open minded that they think by themselves
> > >> 16:20
> > >> that they preserve their open mind that they are highly critical and that's a
> > >> 16:28
> > >> really talk at least if they know that they can talk that depends on the with
> > >> 16:34
> > >> whom they talk gradually however the dire need makes itself first to look for
> > >> 16:42
> > >> a job they know perfectly well that if they go on like that if they continue to
> > >> 16:48
> > >> have really dissenting opinions and not only slight differences in opinion it
> > >> 16:53
> > >> may be very difficult for them to find a job and that sooner or later they have
> > >> 16:59
> > >> to adopt modes of behavior in which at least they conceal the dissent or
> > >> 17:07
> > >> express it in such a way that it does not cause a scandal and I certainly
> > >> 17:13
> > >> don't blame them for doing it but is this really is this really sufficient to explain a lack of this and
> > >> 17:19
> > >> there have been scholars and intellectuals who have been able to take a dissenting position in terms of
> > >> 17:24
> > >> publication and one thinks of individuals like Searight Mills and and in a much different sense and in a much
> > >> 17:30
> > >> more popular sense Vance Packard how would you account for the existence of these people and how would you account
> > >> 17:37
> > >> for the fact that there are not more likely I would not I say and I don't think I did say that
> > >> 17:44
> > >> we have no dissent and what I did say and what I mean and what I would like to
> > >> 17:50
> > >> repeat is we have a considerable amount of dissent we can afford this dissent
> > >> 17:58
> > >> because it remains completely and entirely in effective we can afford to
> > >> 18:07
> > >> have C right minutes we can afford to let Vance Packard say things which
> > >> 18:14
> > >> formally would have been very meticulously considered because our
> > >> 18:22
> > >> society is so strong so cohesive so a powerful that these revelations don't do
> > >> 18:31
> > >> it any harm and in a sense that is good but in another sense and perhaps and the
> > >> 18:38
> > >> deeper sentence is very bad John YES on the question I have two questions really
> > >> 18:44
> > >> but first I'd like to ask you about the particular phenomenon of Vance Packard uh he sells in the hundreds of thousands
> > >> 18:54
> > >> of copies and is in his widely read and
> > >> 18:59
> > >> and yet seems to have no real influence in the society it's the kind of thing
> > >> 19:04
> > >> that just slips off the surface that it makes perhaps a momentary impression and
> > >> 19:10
> > >> disappears and of course in the case of see right mills professor mills wrote a
> > >> 19:17
> > >> book club listen Yankee which sold over 400,000 copies and was read as I noticed
> > >> 19:22
> > >> by Subway's by secretaries writing on the subway and yet again made no
> > >> 19:27
> > >> impression the society seems not only confident to allow dissenters to exist
> > >> 19:34
> > >> but to allow them to be fairly widely disseminated in some cases what how
> > >> 19:41
> > >> would you want to comment on the phenomenon of the lack of impression of these people in the end the processes
> > >> 19:47
> > >> and devices by with which this is accomplished yes because I believe there's another in
> > >> 19:53
> > >> rushon which overrides and we consent in the last analysis destroys as the or
> > >> 20:01
> > >> mate it makes impotent as the impressions left as these books there is name is the
> > >> 20:07
> > >> impression that that never mind after our this society functions
> > >> 20:13
> > >> beautifully and efficiently it has succeeded in vastly increasing astonied
> > >> 20:21
> > >> of living in distributing its benefits over larger section of the former
> > >> 20:27
> > >> underprivileged population we still have these large areas of poverty but nothing
> > >> 20:36
> > >> proves that these areas cannot sooner or later also be taken care off
> > >> 20:42
> > >> so what these people reveal and indict are simply byproducts of the famous
> > >> 20:54
> > >> affluent society byproducts which are present we have to cope with but which
> > >> 21:00
> > >> are not really in any way serious and dangerous the the event in the in the
> > >> 21:07
> > >> recent past that seems most to bear this out it seems to me it was the
> > >> 21:13
> > >> assassination of the president where there existed at least the opportunity
> > >> 21:20
> > >> for an act and and the consequences of
> > >> 21:25
> > >> the active to have a deep impress on the American people and yet it was as if the
> > >> 21:31
> > >> the display of that for days was like another television rugged similar to
> > >> 21:37
> > >> show exact which we had after four days it was completely incorporated into the daily business of life there was a new
> > >> 21:44
> > >> president things are going on yes I'm well what I wanted to ask you was to
> > >> 21:50
