All Hallows Church or All Hallows' Church?

--
Jenny M Benson
Wrexham, UK

On 30/08/2022 16:39, Jenny M Benson wrote:
> All Hallows Church or All Hallows' Church?
>

Strictly, the latter. But when it was named there were no such things as
apostrophes so I don't think it really matters. Does it?

--
Kate B

On 30/08/2022 16:39, Jenny M Benson wrote:
> All Hallows Church or All Hallows' Church?
>
Whichever they prefer. That would be the polite answer, at least.

It depends on how they view the name. Is it the name of the church (and
any surroundings) or does the church belong (in some way) to All
Hallows? As in Coventry Cathedral (the name of the building) or
Coventry's cathedral (a building that belongs to Coventry).

I would guess that it should be with the apostrophe but that it might
have been dropped at some point for any one of a variety of reasons.

--
Ric

On 30/08/2022 17:09, Joe Kerr wrote:
> ... As in Coventry Cathedral (the name of the building) or
> Coventry's cathedral (a building that belongs to Coventry).
>
It was always known as Coventry Cathedral, but in fact there were two of
them...

Joe Kerr <joe_kerr@cheerful.com> wrote:
> On 30/08/2022 16:39, Jenny M Benson wrote:
>> All Hallows Church or All Hallows' Church?
>>
> Whichever they prefer. That would be the polite answer, at least.
>
> It depends on how they view the name. Is it the name of the church (and
> any surroundings) or does the church belong (in some way) to All
> Hallows? As in Coventry Cathedral (the name of the building) or
> Coventry's cathedral (a building that belongs to Coventry).
>
> I would guess that it should be with the apostrophe but that it might
> have been dropped at some point for any one of a variety of reasons.
>

Our local cemetery and crem in Reading is in All Hallows Road. No church
by that name anywhere in Reading. Definitely no apostrophe anywhere.
Cemetery wasn’t opened till the 1920s (from memory)

Sincerely Chris

On 30/08/2022 21:24, Chris wrote:
> Joe Kerr <joe_kerr@cheerful.com> wrote:
>> On 30/08/2022 16:39, Jenny M Benson wrote:
>>> All Hallows Church or All Hallows' Church?
>>>
>> Whichever they prefer. That would be the polite answer, at least.
>>
>> It depends on how they view the name. Is it the name of the church (and
>> any surroundings) or does the church belong (in some way) to All
>> Hallows? As in Coventry Cathedral (the name of the building) or
>> Coventry's cathedral (a building that belongs to Coventry).
>>
>> I would guess that it should be with the apostrophe but that it might
>> have been dropped at some point for any one of a variety of reasons.
>>
>
> Our local cemetery and crem in Reading is in All Hallows Road. No church
> by that name anywhere in Reading. Definitely no apostrophe anywhere.
> Cemetery wasn’t opened till the 1920s (from memory)
>
> Sincerely Chris

Is the similarly apostrophe-challenged Mays Lane Cemetery not still in
use?

Before we left Reading, we tidied up a grave in the /real/ Reading
Cemetery at the eponymous junction wherein lie my grandparents and a few
other relatives. Must be quite crowded. We put a pot plant there for
the Muntjacs to enjoy, and they clearly did.

But FWIW, IMO no apostrophe in All Hallows Road, or Kings Road. The
road doesn't belong to the King any more than London Road belongs to
London. It's just the name.

And FWIW IMO again, I'd like to see possessive apostrophes dropped,
they're unnecessary and potentially confusing. I mean, Jamie's Italian.

--
Cheers
Clive

BrritSki <rtilburyTAKEAWAY@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 30/08/2022 17:09, Joe Kerr wrote:
>> ... As in Coventry Cathedral (the name of the building) or
>> Coventry's cathedral (a building that belongs to Coventry).
>>
> It was always known as Coventry Cathedral, but in fact there were two of
> them...
>

After the first one, they always a spired to having a second.

--
Toodle Pip, Mike McMillan

On Tue, 30 Aug 2022 16:39:01 +0100, Jenny M Benson <NemoNews@hotmail.co.uk>
scrawled in the dust...

