On 9/10/2022 11:07 pm, Noddy wrote:
> On 9/10/2022 3:10 pm, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> On 9/10/2022 1:14 pm, Daryl wrote:
>
>
>> **When I bought the Levorg 5 years ago (yikes!) I would have loved to
>> buy a decent PHEV. Unfortunately, the sole choice back then was the
>> Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV. Horrible thing. Too big, too cumbersome and
>> handled like a large boat. Things have changed in the past 5 years.
>> Thankfully. PHEVs are a great solution for many Australian drivers. I
>> figured that, had I bought the Mitsubishi, I would need to fuel it
>> twice per year.
>
> So, clearly environmental concerns are not a big thing for you,

**Incorrect.

which is
> kind of odd given your stance as an environmental campaigner. Then
> again, you live in an old, inefficient house with no solar, which in
> itself is strange for a guy who claims he's been a fan of environmental
> science for 40 years :)

**Rather than filling my roof with Solar panels, I have lots of trees to
shade my home. I can't have both. I choose trees. My air con gets used
around 10 days per year. I NEVER need to use heating.

>
>>> Neither thought that any EV made any economic or practical sense
>>> despite both their houses having solar panels and batteries.
>>> The friends who bought the PHEV are extremely happy with it, they can
>>> doing their basic running around locally shopping etc on just
>>> electric which is charged by their solar and if needed they have the
>>> IC engine as a back up, it only has about 68km electric only range
>>> but that is proving to be very useful, overall the PHEV seems to be
>>> the best of both worlds at the moment but at about $53k it wasn't an
>>> economic decision, the new i30 that my other friends bought was about
>>> $23k less.
>>>
>>
>> **In the case of the Mitsubishi, the price differential was not as
>> substantial. Dunno about today.
>
> The Mitsubishi would have done the job for you Trev.

**NO, it would not. It was a horrible thing to drive.

It just would have
> been a different drive compared to your Levorg.

**Different, in a horrible way.

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On 9/10/2022 8:56 pm, Daryl wrote:
> On 9/10/2022 2:10 pm, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> On 9/10/2022 12:31 pm, Noddy wrote:
>>> On 9/10/2022 11:01 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>> On 9/10/2022 10:06 am, Noddy wrote:
>>>
>>>>> You know Trev, you've been singing the praises of Al-Ion battery
>>>>> technology and how it's going to change the world for some time
>>>>> now, like 5 years or more, yet in spite of all that praise they
>>>>> *still* haven't hit the market as a usable product.
>>>>
>>>> **TWENTY THREE YEARS is the time it took for Li-Ion batteries to
>>>> reach marketing stage.
>>>
>>> Yeah, I understood you the first time. But you continually bleat
>>> about Al-Ion batteries as if they're here ready to solve the world's
>>> problems now, and that's *not* the reality.
>>>
>>> Is it Trev?
>>
>> **Of course not. I already explained that to you. Did you fail to read
>> what I wrote?
>>
>>>
>>>>> Why do you think that is?
>>>>
>>>> **All the problems have not yet been solved. Yet.
>>>
>>> Yeah, that's right. It's kinda like claiming that flying cars are
>>> fantastic. Or, at least they *will* be when someone gets around to
>>> making them work :)
>>
>> **BIG difference. Let me ask you:
>>
>> Has battery technology improved over the past couple of decades? Or not?
>>
>> The problems surrounding Al-Ion batteries are all about engineering,
>> not physics. The engineers will solve the problems.
>>
>>>
>>>>>> However, whilst BEVs certainly have their place (thanks, in no
>>>>>> small part to Australia's 3rd largest car importer - Tesla),
>>>>>
>>>>> Third largest car importer? Yeah, I don't think so....
>>>>
>>>> ** https://www.canstarblue.com.au/vehicles/top-selling-cars/
>>>>
>>>> Tesla Model Y - #3
>>>
>>> 3rd Most popular individual *model*, Trevor. Not 3rd largest car
>>> importer based on total unit sales. MG sold more vehicles in
>>> Australia in 2021 than Tesla, and according to this site here Tesla
>>> doesn't even make the top ten:
>>
>> **Yeah, true enough.
>>
>>>   >
>>> https://www.savings.com.au/car-loans/biggest-car-manufacturers-brands-australia
>>>
>>> Electric vehicles accounted for a paltry 1.7% of new car sales in
>>> Australia in 2021, which is an increase of a whopping 230% on the
>>> previous year, but it is *still* nothing but "niche" in the grand
>>> scheme.
>>
>> **Sure. However, as I constantly remind you: Australia doesn't build
>> any cars. We have to buy what everyone else builds. That is,
>> increasingly, hybrids and EVs.
>>
>>>
>>>>> Funny. I can recall saying this very thing some time ago and you
>>>>> poo-pooed the idea claiming that fuel cell technology wasn't the
>>>>> answer thanks to the difficultly and cost associated with setting
>>>>> up the refuelling network.
>>>>
>>>> **Nope. I told you that operating an INTERNAL COMBUSTION engine on
>>>> H2 was dumb. REALLY dumb.
>>>
>>> That was one comment you made, but that's not what I'm talking about.
>>
>> **Indeed. And it bears repeating. H2 ICE cars are dumb.
>
> Why?

**Because to store the H2 at 10,000psi requires substantial space for
fuel tanks. Re-filling those tanks is also difficult.

> Only problem I see with them is the same problem as h2 fuel cells which
> is a lack of places to refill at the moment.

**Nope. H2 ICE vehicles MAY work for large trucks and farm equipment. It
will never work for passenger cars. Not in any practical sense,
anyway.Toyota proved that:

https://www.dailysportscar.com/2021/04/28/hydrogen-powered-toyota-corolla-makes-its-first-run-at-fuji.html

The car had a range of 50km (under race conditions), despite being
fitted with 4 X 10,000psi fuel tanks.

> It certainly works in heavy diesels so no reason it couldn't work in a
> smaller converted diesel car.

**Larger vehicles are a different matter, as they tend to have lots of
wasted space to store fuel. Passenger cars are not.

> Most likely the reason it won't happen is that most car manufacturers
> have jumped on the same EV bandwagon with the main exception being Toyota.

**No. It is simply not practical. H2 fuel cell EVs and BEVs are practical.

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On 9/10/2022 6:18 pm, Noddy wrote:
> On 9/10/2022 2:10 pm, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> On 9/10/2022 12:31 pm, Noddy wrote:
>
>>> Yeah, I understood you the first time. But you continually bleat
>>> about Al-Ion batteries as if they're here ready to solve the world's
>>> problems now, and that's *not* the reality.
>>>
>>> Is it Trev?
>>
>> **Of course not. I already explained that to you. Did you fail to read
>> what I wrote?
>
> No,

**Clearly you did, else you would not have asked the question.

but I think you fail to understand what you're saying. You
> continually bleat about Al-Ion batteries saving the day as if they're
> here doing it *now*!

**I have NEVER stated that Al-Ion batteries are practical today. Not once.

>
>>>> **All the problems have not yet been solved. Yet.
>>>
>>> Yeah, that's right. It's kinda like claiming that flying cars are
>>> fantastic. Or, at least they *will* be when someone gets around to
>>> making them work :)
>>
>> **BIG difference. Let me ask you:
>
> Not the slightest bit different in fact. Both Flying cars and Al-Ion
> batteries are fantastic technology that is not yet able to be put into
> practice.
>
>> Has battery technology improved over the past couple of decades? Or not?
>
> Yeah, it has. It's gone from being completely shithouse to pretty
> average. So what?

**You think Li-Ion batteries are "average"? In what sense?

>
>> The problems surrounding Al-Ion batteries are all about engineering,
>> not physics. The engineers will solve the problems.
>
> Again, I refer to my original point of that being exactly the same as
> saying flying cars will be awesome once they figure out how to make them
> work.

**Bad analogy. Try again. I will say once more: Research into Al-Ion
batteries has been around for around 10 years. It was 23 years before
Li-Ion batteries were ready for sale.

>
>>> Electric vehicles accounted for a paltry 1.7% of new car sales in
>>> Australia in 2021, which is an increase of a whopping 230% on the
>>> previous year, but it is *still* nothing but "niche" in the grand
>>> scheme.
>>
>> **Sure. However, as I constantly remind you: Australia doesn't build
>> any cars. We have to buy what everyone else builds. That is,
>> increasingly, hybrids and EVs.
>
> And I remind you that that increase is *remarkably* slow.

**And, once more: Australia no longer builds cars. We must buy what
other people build. Increasingly, that means EVs of some kind.