> > >> perhaps comment a little bit more on the the the specific techniques and methods
> > >> 21:55
> > >> since the the mass communications industry plays such a large role in this
> > >> 22:01
> > >> whole process would you care to comment on that
> > >> 22:06
> > >> yes but again I don't want to make the impression that I consider the only
> > >> 22:13
> > >> thing as a conspiracy once a part of the media of mass communication we have a
> > >> 22:20
> > >> conspiratorial aspect they are to only a remind you of see a set of the frame of
> > >> 22:27
> > >> self-censorship which is exercised by the press by the movie industry whatever
> > >> 22:33
> > >> it is a self-censorship far more effective and far more efficient than
> > >> 22:38
> > >> any state instituted censor that is not the point I think that these are all
> > >> 22:46
> > >> these developments have a very rational basis namely precisely let our system
> > >> 22:56
> > >> works and because it works because it is so productive because it distributes
> > >> 23:04
> > >> such benefits we repress the pious which we pay for this affluence a world which
> > >> 23:12
> > >> by the way I would only use a in quotation marks it is this repression it is the repression of the price it cost
> > >> 23:19
> > >> the sacrifices that are involved which
> > >> 23:25
> > >> is actually that what bothers me most raises a question because thus far even
> > >> 23:31
> > >> speaking about such here again I use quotation marks intangibles in quotation
> > >> 23:37
> > >> marks is the range of choice available not being truly a meaningful choice and the social sciences and the academic
> > >> 23:45
> > >> institutions while tolerating some dissent nonetheless not really participating in the development and
> > >> 23:51
> > >> movement of the society what's wrong with the society as it now stands is there a need to change the society
> > >> 23:57
> > >> I mean don't after all we have haven't we if not if we haven't achieved utopia
> > >> 24:03
> > >> aren't we getting close to reaching utopia at least in terms of the production of material goods and
> > >> 24:09
> > >> physical comfort well that question leads to Z what I consider the calls or
> > >> 24:15
> > >> who at problem rods in a rather large cause of mine as
> > >> 24:21
> > >> universities a question it was a kind of examination question I asked the
> > >> 24:27
> > >> students I want to change I want you to tell me what is wrong was a society I never got an answer
> > >> 24:33
> > >> nobody could or nobody dare to tell me what is actually wrong with a society did the students want the course and
> > >> 24:39
> > >> knows I didn't because again I completely understand why they didn't is
> > >> 24:44
> > >> I want to tell me or didn't know what is wrong with it is an T I have to become a
> > >> 24:52
> > >> little philosophical and even a little utopian for me the world utopia makes no
> > >> 24:59
> > >> sense because in my view there's nothing today which could be a reason to be
> > >> 25:04
> > >> called utopia mankind has reached a stage where if it wanted to it could actually within a
> > >> 25:11
> > >> relatively short time translate into reality even the most utopian idea so
> > >> 25:18
> > >> the term utopia again is a subterfuge
> > >> 25:23
> > >> what as long as a society is that it retains that it perpetuates the struggle
> > >> 25:31
> > >> for existence tall frustration waste
> > >> 25:39
> > >> although all the intellectual and material capabilities are there to
> > >> 25:47
> > >> pacify this table before existence in the international arena as well as
> > >> 25:53
> > >> within the nation and force a private individual and by a pacification of the
> > >> 26:01
> > >> struggle for existence I mean something I think very concrete I expressed it in
> > >> 26:07
> > >> the phrase and I think your listener will listen as we know what I'm talking
> > >> 26:14
> > >> about the abolition of alienated labor we have reached a stage where industrial
> > >> 26:21
> > >> civilization really could reduce working time to such an extent that the
> > >> 26:28
> > >> traditional proportion between working time and free timelessly worst that free time becomes
> > >> 26:34
> > >> full time and working time marginal time this would involve a complete
> > >> 26:42
> > >> transvaluation of values it would cancel
> > >> 26:47
> > >> some of the most cherished abuse of the established organization for example the
> > >> 26:54
> > >> need for earning a living instead of making life and end in itself and not a
> > >> 27:01
> > >> means to attain an end which is either never attained or only in an age where
> > >> 27:06
> > >> you cannot enjoy it anymore this I think today is the alternative and this art relative is systematically
> > >> 27:14
> > >> again not in terms of a conspiracy about objectively prevented by the way in
> > >> 27:23
> > >> which we continue as he established direction of progress well there are two
