Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 10/10/2022 10:56 am, Daryl wrote:
>> On 10/10/2022 10:04 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>> On 10/10/2022 9:37 am, Daryl wrote:
>>>> On 10/10/2022 8:46 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>> On 9/10/2022 1:21 pm, Daryl wrote:
>>>>>> On 9/10/2022 12:31 pm, Noddy wrote:
>>>>>>> On 9/10/2022 11:01 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 9/10/2022 10:06 am, Noddy wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You know Trev, you've been singing the praises of Al-Ion
>>>>>>>>> battery technology and how it's going to change the world for
>>>>>>>>> some time now, like 5 years or more, yet in spite of all that
>>>>>>>>> praise they *still* haven't hit the market as a usable product.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> **TWENTY THREE YEARS is the time it took for Li-Ion batteries
>>>>>>>> to reach marketing stage.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yeah, I understood you the first time. But you continually bleat
>>>>>>> about Al-Ion batteries as if they're here ready to solve the
>>>>>>> world's problems now, and that's *not* the reality.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is it Trev?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Why do you think that is?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> **All the problems have not yet been solved. Yet.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yeah, that's right. It's kinda like claiming that flying cars
>>>>>>> are fantastic. Or, at least they *will* be when someone gets
>>>>>>> around to making them work :)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> However, whilst BEVs certainly have their place (thanks, in
>>>>>>>>>> no small part to Australia's 3rd largest car importer - Tesla),
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Third largest car importer? Yeah, I don't think so....
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ** https://www.canstarblue.com.au/vehicles/top-selling-cars/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Tesla Model Y - #3
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 3rd Most popular individual *model*, Trevor. Not 3rd largest car
>>>>>>> importer based on total unit sales. MG sold more vehicles in
>>>>>>> Australia in 2021 than Tesla, and according to this site here
>>>>>>> Tesla doesn't even make the top ten:
>>>>>>>   >
>>>>>>> https://www.savings.com.au/car-loans/biggest-car-manufacturers-brands-australia
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Electric vehicles accounted for a paltry 1.7% of new car sales
>>>>>>> in Australia in 2021, which is an increase of a whopping 230% on
>>>>>>> the previous year, but it is *still* nothing but "niche" in the
>>>>>>> grand scheme.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Funny. I can recall saying this very thing some time ago and
>>>>>>>>> you poo-pooed the idea claiming that fuel cell technology
>>>>>>>>> wasn't the answer thanks to the difficultly and cost
>>>>>>>>> associated with setting up the refuelling network.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> **Nope. I told you that operating an INTERNAL COMBUSTION engine
>>>>>>>> on H2 was dumb. REALLY dumb.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That was one comment you made, but that's not what I'm talking
>>>>>>> about.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I also told you that there was a grand total of ONE H2 fuel
>>>>>>>> cell refuelling stations across Australia. OTOH, as of
>>>>>>>> September 2021, there were more than 3,000 public chargers, 470
>>>>>>>> Superchargers and millions of households where EVs could charge
>>>>>>>> their batteries. H2 fuel cell technology has a long way to go
>>>>>>>> in Australia to catch up with BEV chargers.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Which is precisely why you claimed that fuel cells would never
>>>>>>> take off. Your view seems to have changed somewhat in recent times.
>>>>>>>>> I *still* maintain the belief that battery and hybrid electric
>>>>>>>>> cars are nothing other than a novelty, and fuel cell will
>>>>>>>>> eventually become the dominant zero emission standard.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> **Hybrid cars will dominate the market, along with BEVs in the
>>>>>>>> near term.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I doubt it. They're readily available now, and while they're
>>>>>>> popularity is increasing their overall sales figures are
>>>>>>> *remarkably* low.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   Hybrids make a great deal of sense for many Australians. H2 fuel
>>>>>>>> cell vehicles may or may not succeed. We need a lot more
>>>>>>>> infrastructure. A LOT MORE. Certainly, in Japan, H2 fuel cell
>>>>>>>> EVs will likely be dominant.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The exact same thing can be said of plug in EV's. We don't have
>>>>>>> the grid capacity to support them in anything other than small
>>>>>>> numbers, and if we all switched to them tomorrow the country
>>>>>>> would implode.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The problem this country faces is that we're fucked *either*
>>>>>>> way, as we don't have the infrastructure in place to support
>>>>>>> *any* zero emissions vehicles in large numbers which makes
>>>>>>> ridiculous policies from lunatics like The Greens look even
>>>>>>> *more* mentally challenged.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Even more so when Australia's total contribution to the worlds
>>>>>> CO2 emissions is about 1.2% and emissions from private vehicles
>>>>>> accounts for about 10% of that 1.2% so if we all switched to zero
>>>>>> emission vehicles tomorrow it wouldn't make any difference.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> **EVERY SINGLE human on the planet needs to work to reduce CO2
>>>>> emissions. That includes every single Chinese, American and
>>>>> Australia citizens.
>>>>>
>>>>> No excuses.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> I'm not against making an effort to reduce emissions and that has
>>>> already happened over time, what I am against is the BS that in
>>>> Australia we need rush into EV's as if they are going to save us
>>>> all, its just a huge scam.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> **You seem to imagine that:
>>>
>>> * The problem is not urgent. The planet it warming fast. If CO2
>>> levels reach approximately 500ppm, we are all fucked. NOTHING we do
>>> can save our civilisation. Not a damned thing.
>>
>> Depends on the way you view urgent, like I said our vehicle emissions
>> account for less than 0.5% of the worlds CO2 emissions, if every car
>> in Australia switched to EV's tomorrow it would make bugger all
>> difference to emissions whilst bankrupting the country, it just
>> doesn't make sense to rush around like headless chooks, more speed
>> less haste.
>> The sky is NOT falling Chicken Little.
>
> **I will say once more:
>
> EVERY SINGLE human on the planet must act to reduce emissions. That
> includes every Chinese citizen, every American and every Australian.
>
> No exceptions.
>
>>
>>> * That Australia still makes cars. We don't. We have to buy what
>>> others build. Increasingly, that means EVs.
>>
>> Possibly but as recently as last night I read that Ford have dropped
>> the idea of all their vehicles being electric, they have decided that
>> the market for IC Mustangs is so strong they will continue to make
>> them, the decision was driven by customer demand.
>
> **And how many Mustangs are sold around the world, compared all the
> other Ford vehicles.
>
> Face it: Despite the enormous popularity of the Mustang, it is still a
> niche market. Then, of course, is the Mustang-E.
>
>> I also think that mostly because of the cost many people will just
>> hang onto older cars, mine are both 20yrs old and nothing wrong with
>> either of them, wife's car is 6yrs old and also unlikely to be
>> replaced anytime soon.
>
> **Sure. So will I. Until petrol becomes so expensive that it no longer
> makes any sense to drive a petrol powered vehicle. My next car will be
> an EV, or PHEV. No doubt about it.
>
>>
>>> * EVs are not a scam.
>>
>>
>> They are in that they are overly expensive,
>
> **A dual motor Model 3 beats the pants off a Ferrari. For around 25%
> of the price. How does that translate to "overly expensive" in your
> world?

Xeno wrote:
> On 10/10/2022 2:03 pm, Daryl wrote:
>> On 10/10/2022 1:38 pm, jonz wrote:
>>> On 10/10/2022 9:16 AM, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>> On 10/10/2022 9:09 am, Noddy wrote:
>>>>> On 10/10/2022 8:46 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>>> On 9/10/2022 1:21 pm, Daryl wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Even more so when Australia's total contribution to the worlds
>>>>>>> CO2 emissions is about 1.2% and emissions from private vehicles
>>>>>>> accounts for about 10% of that 1.2% so if we all switched to
>>>>>>> zero emission vehicles tomorrow it wouldn't make any difference.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> **EVERY SINGLE human on the planet needs to work to reduce CO2
>>>>>> emissions. That includes every single Chinese, American and
>>>>>> Australia citizens.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No excuses.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cool. When do *you* plan on starting?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> **I started more than 45 years ago. I made a decision that reduced
>>>> my CO2 footprint by a HUGE amount. I chose not to breed. People are
>>>> the problem, so I decided not to add to that problem.
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>
>>>   Thank dog for small mercies.. :)))
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>> LOL, wiping out the population will fix the problem, the Chinese
>> tried that with Covid and failed, what should we try next:-)
>>
>>
> Well, the Chinese had a *one child policy* and that worked all too
> well. They now have an emerging population demographic *decline* that
> is *terminal*. Prior to Covid, China's population was predicted to
> *halve* by 2070. Covid has brought that forward to 2050. So you are
> actually incorrect in your *assumption*. Probably plucked it out of
> your arse, the same place Darren plucks all his assumptions from.

and his trade qualifications..

> China's population has *already peaked* and is now on the decline.
> Both the one child policy and Covid *combined* have absolutely smashed
> China's overpopulation problem. China now has insufficient people of
> working age to man all the factories and it's going to get much worse
> in the future as people age out of the workforce. FFS, they lost a
> *million people* recently due to a *miscount* during a census. Worse,
> there are insufficient people of child bearing age to *reverse* the
> decline. In short, China is screwed!
>
> Read and learn
>
> https://www.scmp.com/news/china/series/3131538/chinas-census-what-impact-will-national-demographic-data-have?
>
>

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FUCK PUTIN!!

On 10/10/2022 10:11 am, Noddy wrote:
> On 10/10/2022 8:43 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> On 9/10/2022 6:18 pm, Noddy wrote:
>
>> **Clearly you did, else you would not have asked the question.
>>
>>   but I think you fail to understand what you're saying. You
>>> continually bleat about Al-Ion batteries saving the day as if they're
>>> here doing it *now*!
>>
>> **I have NEVER stated that Al-Ion batteries are practical today. Not
>> once.
>
> No, but you factor them into virtually every vehicle related
> environmental comment you make as if they're out there changing the
> world as we speak.

**Nope. They WILL change the world.

>
> They are not, and they won't be for some time. *If* they ever get here,
> and *if* they perform anywhere near as fantastically well as you claim
> they will they will be an absolutely amazing game changer. But at the
> moment they remain an *if* and nothing more.
>
>>>> Has battery technology improved over the past couple of decades? Or
>>>> not?
>>>
>>> Yeah, it has. It's gone from being completely shithouse to pretty
>>> average. So what?
>>
>> **You think Li-Ion batteries are "average"? In what sense?
>
> Like all batteries, they're limited in their ability and they have a
> finite life. I would have thought that was obvious.

**Well colour me surprised. I guess you don't use a mobile phone,
laptop, ipad, battery powered tools or any other portable device
manufactured in the past 15 years. They all use Li-Ion batteries. And
they do a great job. A big improvement over NiCads and NiMH batteries.

>
>>> Again, I refer to my original point of that being exactly the same as
>>> saying flying cars will be awesome once they figure out how to make
>>> them work.
>>
>> **Bad analogy. Try again. I will say once more: Research into Al-Ion
>> batteries has been around for around 10 years. It was 23 years before
>> Li-Ion batteries were ready for sale.
>
> It's not a bad analogy at all Trevor. At the end of the day what you're
> talking about here is an idea that would be fantastic *if* they can make
> it work. It doesn't matter how long they've been researching it. They
> haven't made it happen yet.

**I have told you this before: Al-Ion batteries DO work. And quite well.
The wrinkles are still being ironed out.

>
>>>> **Sure. However, as I constantly remind you: Australia doesn't build
>>>> any cars. We have to buy what everyone else builds. That is,
>>>> increasingly, hybrids and EVs.
>>>
>>> And I remind you that that increase is *remarkably* slow.
>>
>> **And, once more: Australia no longer builds cars. We must buy what
>> other people build. Increasingly, that means EVs of some kind.
>
> It may do, but this isn't anything new. We've *always* bought imported
> cars, and even when local car manufacturing was in full flight imported
> car sales over the last 40 years were the dominant market segment.
>
> EV sales are certainly on the increase, but *again* as we sit here in
> October of 2022 they are incredibly niche. I expect that will change in
> the coming decade, but I *also* expect that IC powered vehicles will
> still be commonly available for many years to come.

