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Is Macron a monster ? Story of a humanitarian mission in Rwanda that

alt.history.what-if

Posted: 2 Days 13 Hours ago by: Steve Brown

The United Nations Security Council authorized, through its resolution 929 of June 22, 1994 adopted under Chapter VII and on the initiative of France, a so-called humanitarian operation which can use force on the ground. This humanitar

Re: Italy in 1943 (thread)

alt.history.what-if

Posted: 2 Days 21 Hours ago by: Trolidan7

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Emmanuel_III_of_Italy#1946_referendum I was wondering, exactly what goes into results likely being considered to be rigged and what ones have less fraud and are considered to be real? The most interes

Re: Italy in 1943 (thread)

alt.history.what-if

Posted: 3 Days 21 Hours ago by: The Horny Goat

First I've heard of this - what specific form did this rigging take? I think it was more a question of FDR being madly in love with Stalin than any other factor. It's only a slight exaggeration to say he liked Stalin rather more than

Re: Italy in 1943 (thread)

alt.history.what-if

Posted: 4 Days 15 Hours ago by: Louis Epstein

The Germans wanted him for a figleaf,what would they have done differently if they couldn't have him?...how would Italians have reacted differently? -=-=- The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again, at least as tall as before...or ter

Re: Italy in 1943 (thread)

alt.history.what-if

Posted: 4 Days 15 Hours ago by: Louis Epstein

It's been said that pro-republic forces rigged the results. Different events could have reduced the chance of this. The Allies didn't have much issue with betraying the Yugoslav monarchists in favor of Tito. -=-=- The World Trade Ce

Re: Pick Your 'Grad... (thread)

alt.history.what-if

Posted: 6 Days 21 Hours ago by: pyotr filipivich

Realistically "Bah, Nazi science sneers at your 'realistically'." As you said : denying the oil to the soviets is a win. Getting it into production and supplying the Reich is a bigger win. I'm not sure what advantage joining the Axi

Re: Pick Your 'Grad... (thread)

alt.history.what-if

Posted: 7 Days 11 Hours ago by: The Horny Goat

The thrust towards the oil fields was only about denying them to the Soviets - but that alone would have been a huge step towards ultimate victory. Realistically simply capturing the oil fields doesn't help German oil production since wi

Re: Pick Your 'Grad... (thread)

alt.history.what-if

Posted: 8 Days ago by: pyotr filipivich

My understanding is that Stalingrad was suppose to be a feint in that direction by the Sixth Army, instead it got bogged down in trying to take the and was destroyed. Keeping the 6th out of Stalingrad would have kept it intact, and not

Re: Pick Your 'Grad... (thread)

alt.history.what-if

Posted: 8 Days 1 Hour ago by: The Horny Goat

Complete agreement here PARTICULARLY as a German capture of Leningrad would have encouraged Finland to move east to the sea which would greatly aid German logistics and make Scandanavia a quiet front for them (i.e. no more PQ17 type batt

Re: Pick Your 'Grad... (thread)

alt.history.what-if

Posted: 8 Days 2 Hours ago by: Dimensional Traveler

I suspect it would be Leningrad. Free up troops for redeployment. Even if the Germans had taken Stalingrad I'm not sure it would have really done them that much good. Already too far east for their logistics tail possibly.

Pick Your 'Grad...

alt.history.what-if

Posted: 8 Days 12 Hours ago by: Louis Epstein

In WW II Germany's invasion of the USSR bogged down in long,unsuccessful sieges of Stalingrad and Leningrad... which of these sieges succeeding would have made more difference overall? -=-=- The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,

Re: Online Dating Sites : Find Single Women and Men (thread)

alt.history.what-if

Posted: 17 Days 7 Hours ago by: soc women

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Re: Italy in 1943 (thread)

alt.history.what-if

Posted: 18 Days 18 Hours ago by: Rich Rostrom

That was III Rumanian Army. Italian VIII Army was further west. The Soviets attacked straight west against VIII Army in January 1943. By September 1943 the remnants of VIII Army had been withdrawn.