> > >> 27:28
> > >> points there and it would be fair to rephrase the first part of that to say in a kind of shorthand sense that while
> > >> 27:36
> > >> we have the possibility of living within a society of Plenty the society is still organized as if it were a society of
> > >> 27:43
> > >> scarcity no for one very simple reason
> > >> 27:49
> > >> you don't need plenty in order to have a humane society I would even go so far
> > >> 27:57
> > >> and there again you will have to protect me I would even be a good so far as to
> > >> 28:03
> > >> say that one of the crimes of our present area you are is that we have too
> > >> 28:10
> > >> much there in a situation where the vast majority of the people of the earth have
> > >> 28:16
> > >> to litter so it is not a question of Plenty well let me change to other than the comparison between enough we had the
> > >> 28:23
> > >> potential of developing a society based on enough and we're still living as a society based on scarcity that's correct
> > >> 28:31
> > >> now the second part of that the second part of what you just said can I interrupt you I'm a question of enough
> > >> 28:38
> > >> and scarcity isn't it also true that
> > >> 28:44
> > >> that the the concept of scarcity doesn't apply because the the need to waste is
> > >> 28:52
> > >> so paramount injustice society certainly the need to waste as paramount as a need
> > >> 28:58
> > >> to waste is absolutely essential because it is a need for waste which in turn
> > >> 29:06
> > >> perpetuates the need for earning a living the need for growth for doing
> > >> 29:12
> > >> work which in fact technically is already superfluous can we make you into
> > >> 29:19
> > >> a bit of a visionary and ask you to discuss what the nature of a society that where the concepts of work and
> > >> 29:26
> > >> leisure breakdown will be like or what you would expect you cannot because we
> > >> 29:34
> > >> are at present I think utterly incapable to draft anything like a blueprint for
> > >> 29:41
> > >> such a society it is so easily ridiculed
> > >> 29:49
> > >> because we always assume that the individuals si have been preconditioned
> > >> 29:56
> > >> si are now will suddenly be placed in a situation in which as they don't have to
> > >> 30:02
> > >> work for a living anymore in which they don't have to earn a living anymore in which most of their time as free time
> > >> 30:10
> > >> and it is then very easy to say and I agree that would be a catastrophe and a detail perhaps the greatest catastrophe
> > >> 30:17
> > >> of the civilization it would be complete chaos it would be a nightmare there we
> > >> 30:23
> > >> cannot and risen envision such a society because it was so radically different
> > >> 30:28
> > >> from what we have now that any such vision would really be innovative
> > >> 30:34
> > >> responsible well let me try this comment then that we have the potential of
> > >> 30:39
> > >> developing however it might be organized and set up something approaching what has traditionally been considered a
> > >> 30:46
> > >> utopian kind of existence yes now then
> > >> 30:51
> > >> you then go on in the second part of your earlier statement to say that you see the society however
> > >> 30:57
> > >> moving and with tendencies which not only are not leading toward the establishment or existence of this kind
> > >> 31:03
> > >> of society but are actually leading in the other direction and this is what I wanted to to question you on because
> > >> 31:09
> > >> hadn't had always been true that the technological abilities of society have
> > >> 31:14
> > >> been ahead of the social abilities of the society to use utilize these techniques isn't this simply a question
> > >> 31:22
> > >> of cultural lag why isn't it that we aren't in fact slowly evolving a
> > >> 31:28
> > >> framework whereby we can use these technological developments to create a healthy human society because in my view
> > >> 31:36
> > >> it is not simply a time lag or a cultural lag in any other sense the
> > >> 31:44
> > >> decisive difference here is that what is in worth is not simply a better
> > >> 31:51
> > >> utilization and a better development of the available technical resources but
> > >> 31:58
> > >> what I called a radical redirection of technical progress itself and such a
> > >> 32:05
> > >> radical redirection of technical progress namely first to the satisfaction of vital needs and to a
> > >> 32:12
> > >> pacification such a radical redirection is in my view not possible within the
> > >> 32:21
> > >> established framework but would involve a sweeping change in our institutions
> > >> 32:29
> > >> which we're still institutions adopted to scarcity and not to what we
> > >> 32:37
> > >> potentially have now why can't this change be made let me let me also quote
> > >> 32:44
> > >> at this point something from your introduction that may or may not throw a light on on what I'm getting at you said