**New ones will not be. Unless you want to buy that new Lada you've been
lusting after, EVs and hybrids will be the answer.

>
>>> At the moment the majority of the most popular vehicles on the market
>>> are all diesels, and there is nothing on the horizon to suggest that
>>> will change any time soon. In fact, I expect in not too distant
>>> future you'll see a *lot* of manufacturers who jumped on the "Phase
>>> out fossils" bandwagon a couple of years ago to announce that their
>>> initial projections were a tad unrealistic and that they will be
>>> staying with IC powered vehciles for some time yet.
>>
>> **This would be your 'flying car' moment. The evidence is such that
>> EVs (and hybrids) are increasing market share across the plant.
>
> They are in some parts of the world, certainly. Not so much here, but
> then there are many factors at play here that make our market somewhat
> unique. Not the least of which is cost.

**Again: Australia doesn't make any cars. The places that do (except for
Russia and maybe India) will be building EVs and hybrids. Let us know
how your Lada goes (or not) when you take delivery.

>>> Actually Trev, if you go back and read the original comments I never
>>> said that hydrogen powered ICE's were the way of the future, but
>>> rather that the idea should be investigated to see what could be made
>>> of it.
>>
>> **And I demonstrated just how dumb an idea it was.
>>
>>> Companies like Toyota apparently thought along similar lines which is
>>> why they put time and money into the idea,
>>
>> **Toyota do a lot of things that they never expect to put into
>> production. Perhaps Toyota built their H2 ICE cars to demonstrate just
>> how dumb the idea is.
>
> Really? :)

**Sure. Have you seen some of Toyota's wacky stuff?

https://mag.toyota.co.uk/5-of-the-wackiest-toyotas-ever-produced/

All those cars actually made it into production.

>
>>   and I believe some
>>> agricultural engine manufacturers have already converted existing
>>> engines to burn hydrogen and are either ready to do to market or have
>>> done already.
>>
>> **Goal post shift duly noted. PASSENGER CARS will never burn H2.
>> Trucks and farm equipment is quite different and may be viable for a
>> variety of reasons. The value of the equipment is one of those reasons.
>
> There is no goalpost shift here Trevor.

**Since we are discussing passenger cars, it was a goal-post shift.

I was just demonstrating that as
> much as you believe burning hydrogen in IC engines is a "dumb idea",

**For cars, it is.

> there are in fact a number of practical uses for it as we sit here
> today. I'd also suggest that the jury is still out on the idea of more
> widespread use as we are in the very early stages of it's development.

**Still dumb. Never happen.

>
> 20 years ago if I'd said to you that you that one day you would be able
> to buy a car that came with adaptive cruise control, autonomous braking,
>  active lane guidance and a host of other smart features powered by a 2
> litre engine IC engine using direct injection & variable valve timing to
> produce over 200kW all for around 50 thousand bucks you would have
> probably laughed your head off.

**Not at all: All those things were under development for many years.
Variable valve timing was first used on a car back in 1910. Although
direct fuel injection was first developed in the 19th century, Chrysler
was the first to release EFI back in 1958. Mitsubishi released a LIDAR
cruise control system back in 1992. And so on. Prices have fallen so the
stuff is now cheap and readily available. Guess what happens with more
mass production of EV cars and batteries?

>
> But guess what.....
>
>>> Just imagine how quickly the power generating network would evaporate
>>> up it's own arsehole if millions of EV owners all came home from work
>>> at 6pm and plugs in their cars to charge the battery :)
>>
>> **27%.
>
> So you say. And So I'm not believing you :)

**You don't have to believe me. I provided the evidence from the US.

>
>>>
>>> We *barely* have enough power generation now to get through an
>>> average summer without brownouts and shutdowns. The idea is laughable.
>>
>> **Again: We need to find around 27% more electricity over the next 15
>> years.
>
> Trevor, for fuck's sake. This country currently has 20 million
> registered vehicles on it's roads. Are you *seriously* suggesting that
> if every one of those vehicles were swapped to EV's tomorrow and they
> were all plugged in and charged every single night as they would need to
> be, that *all* we would need to accommodate that would be an extra 27%
> of power generation over what we currently produce now?

**Yep. Don't forget: The average distance travelled by Australian cars
is 36km each day. How much electricity would that be?

Hint: A Tesla Model 3 consumes 13kWhr/100km. So, to charge a Model 3 for
a 36km drive will require 4.68kWhr.

IOW: Fuck-all.

>
> ROTFL :)
>
> Sometimes I think you genuinely live in La-La Land. I dunno about your
> part of the world, but here in Labor fucked Victoria our power
> generation system is *so* inadequately bad that we *cannot* get through
> a single summer where 100% of the *current* demands are met, with power
> companies having to offer financial incentives for customers to switch
> off their air conditioners so we don't fry the system with massive
> brownouts and keep things running for emergency services.

On 10/10/2022 10:14 am, Noddy wrote:
> On 10/10/2022 8:20 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> On 9/10/2022 8:56 pm, Daryl wrote:
>
>>>> **Indeed. And it bears repeating. H2 ICE cars are dumb.
>>>
>>> Why?
>>
>> **Because to store the H2 at 10,000psi requires substantial space for
>> fuel tanks. Re-filling those tanks is also difficult.
>
> What's "difficult" about it? If the Japanese are able to implement fuel
> cell use, what would prevent anyone else from doing so just as easily?
>
>>> Only problem I see with them is the same problem as h2 fuel cells
>>> which is a lack of places to refill at the moment.
>>
>> **Nope. H2 ICE vehicles MAY work for large trucks and farm equipment.
>> It will never work for passenger cars. Not in any practical sense,
>> anyway.Toyota proved that:
>>
>> https://www.dailysportscar.com/2021/04/28/hydrogen-powered-toyota-corolla-makes-its-first-run-at-fuji.html
>>
>> The car had a range of 50km (under race conditions), despite being
>> fitted with 4 X 10,000psi fuel tanks.
>
> Trevor, you understand that vehicles under "race conditions" use
> *massive* amounts of fuel compared to day to day use around suburbia,
> right?

**200km for a petrol car. 50km for a similar car, running H2. AND no
back seat.

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On 10/10/2022 10:29 am, Noddy wrote:
> On 10/10/2022 8:02 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> On 9/10/2022 11:07 pm, Noddy wrote:
>>> On 9/10/2022 3:10 pm, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>> On 9/10/2022 1:14 pm, Daryl wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> **When I bought the Levorg 5 years ago (yikes!) I would have loved
>>>> to buy a decent PHEV. Unfortunately, the sole choice back then was
>>>> the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV. Horrible thing. Too big, too
>>>> cumbersome and handled like a large boat. Things have changed in the
>>>> past 5 years. Thankfully. PHEVs are a great solution for many
>>>> Australian drivers. I figured that, had I bought the Mitsubishi, I
>>>> would need to fuel it twice per year.
>>>
>>> So, clearly environmental concerns are not a big thing for you,
>>
>> **Incorrect.
>
> Really? I find that strange, as despite you making a *lot* of noise
> about it you seem to do very little about it when it comes to factoring
> it into your daily life.

**You know NOTHING about my daily life, just as I know nothing about yours.

>
> Bizarre really....
>
>>   which is
>>> kind of odd given your stance as an environmental campaigner. Then
>>> again, you live in an old, inefficient house with no solar, which in
>>> itself is strange for a guy who claims he's been a fan of
>>> environmental science for 40 years :)
>>
>> **Rather than filling my roof with Solar panels, I have lots of trees
>> to shade my home. I can't have both. I choose trees. My air con gets
>> used around 10 days per year. I NEVER need to use heating.
>
> Right.

**One of the joys of living on the coast in Sydney. Fabulous climate. I
recall the first time I stayed with a mate in Melbourne. All these vents
in the floor. Central heating. Who knew? Doesn't exist in Sydney.

>
>>>> **In the case of the Mitsubishi, the price differential was not as
>>>> substantial. Dunno about today.
>>>
>>> The Mitsubishi would have done the job for you Trev.
>>
>> **NO, it would not. It was a horrible thing to drive.
>
> I'm sure it would have been a different drive to the Levorg.

**No. It was a horrible drive.

  I'm not
> sure that "horrible" is fair,

**Why? Have you actually driven a 2017 model Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV?
I have. They're fucked.

but clearly didn't like it and that's your
> choice. However the essential arithmetic is this:
>
> Your requirement first and foremost if I remember correctly was that you
> needed a wagon for work, and you had the choice of buying either a wagon
> that met your "work" requirements and which was also an environmentally
> responsible choice, or one that met your work requirements but offered
> no environmental benefits and was simply an indulgence.

**I have readily acknowledged that the Levorg is not the most
environmentally sound vehicles to drive. However, it met all my
requirements at the time. They included:

* Safety. It was a VERY safe car, with high levels of passive and active
safety.
* Practical. The Levorg is a usefully sized, relatively compact wagon.
* Fuel economy. Long term fuel consumption (50:50 city/country) sits at
around 7L/100km. Acceptable and I drive relatively sparingly anyway
(5,000km/year).
* Fun. More fun than a basket of puppies.
* Reliability. The Levorg has been utterly reliable. My mechanic tells
me that Subarus are quite reliable (like any Japanese or Korean built
car) and spare parts are plentiful and acceptably priced (mostly). Even
better, my mechanic like working on Subarus. Unlike the Porshe Boxter he
had on the hoist last time I visited him. He said a simple oil change in
the Porsche was extremely messy and time consuming.

>
> You chose indulgence over conscience,

**No. I made my choice, based a wide range of things.

which is perfectly fine as it's a
> free country and you can do what you like. However when you perpetually
> comment about how "EVERY SINGLE human on the planet needs to work to
> reduce CO2 emissions" yet you yourself apparently chose *not* to do that
> it makes you look like just a *little* bit of a hypocrite.
>
> Don't you think?

**Nope. I made the biggest single environmental decision that a human
can make more than 40 years ago. My neighbour two doors over has 4
children. Each one emits more CO2 than I do. My immediate neighbour has
two kids and runs his air con every single day of the year. I don't run
mine, unless it is brutally hot. I never use it during Winter.

