On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 1:34:28 PM UTC-4, George Dance wrote:
> On Sunday, July 30, 2023 at 4:44:29 PM UTC-4, NancyGene wrote:
> > On Sunday, July 30, 2023 at 8:48:50 AM UTC, George Dance wrote:
> > > On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 8:07:28 PM UTC-4, Michael Monkey aka "Michael Pendragon" wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 7:53:16 PM UTC-4, George Dance wrote:
> > > > > > On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 5:19:52 PM UTC-4, NancyGene wrote:
>
> > > > > > > "Roadside Poems for Summer Travelers," edited by Lucy Larcom (1876), lists the author of the poem as "Unknown." It is also called "Leaving the City" in that volume. See p.29 at: https://www.google.com/books/edition/Roadside_Poems_for_Summer_Travellers_Edi/wID1v-JwmDwC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22one+cloud+stood+overhead+the+sun+%E2%80%93+a+glorious+trail+of+dome+and+spire+%E2%80%93%22&pg=PA29&printsec=frontcover
> That's a source I hadn't seen, but it changes nothing. As with the Adams anthology, it looks like Larcom just found the poem in /Chambers's Journal/ and reprinted it.
> > > > > > > "Memories of the Irish Franciscans" (not "Mamories") (1871) does not contain the poem. https://books.google.com/books?id=imMNAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Chambers Journal of Popular Literature Science and Arts" (1874) calls it "July Dawning" (p. 432) and gives no author for the poem.
> > > > > > > https://www.google.com/books/edition/Chamber_s_Journal_of_Popular_Literature/GonJt3HiSu8C?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22The+windmill+shook+its+slanted+arms,%22&pg=PA432&printsec=frontcover
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Through the Year With the Poets," edited by Oscar Fay Adams (1886) (pp. 15-16) calls the poem "July Dawning," with the author listed as "Unknown."
> > > > > > > https://archive.org/details/throughyearwithp07adamiala/page/14/mode/2up
> > >
> > > > > > > "Poems by John Francis O'Donnell," compiled by John T. Kelly, with an introduction by Richard Dowling, was not published until 1891. Mr. O'Donnell died in 1874. The poems to be included came from a number of people, including “Mr John H. O’Donnell, son of the poet, [who] placed at Mr. Kelly’s disposal a collection of his father’s verses cut from magazines and newspapers.” (At viii in the book.)
> > > > > > > https://books.google.com/books?id=UiBIAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA54&lpg=PA54&dq=A+July+Dawn,+by+John+Francis+O%27Donnell&source=bl&ots=lMGLR3_vxN&sig=ACfU3U1jCGgCQYUx2Hoa2Afr7v8Tn2k_5w&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiP-dHPv7SAAxXKl2oFHWEABCkQ6AF6BAgtEAM#v=onepage&q=A%20July%20Dawn%2C%20by%20John%20Francis%20O'Donnell&f=false
> > > > > > > The poem is called "A July Dawn" in that book (pp. 54-55).
> > > No shit. That's the source I used for the text, and that's the name on the poem. Let's note that you found no
> > Did you freeze up again, George Dance? We would recommend that you go to a doctor for that, since it has happened so frequently. Stopping mid-sentence as you do may mean low Mensa levels.
> Sorry; reading your list of "sources" that I'd already tracked down was getting boring, so I probably nodded off. I believe that was what I was going to say: that while you did a good job of looking, you found no new information that would lead anyone to doubt O'Donnell's authorship.
> > Note that book was published in 1891.
> Again, no shit. As you know, all that information -- the poem title, the book title, and the date -- were on the blog; that's where you originally got them from.
> > > > > > > We wonder if Mr. O'Donnell actually wrote the poem?
> > > > > >
> > If there were no obvious errors, that was because you directly copied the poem from another source.
> That's called a non-sequitur. Of course I copied the poem from another source -- I gave the source on the blog -- and I've told you before that I prefer to copy them rather than retype them. That doesn't guarantee there wouldn't be any "obvious errors" though; that would depend on whether my source contained "obvious errors" or not.
> > However, the use of dashes in the poem varies according to the source material. In "Through the Year With the Poets," (1886), there are commas and no dashes. The 1874 printings (with no attribution), use em dashes.
>
> > We found that "Discover Poetry" has the "July Dawning" poem attributed to "Richard Watson Gilder." https://discoverpoetry.com/poems/july-poems/ We wondered why that was, but see that "July Dawning" (with no author credit) directly precedes Mr. Gilder's poem "A Midsummer Song" in "Through the Year With the Poets" (1886). https://archive.org/details/throughyearwithp07adamiala/page/n5/mode/2up (pp. 15-17).
> Yes, that's where I started off, too. But I read through Gilder's book and couldn't find the poem there. So I checked with Adams and found the same thing you did. I mean, you did a good job and all, but you are not telling me anything new.
> > > Of course not. If I find an actual error of fact (which does happen), even a typo, I'll correct it immediately. But again I'll repeat that's a deflection: you and your buffoon didn't find any "errors" in the poem, so you decided to change the subject to something else.