> > >> 32:50
> > >> here that the way in which is assigned he organizes the life of its members involves an initial choice between
> > >> 32:57
> > >> historical alternatives which are determined by the inherited level of the material and intellectual culture the
> > >> 33:03
> > >> choice itself results from the play of the dominant interests it anticipates
> > >> 33:08
> > >> specific modes transforming and utilized man in nature and rejects other modes etc the word I was I was looking at
> > >> 33:15
> > >> there with the word choice if I would not believe that such a redirection is
> > >> 33:22
> > >> historically possible I wouldn't have written my book as far as it choices
> > >> 33:27
> > >> concerned there indeed I am very pessimistic because the choice would
> > >> 33:35
> > >> require among other things men who live
> > >> 33:41
> > >> in the dire need for such a change this dire need is as I pointed out today
> > >> 33:49
> > >> effectively repressed it would furthermore require that these people
> > >> 33:56
> > >> who live in need of such a change actually have the power to bring the
> > >> 34:01
> > >> change about this to at present is not the case
> > >> 34:07
> > >> does anybody map it from this society as it's currently set up yes most certainly
> > >> 34:12
> > >> I think if not the majority at least a large segment of the population benefit
> > >> 34:19
> > >> for it and that is precisely why it is so serious a wider so pain for you that
> > >> 34:24
> > >> you criticize a society but I believe that Wars at stake than these benefits
> > >> 34:32
> > >> where to use a cliche or though I hate it I seriously believe that the chances
> > >> 34:40
> > >> of a human and humane existence for all without war the are at stake and in view
> > >> 34:48
> > >> of these chances I think one has to criticize even a society which is more
> > >> 34:54
> > >> beneficial to more people perhaps and any preceding society in history but in
> > >> 35:01
> > >> a sense it also it also doesn't it although it may benefit some members more than others it also does well it
> > >> 35:13
> > >> also wraps up those who benefit to some extent and and doesn't allow for their own full full development as human
> > >> 35:20
> > >> beings and I think this is what you meant when you spoke at one point the world to become the staff of total administration which absorbs even the
> > >> 35:26
> > >> administrators yes it absorbs not only the administrators it suffocates not
> > >> 35:34
> > >> only the need for a redirection of progress but it even does a best to
> > >> 35:41
> > >> arrest as a development of concepts and modes of thoughts which could define
> > >> 35:49
> > >> good sketch alternatives of the development not only a quantitative the
> > >> 35:56
> > >> changes but qualitative changes that is why I have the critique of present a
> > >> 36:02
> > >> positivism and a criticism which I consider a pseudoaneurysm a false and
> > >> 36:10
> > >> premise ism because it Orient's itself on a restricted and manipulated
> > >> 36:16
> > >> experience I just want to push you in this on a second and then on John I know has a question previously it might be
> > >> 36:25
> > >> said that a society that benefitted certain groups in the society rather than others had to be maintained in the
> > >> 36:31
> > >> eyes of those who benefited because it was simply impossible technologically for the group that benefited to maintain
> > >> 36:38
> > >> its particular benefits in an equalitarian totally equalitarian system
> > >> 36:45
> > >> but now we have a society where that is no longer impossible where in fact those who benefit need not give up very much
> > >> 36:51
> > >> in order to share their benefits with the others in the society through the advent of automation cybernetics and
> > >> 36:58
> > >> these techniques also in the current situation isn't it true that those who
> > >> 37:04
> > >> benefit could benefit more in a different social situation why then isn't it possible that traditional
> > >> 37:12
> > >> leadership groups themselves could at this point under these conditions make the transition to a different kind of
> > >> 37:17
> > >> society because it would be as far as I draw the first case of their story in
> > >> 37:23
> > >> which a invested and intentionally darshan or a ruling class if you wish
> > >> 37:30
> > >> has voluntarily abdicated the chances that the
> > >> 37:36
> > >> a not benefit the way they benefit now the risk of serious disruptions and even
> > >> 37:45
> > >> of a catastrophe and Worf is such that they will understandably not be willing
> > >> 37:53
> > >> to voluntarily to institute so exchanges
> > >> 38:00
> > >> direct from in the same society I think argues that they're um are are certain
> > >> 38:07
> > >> strong reasons why those who even those involved in leadership do not benefit as greatly into society as they could from
> > >> 38:14