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On 10/10/2022 4:43 pm, yosemite sam wrote:
> Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> On 10/10/2022 10:56 am, Daryl wrote:
>>> On 10/10/2022 10:04 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>> On 10/10/2022 9:37 am, Daryl wrote:
>>>>> On 10/10/2022 8:46 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>>> On 9/10/2022 1:21 pm, Daryl wrote:
>>>>>>> On 9/10/2022 12:31 pm, Noddy wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 9/10/2022 11:01 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 9/10/2022 10:06 am, Noddy wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You know Trev, you've been singing the praises of Al-Ion
>>>>>>>>>> battery technology and how it's going to change the world for
>>>>>>>>>> some time now, like 5 years or more, yet in spite of all that
>>>>>>>>>> praise they *still* haven't hit the market as a usable product.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> **TWENTY THREE YEARS is the time it took for Li-Ion batteries
>>>>>>>>> to reach marketing stage.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yeah, I understood you the first time. But you continually bleat
>>>>>>>> about Al-Ion batteries as if they're here ready to solve the
>>>>>>>> world's problems now, and that's *not* the reality.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Is it Trev?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Why do you think that is?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> **All the problems have not yet been solved. Yet.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yeah, that's right. It's kinda like claiming that flying cars
>>>>>>>> are fantastic. Or, at least they *will* be when someone gets
>>>>>>>> around to making them work :)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> However, whilst BEVs certainly have their place (thanks, in
>>>>>>>>>>> no small part to Australia's 3rd largest car importer - Tesla),
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Third largest car importer? Yeah, I don't think so....
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ** https://www.canstarblue.com.au/vehicles/top-selling-cars/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Tesla Model Y - #3
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 3rd Most popular individual *model*, Trevor. Not 3rd largest car
>>>>>>>> importer based on total unit sales. MG sold more vehicles in
>>>>>>>> Australia in 2021 than Tesla, and according to this site here
>>>>>>>> Tesla doesn't even make the top ten:
>>>>>>>>   >
>>>>>>>> https://www.savings.com.au/car-loans/biggest-car-manufacturers-brands-australia
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Electric vehicles accounted for a paltry 1.7% of new car sales
>>>>>>>> in Australia in 2021, which is an increase of a whopping 230% on
>>>>>>>> the previous year, but it is *still* nothing but "niche" in the
>>>>>>>> grand scheme.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Funny. I can recall saying this very thing some time ago and
>>>>>>>>>> you poo-pooed the idea claiming that fuel cell technology
>>>>>>>>>> wasn't the answer thanks to the difficultly and cost
>>>>>>>>>> associated with setting up the refuelling network.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> **Nope. I told you that operating an INTERNAL COMBUSTION engine
>>>>>>>>> on H2 was dumb. REALLY dumb.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That was one comment you made, but that's not what I'm talking
>>>>>>>> about.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I also told you that there was a grand total of ONE H2 fuel
>>>>>>>>> cell refuelling stations across Australia. OTOH, as of
>>>>>>>>> September 2021, there were more than 3,000 public chargers, 470
>>>>>>>>> Superchargers and millions of households where EVs could charge
>>>>>>>>> their batteries. H2 fuel cell technology has a long way to go
>>>>>>>>> in Australia to catch up with BEV chargers.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Which is precisely why you claimed that fuel cells would never
>>>>>>>> take off. Your view seems to have changed somewhat in recent times.
>>>>>>>>>> I *still* maintain the belief that battery and hybrid electric
>>>>>>>>>> cars are nothing other than a novelty, and fuel cell will
>>>>>>>>>> eventually become the dominant zero emission standard.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> **Hybrid cars will dominate the market, along with BEVs in the
>>>>>>>>> near term.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I doubt it. They're readily available now, and while they're
>>>>>>>> popularity is increasing their overall sales figures are
>>>>>>>> *remarkably* low.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   Hybrids make a great deal of sense for many Australians. H2 fuel
>>>>>>>>> cell vehicles may or may not succeed. We need a lot more
>>>>>>>>> infrastructure. A LOT MORE. Certainly, in Japan, H2 fuel cell
>>>>>>>>> EVs will likely be dominant.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The exact same thing can be said of plug in EV's. We don't have
>>>>>>>> the grid capacity to support them in anything other than small
>>>>>>>> numbers, and if we all switched to them tomorrow the country
>>>>>>>> would implode.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The problem this country faces is that we're fucked *either*
>>>>>>>> way, as we don't have the infrastructure in place to support
>>>>>>>> *any* zero emissions vehicles in large numbers which makes
>>>>>>>> ridiculous policies from lunatics like The Greens look even
>>>>>>>> *more* mentally challenged.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Even more so when Australia's total contribution to the worlds
>>>>>>> CO2 emissions is about 1.2% and emissions from private vehicles
>>>>>>> accounts for about 10% of that 1.2% so if we all switched to zero
>>>>>>> emission vehicles tomorrow it wouldn't make any difference.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> **EVERY SINGLE human on the planet needs to work to reduce CO2
>>>>>> emissions. That includes every single Chinese, American and
>>>>>> Australia citizens.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No excuses.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not against making an effort to reduce emissions and that has
>>>>> already happened over time, what I am against is the BS that in
>>>>> Australia we need rush into EV's as if they are going to save us
>>>>> all, its just a huge scam.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> **You seem to imagine that:
>>>>
>>>> * The problem is not urgent. The planet it warming fast. If CO2
>>>> levels reach approximately 500ppm, we are all fucked. NOTHING we do
>>>> can save our civilisation. Not a damned thing.
>>>
>>> Depends on the way you view urgent, like I said our vehicle emissions
>>> account for less than 0.5% of the worlds CO2 emissions, if every car
>>> in Australia switched to EV's tomorrow it would make bugger all
>>> difference to emissions whilst bankrupting the country, it just
>>> doesn't make sense to rush around like headless chooks, more speed
>>> less haste.
>>> The sky is NOT falling Chicken Little.
>>
>> **I will say once more:
>>
>> EVERY SINGLE human on the planet must act to reduce emissions. That
>> includes every Chinese citizen, every American and every Australian.
>>
>> No exceptions.
>>
>>>
>>>> * That Australia still makes cars. We don't. We have to buy what
>>>> others build. Increasingly, that means EVs.
>>>
>>> Possibly but as recently as last night I read that Ford have dropped
>>> the idea of all their vehicles being electric, they have decided that
>>> the market for IC Mustangs is so strong they will continue to make
>>> them, the decision was driven by customer demand.
>>
>> **And how many Mustangs are sold around the world, compared all the
>> other Ford vehicles.
>>
>> Face it: Despite the enormous popularity of the Mustang, it is still a
>> niche market. Then, of course, is the Mustang-E.
>>
>>> I also think that mostly because of the cost many people will just
>>> hang onto older cars, mine are both 20yrs old and nothing wrong with
>>> either of them, wife's car is 6yrs old and also unlikely to be
>>> replaced anytime soon.
>>
>> **Sure. So will I. Until petrol becomes so expensive that it no longer
>> makes any sense to drive a petrol powered vehicle. My next car will be
>> an EV, or PHEV. No doubt about it.
>>
>>>
>>>> * EVs are not a scam.
>>>
>>>
>>> They are in that they are overly expensive,
>>
>> **A dual motor Model 3 beats the pants off a Ferrari. For around 25%
>> of the price. How does that translate to "overly expensive" in your
>> world?
>
>
> you don't compare family cars to a Ferrari, lol! compared to equivalent
> ICE cars EV's are overly expensive

On 10/10/2022 1:59 pm, Daryl wrote:
> On 10/10/2022 1:36 pm, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> On 10/10/2022 10:59 am, Daryl wrote:
>>> On 10/10/2022 10:14 am, Noddy wrote:
>>>> On 10/10/2022 8:20 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>> On 9/10/2022 8:56 pm, Daryl wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>> **Indeed. And it bears repeating. H2 ICE cars are dumb.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why?
>>>>>
>>>>> **Because to store the H2 at 10,000psi requires substantial space
>>>>> for fuel tanks. Re-filling those tanks is also difficult.
>>>>
>>>> What's "difficult" about it? If the Japanese are able to implement
>>>> fuel cell use, what would prevent anyone else from doing so just as
>>>> easily?
>>>>
>>>>>> Only problem I see with them is the same problem as h2 fuel cells
>>>>>> which is a lack of places to refill at the moment.
>>>>>
>>>>> **Nope. H2 ICE vehicles MAY work for large trucks and farm
>>>>> equipment. It will never work for passenger cars. Not in any
>>>>> practical sense, anyway.Toyota proved that:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.dailysportscar.com/2021/04/28/hydrogen-powered-toyota-corolla-makes-its-first-run-at-fuji.html
>>>>>
>>>>> The car had a range of 50km (under race conditions), despite being
>>>>> fitted with 4 X 10,000psi fuel tanks.
>>>>
>>>> Trevor, you understand that vehicles under "race conditions" use
>>>> *massive* amounts of fuel compared to day to day use around
>>>> suburbia, right?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Sure do, the highly modified Toyota engines in Les's race cars use
>>> around 30lts/100km on the track, in stock trim on the road they would
>>> use about 1/3rd of that.
>>>
>>
>> **Which gives them a range of more than 200km, vs. 50km. AND they
>> still have a back seat (or place to put one).
>>
>> If you think that filling up the rear of a small car high pressure H2
>> tanks makes sense, then you are nuts.
>>
>>
> What's the difference is safety terms of having high pressure hydrogen
> or high voltage batteries, both can catch fire in a crash?

**I didn't mention safety. However, since you brought up the topic, read
this:

https://www.renolon.com/electric-car-fire-statistics/

I DID mention how impractical the H2 ICE engine Toyota was. No back seat
and all that.

> Neither is ideal but we have been living with cars that have fuel tanks
> that can catch fire and explode in a crash for many many years and no
> one gives it a second thought, hydrogen tanks or batteries are no
> different.

**Again: That's your strawman. H2 ICE cars will never happen.

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On 10/10/2022 2:15 pm, Noddy wrote:
> On 10/10/2022 1:36 pm, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> On 10/10/2022 10:59 am, Daryl wrote:
>
>>>> Trevor, you understand that vehicles under "race conditions" use
>>>> *massive* amounts of fuel compared to day to day use around
>>>> suburbia, right?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Sure do, the highly modified Toyota engines in Les's race cars use
>>> around 30lts/100km on the track, in stock trim on the road they would
>>> use about 1/3rd of that.
>>>
>>
>> **Which gives them a range of more than 200km, vs. 50km. AND they
>> still have a back seat (or place to put one).
>
> If you think the configuration of a test mule gives you any indication
> of what a final product could possibly be like then you're kidding
> yourself.

**Not the issue. Storage is the problem. 10,000psi fuel tanks have to be
strong and are, inevitably, quite heavy.

>
>> If you think that filling up the rear of a small car high pressure H2
>> tanks makes sense, then you are nuts.
>
> Any more or less sense than filling up public buses with tanks full of
> compressed natural gas?