>
> At the moment the majority of the most popular vehicles on the market
> are all diesels, and there is nothing on the horizon to suggest that
> will change any time soon. In fact, I expect in not too distant future
> you'll see a *lot* of manufacturers who jumped on the "Phase out
> fossils" bandwagon a couple of years ago to announce that their initial
> projections were a tad unrealistic and that they will be staying with IC
> powered vehciles for some time yet.

**This would be your 'flying car' moment. The evidence is such that EVs
(and hybrids) are increasing market share across the plant.

>
> A few already have :)
>>>>> Funny. I can recall saying this very thing some time ago and you
>>>>> poo-pooed the idea claiming that fuel cell technology wasn't the
>>>>> answer thanks to the difficultly and cost associated with setting
>>>>> up the refuelling network.
>>>>
>>>> **Nope. I told you that operating an INTERNAL COMBUSTION engine on
>>>> H2 was dumb. REALLY dumb.
>>>
>>> That was one comment you made, but that's not what I'm talking about.
>>
>> **Indeed. And it bears repeating. H2 ICE cars are dumb. I DID NOT say
>> that H2 fuel cell vehicles were dumb. On the contrary. They make a lot
>> of sense. And I have said so many times.
>
> Actually Trev, if you go back and read the original comments I never
> said that hydrogen powered ICE's were the way of the future, but rather
> that the idea should be investigated to see what could be made of it.

**And I demonstrated just how dumb an idea it was.

> Companies like Toyota apparently thought along similar lines which is
> why they put time and money into the idea,

**Toyota do a lot of things that they never expect to put into
production. Perhaps Toyota built their H2 ICE cars to demonstrate just
how dumb the idea is.

and I believe some
> agricultural engine manufacturers have already converted existing
> engines to burn hydrogen and are either ready to do to market or have
> done already.

**Goal post shift duly noted. PASSENGER CARS will never burn H2. Trucks
and farm equipment is quite different and may be viable for a variety of
reasons. The value of the equipment is one of those reasons.

>
> The idea has it's uses, but it won't save the planet.
>
>> The present problem facing H2 fuel cell vehicles is the almost total
>> lack of refuelling capacity in Australia. By comparison, there are
>> THOUSANDS of BEV charging facilities. Millions, if you include
>> households.
>
> Just imagine how quickly the power generating network would evaporate up
> it's own arsehole if millions of EV owners all came home from work at
> 6pm and plugs in their cars to charge the battery :)

**27%.

>
> We *barely* have enough power generation now to get through an average
> summer without brownouts and shutdowns. The idea is laughable.

**Again: We need to find around 27% more electricity over the next 15
years.

>
>>>> I also told you that there was a grand total of ONE H2 fuel cell
>>>> refuelling stations across Australia. OTOH, as of September 2021,
>>>> there were more than 3,000 public chargers, 470 Superchargers and
>>>> millions of households where EVs could charge their batteries. H2
>>>> fuel cell technology has a long way to go in Australia to catch up
>>>> with BEV chargers.
>>>
>>> Which is precisely why you claimed that fuel cells would never take off.
>>
>> **That would be a lie™. I have consistently stated that H2 fuel cell
>> vehicles will likely be VERY popular in Japan. Australia is different.
>
> I've never heard you talk about "Japan" at all, and I don't know why you
> would as it's not relevant to us.

**It is kinda relevant, given the following:

* Japan has signed contracts to buy H2 generated in Australia.
* Japan builds a substantial number of cars purchased by Australians.

The Japanese can do whatever they
> like, but in having said that the needs of the average suburban
> Australian aren't all that much different to the needs of anyone else in
> any other metropolis I expect.
>
> If fuel cell vehicles can work in Japan, they can work anywhere else.

**Sure. However, Australia has ONE H2 fuel cell refuelling station and
thousands of EV chargers.

>
>> We have ONE fuel cell refuelling station for the entire nation. We
>> need THOUSANDS more before fuel cell vehicles can make any headway.
>> You keep forgetting that BEV drivers can charge their cars at home in
>> a pinch.
>
> In a pinch? 9 hours is hardly a "Pinch" :)

**The average Australian drives 36km per day. Seems pretty easy to me.
For the vast majority of drivers anyway.

>
>  H2 fuel cell cars require a dedicated refuelling station. Australia
> has ONE.
>
> So what? How many EV recharging stations were there 5 years ago?

**Millions. I will remind you: A BEV owner can plug his/her car into a
power point. A fuel cell vehicle owner cannot.

>
> EV's have a distinct advantage over fuel cell technology in that EV's
> are here now while fuel cell is still emerging.

**Not really. Fuel cells have been around since the 19th century. The
problem has always been about refuelling.

>>> Your view seems to have changed somewhat in recent times.
>>
>> **No, it has not. I love the idea of H2 fuel cell cars. Awesome idea,
>> but they are YEARS away from practicality. In Australia.
>>
>> And, your idea of H2 ICE cars is just plain idiotic.
>
> Not my idea Trevor. A lot of other people have clearly thought about it
> long before I ever did, and just for the record there is nothing
> "idiotic" about alternative fuel sources for IC engines. They've been
> around for some time, even if you're not aware of them :)

On 9/10/2022 1:21 pm, Daryl wrote:
> On 9/10/2022 12:31 pm, Noddy wrote:
>> On 9/10/2022 11:01 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>> On 9/10/2022 10:06 am, Noddy wrote:
>>
>>>> You know Trev, you've been singing the praises of Al-Ion battery
>>>> technology and how it's going to change the world for some time now,
>>>> like 5 years or more, yet in spite of all that praise they *still*
>>>> haven't hit the market as a usable product.
>>>
>>> **TWENTY THREE YEARS is the time it took for Li-Ion batteries to
>>> reach marketing stage.
>>
>> Yeah, I understood you the first time. But you continually bleat about
>> Al-Ion batteries as if they're here ready to solve the world's
>> problems now, and that's *not* the reality.
>>
>> Is it Trev?
>>
>>>> Why do you think that is?
>>>
>>> **All the problems have not yet been solved. Yet.
>>
>> Yeah, that's right. It's kinda like claiming that flying cars are
>> fantastic. Or, at least they *will* be when someone gets around to
>> making them work :)
>>
>>>>> However, whilst BEVs certainly have their place (thanks, in no
>>>>> small part to Australia's 3rd largest car importer - Tesla),
>>>>
>>>> Third largest car importer? Yeah, I don't think so....
>>>
>>> ** https://www.canstarblue.com.au/vehicles/top-selling-cars/
>>>
>>> Tesla Model Y - #3
>>
>> 3rd Most popular individual *model*, Trevor. Not 3rd largest car
>> importer based on total unit sales. MG sold more vehicles in Australia
>> in 2021 than Tesla, and according to this site here Tesla doesn't even
>> make the top ten:
>>   >
>> https://www.savings.com.au/car-loans/biggest-car-manufacturers-brands-australia
>>
>> Electric vehicles accounted for a paltry 1.7% of new car sales in
>> Australia in 2021, which is an increase of a whopping 230% on the
>> previous year, but it is *still* nothing but "niche" in the grand scheme.
>>
>>>> Funny. I can recall saying this very thing some time ago and you
>>>> poo-pooed the idea claiming that fuel cell technology wasn't the
>>>> answer thanks to the difficultly and cost associated with setting up
>>>> the refuelling network.
>>>
>>> **Nope. I told you that operating an INTERNAL COMBUSTION engine on H2
>>> was dumb. REALLY dumb.
>>
>> That was one comment you made, but that's not what I'm talking about.
>>
>>> I also told you that there was a grand total of ONE H2 fuel cell
>>> refuelling stations across Australia. OTOH, as of September 2021,
>>> there were more than 3,000 public chargers, 470 Superchargers and
>>> millions of households where EVs could charge their batteries. H2
>>> fuel cell technology has a long way to go in Australia to catch up
>>> with BEV chargers.
>>
>> Which is precisely why you claimed that fuel cells would never take
>> off. Your view seems to have changed somewhat in recent times.
>>>> I *still* maintain the belief that battery and hybrid electric cars
>>>> are nothing other than a novelty, and fuel cell will eventually
>>>> become the dominant zero emission standard.
>>>
>>> **Hybrid cars will dominate the market, along with BEVs in the near
>>> term.
>>
>> I doubt it. They're readily available now, and while they're
>> popularity is increasing their overall sales figures are *remarkably*
>> low.
>>
>>   Hybrids make a great deal of sense for many Australians. H2 fuel
>>> cell vehicles may or may not succeed. We need a lot more
>>> infrastructure. A LOT MORE. Certainly, in Japan, H2 fuel cell EVs
>>> will likely be dominant.
>>
>> The exact same thing can be said of plug in EV's. We don't have the
>> grid capacity to support them in anything other than small numbers,
>> and if we all switched to them tomorrow the country would implode.
>>
>> The problem this country faces is that we're fucked *either* way, as
>> we don't have the infrastructure in place to support *any* zero
>> emissions vehicles in large numbers which makes ridiculous policies
>> from lunatics like The Greens look even *more* mentally challenged.
>>
>>
> Even more so when Australia's total contribution to the worlds CO2
> emissions is about 1.2% and emissions from private vehicles accounts for
> about 10% of that 1.2% so if we all switched to zero emission vehicles
> tomorrow it wouldn't make any difference.
>

**EVERY SINGLE human on the planet needs to work to reduce CO2
emissions. That includes every single Chinese, American and Australia
citizens.