> > >> a different kind of society couldn't this act is a sufficient stimulation to Lana where leadership tonight a
> > >> 38:20
> > >> transition there no as far as I remember Indian spy that simply well for example
> > >> 38:28
> > >> that the rich are not happy now in the first place I never took that very
> > >> 38:34
> > >> seriously and I don't believe that the unhappiness or so it should really be a
> > >> 38:41
> > >> matter of serious concern and in the second place I don't think you can
> > >> 38:46
> > >> interpret this reluctance primarily in Psychological terms what is involved
> > >> 38:52
> > >> after all is a deed to speak perfectly frankly a fundamental change and as he
> > >> 38:58
> > >> established political and economic institutions has already indicated for
> > >> 39:04
> > >> example a plant economy really plant economy with priority set on the
> > >> 39:10
> > >> satisfaction of needs is not compatible
> > >> 39:15
> > >> with the present private control of the economy with these individual one final
> > >> 39:22
> > >> question on this point with these with this leadership be giving up much more than simply a question of status and
> > >> 39:28
> > >> leadership would they be giving up any material conditions of livelihood again
> > >> 39:36
> > >> looking back at history it is at least possible or probable that they would
> > >> 39:45
> > >> indeed have to give up much of what they have now that others would move in we want to do
> > >> 39:52
> > >> it in a different way that I would indeed say John yes you describe an a
> > >> 40:00
> > >> contradiction or an antagonism between the need for change and I assume this is
> > >> 40:07
> > >> a kind of objective need that exists without the wishes or rub or feelings of
> > >> 40:13
> > >> of anyone and the repression of the expression of the need for this change
> > >> 40:18
> > >> now do you foresee in any in any sense
> > >> 40:25
> > >> perhaps even in the classical Marcion sense a breakdown based on this kind of
> > >> 40:30
> > >> contradiction in the system that will force some kind of change perhaps not
> > >> 40:35
> > >> the one that we want or the one that you foresee the possibilities of such a
> > >> 40:42
> > >> breakdown are such that I think that
> > >> 40:48
> > >> yields a most rabid Marxist would wish them for example I could imagine that a
> > >> 40:55
> > >> nuclear war or even a short of in declare war a large-scale international
> > >> 41:02
> > >> war would release the forces that may
> > >> 41:08
> > >> make for such a redirection of progress but who's insane enough to wish that you
> > >> 41:16
> > >> don't see it see such a breakdown stemming from less cataclysmic factors
> > >> 41:24
> > >> like stagnation within the economy or some kind of breakdown in the in the
> > >> 41:29
> > >> arrangement and organization of our social and sexual mores for example
> > >> 41:35
> > >> there's a group in among writers for example Norman Mailer
> > >> 41:42
> > >> in particular who talks about the sexual revolution these factors have any
> > >> 41:49
> > >> significance to your way of thinking could we expand sexual other kind of a whole moral Christ yes well that's what
> > >> 41:54
> > >> I think there is more lovely disasters and almost cubital applications of the
> > >> 42:02
> > >> term evolution we have in our evolution of the coca-cola company brings out the bottle it is a revolution and bottling
> > >> 42:09
> > >> we have a revolution in the order and whoever a loom evolution and everything only we don't have a revolution rather
> > >> 42:17
> > >> the only field in which the term revolution makes any sense I don't see a sexual revolution at all
> > >> 42:23
> > >> on the contrary as I try to point out in my book I see a very nice very welcome
> > >> 42:30
> > >> and very as pleasurable and pleasant adaptation of sexual mores to the
> > >> 42:37
> > >> requirements of the affluent society which simply cannot do any more with a
> > >> 42:43
> > >> Victorian morality that has nothing to do with an evolution took to follow up
> > >> 42:50
> > >> on that the this very pleasant
> > >> 42:58
> > >> development than our sexual and social mores that you talk about seems to
> > >> 43:04
> > >> develop somewhat in opposition to the to the non terroristic totalitarian izing
> > >> 43:12
> > >> of a society yes well no I doubt even let doubt even let because the more
> > >> 43:19
> > >> sexual freedom people have within the established within the establishment and
> > >> 43:28
> > >> without being punished by the establishment the easier they are to
> > >> 43:33
> > >> guide the easier they are to manipulate now please don't misunderstand me I will
> > >> 43:38
> > >> be the last to condemn this liberation and sexual morality let me ask you a
> > >> 43:45
> > >> question historically uh maybe you can answer you don't want to or can't answer this but and this I thought of this one John
> > >> 43:53