**Buses are not cars. Natural gas is not stored at 10,000psi in buses.

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Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 10/10/2022 4:43 pm, yosemite sam wrote:
>> Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>> On 10/10/2022 10:56 am, Daryl wrote:
>>>> On 10/10/2022 10:04 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>> On 10/10/2022 9:37 am, Daryl wrote:
>>>>>> On 10/10/2022 8:46 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>> On 9/10/2022 1:21 pm, Daryl wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 9/10/2022 12:31 pm, Noddy wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 9/10/2022 11:01 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 9/10/2022 10:06 am, Noddy wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You know Trev, you've been singing the praises of Al-Ion
>>>>>>>>>>> battery technology and how it's going to change the world
>>>>>>>>>>> for some time now, like 5 years or more, yet in spite of all
>>>>>>>>>>> that praise they *still* haven't hit the market as a usable
>>>>>>>>>>> product.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> **TWENTY THREE YEARS is the time it took for Li-Ion batteries
>>>>>>>>>> to reach marketing stage.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yeah, I understood you the first time. But you continually
>>>>>>>>> bleat about Al-Ion batteries as if they're here ready to solve
>>>>>>>>> the world's problems now, and that's *not* the reality.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Is it Trev?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Why do you think that is?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> **All the problems have not yet been solved. Yet.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yeah, that's right. It's kinda like claiming that flying cars
>>>>>>>>> are fantastic. Or, at least they *will* be when someone gets
>>>>>>>>> around to making them work :)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> However, whilst BEVs certainly have their place (thanks, in
>>>>>>>>>>>> no small part to Australia's 3rd largest car importer -
>>>>>>>>>>>> Tesla),
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Third largest car importer? Yeah, I don't think so....
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ** https://www.canstarblue.com.au/vehicles/top-selling-cars/
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Tesla Model Y - #3
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 3rd Most popular individual *model*, Trevor. Not 3rd largest
>>>>>>>>> car importer based on total unit sales. MG sold more vehicles
>>>>>>>>> in Australia in 2021 than Tesla, and according to this site
>>>>>>>>> here Tesla doesn't even make the top ten:
>>>>>>>>>   >
>>>>>>>>> https://www.savings.com.au/car-loans/biggest-car-manufacturers-brands-australia
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Electric vehicles accounted for a paltry 1.7% of new car sales
>>>>>>>>> in Australia in 2021, which is an increase of a whopping 230%
>>>>>>>>> on the previous year, but it is *still* nothing but "niche" in
>>>>>>>>> the grand scheme.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Funny. I can recall saying this very thing some time ago and
>>>>>>>>>>> you poo-pooed the idea claiming that fuel cell technology
>>>>>>>>>>> wasn't the answer thanks to the difficultly and cost
>>>>>>>>>>> associated with setting up the refuelling network.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> **Nope. I told you that operating an INTERNAL COMBUSTION
>>>>>>>>>> engine on H2 was dumb. REALLY dumb.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That was one comment you made, but that's not what I'm talking
>>>>>>>>> about.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I also told you that there was a grand total of ONE H2 fuel
>>>>>>>>>> cell refuelling stations across Australia. OTOH, as of
>>>>>>>>>> September 2021, there were more than 3,000 public chargers,
>>>>>>>>>> 470 Superchargers and millions of households where EVs could
>>>>>>>>>> charge their batteries. H2 fuel cell technology has a long
>>>>>>>>>> way to go in Australia to catch up with BEV chargers.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Which is precisely why you claimed that fuel cells would never
>>>>>>>>> take off. Your view seems to have changed somewhat in recent
>>>>>>>>> times.
>>>>>>>>>>> I *still* maintain the belief that battery and hybrid
>>>>>>>>>>> electric cars are nothing other than a novelty, and fuel
>>>>>>>>>>> cell will eventually become the dominant zero emission
>>>>>>>>>>> standard.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> **Hybrid cars will dominate the market, along with BEVs in
>>>>>>>>>> the near term.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I doubt it. They're readily available now, and while they're
>>>>>>>>> popularity is increasing their overall sales figures are
>>>>>>>>> *remarkably* low.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>   Hybrids make a great deal of sense for many Australians. H2
>>>>>>>>> fuel
>>>>>>>>>> cell vehicles may or may not succeed. We need a lot more
>>>>>>>>>> infrastructure. A LOT MORE. Certainly, in Japan, H2 fuel cell
>>>>>>>>>> EVs will likely be dominant.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The exact same thing can be said of plug in EV's. We don't
>>>>>>>>> have the grid capacity to support them in anything other than
>>>>>>>>> small numbers, and if we all switched to them tomorrow the
>>>>>>>>> country would implode.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The problem this country faces is that we're fucked *either*
>>>>>>>>> way, as we don't have the infrastructure in place to support
>>>>>>>>> *any* zero emissions vehicles in large numbers which makes
>>>>>>>>> ridiculous policies from lunatics like The Greens look even
>>>>>>>>> *more* mentally challenged.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Even more so when Australia's total contribution to the worlds
>>>>>>>> CO2 emissions is about 1.2% and emissions from private vehicles
>>>>>>>> accounts for about 10% of that 1.2% so if we all switched to
>>>>>>>> zero emission vehicles tomorrow it wouldn't make any difference.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> **EVERY SINGLE human on the planet needs to work to reduce CO2
>>>>>>> emissions. That includes every single Chinese, American and
>>>>>>> Australia citizens.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No excuses.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm not against making an effort to reduce emissions and that has
>>>>>> already happened over time, what I am against is the BS that in
>>>>>> Australia we need rush into EV's as if they are going to save us
>>>>>> all, its just a huge scam.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> **You seem to imagine that:
>>>>>
>>>>> * The problem is not urgent. The planet it warming fast. If CO2
>>>>> levels reach approximately 500ppm, we are all fucked. NOTHING we
>>>>> do can save our civilisation. Not a damned thing.
>>>>
>>>> Depends on the way you view urgent, like I said our vehicle
>>>> emissions account for less than 0.5% of the worlds CO2 emissions,
>>>> if every car in Australia switched to EV's tomorrow it would make
>>>> bugger all difference to emissions whilst bankrupting the country,
>>>> it just doesn't make sense to rush around like headless chooks,
>>>> more speed less haste.
>>>> The sky is NOT falling Chicken Little.
>>>
>>> **I will say once more:
>>>
>>> EVERY SINGLE human on the planet must act to reduce emissions. That
>>> includes every Chinese citizen, every American and every Australian.
>>>
>>> No exceptions.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> * That Australia still makes cars. We don't. We have to buy what
>>>>> others build. Increasingly, that means EVs.
>>>>
>>>> Possibly but as recently as last night I read that Ford have
>>>> dropped the idea of all their vehicles being electric, they have
>>>> decided that the market for IC Mustangs is so strong they will
>>>> continue to make them, the decision was driven by customer demand.
>>>
>>> **And how many Mustangs are sold around the world, compared all the
>>> other Ford vehicles.
>>>
>>> Face it: Despite the enormous popularity of the Mustang, it is still
>>> a niche market. Then, of course, is the Mustang-E.
>>>
>>>> I also think that mostly because of the cost many people will just
>>>> hang onto older cars, mine are both 20yrs old and nothing wrong
>>>> with either of them, wife's car is 6yrs old and also unlikely to be
>>>> replaced anytime soon.
>>>
>>> **Sure. So will I. Until petrol becomes so expensive that it no
>>> longer makes any sense to drive a petrol powered vehicle. My next
>>> car will be an EV, or PHEV. No doubt about it.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> * EVs are not a scam.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> They are in that they are overly expensive,
>>>
>>> **A dual motor Model 3 beats the pants off a Ferrari. For around 25%
>>> of the price. How does that translate to "overly expensive" in your
>>> world?
>>
>>
>> you don't compare family cars to a Ferrari, lol! compared to
>> equivalent ICE cars EV's are overly expensive
>
> **OK. Compare the Model 3 to a Porsche. The Model 3 is still quicker.
> And cheaper.
>
>
>

On 10/10/2022 5:45 pm, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 10/10/2022 2:15 pm, Noddy wrote:

>> If you think the configuration of a test mule gives you any indication
>> of what a final product could possibly be like then you're kidding
>> yourself.
>
> **Not the issue. Storage is the problem. 10,000psi fuel tanks have to be
> strong and are, inevitably, quite heavy.

Storage tanks are not the issue here Trevor. They've been around since
the days of the Apollo space program, and they have been shown to be
quite easily used in automotive applications.

--
--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

On 10/10/2022 3:33 pm, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 10/10/2022 1:22 pm, Noddy wrote:

>> There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that every car manufacturer on
>> the planet has looked at electric vehicles from the perspective of
>> cashing in on a popular trend rather than out of any genuine sense of
>> being "green", and in that sense it's not the slightest bit different
>> to manufacturers like Mercedes Benz, Porsche, Ferrari ands Aston
>> Martin making SUV's. They don't make them because they want to. They
>> make them because they *sell*.
>
> **Ummm, there are a couple of other, teeny, tiny factors:
>
>
> https://www.gov.ca.gov/2022/08/25/california-enacts-world-leading-plan-to-achieve-100-percent-zero-emission-vehicles-by-2035-cut-pollution/
>
>
> https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/uk-electric-vehicle-infrastructure-strategy
>
>
> https://www.reuters.com/business/retail-consumer/eu-proposes-effective-ban-new-fossil-fuel-car-sales-2035-2021-07-14/
>
>
> https://news.mit.edu/2021/chinas-transition-electric-vehicles-0429
>
> https://www.reuters.com/business/environment/exclusive-japan-pushes-remove-zero-emission-vehicle-target-g7-statement-draft-2022-06-27/

>
> It's all about legislation in the big markets. Car manufacturers HAVE to
> build zero emission vehicles. Right now, that means BEVs.

Yeah, they *do* have to built them, but they're not limited to building
them exclusively, and any "legislation" that tries to impose such
restrictions is bound to cause more problems than it solves.

> Unless, of course, you want to buy the latest in Russian built cars. I'm
> pretty certain the Russians aren't interested in EVs. Good luck with
> your next Russian car. Those Ladas are legendary. In a really bad way.

What the fuck are you on? Seriously :)

>>
>> There is *also* no doubt in my mind that every manufacturer who made
>> statements a few years ago about "phasing out" internal combustion
>> engines by the end of the decade never had any genuine intention of
>> ever doing so, but rather were making the announcements purely to
>> pander to the environmental fever pitch that was circulating around
>> the globe at the time and now that the hysteria has dropped off
>> they'll go back to doing what they always intended to which is build
>> whatever vehicle generates the most unit sales and makes them the most
>> money.
>
> **They will build whatever makes them money, PROVIDED it meets the
> legislative criteria. Increasingly, that means low or zero emission
> vehicles.

Not today it doesn't, and not for some time.

>> Well, I've just ordered a new ute that will most likely see me out and
>> will be hanging onto my old cancer causing V8's as long as I possibly
>> can. The wife's Hyundai is 4 years old now, and given that she has at
>> least ten years of her working life left, and possibly more
>> considering how she's moving up the corporate ladder, she'll most
>> likely have a couple of new cars in that time, and possibly three.
>>
>> I can guarantee you as sure as I'm sitting here that none of them will
>> be electric :)
>
> **Unlikely. I will remind you once more: Australia no longer builds
> cars. We don't get to choose.

You're away with the fairies Trev. I guarantee you that we will not be
buying an electric vehicle, and I can *also* gaurantee you that EV's
will not be the only choice available for many years to come.

>>  From both an economic and total environmental perspective, EV's make
>> little sense.
>
> **Let's see:
>
> * EVs emit no CO2 when operating.

Their total footprint is fucking enormous however :)

> * EVs cost more, right now. That will change.

So you keep saying, and so it's not happening.

> * Charging EVs from your own Solar PV panels means free fuel forever. Nice.

Oh, yeah. What a fantastic idea. I wonder how many average Joe's will
have their car parked in their garage being charged by their solar
system while they're at work.

Not you, right? You'd need to actually *have* solar to do that. Your
trees won't do shit :)

--
--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

On 9/10/2022 7:31 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 8/10/2022 4:02 pm, Xeno wrote:
>> On 8/10/2022 3:48 pm, Clocky wrote:
>>> On 8/10/2022 12:13 pm, yosemite sam wrote:
>>>>
>>>> https://finance.yahoo.com/news/waterlogged-electric-cars-imploding-florida-172415203.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://nypost.com/2022/10/06/electric-vehicles-catching-fire-in-florida-after-hurricane-ian/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> "Teslas" plural? That looks to be the same car in those 'stories'.
>>
>> Yep, looks like one car. Teslas do have a habit of incinerating
>> themselves and it doesn't always require a dunking. A decent biff on
>> the highway will do it.
>>>
>>> What are the actual numbers or is this just anti-EV bullshit?
>>
>> 1, so far.
>>
>> FWIW, EVs will not be taking over the world. At least not until a new
>> battery compound is tested and found to work much more efficaciously
>> than *Lithium*.
>>
>>
>
> **Points. That new battery compound already exits - Aluminium.
>
> Points:
>
> * Al-Ion batteries can pack 3 times the energy into the same space as a
> Li-Ion battery.
> * Aluminium is cheaper, more plentiful and more recyclable than Lithium.
> * Aluminium does not catch fire when exposed to water.
> * There are numerous other advantages to Al-Ion batteries.
>
> And yes, none are marketable yet. It took 23 years from concept to mass
> production to bring Li-Ion batteries to market. Al-Ion batteries should
> take less time, due to the huge investments made by many organisations.

There are a lot of different approaches but none, so far, have come
without some show stopping problem.