No excuses.

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On 10/10/2022 6:06 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 9/10/2022 7:31 pm, Clocky wrote:

>> They have replaceable packs but not replaceable cells. It won't be
>> economically viable to replace the battery packs when the cars are 10
>> years old. EV's are an environmental disaster in the making.
>>
>>
>
> **Not really. Li-Ion batteries are recyclable:
>
> https://www.carsguide.com.au/ev/advice/electric-car-battery-recycling-explained-83200
>
>
> Additionally, let's say a purchasers owns a $150,000.00 Tesla. After a
> battery failure, that owner is likely to pay the $20,000.00 to replace
> the battery pack. I know that my mate, Adam, paid $23,000.00 to
> replace/repair the engine in his wife's S-Class Benz.

Sounds like your mate got reamed for his replacement engine cost, but
your point is solid. There is no way, in this country at least, that the
value of *any* electric vehicle purchased new today is going to reach a
point that by the time it's ten years old that a battery replacement
would exceed the market value.

> And, to nail the point home is the fact that Al-Ion batteries will be
> much easier and cheaper to recycle.

And there you go again. Talking about Al-Ion batteries as if they're
physically real :)

> Even better, of course, is the fact that BEVs emit no CO2 when operating.

When they're operating, no. But when they're being manufactured and
charged, they emit shit-tonnes.

--
--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

On 10/10/2022 8:46 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 9/10/2022 1:21 pm, Daryl wrote:

>> Even more so when Australia's total contribution to the worlds CO2
>> emissions is about 1.2% and emissions from private vehicles accounts
>> for about 10% of that 1.2% so if we all switched to zero emission
>> vehicles tomorrow it wouldn't make any difference.
>>
>
> **EVERY SINGLE human on the planet needs to work to reduce CO2
> emissions. That includes every single Chinese, American and Australia
> citizens.
>
> No excuses.

Cool. When do *you* plan on starting?

--
--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

On 9/10/2022 11:02 pm, Noddy wrote:
> On 9/10/2022 1:21 pm, Daryl wrote:
>> On 9/10/2022 12:31 pm, Noddy wrote:
>
>>> The problem this country faces is that we're fucked *either* way, as
>>> we don't have the infrastructure in place to support *any* zero
>>> emissions vehicles in large numbers which makes ridiculous policies
>>> from lunatics like The Greens look even *more* mentally challenged.
>>>
>>>
>> Even more so when Australia's total contribution to the worlds CO2
>> emissions is about 1.2% and emissions from private vehicles accounts
>> for about 10% of that 1.2% so if we all switched to zero emission
>> vehicles tomorrow it wouldn't make any difference.
>
> Yep.
>
> For the amount of environmental damage the road fleet in this country
> actually does, the cost of making it "Green" is remarkably
> disproportionate. It will, in effect, cost shit-tonnes, and result in
> absolutely fuck nothing.
>
> The juice isn't worth the squeeze, as they say....
>
>
>
The very significant increased cost will cause inflation which leads to
all sorts of economic problems.
That won't be a problem if it happens slowly but the problems it will
cause if rushed certainly aren't worth the very tiny reduction in CO2
emissions.

--
Daryl

On 10/10/2022 9:09 am, Noddy wrote:
> On 10/10/2022 8:46 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> On 9/10/2022 1:21 pm, Daryl wrote:
>
>>> Even more so when Australia's total contribution to the worlds CO2
>>> emissions is about 1.2% and emissions from private vehicles accounts
>>> for about 10% of that 1.2% so if we all switched to zero emission
>>> vehicles tomorrow it wouldn't make any difference.
>>>
>>
>> **EVERY SINGLE human on the planet needs to work to reduce CO2
>> emissions. That includes every single Chinese, American and Australia
>> citizens.
>>
>> No excuses.
>
> Cool. When do *you* plan on starting?
>
>
>

**I started more than 45 years ago. I made a decision that reduced my
CO2 footprint by a HUGE amount. I chose not to breed. People are the
problem, so I decided not to add to that problem.

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On 10/10/2022 8:02 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 9/10/2022 11:07 pm, Noddy wrote:
>> On 9/10/2022 3:10 pm, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>> On 9/10/2022 1:14 pm, Daryl wrote:
>>
>>
>>> **When I bought the Levorg 5 years ago (yikes!) I would have loved to
>>> buy a decent PHEV. Unfortunately, the sole choice back then was the
>>> Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV. Horrible thing. Too big, too cumbersome
>>> and handled like a large boat. Things have changed in the past 5
>>> years. Thankfully. PHEVs are a great solution for many Australian
>>> drivers. I figured that, had I bought the Mitsubishi, I would need to
>>> fuel it twice per year.
>>
>> So, clearly environmental concerns are not a big thing for you,
>
> **Incorrect.
>
>  which is
>> kind of odd given your stance as an environmental campaigner. Then
>> again, you live in an old, inefficient house with no solar, which in
>> itself is strange for a guy who claims he's been a fan of
>> environmental science for 40 years :)
>
> **Rather than filling my roof with Solar panels, I have lots of trees to
> shade my home. I can't have both. I choose trees. My air con gets used
> around 10 days per year. I NEVER need to use heating.
>
>>
>>>> Neither thought that any EV made any economic or practical sense
>>>> despite both their houses having solar panels and batteries.
>>>> The friends who bought the PHEV are extremely happy with it, they
>>>> can doing their basic running around locally shopping etc on just
>>>> electric which is charged by their solar and if needed they have the
>>>> IC engine as a back up, it only has about 68km electric only range
>>>> but that is proving to be very useful, overall the PHEV seems to be
>>>> the best of both worlds at the moment but at about $53k it wasn't an
>>>> economic decision, the new i30 that my other friends bought was
>>>> about $23k less.
>>>>
>>>
>>> **In the case of the Mitsubishi, the price differential was not as
>>> substantial. Dunno about today.
>>
>> The Mitsubishi would have done the job for you Trev.
>
> **NO, it would not. It was a horrible thing to drive.
>
>  It just would have
>> been a different drive compared to your Levorg.
>
> **Different, in a horrible way.
>
>
>
Certainly not a sports car but "horrible" is stretching it a bit.
I've not driven one but have been a passenger and it was comfortable enough.

--
Daryl

On 10/10/2022 9:23 am, Daryl wrote:
> On 10/10/2022 8:02 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> On 9/10/2022 11:07 pm, Noddy wrote:
>>> On 9/10/2022 3:10 pm, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>> On 9/10/2022 1:14 pm, Daryl wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> **When I bought the Levorg 5 years ago (yikes!) I would have loved
>>>> to buy a decent PHEV. Unfortunately, the sole choice back then was
>>>> the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV. Horrible thing. Too big, too
>>>> cumbersome and handled like a large boat. Things have changed in the
>>>> past 5 years. Thankfully. PHEVs are a great solution for many
>>>> Australian drivers. I figured that, had I bought the Mitsubishi, I
>>>> would need to fuel it twice per year.
>>>
>>> So, clearly environmental concerns are not a big thing for you,
>>
>> **Incorrect.
>>
>>   which is
>>> kind of odd given your stance as an environmental campaigner. Then
>>> again, you live in an old, inefficient house with no solar, which in
>>> itself is strange for a guy who claims he's been a fan of
>>> environmental science for 40 years :)
>>
>> **Rather than filling my roof with Solar panels, I have lots of trees
>> to shade my home. I can't have both. I choose trees. My air con gets
>> used around 10 days per year. I NEVER need to use heating.
>>
>>>
>>>>> Neither thought that any EV made any economic or practical sense
>>>>> despite both their houses having solar panels and batteries.
>>>>> The friends who bought the PHEV are extremely happy with it, they
>>>>> can doing their basic running around locally shopping etc on just
>>>>> electric which is charged by their solar and if needed they have
>>>>> the IC engine as a back up, it only has about 68km electric only
>>>>> range but that is proving to be very useful, overall the PHEV seems
>>>>> to be the best of both worlds at the moment but at about $53k it
>>>>> wasn't an economic decision, the new i30 that my other friends
>>>>> bought was about $23k less.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> **In the case of the Mitsubishi, the price differential was not as
>>>> substantial. Dunno about today.
>>>
>>> The Mitsubishi would have done the job for you Trev.
>>
>> **NO, it would not. It was a horrible thing to drive.
>>
>>   It just would have
>>> been a different drive compared to your Levorg.
>>
>> **Different, in a horrible way.
>>
>>
>>
> Certainly not a sports car but "horrible" is stretching it a bit.
> I've not driven one but have been a passenger and it was comfortable
> enough.
>
>

