On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 11:28:44 PM UTC, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 5:19:52 PM UTC-4, NancyGene wrote:
> > "Roadside Poems for Summer Travelers," edited by Lucy Larcom (1876), lists the author of the poem as "Unknown." It is also called "Leaving the City" in that volume. See p.29 at: https://www.google.com/books/edition/Roadside_Poems_for_Summer_Travellers_Edi/wID1v-JwmDwC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22one+cloud+stood+overhead+the+sun+%E2%80%93+a+glorious+trail+of+dome+and+spire+%E2%80%93%22&pg=PA29&printsec=frontcover
> >
> > "Memories of the Irish Franciscans" (not "Mamories") (1871) does not contain the poem. https://books.google.com/books?id=imMNAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false
> >
> > "Chambers Journal of Popular Literature Science and Arts" (1874) calls it "July Dawning" (p. 432) and gives no author for the poem.
> > https://www.google.com/books/edition/Chamber_s_Journal_of_Popular_Literature/GonJt3HiSu8C?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22The+windmill+shook+its+slanted+arms,%22&pg=PA432&printsec=frontcover
> >
> > "Through the Year With the Poets," edited by Oscar Fay Adams (1886) (pp.. 15-16) calls the poem "July Dawning," with the author listed as "Unknown."
> > https://archive.org/details/throughyearwithp07adamiala/page/14/mode/2up
> >
> > "Poems by John Francis O'Donnell," compiled by John T. Kelly, with an introduction by Richard Dowling, was not published until 1891. Mr. O'Donnell died in 1874. The poems to be included came from a number of people, including “Mr John H. O’Donnell, son of the poet, [who] placed at Mr. Kelly’s disposal a collection of his father’s verses cut from magazines and newspapers.” (At viii in the book.)
> > https://books.google.com/books?id=UiBIAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA54&lpg=PA54&dq=A+July+Dawn,+by+John+Francis+O%27Donnell&source=bl&ots=lMGLR3_vxN&sig=ACfU3U1jCGgCQYUx2Hoa2Afr7v8Tn2k_5w&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiP-dHPv7SAAxXKl2oFHWEABCkQ6AF6BAgtEAM#v=onepage&q=A%20July%20Dawn%2C%20by%20John%20Francis%20O'Donnell&f=false
> > The poem is called "A July Dawn" in that book (pp. 54-55).
> >
> > We wonder if Mr. O'Donnell actually wrote the poem?
> You've got me wondering as well.
>
> The authorship of many uncollected 19th century poems is questionable at best, with many poems having been incorrectly attributed. One reason for this is that authors often published their poetry in newspapers, magazines, and journals anonymously, under their first name, or an initial/set of initials, and single-use aliases. "The Raven," for instance, first appeared in the "American Review" attributed only to "Quarles."
>
> Since Mr. O'Donnell's posthumous collection was put together with the help of his son, who provided newspaper clippings, it's highly probable that a mistake or two had been made.
>
> One cannot blame George "BM" Dance for this -- however, based on the number of above-cited sources that list its author as "Unknown" or unattributed, a more responsible editor would have made note of its questionable status..
On Sunday, July 30, 2023 at 8:48:50 AM UTC, George Dance wrote:
> On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 8:07:28 PM UTC-4, Michael Monkey aka "Michael Pendragon" wrote:
> > On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 7:53:16 PM UTC-4, George Dance wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 5:19:52 PM UTC-4, NancyGene wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > "Roadside Poems for Summer Travelers," edited by Lucy Larcom (1876), lists the author of the poem as "Unknown." It is also called "Leaving the City" in that volume. See p.29 at: https://www.google.com/books/edition/Roadside_Poems_for_Summer_Travellers_Edi/wID1v-JwmDwC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22one+cloud+stood+overhead+the+sun+%E2%80%93+a+glorious+trail+of+dome+and+spire+%E2%80%93%22&pg=PA29&printsec=frontcover
> > > > >
> > > > > "Memories of the Irish Franciscans" (not "Mamories") (1871) does not contain the poem. https://books.google.com/books?id=imMNAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false
>
>
> > > > >
> > > > > "Chambers Journal of Popular Literature Science and Arts" (1874) calls it "July Dawning" (p. 432) and gives no author for the poem.
> > > > > https://www.google.com/books/edition/Chamber_s_Journal_of_Popular_Literature/GonJt3HiSu8C?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22The+windmill+shook+its+slanted+arms,%22&pg=PA432&printsec=frontcover
> > > > >
> > > > > "Through the Year With the Poets," edited by Oscar Fay Adams (1886) (pp. 15-16) calls the poem "July Dawning," with the author listed as "Unknown."
> > > > > https://archive.org/details/throughyearwithp07adamiala/page/14/mode/2up
>
> > > > > "Poems by John Francis O'Donnell," compiled by John T. Kelly, with an introduction by Richard Dowling, was not published until 1891. Mr. O'Donnell died in 1874. The poems to be included came from a number of people, including “Mr John H. O’Donnell, son of the poet, [who] placed at Mr. Kelly’s disposal a collection of his father’s verses cut from magazines and newspapers.” (At viii in the book.)
> > > > > https://books.google.com/books?id=UiBIAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA54&lpg=PA54&dq=A+July+Dawn,+by+John+Francis+O%27Donnell&source=bl&ots=lMGLR3_vxN&sig=ACfU3U1jCGgCQYUx2Hoa2Afr7v8Tn2k_5w&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiP-dHPv7SAAxXKl2oFHWEABCkQ6AF6BAgtEAM#v=onepage&q=A%20July%20Dawn%2C%20by%20John%20Francis%20O'Donnell&f=false
> > > > > The poem is called "A July Dawn" in that book (pp. 54-55).
> No shit. That's the source I used for the text, and that's the name on the poem. Let's note that you found no