> One, very promising, system is being developed right here in Australia:
>
> https://graphenemg.com/energy-storage-solutions/aluminum-ion-battery/
>
> However, whilst BEVs certainly have their place (thanks, in no small
> part to Australia's 3rd largest car importer - Tesla), the real action
> will be around H2 fuel cell vehicles. Japan is embracing H2 fuel cell
> technology is a very big way.
>
>

On 9/10/2022 9:50 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 9/10/2022 10:02 am, yosemite sam wrote:
>> Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>> On 8/10/2022 4:02 pm, Xeno wrote:
>>>> On 8/10/2022 3:48 pm, Clocky wrote:
>>>>> On 8/10/2022 12:13 pm, yosemite sam wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://finance.yahoo.com/news/waterlogged-electric-cars-imploding-florida-172415203.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://nypost.com/2022/10/06/electric-vehicles-catching-fire-in-florida-after-hurricane-ian/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Teslas" plural? That looks to be the same car in those 'stories'.
>>>>
>>>> Yep, looks like one car. Teslas do have a habit of incinerating
>>>> themselves and it doesn't always require a dunking. A decent biff on
>>>> the highway will do it.
>>>>>
>>>>> What are the actual numbers or is this just anti-EV bullshit?
>>>>
>>>> 1, so far.
>>>>
>>>> FWIW, EVs will not be taking over the world. At least not until a
>>>> new battery compound is tested and found to work much more
>>>> efficaciously than *Lithium*.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> **Points. That new battery compound already exits - Aluminium.
>>>
>>> Points:
>>>
>>> * Al-Ion batteries can pack 3 times the energy into the same space as
>>> a Li-Ion battery.
>>> * Aluminium is cheaper, more plentiful and more recyclable than Lithium.
>>> * Aluminium does not catch fire when exposed to water.
>>> * There are numerous other advantages to Al-Ion batteries.
>>
>> but current EV's wont be able to use them since all have
>> non-replaceable batteries. during most of my lifetime electric cars
>> have been part of science fiction, now they're reality.
>
> **Bullshit. There is absolutely no reason why different chemistry
> batteries cannot be used in existing EVs. The real catch is with the
> charging system. And the monitoring systems within the car. None of
> which presents major problems.
>
>>
>>>
>>> And yes, none are marketable yet. It took 23 years from concept to
>>> mass production to bring Li-Ion batteries to market. Al-Ion batteries
>>> should take less time, due to the huge investments made by many
>>> organisations.
>>>
>>> One, very promising, system is being developed right here in Australia:
>>>
>>> https://graphenemg.com/energy-storage-solutions/aluminum-ion-battery/
>>>
>>> However, whilst BEVs certainly have their place (thanks, in no small
>>> part to Australia's 3rd largest car importer - Tesla),
>>
>>
>> we hear a lot about how the pandemic destroyed many business and
>> families financially, and how ppl are struggling with the cost of
>> living and rising interest rates, but considering the number of Teslas
>> I see on the road there are a lot of ppl with plenty of money in Oz
>
> **Sure. People weren't spending their money on overseas holidays.

Jeeze, what sort of holidays do you go on? You can get a whole lot of
holiday for the price of a Tesla.

On 9/10/2022 1:06 pm, Xeno wrote:
> On 9/10/2022 12:06 pm, Clocky wrote:
>> On 9/10/2022 7:02 am, yosemite sam wrote:
>>> Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>> On 8/10/2022 4:02 pm, Xeno wrote:
>>>>> On 8/10/2022 3:48 pm, Clocky wrote:
>>>>>> On 8/10/2022 12:13 pm, yosemite sam wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://finance.yahoo.com/news/waterlogged-electric-cars-imploding-florida-172415203.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://nypost.com/2022/10/06/electric-vehicles-catching-fire-in-florida-after-hurricane-ian/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Teslas" plural? That looks to be the same car in those 'stories'.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yep, looks like one car. Teslas do have a habit of incinerating
>>>>> themselves and it doesn't always require a dunking. A decent biff
>>>>> on the highway will do it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What are the actual numbers or is this just anti-EV bullshit?
>>>>>
>>>>> 1, so far.
>>>>>
>>>>> FWIW, EVs will not be taking over the world. At least not until a
>>>>> new battery compound is tested and found to work much more
>>>>> efficaciously than *Lithium*.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> **Points. That new battery compound already exits - Aluminium.
>>>>
>>>> Points:
>>>>
>>>> * Al-Ion batteries can pack 3 times the energy into the same space
>>>> as a Li-Ion battery.
>>>> * Aluminium is cheaper, more plentiful and more recyclable than
>>>> Lithium.
>>>> * Aluminium does not catch fire when exposed to water.
>>>> * There are numerous other advantages to Al-Ion batteries.
>>>
>>> but current EV's wont be able to use them since all have
>>> non-replaceable batteries. during most of my lifetime electric cars
>>> have been part of science fiction, now they're reality.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> And yes, none are marketable yet. It took 23 years from concept to
>>>> mass production to bring Li-Ion batteries to market. Al-Ion
>>>> batteries should take less time, due to the huge investments made by
>>>> many organisations.
>>>>
>>>> One, very promising, system is being developed right here in Australia:
>>>>
>>>> https://graphenemg.com/energy-storage-solutions/aluminum-ion-battery/
>>>>
>>>> However, whilst BEVs certainly have their place (thanks, in no small
>>>> part to Australia's 3rd largest car importer - Tesla),
>>>
>>>
>>> we hear a lot about how the pandemic destroyed many business and
>>> families financially, and how ppl are struggling with the cost of
>>> living and rising interest rates, but considering the number of
>>> Teslas I see on the road there are a lot of ppl with plenty of money
>>> in Oz
>>>
>>>> the real action will be around H2 fuel cell vehicles. Japan is
>>>> embracing H2 fuel cell technology is a very big way.
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>> Hydrogen has plenty of issues to overcome also.
>>
>>
> Not the least of which is the fact that most hydrogen produced in
> Australia today uses *natural gas* as its *feedstock*. Not very green!
>
> The only way hydrogen can be green in Australia is to use *solar* or
> *wind* power to electrolyse water into H2 and O. That will require HUGE
> investment costs. See any of that on the horizon?
>
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-10-11/qld-hydrogen-capacity-explainer-hydrogen-green-twiggy/100528046

On 9/10/2022 6:34 pm, Clocky wrote:
> On 9/10/2022 11:07 am, Xeno wrote:
>> On 9/10/2022 12:09 pm, Clocky wrote:
>>> On 9/10/2022 8:01 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>> On 9/10/2022 10:06 am, Noddy wrote:
>>>>> On 9/10/2022 8:31 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> **Points. That new battery compound already exits - Aluminium.
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh, great. Where would we go to buy one?
>>>>>
>>>>>> Points:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * Al-Ion batteries can pack 3 times the energy into the same space
>>>>>> as a Li-Ion battery.
>>>>>> * Aluminium is cheaper, more plentiful and more recyclable than
>>>>>> Lithium.
>>>>>> * Aluminium does not catch fire when exposed to water.
>>>>>> * There are numerous other advantages to Al-Ion batteries.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And yes, none are marketable yet. It took 23 years from concept to
>>>>>> mass production to bring Li-Ion batteries to market. Al-Ion
>>>>>> batteries should take less time, due to the huge investments made
>>>>>> by many organisations.
>>>>>
>>>>> You know Trev, you've been singing the praises of Al-Ion battery
>>>>> technology and how it's going to change the world for some time
>>>>> now, like 5 years or more, yet in spite of all that praise they
>>>>> *still* haven't hit the market as a usable product.
>>>>
>>>> **TWENTY THREE YEARS is the time it took for Li-Ion batteries to
>>>> reach marketing stage.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Why do you think that is?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> **All the problems have not yet been solved. Yet.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> One, very promising, system is being developed right here in
>>>>>> Australia:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://graphenemg.com/energy-storage-solutions/aluminum-ion-battery/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> However, whilst BEVs certainly have their place (thanks, in no
>>>>>> small part to Australia's 3rd largest car importer - Tesla),
>>>>>
>>>>> Third largest car importer? Yeah, I don't think so....
>>>>
>>>> ** https://www.canstarblue.com.au/vehicles/top-selling-cars/
>>>>
>>>> Tesla Model Y - #3
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> the real action will be around H2 fuel cell vehicles. Japan is
>>>>> embracing H2 fuel cell
>>>>>> technology is a very big way.
>>>>>
>>>>> Funny. I can recall saying this very thing some time ago and you
>>>>> poo-pooed the idea claiming that fuel cell technology wasn't the
>>>>> answer thanks to the difficultly and cost associated with setting
>>>>> up the refuelling network.
>>>>
>>>> **Nope. I told you that operating an INTERNAL COMBUSTION engine on
>>>> H2 was dumb. REALLY dumb. I also told you that there was a grand
>>>> total of ONE H2 fuel cell refuelling stations across Australia.
>>>> OTOH, as of September 2021, there were more than 3,000 public
>>>> chargers, 470 Superchargers and millions of households where EVs
>>>> could charge their batteries. H2 fuel cell technology has a long way
>>>> to go in Australia to catch up with BEV chargers.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I *still* maintain the belief that battery and hybrid electric cars
>>>>> are nothing other than a novelty, and fuel cell will eventually
>>>>> become the dominant zero emission standard.
>>>>
>>>> **Hybrid cars will dominate the market, along with BEVs in the near
>>>> term. Hybrids make a great deal of sense for many Australians. H2
>>>> fuel cell vehicles may or may not succeed. We need a lot more
>>>> infrastructure. A LOT MORE. Certainly, in Japan, H2 fuel cell EVs
>>>> will likely be dominant.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Japan is irrelevant. There is a lot that Japan does that makes no
>>> sense to anyone except the Japanese.
>>>
>> Yep, it's a unique, if not niche, market for sure.
>>
>
> Not just market, the culture in general is pretty fucked up in what they
> find normal and acceptable.
>
Ever been there?

On 10/10/2022 3:53 pm, keithr0 wrote:
> On 9/10/2022 6:34 pm, Clocky wrote:
>> On 9/10/2022 11:07 am, Xeno wrote:
>>> On 9/10/2022 12:09 pm, Clocky wrote:
>>>> On 9/10/2022 8:01 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>> On 9/10/2022 10:06 am, Noddy wrote:
>>>>>> On 9/10/2022 8:31 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> **Points. That new battery compound already exits - Aluminium.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Oh, great. Where would we go to buy one?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Points:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> * Al-Ion batteries can pack 3 times the energy into the same
>>>>>>> space as a Li-Ion battery.
>>>>>>> * Aluminium is cheaper, more plentiful and more recyclable than
>>>>>>> Lithium.
>>>>>>> * Aluminium does not catch fire when exposed to water.
>>>>>>> * There are numerous other advantages to Al-Ion batteries.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And yes, none are marketable yet. It took 23 years from concept
>>>>>>> to mass production to bring Li-Ion batteries to market. Al-Ion
>>>>>>> batteries should take less time, due to the huge investments made
>>>>>>> by many organisations.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You know Trev, you've been singing the praises of Al-Ion battery
>>>>>> technology and how it's going to change the world for some time
>>>>>> now, like 5 years or more, yet in spite of all that praise they
>>>>>> *still* haven't hit the market as a usable product.
>>>>>
>>>>> **TWENTY THREE YEARS is the time it took for Li-Ion batteries to
>>>>> reach marketing stage.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why do you think that is?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> **All the problems have not yet been solved. Yet.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> One, very promising, system is being developed right here in
>>>>>>> Australia:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://graphenemg.com/energy-storage-solutions/aluminum-ion-battery/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> However, whilst BEVs certainly have their place (thanks, in no
>>>>>>> small part to Australia's 3rd largest car importer - Tesla),
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Third largest car importer? Yeah, I don't think so....
>>>>>
>>>>> ** https://www.canstarblue.com.au/vehicles/top-selling-cars/
>>>>>
>>>>> Tesla Model Y - #3
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> the real action will be around H2 fuel cell vehicles. Japan is
>>>>>> embracing H2 fuel cell
>>>>>>> technology is a very big way.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Funny. I can recall saying this very thing some time ago and you
>>>>>> poo-pooed the idea claiming that fuel cell technology wasn't the
>>>>>> answer thanks to the difficultly and cost associated with setting
>>>>>> up the refuelling network.
>>>>>
>>>>> **Nope. I told you that operating an INTERNAL COMBUSTION engine on
>>>>> H2 was dumb. REALLY dumb. I also told you that there was a grand
>>>>> total of ONE H2 fuel cell refuelling stations across Australia.
>>>>> OTOH, as of September 2021, there were more than 3,000 public
>>>>> chargers, 470 Superchargers and millions of households where EVs
>>>>> could charge their batteries. H2 fuel cell technology has a long
>>>>> way to go in Australia to catch up with BEV chargers.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I *still* maintain the belief that battery and hybrid electric
>>>>>> cars are nothing other than a novelty, and fuel cell will
>>>>>> eventually become the dominant zero emission standard.
>>>>>
>>>>> **Hybrid cars will dominate the market, along with BEVs in the near
>>>>> term. Hybrids make a great deal of sense for many Australians. H2
>>>>> fuel cell vehicles may or may not succeed. We need a lot more
>>>>> infrastructure. A LOT MORE. Certainly, in Japan, H2 fuel cell EVs
>>>>> will likely be dominant.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Japan is irrelevant. There is a lot that Japan does that makes no
>>>> sense to anyone except the Japanese.
>>>>
>>> Yep, it's a unique, if not niche, market for sure.
>>>
>>
>> Not just market, the culture in general is pretty fucked up in what
>> they find normal and acceptable.
>>
> Ever been there?