Re: Italy in 1943 (thread)

alt.history.what-if

Posted: 19 Days 19 Hours ago by: The Horny Goat

For sure - and in an amphibious campaign early capture of ports is essential and the two biggest ports in southern Italy were / are Taranto and Naples. Bari was important but not as important as the other two.

Re: Italy in 1943 (thread)

alt.history.what-if

Posted: 19 Days 19 Hours ago by: The Horny Goat

Roughly how many Italians were still serving in Russia in 1943? My understanding that the main Italian formations were north of Stalingrad directly in the path of the main northern Soviet pincer that met their southern counterpart at Kal

Re: AHC: Mitterand defeats De Gaulle 1965 (thread)

alt.history.what-if

Posted: 19 Days 21 Hours ago by: Rich Rostrom

Does the PoD also imply a Left victory in the 1962 legislative election? Because otherwise Mitterand would e governing with a hostile legislature. But that change would have effects before 1965. Platforms are words. Once in office, the

Re: AHC: Mitterand defeats De Gaulle 1965 (thread)

alt.history.what-if

Posted: 19 Days 21 Hours ago by: Rich Rostrom

Would he? ISTM that a condition of PCF support would be continuing De Gaulle's quasi-neutralist foreign policy. Mitterand was no Attlee. Another knock-on could be "no 1968 riots". The great radical outbreak of that year was in opposition

Re: Italy in 1943 (thread)

alt.history.what-if

Posted: 19 Days 21 Hours ago by: Rich Rostrom

Troops of the RSI did fight agaisnt the Allies. No; while the Germans suspected Italy was going to defect, and had planned for it, the actual occupation (Operation AXIS) took place after 8 September. Actually, it made a fair amount of

Re: Italy in 1943 (thread)

alt.history.what-if

Posted: 19 Days 21 Hours ago by: Rich Rostrom

Umm, this is silly. The Allies are already fighting in Italy against the Germans In Calabria, and have occupied a lot of Italian territory (e.g. Sicily). Italian troops are fighting on the Eastern Front, and are occupying large areas in

Re: Italy in 1943 (thread)

alt.history.what-if

Posted: 19 Days 21 Hours ago by: Rich Rostrom

Italian forces in Sardinia and Corsica fought against the Germans there (which they outnumbered). In both cases, the Germans succeeded in evacuating their forces as planned, but took some casualties, and the Italian forces were not defeat

Re: Italy in 1943 (thread)

alt.history.what-if

Posted: 22 Days 20 Hours ago by: Dimensional Traveler

And Finland. Sweden and Finland are apparently working together to submit simultaneous applications to join NATO by the middle of May now. Putin is not happy and doesn't understand why "Don't ally with anyone or I'll invade you!" isn'

Re: Italy in 1943 (thread)

alt.history.what-if

Posted: 22 Days 21 Hours ago by: pyotr filipivich

The joke was that prior to the war the German High command was asked "What happens if Italy come into the war?" The Answer was "If they come against us, it will take 2 divisions, 3 tops, to hold the passes. If they come in on our side,

Re: Italy in 1943 (thread)

alt.history.what-if

Posted: 22 Days 22 Hours ago by: Graham Truesdale

Looking at NATO's historic composition, it was founded with 12 members of which 7 (UK, Canada, Norway, Denmark and the three Benelux) were monarchies and 5 (USA, France, Portugal, Italy and Iceland) were republics. When the Kingdom of Gree

Re: Italy in 1943 (thread)

alt.history.what-if

Posted: 22 Days 23 Hours ago by: Graham Truesdale

And so are the three Benelux countries, Denmark and Spain. And https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-zelenskyy-kyiv-business-lloyd-austin-2a7cd301a33083e46490fe954039b550 says that Sweden may apply for NATO membership by the end of nex

Re: Italy in 1943 (thread)

alt.history.what-if

Posted: 23 Days 17 Hours ago by: The Horny Goat

While it's possible an initial Allied landing further north than Naples could have had the effect you describe a landing at somewhere around Anzio / Rome would have been outside effective air cover after the Sicilian campaign which as I