Did you freeze up again, George Dance? We would recommend that you go to a doctor for that, since it has happened so frequently. Stopping mid-sentence as you do may mean low Mensa levels. Note that book was published in 1891.

> > > > > We wonder if Mr. O'Donnell actually wrote the poem?
> > > >
> > > It actually took longer than I expected. But I found the reason; when they couldn't find any real or imagined "errors" in the poem, so they had to clicked over to the bio and search it until they found a couple of typos..

If there were no obvious errors, that was because you directly copied the poem from another source. However, the use of dashes in the poem varies according to the source material. In "Through the Year With the Poets," (1886), there are commas and no dashes. The 1874 printings (with no attribution), use em dashes.

We found that "Discover Poetry" has the "July Dawning" poem attributed to "Richard Watson Gilder." https://discoverpoetry.com/poems/july-poems/ We wondered why that was, but see that "July Dawning" (with no author credit) directly precedes Mr. Gilder's poem "A Midsummer Song" in "Through the Year With the Poets" (1886). https://archive.org/details/throughyearwithp07adamiala/page/n5/mode/2up (pp. 15-17).
> > >
> > > Well, this one will have to wait. It's the turn of George Wither tonight.
> > Do you want errors in your author bios, George?
> Of course not. If I find an actual error of fact (which does happen), even a typo, I'll correct it immediately. But again I'll repeat that's a deflection: you and your buffoon didn't find any "errors" in the poem, so you decided to change the subject to something else.
See above on some controversy about the poem. Note that we are not Michael's "buffoon." If you cannot carry on a civil discussion, we will have the Mounties mount you.

> > Do you want your blog to incorrectly list sources as "Mamories of the Irish Franciscans"?
> That question of yours makes no sense at all, Michael. Why would my blog list a "source" that I haven't used? Once again, that typo which NG found (and which I'd fixed before you'd even showed up in the thread) has nothing to do with the poem or its source or the blog at all.

It was on your blog site, for an unknown amount of time. It is an embarrassing and funny error. Was there an interest in the mammaries of those Franciscans? It certainly does have something to do with the poem and the blog, since it was on the blog and in the bibliography for Mr. O'Donnell. He did not study mammaries.
>
> I have to conclude that you haven't looked at any of thepoems that NastyGoon has been trolling about, but are just trying to back up your colleague as per your usual m.o.
Do you really believe that? We do not. ("the poems" are two words)

> > Why must you always repay invaluable favors with pettiness and scorn?
> Well, let's look at the "errors" you and your colleague claim to have found in this poem. Exactly one: you're now saying I got the author wrong simply because NastyGoon (who, according to you, "knows how to do a little research") did too little of it this time and came up empty-handed. So the two of you 'speculated,' and decided that O'Donnell "probably" did not write it.. You couldn't find any errors in this poem, so you made up a "probable" one.

Look at our citations, George Dance. The first two printings of the poem that survive do not have an identified author. One source on the Internet says it was written by Mr. Gilder. We do not have the clippings of newspaper articles or other papers that were gathered for the "Poems" book, so we do not know for sure who actually write it. It may have been Mr. O'Donnell or he may have appropriated it. Note that we did not write (nor did Michael) that he "probably" did not write the poem.
>
> Do you think your notion that I'd change anything on the blog or wiki because two unreliable sources made up a story like that, much less that I'd believes you'd done me an "invaluable favor" by getting me to do that, deserves anything but scorn?

Then you are a fool, George Dance. Also, "believes" should be "believe."