> > >> brought up the question of the web llama use of a revolution that changes in our
> > >> 43:58
> > >> sexual mores in addition we find certain tendencies taking place in art and
> > >> 44:04
> > >> literature and also in the use of drugs which seem possibly to be interrelated
> > >> 44:09
> > >> here there's been a great deal of talk about another revolution the the drug
> > >> 44:15
> > >> revolution the use of consciousness expanding drugs were with mr. Timothy
> > >> 44:20
> > >> Leary and if if International Federation for internal freedom and similarly
> > >> 44:26
> > >> artists in perhaps analogous Y and in Abstract Expressionism in tendencies
> > >> 44:32
> > >> like this have have developed an art form which becomes at least to me so solipsistic that it almost ceases to
> > >> 44:38
> > >> have any relevance other than for oneself are there historical parallels
> > >> 44:43
> > >> and these kinds of developments and other social tendencies and developments and when one here is a great deal I I
> > >> 44:50
> > >> was thinking of the decline of the Roman Empire for example as being a time of libertine ism and a concern with extreme
> > >> 45:01
> > >> individuality the period following the French Revolution yes rather period following the French Revolution the
> > >> 45:08
> > >> period of Sydney liked was slightly different because there did you at a considerable degree of genuine freedom
> > >> 45:16
> > >> in these things provided you belong to deter a nest away the others didn't have it and never did have it as far as it
> > >> 45:24
> > >> dogs are concerned this is very close to my heart because again unfortunately in the universities you know we are very
> > >> 45:32
> > >> much concerned with it in this respect I'm a terrible reactionary as in many
> > >> 45:38
> > >> other aspects I think that Doc's are reprehensible and that the only case in
> > >> 45:45
> > >> which they are to be welcomed is in case of pain of insufferable physical pain in
> > >> 45:53
> > >> all other cases they cannot possibly do what these people pretend as they do
> > >> 46:01
> > >> especially not an art literature development of consciousness or these if
> > >> 46:07
> > >> any singer acts of human freedom and if they are not the development at
> > >> 46:13
> > >> attainment of human freedom they will invariably a compressor opposite over
> > >> 46:18
> > >> they are supposed to be air to accomplish namely some kind of illusionary a happiness illusory
> > >> 46:25
> > >> contentment illusory experience which again may very well become a vehicle of
> > >> 46:31
> > >> adjustment rather than the opposite but isn't the ability in a certain sense to to take drugs which can expand your
> > >> 46:38
> > >> personal individual consciousness to their greatest extent if in fact this is what they do or to work in art forms
> > >> 46:45
> > >> which which expands one one's own feelings and emotions to the utmost
> > >> 46:50
> > >> isn't this really a kind of liberation and freedom which is unparalleled in
> > >> 46:56
> > >> history well maybe it is a revelation form things for which you shouldn't be liberated because they are precisely the
> > >> 47:03
> > >> very essence of the present state of affairs and if you liberate yourself artificially form it what you actually
> > >> 47:10
> > >> do is not develop your consciousness but arrest your consciousness in other words
> > >> 47:15
> > >> this isn't so much a freedom to as a freedom from exactly you talk to the
> > >> 47:21
> > >> misuse of the term revolution would you apply the the same approbation to the
> > >> 47:30
> > >> use of the term in in the context of the civil rights movement the Negro
> > >> 47:35
> > >> revolution as well do you see this in other words as a as a sign as a factor
> > >> 47:45
> > >> for change in the Society of a significant sword feet before you mention that I let me just point out but
> > >> 47:51
> > >> I think what possibly were working toward is some is is to see whether or not there are areas in which or forces
> > >> 47:58
> > >> within the society which offer an opportunity for social change of some kind am I wrong John no yeah that's
> > >> 48:03
> > >> right yes it is certainly this movement certainly is a movement towards social
> > >> 48:10
> > >> change I would not call it a revolution because
> > >> 48:15
> > >> I personally cannot understand how you can call a revolution a movement which
> > >> 48:23
> > >> tries to implement the principles of the Declaration of Independence I mean as a
> > >> 48:30
> > >> mere fact that we have to have such a movement today almost 200 years after
> > >> 48:37
> > >> the Declaration of Independence I think characterizes our society sufficiently
> > >> 48:43
> > >> it is not a revolution it will see a effort to finally to translate into
> > >> 48:52
> > >> reality and what was promised a centuries ago the promise was which
> > >> 48:58
> > >> actually modern society began and which is still not translated into reality