No, and just like you don't have to have been an heroine addict to know
it's a bad idea you can forget what you were going to say next. I do
know someone who spent a significant amount of time there and not as a
tourist. You don't have to scratch far under the surface.

--
keith on the 7 Oct 2021 wrote;
"He asserts that the claim is true, so, if
it is unproven, he is lying."

On 10/10/2022 6:27 pm, Noddy wrote:
> On 10/10/2022 5:45 pm, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> On 10/10/2022 2:15 pm, Noddy wrote:
>
>>> If you think the configuration of a test mule gives you any
>>> indication of what a final product could possibly be like then you're
>>> kidding yourself.
>>
>> **Not the issue. Storage is the problem. 10,000psi fuel tanks have to
>> be strong and are, inevitably, quite heavy.
>
> Storage tanks are not the issue here Trevor. They've been around since
> the days of the Apollo space program, and they have been shown to be
> quite easily used in automotive applications.

The issue isn't the tanks so much as the *energy density* of H2. You
need more and/or larger tanks.

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On 10/10/2022 6:51 pm, keithr0 wrote:
> On 9/10/2022 1:06 pm, Xeno wrote:
>> On 9/10/2022 12:06 pm, Clocky wrote:
>>> On 9/10/2022 7:02 am, yosemite sam wrote:
>>>> Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>> On 8/10/2022 4:02 pm, Xeno wrote:
>>>>>> On 8/10/2022 3:48 pm, Clocky wrote:
>>>>>>> On 8/10/2022 12:13 pm, yosemite sam wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://finance.yahoo.com/news/waterlogged-electric-cars-imploding-florida-172415203.html
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://nypost.com/2022/10/06/electric-vehicles-catching-fire-in-florida-after-hurricane-ian/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Teslas" plural? That looks to be the same car in those 'stories'.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yep, looks like one car. Teslas do have a habit of incinerating
>>>>>> themselves and it doesn't always require a dunking. A decent biff
>>>>>> on the highway will do it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What are the actual numbers or is this just anti-EV bullshit?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1, so far.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> FWIW, EVs will not be taking over the world. At least not until a
>>>>>> new battery compound is tested and found to work much more
>>>>>> efficaciously than *Lithium*.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> **Points. That new battery compound already exits - Aluminium.
>>>>>
>>>>> Points:
>>>>>
>>>>> * Al-Ion batteries can pack 3 times the energy into the same space
>>>>> as a Li-Ion battery.
>>>>> * Aluminium is cheaper, more plentiful and more recyclable than
>>>>> Lithium.
>>>>> * Aluminium does not catch fire when exposed to water.
>>>>> * There are numerous other advantages to Al-Ion batteries.
>>>>
>>>> but current EV's wont be able to use them since all have
>>>> non-replaceable batteries. during most of my lifetime electric cars
>>>> have been part of science fiction, now they're reality.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> And yes, none are marketable yet. It took 23 years from concept to
>>>>> mass production to bring Li-Ion batteries to market. Al-Ion
>>>>> batteries should take less time, due to the huge investments made
>>>>> by many organisations.
>>>>>
>>>>> One, very promising, system is being developed right here in
>>>>> Australia:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://graphenemg.com/energy-storage-solutions/aluminum-ion-battery/
>>>>>
>>>>> However, whilst BEVs certainly have their place (thanks, in no
>>>>> small part to Australia's 3rd largest car importer - Tesla),
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> we hear a lot about how the pandemic destroyed many business and
>>>> families financially, and how ppl are struggling with the cost of
>>>> living and rising interest rates, but considering the number of
>>>> Teslas I see on the road there are a lot of ppl with plenty of money
>>>> in Oz
>>>>
>>>>> the real action will be around H2 fuel cell vehicles. Japan is
>>>>> embracing H2 fuel cell technology is a very big way.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>> Hydrogen has plenty of issues to overcome also.
>>>
>>>
>> Not the least of which is the fact that most hydrogen produced in
>> Australia today uses *natural gas* as its *feedstock*. Not very green!
>>
>> The only way hydrogen can be green in Australia is to use *solar* or
>> *wind* power to electrolyse water into H2 and O. That will require
>> HUGE investment costs. See any of that on the horizon?
>>
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-10-11/qld-hydrogen-capacity-explainer-hydrogen-green-twiggy/100528046
>
For *export*. Same as projects on the west coast.

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On 10/10/2022 6:35 pm, Clocky wrote:
> On 10/10/2022 3:53 pm, keithr0 wrote:
>> On 9/10/2022 6:34 pm, Clocky wrote:
>>> On 9/10/2022 11:07 am, Xeno wrote:
>>>> On 9/10/2022 12:09 pm, Clocky wrote:
>>>>> On 9/10/2022 8:01 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>>> On 9/10/2022 10:06 am, Noddy wrote:
>>>>>>> On 9/10/2022 8:31 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> **Points. That new battery compound already exits - Aluminium.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Oh, great. Where would we go to buy one?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Points:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> * Al-Ion batteries can pack 3 times the energy into the same
>>>>>>>> space as a Li-Ion battery.
>>>>>>>> * Aluminium is cheaper, more plentiful and more recyclable than
>>>>>>>> Lithium.
>>>>>>>> * Aluminium does not catch fire when exposed to water.
>>>>>>>> * There are numerous other advantages to Al-Ion batteries.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And yes, none are marketable yet. It took 23 years from concept
>>>>>>>> to mass production to bring Li-Ion batteries to market. Al-Ion
>>>>>>>> batteries should take less time, due to the huge investments
>>>>>>>> made by many organisations.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You know Trev, you've been singing the praises of Al-Ion battery
>>>>>>> technology and how it's going to change the world for some time
>>>>>>> now, like 5 years or more, yet in spite of all that praise they
>>>>>>> *still* haven't hit the market as a usable product.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> **TWENTY THREE YEARS is the time it took for Li-Ion batteries to
>>>>>> reach marketing stage.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why do you think that is?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> **All the problems have not yet been solved. Yet.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> One, very promising, system is being developed right here in
>>>>>>>> Australia:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://graphenemg.com/energy-storage-solutions/aluminum-ion-battery/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> However, whilst BEVs certainly have their place (thanks, in no
>>>>>>>> small part to Australia's 3rd largest car importer - Tesla),
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Third largest car importer? Yeah, I don't think so....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ** https://www.canstarblue.com.au/vehicles/top-selling-cars/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tesla Model Y - #3
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> the real action will be around H2 fuel cell vehicles. Japan is
>>>>>>> embracing H2 fuel cell
>>>>>>>> technology is a very big way.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Funny. I can recall saying this very thing some time ago and you
>>>>>>> poo-pooed the idea claiming that fuel cell technology wasn't the
>>>>>>> answer thanks to the difficultly and cost associated with setting
>>>>>>> up the refuelling network.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> **Nope. I told you that operating an INTERNAL COMBUSTION engine on
>>>>>> H2 was dumb. REALLY dumb. I also told you that there was a grand
>>>>>> total of ONE H2 fuel cell refuelling stations across Australia.
>>>>>> OTOH, as of September 2021, there were more than 3,000 public
>>>>>> chargers, 470 Superchargers and millions of households where EVs
>>>>>> could charge their batteries. H2 fuel cell technology has a long
>>>>>> way to go in Australia to catch up with BEV chargers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I *still* maintain the belief that battery and hybrid electric
>>>>>>> cars are nothing other than a novelty, and fuel cell will
>>>>>>> eventually become the dominant zero emission standard.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> **Hybrid cars will dominate the market, along with BEVs in the
>>>>>> near term. Hybrids make a great deal of sense for many
>>>>>> Australians. H2 fuel cell vehicles may or may not succeed. We need
>>>>>> a lot more infrastructure. A LOT MORE. Certainly, in Japan, H2
>>>>>> fuel cell EVs will likely be dominant.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Japan is irrelevant. There is a lot that Japan does that makes no
>>>>> sense to anyone except the Japanese.
>>>>>
>>>> Yep, it's a unique, if not niche, market for sure.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Not just market, the culture in general is pretty fucked up in what
>>> they find normal and acceptable.
>>>
>> Ever been there?
>
> No, and just like you don't have to have been an heroine addict to know
> it's a bad idea you can forget what you were going to say next. I do
> know someone who spent a significant amount of time there and not as a
> tourist. You don't have to scratch far under the surface.

So have I for periods of up to 10 weeks at a time and not as a tourist
either. On the whole a pleasant place with friendly people, certainly no
worse than most other places.

On 10/10/2022 5:34 pm, Noddy wrote:
> On 10/10/2022 3:33 pm, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> On 10/10/2022 1:22 pm, Noddy wrote:
>
>>> There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that every car manufacturer
>>> on the planet has looked at electric vehicles from the perspective of
>>> cashing in on a popular trend rather than out of any genuine sense of
>>> being "green", and in that sense it's not the slightest bit different
>>> to manufacturers like Mercedes Benz, Porsche, Ferrari ands Aston
>>> Martin making SUV's. They don't make them because they want to. They
>>> make them because they *sell*.
>>
>> **Ummm, there are a couple of other, teeny, tiny factors:
>>
>>
>> https://www.gov.ca.gov/2022/08/25/california-enacts-world-leading-plan-to-achieve-100-percent-zero-emission-vehicles-by-2035-cut-pollution/
>>
>>
>> https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/uk-electric-vehicle-infrastructure-strategy
>>
>>
>> https://www.reuters.com/business/retail-consumer/eu-proposes-effective-ban-new-fossil-fuel-car-sales-2035-2021-07-14/
>>
>>
>> https://news.mit.edu/2021/chinas-transition-electric-vehicles-0429
>>
>> https://www.reuters.com/business/environment/exclusive-japan-pushes-remove-zero-emission-vehicle-target-g7-statement-draft-2022-06-27/
>
>
>>
>> It's all about legislation in the big markets. Car manufacturers HAVE
>> to build zero emission vehicles. Right now, that means BEVs.
>
> Yeah, they *do* have to built them, but they're not limited to building
> them exclusively, and any "legislation" that tries to impose such
> restrictions is bound to cause more problems than it solves.
>
>> Unless, of course, you want to buy the latest in Russian built cars.
>> I'm pretty certain the Russians aren't interested in EVs. Good luck
>> with your next Russian car. Those Ladas are legendary. In a really bad
>> way.
>
> What the fuck are you on? Seriously :)
>
>>>
>>> There is *also* no doubt in my mind that every manufacturer who made
>>> statements a few years ago about "phasing out" internal combustion
>>> engines by the end of the decade never had any genuine intention of
>>> ever doing so, but rather were making the announcements purely to
>>> pander to the environmental fever pitch that was circulating around
>>> the globe at the time and now that the hysteria has dropped off
>>> they'll go back to doing what they always intended to which is build
>>> whatever vehicle generates the most unit sales and makes them the
>>> most money.
>>
>> **They will build whatever makes them money, PROVIDED it meets the
>> legislative criteria. Increasingly, that means low or zero emission
>> vehicles.
>
> Not today it doesn't, and not for some time.
>
>>> Well, I've just ordered a new ute that will most likely see me out
>>> and will be hanging onto my old cancer causing V8's as long as I
>>> possibly can. The wife's Hyundai is 4 years old now, and given that
>>> she has at least ten years of her working life left, and possibly
>>> more considering how she's moving up the corporate ladder, she'll
>>> most likely have a couple of new cars in that time, and possibly three.
>>>
>>> I can guarantee you as sure as I'm sitting here that none of them
>>> will be electric :)
>>
>> **Unlikely. I will remind you once more: Australia no longer builds
>> cars. We don't get to choose.
>
> You're away with the fairies Trev. I guarantee you that we will not be
> buying an electric vehicle, and I can *also* gaurantee you that EV's
> will not be the only choice available for many years to come.
>
>>>  From both an economic and total environmental perspective, EV's make
>>> little sense.
>>
>> **Let's see:
>>
>> * EVs emit no CO2 when operating.
>
> Their total footprint is fucking enormous however :)
>
>> * EVs cost more, right now. That will change.
>
> So you keep saying, and so it's not happening.
>
>> * Charging EVs from your own Solar PV panels means free fuel forever.
>> Nice.
>
> Oh, yeah. What a fantastic idea. I wonder how many average Joe's will
> have their car parked in their garage being charged by their solar
> system while they're at work.
>
> Not you, right? You'd need to actually *have* solar to do that. Your
> trees won't do shit :)
>
>
From recent experience, there are significant proportions of electric
cars in Holland (oops sorry The Netherlands) and Norway. In the former
case they are making so much power from wind and solar that, at times,
they actually pay users to use it, in the later, the government
subsidises the purchase price (ironically from sales of oil). In both
cases the cost of petrol at 2.25 euros (about $3.45) per litre also has
some bearing..