**I understand that the newer models are much improved. The early one
was shitful.

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On 10/10/2022 6:06 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 9/10/2022 7:31 pm, Clocky wrote:
>> On 9/10/2022 8:54 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>> On 9/10/2022 11:28 am, yosemite sam wrote:
>>>> Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>> On 9/10/2022 10:02 am, yosemite sam wrote:
>>>>>> Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>> On 8/10/2022 4:02 pm, Xeno wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 8/10/2022 3:48 pm, Clocky wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 8/10/2022 12:13 pm, yosemite sam wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://finance.yahoo.com/news/waterlogged-electric-cars-imploding-florida-172415203.html
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://nypost.com/2022/10/06/electric-vehicles-catching-fire-in-florida-after-hurricane-ian/
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Teslas" plural? That looks to be the same car in those 'stories'.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yep, looks like one car. Teslas do have a habit of incinerating
>>>>>>>> themselves and it doesn't always require a dunking. A decent
>>>>>>>> biff on the highway will do it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What are the actual numbers or is this just anti-EV bullshit?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1, so far.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> FWIW, EVs will not be taking over the world. At least not until
>>>>>>>> a new battery compound is tested and found to work much more
>>>>>>>> efficaciously than *Lithium*.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> **Points. That new battery compound already exits - Aluminium.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Points:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> * Al-Ion batteries can pack 3 times the energy into the same
>>>>>>> space as a Li-Ion battery.
>>>>>>> * Aluminium is cheaper, more plentiful and more recyclable than
>>>>>>> Lithium.
>>>>>>> * Aluminium does not catch fire when exposed to water.
>>>>>>> * There are numerous other advantages to Al-Ion batteries.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> but current EV's wont be able to use them since all have
>>>>>> non-replaceable batteries. during most of my lifetime electric
>>>>>> cars have been part of science fiction, now they're reality.
>>>>>
>>>>> **Bullshit.
>>>>
>>>> so which EV's have replaceable batteries? that would be none afaik.
>>>
>>> **ALL Teslas have replaceable batteries. I would expect that all the
>>> others do as well. Same as Toyota hybrids. Their batteries are
>>> replaceable too.
>>>
>>
>>
>> They have replaceable packs but not replaceable cells. It won't be
>> economically viable to replace the battery packs when the cars are 10
>> years old. EV's are an environmental disaster in the making.
>>
>>
>
> **Not really. Li-Ion batteries are recyclable:
>
> https://www.carsguide.com.au/ev/advice/electric-car-battery-recycling-explained-83200
>
> Additionally, let's say a purchasers owns a $150,000.00 Tesla. After a
> battery failure, that owner is likely to pay the $20,000.00 to replace
> the battery pack. I know that my mate, Adam, paid $23,000.00 to
> replace/repair the engine in his wife's S-Class Benz.

A rare event so its hardly a valid point, many IC engines last 30-40yrs,
no chance any battery will last that long.
>
> And, to nail the point home is the fact that Al-Ion batteries will be
> much easier and cheaper to recycle.
>
> Even better, of course, is the fact that BEVs emit no CO2 when operating.
>
>
I have watched YouTube videos where some people were replacing
individual cells in a Prius battery and I've also heard of it being done
in a Tesla, replacing an entire battery pack is crazy if just a couple
of cells fail.
The more EV's there are the more options to repair them will appear,
necessity being the mother of invention.

--
Daryl

On 10/10/2022 8:46 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 9/10/2022 1:21 pm, Daryl wrote:
>> On 9/10/2022 12:31 pm, Noddy wrote:
>>> On 9/10/2022 11:01 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>> On 9/10/2022 10:06 am, Noddy wrote:
>>>
>>>>> You know Trev, you've been singing the praises of Al-Ion battery
>>>>> technology and how it's going to change the world for some time
>>>>> now, like 5 years or more, yet in spite of all that praise they
>>>>> *still* haven't hit the market as a usable product.
>>>>
>>>> **TWENTY THREE YEARS is the time it took for Li-Ion batteries to
>>>> reach marketing stage.
>>>
>>> Yeah, I understood you the first time. But you continually bleat
>>> about Al-Ion batteries as if they're here ready to solve the world's
>>> problems now, and that's *not* the reality.
>>>
>>> Is it Trev?
>>>
>>>>> Why do you think that is?
>>>>
>>>> **All the problems have not yet been solved. Yet.
>>>
>>> Yeah, that's right. It's kinda like claiming that flying cars are
>>> fantastic. Or, at least they *will* be when someone gets around to
>>> making them work :)
>>>
>>>>>> However, whilst BEVs certainly have their place (thanks, in no
>>>>>> small part to Australia's 3rd largest car importer - Tesla),
>>>>>
>>>>> Third largest car importer? Yeah, I don't think so....
>>>>
>>>> ** https://www.canstarblue.com.au/vehicles/top-selling-cars/
>>>>
>>>> Tesla Model Y - #3
>>>
>>> 3rd Most popular individual *model*, Trevor. Not 3rd largest car
>>> importer based on total unit sales. MG sold more vehicles in
>>> Australia in 2021 than Tesla, and according to this site here Tesla
>>> doesn't even make the top ten:
>>>   >
>>> https://www.savings.com.au/car-loans/biggest-car-manufacturers-brands-australia
>>>
>>> Electric vehicles accounted for a paltry 1.7% of new car sales in
>>> Australia in 2021, which is an increase of a whopping 230% on the
>>> previous year, but it is *still* nothing but "niche" in the grand
>>> scheme.
>>>
>>>>> Funny. I can recall saying this very thing some time ago and you
>>>>> poo-pooed the idea claiming that fuel cell technology wasn't the
>>>>> answer thanks to the difficultly and cost associated with setting
>>>>> up the refuelling network.
>>>>
>>>> **Nope. I told you that operating an INTERNAL COMBUSTION engine on
>>>> H2 was dumb. REALLY dumb.
>>>
>>> That was one comment you made, but that's not what I'm talking about.
>>>
>>>> I also told you that there was a grand total of ONE H2 fuel cell
>>>> refuelling stations across Australia. OTOH, as of September 2021,
>>>> there were more than 3,000 public chargers, 470 Superchargers and
>>>> millions of households where EVs could charge their batteries. H2
>>>> fuel cell technology has a long way to go in Australia to catch up
>>>> with BEV chargers.
>>>
>>> Which is precisely why you claimed that fuel cells would never take
>>> off. Your view seems to have changed somewhat in recent times.
>>>>> I *still* maintain the belief that battery and hybrid electric cars
>>>>> are nothing other than a novelty, and fuel cell will eventually
>>>>> become the dominant zero emission standard.
>>>>
>>>> **Hybrid cars will dominate the market, along with BEVs in the near
>>>> term.
>>>
>>> I doubt it. They're readily available now, and while they're
>>> popularity is increasing their overall sales figures are *remarkably*
>>> low.
>>>
>>>   Hybrids make a great deal of sense for many Australians. H2 fuel
>>>> cell vehicles may or may not succeed. We need a lot more
>>>> infrastructure. A LOT MORE. Certainly, in Japan, H2 fuel cell EVs
>>>> will likely be dominant.
>>>
>>> The exact same thing can be said of plug in EV's. We don't have the
>>> grid capacity to support them in anything other than small numbers,
>>> and if we all switched to them tomorrow the country would implode.
>>>
>>> The problem this country faces is that we're fucked *either* way, as
>>> we don't have the infrastructure in place to support *any* zero
>>> emissions vehicles in large numbers which makes ridiculous policies
>>> from lunatics like The Greens look even *more* mentally challenged.
>>>
>>>
>> Even more so when Australia's total contribution to the worlds CO2
>> emissions is about 1.2% and emissions from private vehicles accounts
>> for about 10% of that 1.2% so if we all switched to zero emission
>> vehicles tomorrow it wouldn't make any difference.
>>
>
> **EVERY SINGLE human on the planet needs to work to reduce CO2
> emissions. That includes every single Chinese, American and Australia
> citizens.
>
> No excuses.
>
>
I'm not against making an effort to reduce emissions and that has
already happened over time, what I am against is the BS that in
Australia we need rush into EV's as if they are going to save us all,
its just a huge scam.