> > >> 49:04
> > >> see right mills dealt with two other groups within the society namely the
> > >> 49:09
> > >> labor movement and the intellectuals would you apply the same criticism to
> > >> 49:15
> > >> both of these groups you want to deal with them in turn I did not apply any criticism as far as I remember to the
> > >> 49:22
> > >> civil rights movement into the Negro movement as far as far as a lady I
> > >> 49:27
> > >> didn't mean criticism had sense but an estimate of every yes as far as labor
> > >> 49:34
> > >> movement is concerned or I can say is that at present organized labor in the
> > >> 49:41
> > >> United States and not only in the United States has nothing to do anymore of this
> > >> 49:46
> > >> and what Marx wants court as a polity reott and the develop a consciousness
> > >> 49:54
> > >> and see revolutionary potential off as apologia
> > >> 49:59
> > >> organized labor has today become one of the countervailing powers their
> > >> 50:05
> > >> cooperating wizards counter countervailing power in the strengthening and improvement of the
> > >> 50:12
> > >> powers that be again I certainly do not
> > >> 50:18
> > >> say that in any way as a kind of accusation or indictment only in order
> > >> 50:23
> > >> to characterize as the difference between the present state of affairs and the julep to 19th
> > >> 50:31
> > >> century and in this country the turkeys would a class analysis of the society
> > >> 50:39
> > >> still have any meaning given the the widespread affluence and the repression
> > >> 50:46
> > >> of any significant consciousness of problems within the society I can't help
> > >> 50:54
> > >> it but I do believe that we still have a class Society a class Society is not
> > >> 51:00
> > >> characterized by the increasing higher standard of living of the wid classes
> > >> 51:06
> > >> what is characterized today most outspokenly characterized by the fact
> > >> 51:13
> > >> that we have one group or class which by
> > >> 51:19
> > >> virtue of its position in the social and economic process decides and determines
> > >> 51:27
> > >> the fate of the entire population and that the majority of the population
> > >> 51:33
> > >> again by virtue of they are positioned in the social and economic process is
> > >> 51:41
> > >> really not in any way self determinating
> > >> 51:46
> > >> in speaking of classes let me only first bring up something else when you speak of of social change and how it takes
> > >> 51:52
> > >> place and I'll quote here you say first which we've already said the choice is
> > >> 51:58
> > >> primarily but only primarily the privilege of those groups which have attained control over the productive
> > >> 52:03
> > >> processes their control projects the way of life for the whole and the ensuing and enslaving necessity is the result of
> > >> 52:10
> > >> their freedom then you say and the possible abolition of this necessity pens on a new ingression of freedom not
> > >> 52:16
> > >> any freedom but that of men who comprehend the given necessity as insufferable pain and as unnecessary so
> > >> 52:23
> > >> that here you set up with your criteria of social change a group which is I
> > >> 52:29
> > >> would say from this almost totally excluded from benefit to the society and you make this clear as you said earlier
> > >> 52:35
> > >> in terms of labor movement and you also make it clear when you speak of of the people in general and their ability to
> > >> 52:41
> > >> change the situation where you argue that in the redistribution of wealth and
> > >> 52:47
> > >> equalization of classes there is simply a new stratification characteristic of advanced industrial society and not any
> > >> 52:53
> > >> basic chance to change that method of stratification and ratification but then
> > >> 53:00
> > >> you close your book and this is only the last half page out of 257 it's true when
> > >> 53:06
> > >> you say however underneath the conservative popular base is the substratum of the outcasts and Outsiders
> > >> 53:13
> > >> the exploited and persecuted of other races and colors the unemployed and unemployable they exist outside the
> > >> 53:19
> > >> democratic process they're their life
> > >> 53:26
> > >> their life is the most immediate in the most real need for ending intolerable conditions and institutions thus their
> > >> 53:32
> > >> opposition is revolutionary even if their consciousness is not the fact that they start refusing to play the game
> > >> 53:38
> > >> maybe the fact which marks the beginning of the end of the period now is the fact
> > >> 53:44
> > >> that you spend only a half-page in this in any a sense characteristic of your evaluation of the possibility of this
> > >> 53:49
> > >> tendency only partly characteristic the other part is that as I say only the
> > >> 53:56
> > >> beginnings that may mark easy beginnings these group still are too powerless to
> > >> 54:04