Not so many in Iceland and the UK though, but probably more than here.

On 10/10/2022 5:07 pm, yosemite sam wrote:
> Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> On 10/10/2022 4:43 pm, yosemite sam wrote:
>>> Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>> On 10/10/2022 10:56 am, Daryl wrote:
>>>>> On 10/10/2022 10:04 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>>> On 10/10/2022 9:37 am, Daryl wrote:
>>>>>>> On 10/10/2022 8:46 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 9/10/2022 1:21 pm, Daryl wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 9/10/2022 12:31 pm, Noddy wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 9/10/2022 11:01 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/10/2022 10:06 am, Noddy wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> You know Trev, you've been singing the praises of Al-Ion
>>>>>>>>>>>> battery technology and how it's going to change the world
>>>>>>>>>>>> for some time now, like 5 years or more, yet in spite of all
>>>>>>>>>>>> that praise they *still* haven't hit the market as a usable
>>>>>>>>>>>> product.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> **TWENTY THREE YEARS is the time it took for Li-Ion batteries
>>>>>>>>>>> to reach marketing stage.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yeah, I understood you the first time. But you continually
>>>>>>>>>> bleat about Al-Ion batteries as if they're here ready to solve
>>>>>>>>>> the world's problems now, and that's *not* the reality.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Is it Trev?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Why do you think that is?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> **All the problems have not yet been solved. Yet.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yeah, that's right. It's kinda like claiming that flying cars
>>>>>>>>>> are fantastic. Or, at least they *will* be when someone gets
>>>>>>>>>> around to making them work :)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> However, whilst BEVs certainly have their place (thanks, in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> no small part to Australia's 3rd largest car importer -
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tesla),
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Third largest car importer? Yeah, I don't think so....
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ** https://www.canstarblue.com.au/vehicles/top-selling-cars/
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Tesla Model Y - #3
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 3rd Most popular individual *model*, Trevor. Not 3rd largest
>>>>>>>>>> car importer based on total unit sales. MG sold more vehicles
>>>>>>>>>> in Australia in 2021 than Tesla, and according to this site
>>>>>>>>>> here Tesla doesn't even make the top ten:
>>>>>>>>>>   >
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.savings.com.au/car-loans/biggest-car-manufacturers-brands-australia
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Electric vehicles accounted for a paltry 1.7% of new car sales
>>>>>>>>>> in Australia in 2021, which is an increase of a whopping 230%
>>>>>>>>>> on the previous year, but it is *still* nothing but "niche" in
>>>>>>>>>> the grand scheme.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Funny. I can recall saying this very thing some time ago and
>>>>>>>>>>>> you poo-pooed the idea claiming that fuel cell technology
>>>>>>>>>>>> wasn't the answer thanks to the difficultly and cost
>>>>>>>>>>>> associated with setting up the refuelling network.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> **Nope. I told you that operating an INTERNAL COMBUSTION
>>>>>>>>>>> engine on H2 was dumb. REALLY dumb.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That was one comment you made, but that's not what I'm talking
>>>>>>>>>> about.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I also told you that there was a grand total of ONE H2 fuel
>>>>>>>>>>> cell refuelling stations across Australia. OTOH, as of
>>>>>>>>>>> September 2021, there were more than 3,000 public chargers,
>>>>>>>>>>> 470 Superchargers and millions of households where EVs could
>>>>>>>>>>> charge their batteries. H2 fuel cell technology has a long
>>>>>>>>>>> way to go in Australia to catch up with BEV chargers.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Which is precisely why you claimed that fuel cells would never
>>>>>>>>>> take off. Your view seems to have changed somewhat in recent
>>>>>>>>>> times.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I *still* maintain the belief that battery and hybrid
>>>>>>>>>>>> electric cars are nothing other than a novelty, and fuel
>>>>>>>>>>>> cell will eventually become the dominant zero emission
>>>>>>>>>>>> standard.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> **Hybrid cars will dominate the market, along with BEVs in
>>>>>>>>>>> the near term.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I doubt it. They're readily available now, and while they're
>>>>>>>>>> popularity is increasing their overall sales figures are
>>>>>>>>>> *remarkably* low.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>   Hybrids make a great deal of sense for many Australians. H2
>>>>>>>>>> fuel
>>>>>>>>>>> cell vehicles may or may not succeed. We need a lot more
>>>>>>>>>>> infrastructure. A LOT MORE. Certainly, in Japan, H2 fuel cell
>>>>>>>>>>> EVs will likely be dominant.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The exact same thing can be said of plug in EV's. We don't
>>>>>>>>>> have the grid capacity to support them in anything other than
>>>>>>>>>> small numbers, and if we all switched to them tomorrow the
>>>>>>>>>> country would implode.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The problem this country faces is that we're fucked *either*
>>>>>>>>>> way, as we don't have the infrastructure in place to support
>>>>>>>>>> *any* zero emissions vehicles in large numbers which makes
>>>>>>>>>> ridiculous policies from lunatics like The Greens look even
>>>>>>>>>> *more* mentally challenged.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Even more so when Australia's total contribution to the worlds
>>>>>>>>> CO2 emissions is about 1.2% and emissions from private vehicles
>>>>>>>>> accounts for about 10% of that 1.2% so if we all switched to
>>>>>>>>> zero emission vehicles tomorrow it wouldn't make any difference.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> **EVERY SINGLE human on the planet needs to work to reduce CO2
>>>>>>>> emissions. That includes every single Chinese, American and
>>>>>>>> Australia citizens.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No excuses.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm not against making an effort to reduce emissions and that has
>>>>>>> already happened over time, what I am against is the BS that in
>>>>>>> Australia we need rush into EV's as if they are going to save us
>>>>>>> all, its just a huge scam.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> **You seem to imagine that:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * The problem is not urgent. The planet it warming fast. If CO2
>>>>>> levels reach approximately 500ppm, we are all fucked. NOTHING we
>>>>>> do can save our civilisation. Not a damned thing.
>>>>>
>>>>> Depends on the way you view urgent, like I said our vehicle
>>>>> emissions account for less than 0.5% of the worlds CO2 emissions,
>>>>> if every car in Australia switched to EV's tomorrow it would make
>>>>> bugger all difference to emissions whilst bankrupting the country,
>>>>> it just doesn't make sense to rush around like headless chooks,
>>>>> more speed less haste.
>>>>> The sky is NOT falling Chicken Little.
>>>>
>>>> **I will say once more:
>>>>
>>>> EVERY SINGLE human on the planet must act to reduce emissions. That
>>>> includes every Chinese citizen, every American and every Australian.
>>>>
>>>> No exceptions.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> * That Australia still makes cars. We don't. We have to buy what
>>>>>> others build. Increasingly, that means EVs.
>>>>>
>>>>> Possibly but as recently as last night I read that Ford have
>>>>> dropped the idea of all their vehicles being electric, they have
>>>>> decided that the market for IC Mustangs is so strong they will
>>>>> continue to make them, the decision was driven by customer demand.
>>>>
>>>> **And how many Mustangs are sold around the world, compared all the
>>>> other Ford vehicles.
>>>>
>>>> Face it: Despite the enormous popularity of the Mustang, it is still
>>>> a niche market. Then, of course, is the Mustang-E.
>>>>
>>>>> I also think that mostly because of the cost many people will just
>>>>> hang onto older cars, mine are both 20yrs old and nothing wrong
>>>>> with either of them, wife's car is 6yrs old and also unlikely to be
>>>>> replaced anytime soon.
>>>>
>>>> **Sure. So will I. Until petrol becomes so expensive that it no
>>>> longer makes any sense to drive a petrol powered vehicle. My next
>>>> car will be an EV, or PHEV. No doubt about it.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> * EVs are not a scam.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> They are in that they are overly expensive,
>>>>
>>>> **A dual motor Model 3 beats the pants off a Ferrari. For around 25%
>>>> of the price. How does that translate to "overly expensive" in your
>>>> world?
>>>
>>>
>>> you don't compare family cars to a Ferrari, lol! compared to
>>> equivalent ICE cars EV's are overly expensive
>>
>> **OK. Compare the Model 3 to a Porsche. The Model 3 is still quicker.
>> And cheaper.
>>
>>
>>
>
> still an unfair comparison. the Model 3 is 4 door sedan. ICE 4 door
> sedans can be had for half the price of a Tesla 3.
>
So which model ICE 4 door is comparable?

On 10/10/2022 3:43 pm, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 10/10/2022 11:13 am, Clocky wrote:
>> On 10/10/2022 3:06 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>> On 9/10/2022 7:31 pm, Clocky wrote:
>>>> On 9/10/2022 8:54 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>> On 9/10/2022 11:28 am, yosemite sam wrote:
>>>>>> Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>> On 9/10/2022 10:02 am, yosemite sam wrote:
>>>>>>>> Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 8/10/2022 4:02 pm, Xeno wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 8/10/2022 3:48 pm, Clocky wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/10/2022 12:13 pm, yosemite sam wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://finance.yahoo.com/news/waterlogged-electric-cars-imploding-florida-172415203.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://nypost.com/2022/10/06/electric-vehicles-catching-fire-in-florida-after-hurricane-ian/
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "Teslas" plural? That looks to be the same car in those
>>>>>>>>>>> 'stories'.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yep, looks like one car. Teslas do have a habit of
>>>>>>>>>> incinerating themselves and it doesn't always require a
>>>>>>>>>> dunking. A decent biff on the highway will do it.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> What are the actual numbers or is this just anti-EV bullshit?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 1, so far.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> FWIW, EVs will not be taking over the world. At least not
>>>>>>>>>> until a new battery compound is tested and found to work much
>>>>>>>>>> more efficaciously than *Lithium*.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> **Points. That new battery compound already exits - Aluminium.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Points:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> * Al-Ion batteries can pack 3 times the energy into the same
>>>>>>>>> space as a Li-Ion battery.
>>>>>>>>> * Aluminium is cheaper, more plentiful and more recyclable than
>>>>>>>>> Lithium.
>>>>>>>>> * Aluminium does not catch fire when exposed to water.
>>>>>>>>> * There are numerous other advantages to Al-Ion batteries.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> but current EV's wont be able to use them since all have
>>>>>>>> non-replaceable batteries. during most of my lifetime electric
>>>>>>>> cars have been part of science fiction, now they're reality.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> **Bullshit.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> so which EV's have replaceable batteries? that would be none afaik.
>>>>>
>>>>> **ALL Teslas have replaceable batteries. I would expect that all
>>>>> the others do as well. Same as Toyota hybrids. Their batteries are
>>>>> replaceable too.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> They have replaceable packs but not replaceable cells. It won't be
>>>> economically viable to replace the battery packs when the cars are
>>>> 10 years old. EV's are an environmental disaster in the making.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> **Not really. Li-Ion batteries are recyclable:
>>>
>>> https://www.carsguide.com.au/ev/advice/electric-car-battery-recycling-explained-83200
>>
>> At a financial and environmental cost.
>
> **Everything has a financial and environmental cost. I pay a charge for
> that when my mechanic does an oil change or a tyre swap.
>
>>
>>>
>>> Additionally, let's say a purchasers owns a $150,000.00 Tesla. After
>>> a battery failure, that owner is likely to pay the $20,000.00 to
>>> replace the battery pack. I know that my mate, Adam, paid $23,000.00
>>> to replace/repair the engine in his wife's S-Class Benz.
>>>
>>
>> Let's say most EV's that will be sold will be in the vicinity of
>> $16,000 to $80,000. Now would you spend $23k on a 10 year old car. No,
>> in most instances it won't be worth it.
>
> **And in 10 years, do you think there will be more or less third party
> battery suppliers? At that time, will batteries be cheaper or more
> expensive?
>
>>
>>> And, to nail the point home is the fact that Al-Ion batteries will be
>>> much easier and cheaper to recycle.
>>>
>>
>> According to who?
>
> **According to the guys who deal with lithium on a daily basis. Lithium
> is a highly reactive metal. Aluminium is not.
>
>>
>>> Even better, of course, is the fact that BEVs emit no CO2 when
>>> operating.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> But produce a shit-tonne in the process of production and with a much
>> shorter lifespan that is not environmentally friendly.
>
> **ALL cars produce pollution during production. Many ICE cars have a
> VERY short life-span.
>
>
>
They do?
Which make and models?
Unless you are talking about cars that get crashed and written off when
nearly new but that can also apply to any type of vehicle including Ev's?