>All Hallows Church or All Hallows' Church?

Yes.
As an apostrophe monitor elsewhere, my favoured syntax is, the Church of
All Hallows.

Strangely, those who do use apostrophes do not apply 's to the place name
when describing a church as [Village] Church

Road names vary and I will consult the Royal Mail database, the maps (often
'wrong') and the street plates - many councils have abandoned apostrophes
on signs, locals (and passing pedants) don't always agree with the council
and make their own amendments.
--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959

On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 10:33:05 +0100, Penny <spam@labyrinth.freeuk.com>
scrawled in the dust...

>Road names vary and I will consult the Royal Mail database, the maps (often
>'wrong')

The recent revision of OS online large scale maps now render street names
which include apostrophes as i.e. "St Mary'S Lane".
--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959

On 31/08/2022 10:33, Penny wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Aug 2022 16:39:01 +0100, Jenny M Benson <NemoNews@hotmail.co.uk>
> scrawled in the dust...
>
>> All Hallows Church or All Hallows' Church?
>
> Yes.
> As an apostrophe monitor elsewhere, my favoured syntax is, the Church of
> All Hallows.
>
> Strangely, those who do use apostrophes do not apply 's to the place name
> when describing a church as [Village] Church
>
> Road names vary and I will consult the Royal Mail database, the maps (often
> 'wrong') and the street plates - many councils have abandoned apostrophes
> on signs, locals (and passing pedants) don't always agree with the council
> and make their own amendments.

Apostrophe monitor? How sweet. Apparently I'm a grammar fascist.
Steve

On 31/08/2022 13:00, steve hague wrote:
> On 31/08/2022 10:33, Penny wrote:
>> On Tue, 30 Aug 2022 16:39:01 +0100, Jenny M Benson
>> <NemoNews@hotmail.co.uk>
>> scrawled in the dust...
>>
>>> All Hallows Church or All Hallows' Church?
>>
>> Yes.
>> As an apostrophe monitor elsewhere, my favoured syntax is, the Church of
>> All Hallows.
>>
>> Strangely, those who do use apostrophes do not apply 's to the place name
>> when describing a church as [Village] Church
>>
>> Road names vary and I will consult the Royal Mail database, the maps
>> (often
>> 'wrong') and the street plates - many councils have abandoned apostrophes
>> on signs, locals (and passing pedants) don't always agree with the
>> council
>> and make their own amendments.
>
> Apostrophe monitor? How sweet. Apparently I'm a grammar fascist.
> Steve
>
Isn't an Apostrophe Monitor similar to a Komodo Dragon?

--
Ric

On 31/08/2022 13:11, Joe Kerr wrote:
> On 31/08/2022 13:00, steve hague wrote:
>> On 31/08/2022 10:33, Penny wrote:
>>> On Tue, 30 Aug 2022 16:39:01 +0100, Jenny M Benson
>>> <NemoNews@hotmail.co.uk>
>>> scrawled in the dust...
>>>
>>>> All Hallows Church or All Hallows' Church?
>>>
>>> Yes.
>>> As an apostrophe monitor elsewhere, my favoured syntax is, the Church of
>>> All Hallows.
>>>
>>> Strangely, those who do use apostrophes do not apply 's to the place
>>> name
>>> when describing a church as [Village] Church
>>>
>>> Road names vary and I will consult the Royal Mail database, the maps
>>> (often
>>> 'wrong') and the street plates - many councils have abandoned
>>> apostrophes
>>> on signs, locals (and passing pedants) don't always agree with the
>>> council
>>> and make their own amendments.
>>
>> Apostrophe monitor? How sweet. Apparently I'm a grammar fascist.
>> Steve
>>
> Isn't an Apostrophe Monitor similar to a Komodo Dragon?
>