--
Daryl

On 10/10/2022 9:37 am, Daryl wrote:
> On 10/10/2022 8:46 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> On 9/10/2022 1:21 pm, Daryl wrote:
>>> On 9/10/2022 12:31 pm, Noddy wrote:
>>>> On 9/10/2022 11:01 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>> On 9/10/2022 10:06 am, Noddy wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> You know Trev, you've been singing the praises of Al-Ion battery
>>>>>> technology and how it's going to change the world for some time
>>>>>> now, like 5 years or more, yet in spite of all that praise they
>>>>>> *still* haven't hit the market as a usable product.
>>>>>
>>>>> **TWENTY THREE YEARS is the time it took for Li-Ion batteries to
>>>>> reach marketing stage.
>>>>
>>>> Yeah, I understood you the first time. But you continually bleat
>>>> about Al-Ion batteries as if they're here ready to solve the world's
>>>> problems now, and that's *not* the reality.
>>>>
>>>> Is it Trev?
>>>>
>>>>>> Why do you think that is?
>>>>>
>>>>> **All the problems have not yet been solved. Yet.
>>>>
>>>> Yeah, that's right. It's kinda like claiming that flying cars are
>>>> fantastic. Or, at least they *will* be when someone gets around to
>>>> making them work :)
>>>>
>>>>>>> However, whilst BEVs certainly have their place (thanks, in no
>>>>>>> small part to Australia's 3rd largest car importer - Tesla),
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Third largest car importer? Yeah, I don't think so....
>>>>>
>>>>> ** https://www.canstarblue.com.au/vehicles/top-selling-cars/
>>>>>
>>>>> Tesla Model Y - #3
>>>>
>>>> 3rd Most popular individual *model*, Trevor. Not 3rd largest car
>>>> importer based on total unit sales. MG sold more vehicles in
>>>> Australia in 2021 than Tesla, and according to this site here Tesla
>>>> doesn't even make the top ten:
>>>>   >
>>>> https://www.savings.com.au/car-loans/biggest-car-manufacturers-brands-australia
>>>>
>>>> Electric vehicles accounted for a paltry 1.7% of new car sales in
>>>> Australia in 2021, which is an increase of a whopping 230% on the
>>>> previous year, but it is *still* nothing but "niche" in the grand
>>>> scheme.
>>>>
>>>>>> Funny. I can recall saying this very thing some time ago and you
>>>>>> poo-pooed the idea claiming that fuel cell technology wasn't the
>>>>>> answer thanks to the difficultly and cost associated with setting
>>>>>> up the refuelling network.
>>>>>
>>>>> **Nope. I told you that operating an INTERNAL COMBUSTION engine on
>>>>> H2 was dumb. REALLY dumb.
>>>>
>>>> That was one comment you made, but that's not what I'm talking about.
>>>>
>>>>> I also told you that there was a grand total of ONE H2 fuel cell
>>>>> refuelling stations across Australia. OTOH, as of September 2021,
>>>>> there were more than 3,000 public chargers, 470 Superchargers and
>>>>> millions of households where EVs could charge their batteries. H2
>>>>> fuel cell technology has a long way to go in Australia to catch up
>>>>> with BEV chargers.
>>>>
>>>> Which is precisely why you claimed that fuel cells would never take
>>>> off. Your view seems to have changed somewhat in recent times.
>>>>>> I *still* maintain the belief that battery and hybrid electric
>>>>>> cars are nothing other than a novelty, and fuel cell will
>>>>>> eventually become the dominant zero emission standard.
>>>>>
>>>>> **Hybrid cars will dominate the market, along with BEVs in the near
>>>>> term.
>>>>
>>>> I doubt it. They're readily available now, and while they're
>>>> popularity is increasing their overall sales figures are
>>>> *remarkably* low.
>>>>
>>>>   Hybrids make a great deal of sense for many Australians. H2 fuel
>>>>> cell vehicles may or may not succeed. We need a lot more
>>>>> infrastructure. A LOT MORE. Certainly, in Japan, H2 fuel cell EVs
>>>>> will likely be dominant.
>>>>
>>>> The exact same thing can be said of plug in EV's. We don't have the
>>>> grid capacity to support them in anything other than small numbers,
>>>> and if we all switched to them tomorrow the country would implode.
>>>>
>>>> The problem this country faces is that we're fucked *either* way, as
>>>> we don't have the infrastructure in place to support *any* zero
>>>> emissions vehicles in large numbers which makes ridiculous policies
>>>> from lunatics like The Greens look even *more* mentally challenged.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Even more so when Australia's total contribution to the worlds CO2
>>> emissions is about 1.2% and emissions from private vehicles accounts
>>> for about 10% of that 1.2% so if we all switched to zero emission
>>> vehicles tomorrow it wouldn't make any difference.
>>>
>>
>> **EVERY SINGLE human on the planet needs to work to reduce CO2
>> emissions. That includes every single Chinese, American and Australia
>> citizens.
>>
>> No excuses.
>>
>>
> I'm not against making an effort to reduce emissions and that has
> already happened over time, what I am against is the BS that in
> Australia we need rush into EV's as if they are going to save us all,
> its just a huge scam.
>
>

**You seem to imagine that:

* The problem is not urgent. The planet it warming fast. If CO2 levels
reach approximately 500ppm, we are all fucked. NOTHING we do can save
our civilisation. Not a damned thing.
* That Australia still makes cars. We don't. We have to buy what others
build. Increasingly, that means EVs.
* EVs are not a scam. They are one means to reduce CO2 emissions.
Burning fossil fuels INCREASES emissions.

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On 10/10/2022 8:43 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 9/10/2022 6:18 pm, Noddy wrote:

> **Clearly you did, else you would not have asked the question.
>
>  but I think you fail to understand what you're saying. You
>> continually bleat about Al-Ion batteries saving the day as if they're
>> here doing it *now*!
>
> **I have NEVER stated that Al-Ion batteries are practical today. Not once.

No, but you factor them into virtually every vehicle related
environmental comment you make as if they're out there changing the
world as we speak.

They are not, and they won't be for some time. *If* they ever get here,
and *if* they perform anywhere near as fantastically well as you claim
they will they will be an absolutely amazing game changer. But at the
moment they remain an *if* and nothing more.

>>> Has battery technology improved over the past couple of decades? Or not?
>>
>> Yeah, it has. It's gone from being completely shithouse to pretty
>> average. So what?
>
> **You think Li-Ion batteries are "average"? In what sense?

Like all batteries, they're limited in their ability and they have a
finite life. I would have thought that was obvious.

>> Again, I refer to my original point of that being exactly the same as
>> saying flying cars will be awesome once they figure out how to make
>> them work.
>
> **Bad analogy. Try again. I will say once more: Research into Al-Ion
> batteries has been around for around 10 years. It was 23 years before
> Li-Ion batteries were ready for sale.

It's not a bad analogy at all Trevor. At the end of the day what you're
talking about here is an idea that would be fantastic *if* they can make
it work. It doesn't matter how long they've been researching it. They
haven't made it happen yet.

>>> **Sure. However, as I constantly remind you: Australia doesn't build
>>> any cars. We have to buy what everyone else builds. That is,
>>> increasingly, hybrids and EVs.
>>
>> And I remind you that that increase is *remarkably* slow.
>
> **And, once more: Australia no longer builds cars. We must buy what
> other people build. Increasingly, that means EVs of some kind.

It may do, but this isn't anything new. We've *always* bought imported
cars, and even when local car manufacturing was in full flight imported
car sales over the last 40 years were the dominant market segment.

EV sales are certainly on the increase, but *again* as we sit here in
October of 2022 they are incredibly niche. I expect that will change in
the coming decade, but I *also* expect that IC powered vehicles will
still be commonly available for many years to come.

>> At the moment the majority of the most popular vehicles on the market
>> are all diesels, and there is nothing on the horizon to suggest that
>> will change any time soon. In fact, I expect in not too distant future
>> you'll see a *lot* of manufacturers who jumped on the "Phase out
>> fossils" bandwagon a couple of years ago to announce that their
>> initial projections were a tad unrealistic and that they will be
>> staying with IC powered vehciles for some time yet.
>
> **This would be your 'flying car' moment. The evidence is such that EVs
> (and hybrids) are increasing market share across the plant.

They are in some parts of the world, certainly. Not so much here, but
then there are many factors at play here that make our market somewhat
unique. Not the least of which is cost.
>> Actually Trev, if you go back and read the original comments I never
>> said that hydrogen powered ICE's were the way of the future, but
>> rather that the idea should be investigated to see what could be made
>> of it.
>
> **And I demonstrated just how dumb an idea it was.
>
>> Companies like Toyota apparently thought along similar lines which is
>> why they put time and money into the idea,
>
> **Toyota do a lot of things that they never expect to put into
> production. Perhaps Toyota built their H2 ICE cars to demonstrate just
> how dumb the idea is.