> > See above on some controversy about the poem. Note that we are not Michael's "buffoon." If you cannot carry on a civil discussion, we will have the Mounties mount you.
> I am sorry, but as long as you choose to run in the same troll pack as the Monkey and the Chimp, you are going to be NastyGoon the Big Buffoon. If you wish to be treated to in a more civil manner, I'd be happy to; all you have to do is start behaving like someone who deserves to be treated that way.
> > > > Do you want your blog to incorrectly list sources as "Mamories of the Irish Franciscans"?
> > > That question of yours makes no sense at all, Michael. Why would my blog list a "source" that I haven't used? Once again, that typo which NG found (and which I'd fixed before you'd even showed up in the thread) has nothing to do with the poem or its source or the blog at all.
> > It was on your blog site, for an unknown amount of time.
> See, NG, that's what happens when you run in a pack with Lying Michael; you start telling clumsy, easily disproven lies just like him. We know that typo was *not* on the blog, because you posted a screenshot of it:
>
> https://imgur.com/gallery/mjEYKXl
>
> Anyone who's been on my poetry blog (including you, multiple times) knows that that is *not* it.
>
> Face it, you found no real or pretend "errors" on the blog, so you went looking elsewhere for "errors" you could troll about.
> > It is an embarrassing and funny error.
> No, it isn't that embarrassing. It looks like you get embarrassed by such things, since you delete all the posts where you make mistakes; but no one else really cares. Mistakes happen, and all one can do is fix 'em.
> > Was there an interest in the mammaries of those Franciscans? It certainly does have something to do with the poem and the blog, since it was on the blog
> No, NastyGoon, it was *not* on the blog. You really are turning into Michael Monkey; now you've even started Goebbelsing.
> > and in the bibliography for Mr. O'Donnell. He did not study mammaries.
> > >
> > > I have to conclude that you haven't looked at any of thepoems that NastyGoon has been trolling about, but are just trying to back up your colleague as per your usual m.o.
>
> > Do you really believe that? We do not. ("the poems" are two words)
> Why not? What makes you think Michael Monkey bothers with any of that? That's what he has you for.
> > > Well, let's look at the "errors" you and your colleague claim to have found in this poem. Exactly one: you're now saying I got the author wrong simply because NastyGoon (who, according to you, "knows how to do a little research") did too little of it this time and came up empty-handed. So the two of you 'speculated,' and decided that O'Donnell "probably" did not write it. You couldn't find any errors in this poem, so you made up a "probable" one.
>
> > Look at our citations, George Dance. The first two printings of the poem that survive do not have an identified author.
> I've looked at them. You really have just one source, /Chambers's/. Larcom and Adams were American anthologists; it looks like in this case they just nicked an unsigned poem from a British journal, so they're not independent sources. They attributed it to author unknown because there was no author given on that page in /Chambers's/.
> > One source on the Internet says it was written by Mr. Gilder.
> Well, we both know how that happened. While Discover Poetry is a good site to find poems other sites don't carry, it can't be considered a reliable source for determining authorship. That's all you can conclude from that.
> > We do not have the clippings of newspaper articles or other papers that were gathered for the "Poems" book, so we do not know for sure who actually write it.
> "...we do not know for sure who actually *wrote* it." (past tense). The papers probably went to the Irish Literary Society, and are wherever their files went. If there were a question of authorship, they'd be available, but there really is none.
> > It may have been Mr. O'Donnell or he may have appropriated it.
> I'm sorry, NG, but just because we haven't seen the source material, that is no reason to insinuate that O'Donnell was a plagiarist -- or that the editor, Frank T. Kelly, was incompetent. I have no reason to doubt that all the poems in the book are O'Donnell's own.
> > Note that we did not write (nor did Michael) that he "probably" did not write the poem.
> You wrote only: "We wonder if Mr. O'Donnell actually wrote the poem?"
> Michael Monkey answered your question: " it's highly probable that a mistake or two had been made. One cannot blame George "BM" Dance for this." ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> You're right: Michael Monkey didn't say I made a "probable" error. He said I made a "highly probable" mistake.
> > > Do you think your notion that I'd change anything on the blog or wiki because two unreliable sources made up a story like that, much less that I'd believes you'd done me an "invaluable favor" by getting me to do that, deserves anything but scorn?
> > Then you are a fool, George Dance.
> There you go, lashing out just like someone I won't mention again in this post.
>
> Instead of that, let's look at your evidence. You found one source for the poem - /Chambers's/ - as all the other sites seem to have copied from that one. Did O'Donnell contribute to /Chambers's/? Indeed he did; according to the Digital Victorian Poetry Project, he contributed 16 poems in total to the magazine -- including "July Dawning":
> https://dvpp.uvic.ca/prs_417.html
>
> I'm sure you'd have run into that site, in time. It took me long enough -- a good part of three weeks -- to find it. And you were pressed for time, as you needed something for your troll war.
> > Also, "believes" should be "believe."
> Shall I expect another imgur picture? if so, please do not label it as from my "blog."

Interesting reading indeed...