Re: Italy in 1943 (thread)

alt.history.what-if

Posted: 23 Days 20 Hours ago by: Dimensional Traveler

No, Italy could not have suddenly "gone neutral". They were at war and had to surrender. The "long slow war" up the Italian peninsula was against German forces, not Italian forces. By the time the Allies had landed at the toe of the

Re: Italy in 1943 (thread)

alt.history.what-if

Posted: 24 Days ago by: Trolidan7

It is not obvious whether that was a separate question concerning the long term nature of the monarchy in Italy. The nature of the question seems to me as to whether you could have had all of Italy be able to enter something like neutral

Re: Italy in 1943 (thread)

alt.history.what-if

Posted: 24 Days 20 Hours ago by: Dimensional Traveler

That I don't know enough to make a guess. I think a lot would depend on whether he made this suicidal call for the Italian Army to fight the Germans before or after he reached Allied control territory. And now that I say that I suspec

Re: Russia Doesn't Spare Frederick (thread)

alt.history.what-if

Posted: 24 Days 20 Hours ago by: Trolidan7

Perhaps a bit earlier than that would be needed.

Re: AHC: Mitterand defeats De Gaulle 1965 (thread)

alt.history.what-if

Posted: 25 Days ago by: The Horny Goat

Another knock on effect of a Mitterand victory would have been a much weaker Quebec separatist movement in Canada as in this scenario De Gaulle doesn't go to Montreal in July 1967 and say "Vive le Quebec libre" (or if he does the impact

Re: Italy in 1943 (thread)

alt.history.what-if

Posted: 25 Days ago by: The Horny Goat

I agree - my impression however was that the point of the question was whether Victor Emmanuel would have either (a) gotten himself killed or (b) permanently secured the survival of the Italian monarchy - or more likely BOTH

AHC: Mitterand defeats De Gaulle 1965

alt.history.what-if

Posted: 25 Days 6 Hours ago by: David Tenner

Not sure how to bring this about, but what if Mitterrand not only exceeds expectations (as he did) in 1965 but actually wins? He got about 45% in OTL. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1965_French_presidential_election Suppose he somehow go

Re: Italy in 1943 (thread)

alt.history.what-if

Posted: 25 Days 12 Hours ago by: Dimensional Traveler

I don't think Mussolini did anything notable between when Skorzeny freed him and a mob lynched him (and his mistress).

Re: Italy in 1943 (thread)

alt.history.what-if

Posted: 25 Days 13 Hours ago by: Louis Epstein

What if the Skorzeny raid to free Mussolini led to Mussolini suffering the fate of Ivan VI of Russia (being killed because there was an attempt to free him)? -=-=- The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again, at least as tall as before

Re: Russia Doesn't Spare Frederick (thread)

alt.history.what-if

Posted: 26 Days 12 Hours ago by: Robert Woodward

Why would that follow? Wolfe was already besieging Quebec City on August 12, 1759 and, what with communication times, what would stop British victory on September 13? No matter what happens to Prussia, I don't see the French having mu

Re: Italy in 1943 (thread)

alt.history.what-if

Posted: 26 Days 20 Hours ago by: Dimensional Traveler

My immediate thought is that it would have led to the slaughter of any Italian forces that actually tried to disarm German forces.

Italy in 1943

alt.history.what-if

Posted: 26 Days 23 Hours ago by: Trolidan7

Italy in 1943 The what-if is simply this. In the afternoon of September 8th and the morning of September 9th of 1943, instead of fleeing south to allied controlled areas at Brindisi in southern Italy, King Victor Emmanuel III of Italy mak

Re: Russia Doesn't Spare Frederick (thread)

alt.history.what-if

Posted: 26 Days 23 Hours ago by: Trolidan7

No American Revolution because France is still a significant power in North America? (Would the point of departure from our time line need to be a little bit before that to be more likely?) Would Shah Alam II still be blinded in this ti

Russia Doesn't Spare Frederick

alt.history.what-if

Posted: 28 Days 15 Hours ago by: Louis Epstein

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_House_of_Brandenburg If Empress Elizabeth of Russia doesn't die in 1762... or her generals are more aggressive in 1759...Poland and the Holy Roman Empire might have quite different fates, with B

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