Really? :)

>  and I believe some
>> agricultural engine manufacturers have already converted existing
>> engines to burn hydrogen and are either ready to do to market or have
>> done already.
>
> **Goal post shift duly noted. PASSENGER CARS will never burn H2. Trucks
> and farm equipment is quite different and may be viable for a variety of
> reasons. The value of the equipment is one of those reasons.

There is no goalpost shift here Trevor. I was just demonstrating that as
much as you believe burning hydrogen in IC engines is a "dumb idea",
there are in fact a number of practical uses for it as we sit here
today. I'd also suggest that the jury is still out on the idea of more
widespread use as we are in the very early stages of it's development.

20 years ago if I'd said to you that you that one day you would be able
to buy a car that came with adaptive cruise control, autonomous braking,
active lane guidance and a host of other smart features powered by a 2
litre engine IC engine using direct injection & variable valve timing to
produce over 200kW all for around 50 thousand bucks you would have
probably laughed your head off.

But guess what.....

>> Just imagine how quickly the power generating network would evaporate
>> up it's own arsehole if millions of EV owners all came home from work
>> at 6pm and plugs in their cars to charge the battery :)
>
> **27%.

So you say. And So I'm not believing you :)

>>
>> We *barely* have enough power generation now to get through an average
>> summer without brownouts and shutdowns. The idea is laughable.
>
> **Again: We need to find around 27% more electricity over the next 15
> years.

Trevor, for fuck's sake. This country currently has 20 million
registered vehicles on it's roads. Are you *seriously* suggesting that
if every one of those vehicles were swapped to EV's tomorrow and they
were all plugged in and charged every single night as they would need to
be, that *all* we would need to accommodate that would be an extra 27%
of power generation over what we currently produce now?

ROTFL :)

Sometimes I think you genuinely live in La-La Land. I dunno about your
part of the world, but here in Labor fucked Victoria our power
generation system is *so* inadequately bad that we *cannot* get through
a single summer where 100% of the *current* demands are met, with power
companies having to offer financial incentives for customers to switch
off their air conditioners so we don't fry the system with massive
brownouts and keep things running for emergency services.

Do the math Trev. A 240v powerpoint in Australia delivers 2.4Kw, and a
base model Tesla 3 with a flay battery takes 32 hours to charge at that
rate.

27%, huh? :)

>>> **That would be a lie™. I have consistently stated that H2 fuel cell
>>> vehicles will likely be VERY popular in Japan. Australia is different.
>>
>> I've never heard you talk about "Japan" at all, and I don't know why
>> you would as it's not relevant to us.
>
> **It is kinda relevant, given the following:
>
> * Japan has signed contracts to buy H2 generated in Australia.
> * Japan builds a substantial number of cars purchased by Australians.

Not sure I'm following you, but anyway....

>  The Japanese can do whatever they
>> like, but in having said that the needs of the average suburban
>> Australian aren't all that much different to the needs of anyone else
>> in any other metropolis I expect.
>>
>> If fuel cell vehicles can work in Japan, they can work anywhere else.
>
> **Sure. However, Australia has ONE H2 fuel cell refuelling station and
> thousands of EV chargers.

You keep on about this as if it's a situation that will never change :)

How many EV chargers existed 5 years ago. How many fuel cell refilling
stations will there be 5 years from now?

>>> We have ONE fuel cell refuelling station for the entire nation. We
>>> need THOUSANDS more before fuel cell vehicles can make any headway.
>>> You keep forgetting that BEV drivers can charge their cars at home in
>>> a pinch.
>>
>> In a pinch? 9 hours is hardly a "Pinch" :)
>
> **The average Australian drives 36km per day. Seems pretty easy to me.
> For the vast majority of drivers anyway.

Maybe.

>>
>>   H2 fuel cell cars require a dedicated refuelling station. Australia
>> has ONE.
>>
>> So what? How many EV recharging stations were there 5 years ago?
>
> **Millions. I will remind you: A BEV owner can plug his/her car into a
> power point. A fuel cell vehicle owner cannot.

On 10/10/2022 8:20 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 9/10/2022 8:56 pm, Daryl wrote:

>>> **Indeed. And it bears repeating. H2 ICE cars are dumb.
>>
>> Why?
>
> **Because to store the H2 at 10,000psi requires substantial space for
> fuel tanks. Re-filling those tanks is also difficult.

What's "difficult" about it? If the Japanese are able to implement fuel
cell use, what would prevent anyone else from doing so just as easily?

>> Only problem I see with them is the same problem as h2 fuel cells
>> which is a lack of places to refill at the moment.
>
> **Nope. H2 ICE vehicles MAY work for large trucks and farm equipment. It
> will never work for passenger cars. Not in any practical sense,
> anyway.Toyota proved that:
>
> https://www.dailysportscar.com/2021/04/28/hydrogen-powered-toyota-corolla-makes-its-first-run-at-fuji.html
>
>
> The car had a range of 50km (under race conditions), despite being
> fitted with 4 X 10,000psi fuel tanks.

Trevor, you understand that vehicles under "race conditions" use
*massive* amounts of fuel compared to day to day use around suburbia,
right?

--
--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

On 10/10/2022 8:02 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 9/10/2022 11:07 pm, Noddy wrote:
>> On 9/10/2022 3:10 pm, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>> On 9/10/2022 1:14 pm, Daryl wrote:
>>
>>
>>> **When I bought the Levorg 5 years ago (yikes!) I would have loved to
>>> buy a decent PHEV. Unfortunately, the sole choice back then was the
>>> Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV. Horrible thing. Too big, too cumbersome
>>> and handled like a large boat. Things have changed in the past 5
>>> years. Thankfully. PHEVs are a great solution for many Australian
>>> drivers. I figured that, had I bought the Mitsubishi, I would need to
>>> fuel it twice per year.
>>
>> So, clearly environmental concerns are not a big thing for you,
>
> **Incorrect.

Really? I find that strange, as despite you making a *lot* of noise
about it you seem to do very little about it when it comes to factoring
it into your daily life.

Bizarre really....

>  which is
>> kind of odd given your stance as an environmental campaigner. Then
>> again, you live in an old, inefficient house with no solar, which in
>> itself is strange for a guy who claims he's been a fan of
>> environmental science for 40 years :)
>
> **Rather than filling my roof with Solar panels, I have lots of trees to
> shade my home. I can't have both. I choose trees. My air con gets used
> around 10 days per year. I NEVER need to use heating.

Right.

>>> **In the case of the Mitsubishi, the price differential was not as
>>> substantial. Dunno about today.
>>
>> The Mitsubishi would have done the job for you Trev.
>
> **NO, it would not. It was a horrible thing to drive.

I'm sure it would have been a different drive to the Levorg. I'm not
sure that "horrible" is fair, but clearly didn't like it and that's your
choice. However the essential arithmetic is this:

Your requirement first and foremost if I remember correctly was that you
needed a wagon for work, and you had the choice of buying either a wagon
that met your "work" requirements and which was also an environmentally
responsible choice, or one that met your work requirements but offered
no environmental benefits and was simply an indulgence.

You chose indulgence over conscience, which is perfectly fine as it's a
free country and you can do what you like. However when you perpetually
comment about how "EVERY SINGLE human on the planet needs to work to
reduce CO2 emissions" yet you yourself apparently chose *not* to do that
it makes you look like just a *little* bit of a hypocrite.

Don't you think?

--
--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

On 10/10/2022 9:16 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 10/10/2022 9:09 am, Noddy wrote:

>>> **EVERY SINGLE human on the planet needs to work to reduce CO2
>>> emissions. That includes every single Chinese, American and Australia
>>> citizens.
>>>
>>> No excuses.
>>
>> Cool. When do *you* plan on starting?
>>
>>
>>
>
> **I started more than 45 years ago. I made a decision that reduced my
> CO2 footprint by a HUGE amount. I chose not to breed. People are the
> problem, so I decided not to add to that problem.

Riiiight.

There's logic in there somewhere. Fucked if I can see it though :)

--
--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

On 10/10/2022 10:04 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 10/10/2022 9:37 am, Daryl wrote:

>> I'm not against making an effort to reduce emissions and that has
>> already happened over time, what I am against is the BS that in
>> Australia we need rush into EV's as if they are going to save us all,
>> its just a huge scam.

Agreed. It's populist bullshit.
>
> **You seem to imagine that:
>
> * The problem is not urgent. The planet it warming fast. If CO2 levels
> reach approximately 500ppm, we are all fucked. NOTHING we do can save
> our civilisation. Not a damned thing.