> > >> accomplish a change by themselves what I would like to add here that if I speak
> > >> 54:11
> > >> of the ingestion of a new freedom motivated by the awareness of
> > >> 54:18
> > >> intolerable the conditions that does not necessarily and exclusively me and
> > >> 54:24
> > >> abject poverty and misery I for example
> > >> 54:29
> > >> can very well envisage conditions under which the social groups which are not
> > >> 54:37
> > >> prefer which are not a little in a live which do not live in misery become aware
> > >> 54:42
> > >> of the insanity of a society in which
> > >> 54:47
> > >> they have to continue in which their to continue alienated
> > >> 54:52
> > >> labor continual performances which they actually hate continue the struggle for
> > >> 55:01
> > >> existence which has become more and more a trace in the face of as impossible
> > >> 55:09
> > >> abolition of loyalties and that this awareness may well spread and become one
> > >> 55:15
> > >> of those potentially changing forces there currently are a number of programs
> > >> 55:20
> > >> taking place throughout the country and of course the one that have gotten the most press recently of the Appalachians for Appalachia but also here in New York
> > >> 55:28
> > >> City and elsewhere in Oakland California there have been a number of programs in which an enormous amount of money is
> > >> 55:34
> > >> being spent in extremely small locations and an attempt to take this particular group of the population and somehow
> > >> 55:40
> > >> integrate them into the society and I'm thinking of a project like the one going on in Harlem which is going to in which
> > >> 55:46
> > >> eighty million dollars is going to be invested or one on the Lower East Side which I believe has been allocated 120
> > >> 55:51
> > >> million dollars and as I understand it much of this money has come from extremely sophisticated extremely
> > >> 55:57
> > >> sophisticated area of the leadership of the nation do you think that these kinds
> > >> 56:02
> > >> of programs or any kind of program will be able to reduce the number of those who are unemployed and unemployable in
> > >> 56:09
> > >> other words which way do you see this tendency going do you see this this potentially revolutionary group increasing report or decreasing that is
> > >> 56:19
> > >> very hard to say because it depends entirely on the national and
> > >> 56:24
> > >> international situation as to the project you mentioned naturally any and
> > >> 56:30
> > >> every project that produces even in a small area misery and poverty and dirt
> > >> 56:38
> > >> is good and should be supported but
> > >> 56:43
> > >> without illusions that they do not have the key for the decisive change and it
> > >> 56:51
> > >> seems to be a clear because this is not a local Messiah but a fire that not only
> > >> 56:58
> > >> concerns the nation as a whole about a soup national core to John normal well let me
> > >> 57:06
> > >> ask one final question what do you see and I think in a sense you've answered this what do you see the role of of
> > >> 57:12
> > >> scholars and intellectuals to be given this particular state of society where
> > >> 57:19
> > >> there doesn't seem to be at least if your analysis is correct much concrete action that can be done at this point
> > >> 57:26
> > >> and indeed I'd say your analysis is a rather pessimistic one yes it is a
> > >> 57:31
> > >> pessimistic one and precisely in this situation as the intellectual the scholar perhaps has a more responsible
> > >> 57:40
> > >> or than he ever had before because it is his task today against all a apparent or
> > >> 57:49
> > >> real success to preserve or rather to
> > >> 57:56
> > >> develop those concepts those ideas those
> > >> 58:01
> > >> aspirations which do not succumb to the oil or the seeming benefits of any
> > >> 58:10
> > >> presence aasaiya t but which concepts and modes of thought which remain loyal
> > >> 58:17
> > >> to the essentially o it hopes and aspirations of mankind for a society in
> > >> 58:25
> > >> which as a struggle for existence as a deed pacified this is today and more
> > >> 58:31
> > >> than ever before a real possibility and the entire power and the entire wealth
> > >> 58:37
> > >> of our society is at present directed against this possibility precisely
> > >> 58:44
> > >> because it is over here so in this situation discolor and the intellectual has one of the most decisive tasks thank
> > >> 58:53
> > >> you very much we've been talking to dr. Herbert mark who's a professor of philosophy at Brandeis University and
> > >> 58:58
> > >> author of a recent for one-dimensional man published by beacon press and John Fannin an editor of a New York
> > >> 59:05
> > >> publishing house
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> *****************************************
> > > thanks GZ
> > Good morning, Jordy, interesting selection.
> Shalom Will, thank you

Hello again Jordy, hope you're having a great weekend so far.