--
Daryl

On 10/10/2022 4:07 pm, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 10/10/2022 11:59 am, Xeno wrote:
>> On 10/10/2022 9:07 am, Noddy wrote:
>>> On 10/10/2022 6:06 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>> On 9/10/2022 7:31 pm, Clocky wrote:
>>>
>>>>> They have replaceable packs but not replaceable cells. It won't be
>>>>> economically viable to replace the battery packs when the cars are
>>>>> 10 years old. EV's are an environmental disaster in the making.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> **Not really. Li-Ion batteries are recyclable:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.carsguide.com.au/ev/advice/electric-car-battery-recycling-explained-83200
>>>>
>>>> Additionally, let's say a purchasers owns a $150,000.00 Tesla. After
>>>> a battery failure, that owner is likely to pay the $20,000.00 to
>>>> replace the battery pack. I know that my mate, Adam, paid $23,000.00
>>>> to replace/repair the engine in his wife's S-Class Benz.
>>>
>>> Sounds like your mate got reamed for his replacement engine cost, but
>>> your point is solid. There is no way, in this country at least, that
>>> the value of *any* electric vehicle purchased new today is going to
>>> reach a point that by the time it's ten years old that a battery
>>> replacement would exceed the market value.
>>
>> You would be wrong! 10 year old Prius is at the age where a battery
>> replacement is not a valid proposition. And they are only $4k-$5k for
>> the pair. It's only the artificially inflated used car prices that are
>> helping to keep used Prius prices up. My mate's 2010 Prius was worth
>> $5k when it was 10 years old, now it's worth $10K.
>
> **I would argue that the only reason why a Prius battery costs $5k is
> because there are no third party battery suppliers for the car. Like My
> Subaru. One of the guys in the Levorg group had to buy a new headlight
> assembly. $2,500.00! I can tell you that there is not $2.5k worth of
> stuff in there. No third party suppliers exist for the part. Nor are any
> likely to appear any time soon.
>
>
>
>
He should of bought a Porsche because the parts are cheaper:-)
Subaru parts prices are crazy.

--
Daryl

On 9/10/2022 1:10 pm, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 9/10/2022 12:31 pm, Noddy wrote:
>> On 9/10/2022 11:01 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>> On 9/10/2022 10:06 am, Noddy wrote:
>>
>>>> You know Trev, you've been singing the praises of Al-Ion battery
>>>> technology and how it's going to change the world for some time now,
>>>> like 5 years or more, yet in spite of all that praise they *still*
>>>> haven't hit the market as a usable product.
>>>
>>> **TWENTY THREE YEARS is the time it took for Li-Ion batteries to
>>> reach marketing stage.
>>
>> Yeah, I understood you the first time. But you continually bleat about
>> Al-Ion batteries as if they're here ready to solve the world's
>> problems now, and that's *not* the reality.
>>
>> Is it Trev?
>
> **Of course not. I already explained that to you. Did you fail to read
> what I wrote?
>
>>
>>>> Why do you think that is?
>>>
>>> **All the problems have not yet been solved. Yet.
>>
>> Yeah, that's right. It's kinda like claiming that flying cars are
>> fantastic. Or, at least they *will* be when someone gets around to
>> making them work :)
>
> **BIG difference. Let me ask you:
>
> Has battery technology improved over the past couple of decades? Or not?
>
> The problems surrounding Al-Ion batteries are all about engineering, not
> physics. The engineers will solve the problems.

You're right, it's not physics that's the problem, it chemistry, there
are at least 10 incompatible projects out there all of which have some
sort of showstopper.

Hydrogen fuel cells are definitely a better idea, they only require the
incentive to build the infrastructure not some advance in science to be
practical.

On 10/10/2022 4:26 pm, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 10/10/2022 10:56 am, Daryl wrote:
>> On 10/10/2022 10:04 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>> On 10/10/2022 9:37 am, Daryl wrote:
>>>> On 10/10/2022 8:46 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>> On 9/10/2022 1:21 pm, Daryl wrote:
>>>>>> On 9/10/2022 12:31 pm, Noddy wrote:
>>>>>>> On 9/10/2022 11:01 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 9/10/2022 10:06 am, Noddy wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You know Trev, you've been singing the praises of Al-Ion
>>>>>>>>> battery technology and how it's going to change the world for
>>>>>>>>> some time now, like 5 years or more, yet in spite of all that
>>>>>>>>> praise they *still* haven't hit the market as a usable product.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> **TWENTY THREE YEARS is the time it took for Li-Ion batteries to
>>>>>>>> reach marketing stage.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yeah, I understood you the first time. But you continually bleat
>>>>>>> about Al-Ion batteries as if they're here ready to solve the
>>>>>>> world's problems now, and that's *not* the reality.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is it Trev?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Why do you think that is?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> **All the problems have not yet been solved. Yet.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yeah, that's right. It's kinda like claiming that flying cars are
>>>>>>> fantastic. Or, at least they *will* be when someone gets around
>>>>>>> to making them work :)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> However, whilst BEVs certainly have their place (thanks, in no
>>>>>>>>>> small part to Australia's 3rd largest car importer - Tesla),
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Third largest car importer? Yeah, I don't think so....
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ** https://www.canstarblue.com.au/vehicles/top-selling-cars/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Tesla Model Y - #3
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 3rd Most popular individual *model*, Trevor. Not 3rd largest car
>>>>>>> importer based on total unit sales. MG sold more vehicles in
>>>>>>> Australia in 2021 than Tesla, and according to this site here
>>>>>>> Tesla doesn't even make the top ten:
>>>>>>>   >
>>>>>>> https://www.savings.com.au/car-loans/biggest-car-manufacturers-brands-australia
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Electric vehicles accounted for a paltry 1.7% of new car sales in
>>>>>>> Australia in 2021, which is an increase of a whopping 230% on the
>>>>>>> previous year, but it is *still* nothing but "niche" in the grand
>>>>>>> scheme.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Funny. I can recall saying this very thing some time ago and
>>>>>>>>> you poo-pooed the idea claiming that fuel cell technology
>>>>>>>>> wasn't the answer thanks to the difficultly and cost associated
>>>>>>>>> with setting up the refuelling network.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> **Nope. I told you that operating an INTERNAL COMBUSTION engine
>>>>>>>> on H2 was dumb. REALLY dumb.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That was one comment you made, but that's not what I'm talking
>>>>>>> about.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I also told you that there was a grand total of ONE H2 fuel cell
>>>>>>>> refuelling stations across Australia. OTOH, as of September
>>>>>>>> 2021, there were more than 3,000 public chargers, 470
>>>>>>>> Superchargers and millions of households where EVs could charge
>>>>>>>> their batteries. H2 fuel cell technology has a long way to go in
>>>>>>>> Australia to catch up with BEV chargers.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Which is precisely why you claimed that fuel cells would never
>>>>>>> take off. Your view seems to have changed somewhat in recent times.
>>>>>>>>> I *still* maintain the belief that battery and hybrid electric
>>>>>>>>> cars are nothing other than a novelty, and fuel cell will
>>>>>>>>> eventually become the dominant zero emission standard.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> **Hybrid cars will dominate the market, along with BEVs in the
>>>>>>>> near term.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I doubt it. They're readily available now, and while they're
>>>>>>> popularity is increasing their overall sales figures are
>>>>>>> *remarkably* low.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   Hybrids make a great deal of sense for many Australians. H2 fuel
>>>>>>>> cell vehicles may or may not succeed. We need a lot more
>>>>>>>> infrastructure. A LOT MORE. Certainly, in Japan, H2 fuel cell
>>>>>>>> EVs will likely be dominant.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The exact same thing can be said of plug in EV's. We don't have
>>>>>>> the grid capacity to support them in anything other than small
>>>>>>> numbers, and if we all switched to them tomorrow the country
>>>>>>> would implode.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The problem this country faces is that we're fucked *either* way,
>>>>>>> as we don't have the infrastructure in place to support *any*
>>>>>>> zero emissions vehicles in large numbers which makes ridiculous
>>>>>>> policies from lunatics like The Greens look even *more* mentally
>>>>>>> challenged.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Even more so when Australia's total contribution to the worlds CO2
>>>>>> emissions is about 1.2% and emissions from private vehicles
>>>>>> accounts for about 10% of that 1.2% so if we all switched to zero
>>>>>> emission vehicles tomorrow it wouldn't make any difference.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> **EVERY SINGLE human on the planet needs to work to reduce CO2
>>>>> emissions. That includes every single Chinese, American and
>>>>> Australia citizens.
>>>>>
>>>>> No excuses.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> I'm not against making an effort to reduce emissions and that has
>>>> already happened over time, what I am against is the BS that in
>>>> Australia we need rush into EV's as if they are going to save us
>>>> all, its just a huge scam.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> **You seem to imagine that:
>>>
>>> * The problem is not urgent. The planet it warming fast. If CO2
>>> levels reach approximately 500ppm, we are all fucked. NOTHING we do
>>> can save our civilisation. Not a damned thing.
>>
>> Depends on the way you view urgent, like I said our vehicle emissions
>> account for less than 0.5% of the worlds CO2 emissions, if every car
>> in Australia switched to EV's tomorrow it would make bugger all
>> difference to emissions whilst bankrupting the country, it just
>> doesn't make sense to rush around like headless chooks, more speed
>> less haste.
>> The sky is NOT falling Chicken Little.
>
> **I will say once more:
>
> EVERY SINGLE human on the planet must act to reduce emissions. That
> includes every Chinese citizen, every American and every Australian.
>
> No exceptions.

Of course Mr Chicken Little.

>
>>
>>> * That Australia still makes cars. We don't. We have to buy what
>>> others build. Increasingly, that means EVs.
>>
>> Possibly but as recently as last night I read that Ford have dropped
>> the idea of all their vehicles being electric, they have decided that
>> the market for IC Mustangs is so strong they will continue to make
>> them, the decision was driven by customer demand.
>
> **And how many Mustangs are sold around the world, compared all the
> other Ford vehicles.
>
> Face it: Despite the enormous popularity of the Mustang, it is still a
> niche market. Then, of course, is the Mustang-E.
>
>> I also think that mostly because of the cost many people will just
>> hang onto older cars, mine are both 20yrs old and nothing wrong with
>> either of them, wife's car is 6yrs old and also unlikely to be
>> replaced anytime soon.
>
> **Sure. So will I. Until petrol becomes so expensive that it no longer
> makes any sense to drive a petrol powered vehicle. My next car will be
> an EV, or PHEV. No doubt about it.