On the other hand you seem to think that we are in control of this and
in fact there *is* something we can do.

> * That Australia still makes cars. We don't. We have to buy what others
> build. Increasingly, that means EVs.

IC powered cars will be here for many years to come.

> * EVs are not a scam. They are one means to reduce CO2 emissions.
> Burning fossil fuels INCREASES emissions.

EV's are *massively* over priced, they're largely tokenistic, and the
environmental "footprint" they occupy in the grand scheme isn't anywhere
near as planet friendly as people like to think they are.

You think they're a game changer Trev? Cool. Buy one. Oh, wait, you
didn't :)

--
--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 10/10/2022 9:09 am, Noddy wrote:
>> On 10/10/2022 8:46 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>> On 9/10/2022 1:21 pm, Daryl wrote:
>>
>>>> Even more so when Australia's total contribution to the worlds CO2
>>>> emissions is about 1.2% and emissions from private vehicles
>>>> accounts for about 10% of that 1.2% so if we all switched to zero
>>>> emission vehicles tomorrow it wouldn't make any difference.
>>>>
>>>
>>> **EVERY SINGLE human on the planet needs to work to reduce CO2
>>> emissions. That includes every single Chinese, American and
>>> Australia citizens.
>>>
>>> No excuses.
>>
>> Cool. When do *you* plan on starting?
>>
>>
>>
>
> **I started more than 45 years ago. I made a decision that reduced my
> CO2 footprint by a HUGE amount. I chose not to breed. People are the
> problem, so I decided not to add to that problem.
>
>

I'm sure that selfless decision made a huge impact on global warming..

--
https://tinyurl.com/Yosemite-Sam

FUCK PUTIN!!

On 10/10/2022 10:04 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 10/10/2022 9:37 am, Daryl wrote:
>> On 10/10/2022 8:46 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>> On 9/10/2022 1:21 pm, Daryl wrote:
>>>> On 9/10/2022 12:31 pm, Noddy wrote:
>>>>> On 9/10/2022 11:01 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>>> On 9/10/2022 10:06 am, Noddy wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> You know Trev, you've been singing the praises of Al-Ion battery
>>>>>>> technology and how it's going to change the world for some time
>>>>>>> now, like 5 years or more, yet in spite of all that praise they
>>>>>>> *still* haven't hit the market as a usable product.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> **TWENTY THREE YEARS is the time it took for Li-Ion batteries to
>>>>>> reach marketing stage.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yeah, I understood you the first time. But you continually bleat
>>>>> about Al-Ion batteries as if they're here ready to solve the
>>>>> world's problems now, and that's *not* the reality.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is it Trev?
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why do you think that is?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> **All the problems have not yet been solved. Yet.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yeah, that's right. It's kinda like claiming that flying cars are
>>>>> fantastic. Or, at least they *will* be when someone gets around to
>>>>> making them work :)
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> However, whilst BEVs certainly have their place (thanks, in no
>>>>>>>> small part to Australia's 3rd largest car importer - Tesla),
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Third largest car importer? Yeah, I don't think so....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ** https://www.canstarblue.com.au/vehicles/top-selling-cars/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tesla Model Y - #3
>>>>>
>>>>> 3rd Most popular individual *model*, Trevor. Not 3rd largest car
>>>>> importer based on total unit sales. MG sold more vehicles in
>>>>> Australia in 2021 than Tesla, and according to this site here Tesla
>>>>> doesn't even make the top ten:
>>>>>   >
>>>>> https://www.savings.com.au/car-loans/biggest-car-manufacturers-brands-australia
>>>>>
>>>>> Electric vehicles accounted for a paltry 1.7% of new car sales in
>>>>> Australia in 2021, which is an increase of a whopping 230% on the
>>>>> previous year, but it is *still* nothing but "niche" in the grand
>>>>> scheme.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Funny. I can recall saying this very thing some time ago and you
>>>>>>> poo-pooed the idea claiming that fuel cell technology wasn't the
>>>>>>> answer thanks to the difficultly and cost associated with setting
>>>>>>> up the refuelling network.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> **Nope. I told you that operating an INTERNAL COMBUSTION engine on
>>>>>> H2 was dumb. REALLY dumb.
>>>>>
>>>>> That was one comment you made, but that's not what I'm talking about.
>>>>>
>>>>>> I also told you that there was a grand total of ONE H2 fuel cell
>>>>>> refuelling stations across Australia. OTOH, as of September 2021,
>>>>>> there were more than 3,000 public chargers, 470 Superchargers and
>>>>>> millions of households where EVs could charge their batteries. H2
>>>>>> fuel cell technology has a long way to go in Australia to catch up
>>>>>> with BEV chargers.
>>>>>
>>>>> Which is precisely why you claimed that fuel cells would never take
>>>>> off. Your view seems to have changed somewhat in recent times.
>>>>>>> I *still* maintain the belief that battery and hybrid electric
>>>>>>> cars are nothing other than a novelty, and fuel cell will
>>>>>>> eventually become the dominant zero emission standard.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> **Hybrid cars will dominate the market, along with BEVs in the
>>>>>> near term.
>>>>>
>>>>> I doubt it. They're readily available now, and while they're
>>>>> popularity is increasing their overall sales figures are
>>>>> *remarkably* low.
>>>>>
>>>>>   Hybrids make a great deal of sense for many Australians. H2 fuel
>>>>>> cell vehicles may or may not succeed. We need a lot more
>>>>>> infrastructure. A LOT MORE. Certainly, in Japan, H2 fuel cell EVs
>>>>>> will likely be dominant.
>>>>>
>>>>> The exact same thing can be said of plug in EV's. We don't have the
>>>>> grid capacity to support them in anything other than small numbers,
>>>>> and if we all switched to them tomorrow the country would implode.
>>>>>
>>>>> The problem this country faces is that we're fucked *either* way,
>>>>> as we don't have the infrastructure in place to support *any* zero
>>>>> emissions vehicles in large numbers which makes ridiculous policies
>>>>> from lunatics like The Greens look even *more* mentally challenged.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Even more so when Australia's total contribution to the worlds CO2
>>>> emissions is about 1.2% and emissions from private vehicles accounts
>>>> for about 10% of that 1.2% so if we all switched to zero emission
>>>> vehicles tomorrow it wouldn't make any difference.
>>>>
>>>
>>> **EVERY SINGLE human on the planet needs to work to reduce CO2
>>> emissions. That includes every single Chinese, American and Australia
>>> citizens.
>>>
>>> No excuses.
>>>
>>>
>> I'm not against making an effort to reduce emissions and that has
>> already happened over time, what I am against is the BS that in
>> Australia we need rush into EV's as if they are going to save us all,
>> its just a huge scam.
>>
>>
>
> **You seem to imagine that:
>
> * The problem is not urgent. The planet it warming fast. If CO2 levels
> reach approximately 500ppm, we are all fucked. NOTHING we do can save
> our civilisation. Not a damned thing.

Depends on the way you view urgent, like I said our vehicle emissions
account for less than 0.5% of the worlds CO2 emissions, if every car in
Australia switched to EV's tomorrow it would make bugger all difference
to emissions whilst bankrupting the country, it just doesn't make sense
to rush around like headless chooks, more speed less haste.
The sky is NOT falling Chicken Little.

> * That Australia still makes cars. We don't. We have to buy what others
> build. Increasingly, that means EVs.

Possibly but as recently as last night I read that Ford have dropped the
idea of all their vehicles being electric, they have decided that the
market for IC Mustangs is so strong they will continue to make them, the
decision was driven by customer demand.
I also think that mostly because of the cost many people will just hang
onto older cars, mine are both 20yrs old and nothing wrong with either
of them, wife's car is 6yrs old and also unlikely to be replaced anytime
soon.

> * EVs are not a scam.

They are in that they are overly expensive, Elon Musk didn't become the
richest man from making rockets and people are being conned if they
think that overall from manufacture to scrap that EV's contribute
significantly less to CO2 emissions, the electricity needs to come from
somewhere as does the rare metals used in the motors and electronics

--
Daryl

On 10/10/2022 10:14 am, Noddy wrote:
> On 10/10/2022 8:20 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> On 9/10/2022 8:56 pm, Daryl wrote:
>
>>>> **Indeed. And it bears repeating. H2 ICE cars are dumb.
>>>
>>> Why?
>>
>> **Because to store the H2 at 10,000psi requires substantial space for
>> fuel tanks. Re-filling those tanks is also difficult.
>
> What's "difficult" about it? If the Japanese are able to implement fuel
> cell use, what would prevent anyone else from doing so just as easily?
>
>>> Only problem I see with them is the same problem as h2 fuel cells
>>> which is a lack of places to refill at the moment.
>>
>> **Nope. H2 ICE vehicles MAY work for large trucks and farm equipment.
>> It will never work for passenger cars. Not in any practical sense,
>> anyway.Toyota proved that:
>>
>> https://www.dailysportscar.com/2021/04/28/hydrogen-powered-toyota-corolla-makes-its-first-run-at-fuji.html
>>
>> The car had a range of 50km (under race conditions), despite being
>> fitted with 4 X 10,000psi fuel tanks.
>
> Trevor, you understand that vehicles under "race conditions" use
> *massive* amounts of fuel compared to day to day use around suburbia,
> right?
>
>
>
>
Sure do, the highly modified Toyota engines in Les's race cars use
around 30lts/100km on the track, in stock trim on the road they would
use about 1/3rd of that.

--
Daryl

On 10/10/2022 3:06 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 9/10/2022 7:31 pm, Clocky wrote:
>> On 9/10/2022 8:54 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>> On 9/10/2022 11:28 am, yosemite sam wrote:
>>>> Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>> On 9/10/2022 10:02 am, yosemite sam wrote:
>>>>>> Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>> On 8/10/2022 4:02 pm, Xeno wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 8/10/2022 3:48 pm, Clocky wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 8/10/2022 12:13 pm, yosemite sam wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://finance.yahoo.com/news/waterlogged-electric-cars-imploding-florida-172415203.html
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://nypost.com/2022/10/06/electric-vehicles-catching-fire-in-florida-after-hurricane-ian/
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Teslas" plural? That looks to be the same car in those 'stories'.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yep, looks like one car. Teslas do have a habit of incinerating
>>>>>>>> themselves and it doesn't always require a dunking. A decent
>>>>>>>> biff on the highway will do it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What are the actual numbers or is this just anti-EV bullshit?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1, so far.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> FWIW, EVs will not be taking over the world. At least not until
>>>>>>>> a new battery compound is tested and found to work much more
>>>>>>>> efficaciously than *Lithium*.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> **Points. That new battery compound already exits - Aluminium.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Points:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> * Al-Ion batteries can pack 3 times the energy into the same
>>>>>>> space as a Li-Ion battery.
>>>>>>> * Aluminium is cheaper, more plentiful and more recyclable than
>>>>>>> Lithium.
>>>>>>> * Aluminium does not catch fire when exposed to water.
>>>>>>> * There are numerous other advantages to Al-Ion batteries.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> but current EV's wont be able to use them since all have
>>>>>> non-replaceable batteries. during most of my lifetime electric
>>>>>> cars have been part of science fiction, now they're reality.
>>>>>
>>>>> **Bullshit.
>>>>
>>>> so which EV's have replaceable batteries? that would be none afaik.
>>>
>>> **ALL Teslas have replaceable batteries. I would expect that all the
>>> others do as well. Same as Toyota hybrids. Their batteries are
>>> replaceable too.
>>>
>>
>>
>> They have replaceable packs but not replaceable cells. It won't be
>> economically viable to replace the battery packs when the cars are 10
>> years old. EV's are an environmental disaster in the making.
>>
>>
>
> **Not really. Li-Ion batteries are recyclable:
>
> https://www.carsguide.com.au/ev/advice/electric-car-battery-recycling-explained-83200
>

At a financial and environmental cost.

>
> Additionally, let's say a purchasers owns a $150,000.00 Tesla. After a
> battery failure, that owner is likely to pay the $20,000.00 to replace
> the battery pack. I know that my mate, Adam, paid $23,000.00 to
> replace/repair the engine in his wife's S-Class Benz.
>

Let's say most EV's that will be sold will be in the vicinity of $16,000
to $80,000. Now would you spend $23k on a 10 year old car. No, in most
instances it won't be worth it.

> And, to nail the point home is the fact that Al-Ion batteries will be
> much easier and cheaper to recycle.
>

According to who?

> Even better, of course, is the fact that BEVs emit no CO2 when operating.
>
>

But produce a shit-tonne in the process of production and with a much
shorter lifespan that is not environmentally friendly.

--
keith on the 7 Oct 2021 wrote;
"He asserts that the claim is true, so, if
it is unproven, he is lying."

On 10/10/2022 6:07 am, Noddy wrote:
> On 10/10/2022 6:06 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> On 9/10/2022 7:31 pm, Clocky wrote:
>
>>> They have replaceable packs but not replaceable cells. It won't be
>>> economically viable to replace the battery packs when the cars are 10
>>> years old. EV's are an environmental disaster in the making.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> **Not really. Li-Ion batteries are recyclable:
>>
>> https://www.carsguide.com.au/ev/advice/electric-car-battery-recycling-explained-83200
>>
>>
>> Additionally, let's say a purchasers owns a $150,000.00 Tesla. After a
>> battery failure, that owner is likely to pay the $20,000.00 to replace
>> the battery pack. I know that my mate, Adam, paid $23,000.00 to
>> replace/repair the engine in his wife's S-Class Benz.
>
> Sounds like your mate got reamed for his replacement engine cost, but
> your point is solid. There is no way, in this country at least, that the
> value of *any* electric vehicle purchased new today is going to reach a
> point that by the time it's ten years old that a battery replacement
> would exceed the market value.
>

Nobody said anything about cars available today or exceeding market
value, can't you comprehend anything? My point, unqualified one, is that
it won't be economically viable to replace a battery pack on a 10 year
old EV. When these things arrive in numbers and as the prices keep
dropping this will be become more apparent, even to a year 9 flunky like
you.

>> And, to nail the point home is the fact that Al-Ion batteries will be
>> much easier and cheaper to recycle.
>
> And there you go again. Talking about Al-Ion batteries as if they're
> physically real :)
>
>> Even better, of course, is the fact that BEVs emit no CO2 when operating.
>
> When they're operating, no. But when they're being manufactured and
> charged, they emit shit-tonnes.
>
>
>

--
keith on the 7 Oct 2021 wrote;
"He asserts that the claim is true, so, if
it is unproven, he is lying."

On 10/10/2022 9:07 am, Noddy wrote:
> On 10/10/2022 6:06 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> On 9/10/2022 7:31 pm, Clocky wrote:
>
>>> They have replaceable packs but not replaceable cells. It won't be
>>> economically viable to replace the battery packs when the cars are 10
>>> years old. EV's are an environmental disaster in the making.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> **Not really. Li-Ion batteries are recyclable:
>>
>> https://www.carsguide.com.au/ev/advice/electric-car-battery-recycling-explained-83200
>>
>>
>> Additionally, let's say a purchasers owns a $150,000.00 Tesla. After a
>> battery failure, that owner is likely to pay the $20,000.00 to replace
>> the battery pack. I know that my mate, Adam, paid $23,000.00 to
>> replace/repair the engine in his wife's S-Class Benz.
>
> Sounds like your mate got reamed for his replacement engine cost, but
> your point is solid. There is no way, in this country at least, that the
> value of *any* electric vehicle purchased new today is going to reach a
> point that by the time it's ten years old that a battery replacement
> would exceed the market value.

You would be wrong! 10 year old Prius is at the age where a battery
replacement is not a valid proposition. And they are only $4k-$5k for
the pair. It's only the artificially inflated used car prices that are
helping to keep used Prius prices up. My mate's 2010 Prius was worth $5k
when it was 10 years old, now it's worth $10K.
>
>> And, to nail the point home is the fact that Al-Ion batteries will be
>> much easier and cheaper to recycle.
>
> And there you go again. Talking about Al-Ion batteries as if they're
> physically real :)

They are physically real, just not market ready yet. Big difference. In
fact, IIRC, GMG has started manufacture of Al-Ion batteries this year.
>
>> Even better, of course, is the fact that BEVs emit no CO2 when operating.
>
> When they're operating, no. But when they're being manufactured and
> charged, they emit shit-tonnes.

Only if the energy used to charge batteries is fossil fuel based. And
the Libtards made sure there was no alternative to fossil fuels on their
watch. Expect to see big changes in this space, and soon.

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On 10/10/2022 9:09 am, Noddy wrote:
> On 10/10/2022 8:46 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> On 9/10/2022 1:21 pm, Daryl wrote:
>
>>> Even more so when Australia's total contribution to the worlds CO2
>>> emissions is about 1.2% and emissions from private vehicles accounts
>>> for about 10% of that 1.2% so if we all switched to zero emission
>>> vehicles tomorrow it wouldn't make any difference.
>>>
>>
>> **EVERY SINGLE human on the planet needs to work to reduce CO2
>> emissions. That includes every single Chinese, American and Australia
>> citizens.
>>
>> No excuses.
>
> Cool. When do *you* plan on starting?
>
Please gaze into a mirror when asking *that* question!

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)