Or a Commado Dragon (at risk of over explaining your joke)

john

On 31/08/2022 14:06, John Ashby wrote:
> On 31/08/2022 13:11, Joe Kerr wrote:
>> On 31/08/2022 13:00, steve hague wrote:
>>> On 31/08/2022 10:33, Penny wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 30 Aug 2022 16:39:01 +0100, Jenny M Benson
>>>> <NemoNews@hotmail.co.uk>
>>>> scrawled in the dust...
>>>>
>>>>> All Hallows Church or All Hallows' Church?
>>>>
>>>> Yes.
>>>> As an apostrophe monitor elsewhere, my favoured syntax is, the
>>>> Church of
>>>> All Hallows.
>>>>
>>>> Strangely, those who do use apostrophes do not apply 's to the place
>>>> name
>>>> when describing a church as [Village] Church
>>>>
>>>> Road names vary and I will consult the Royal Mail database, the maps
>>>> (often
>>>> 'wrong') and the street plates - many councils have abandoned
>>>> apostrophes
>>>> on signs, locals (and passing pedants) don't always agree with the
>>>> council
>>>> and make their own amendments.
>>>
>>> Apostrophe monitor? How sweet. Apparently I'm a grammar fascist.
>>> Steve
>>>
>> Isn't an Apostrophe Monitor similar to a Komodo Dragon?
>>
>
> Or a Commado Dragon (at risk of over explaining your joke)
>
> john
>

Or a Comma Chameleon?

--
Cheers
Clive

On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 13:00:13 +0100, steve hague <stevehague82@gmail.com>
scrawled in the dust...

>On 31/08/2022 10:33, Penny wrote:
>> On Tue, 30 Aug 2022 16:39:01 +0100, Jenny M Benson <NemoNews@hotmail.co.uk>
>> scrawled in the dust...
>>
>>> All Hallows Church or All Hallows' Church?
>>
>> Yes.
>> As an apostrophe monitor elsewhere, my favoured syntax is, the Church of
>> All Hallows.
>>
>> Strangely, those who do use apostrophes do not apply 's to the place name
>> when describing a church as [Village] Church
>>
>> Road names vary and I will consult the Royal Mail database, the maps (often
>> 'wrong') and the street plates - many councils have abandoned apostrophes
>> on signs, locals (and passing pedants) don't always agree with the council
>> and make their own amendments.
>
>Apostrophe monitor? How sweet. Apparently I'm a grammar fascist.

They usually call me a typo fairy - some got very upset when they saw the
words 'spelling error' - so they are all typos now.
--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959

Penny <spam@labyrinth.freeuk.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Aug 2022 16:39:01 +0100, Jenny M Benson <NemoNews@hotmail.co.uk>
> scrawled in the dust...
>
>> All Hallows Church or All Hallows' Church?
>
> Yes.
> As an apostrophe monitor elsewhere, my favoured syntax is, the Church of
> All Hallows.
>
> Strangely, those who do use apostrophes do not apply 's to the place name
> when describing a church as [Village] Church
>
> Road names vary and I will consult the Royal Mail database, the maps (often
> 'wrong') and the street plates - many councils have abandoned apostrophes
> on signs, locals (and passing pedants) don't always agree with the council
> and make their own amendments.

Back in the late seventies, there was quite a lot of heat, angst and
concern when it was proposed to name a road after a late Mayor in
Wokingham. The nameplate is still there (as far as I know) ‘Alderman Willy
Close’. ;-)

--
Toodle Pip, Mike McMillan

Joe Kerr <joe_kerr@cheerful.com> wrote:
> On 31/08/2022 13:00, steve hague wrote:
>> On 31/08/2022 10:33, Penny wrote:
>>> On Tue, 30 Aug 2022 16:39:01 +0100, Jenny M Benson
>>> <NemoNews@hotmail.co.uk>
>>> scrawled in the dust...
>>>
>>>> All Hallows Church or All Hallows' Church?
>>>
>>> Yes.
>>> As an apostrophe monitor elsewhere, my favoured syntax is, the Church of
>>> All Hallows.
>>>
>>> Strangely, those who do use apostrophes do not apply 's to the place name
>>> when describing a church as [Village] Church
>>>
>>> Road names vary and I will consult the Royal Mail database, the maps
>>> (often
>>> 'wrong') and the street plates - many councils have abandoned apostrophes
>>> on signs, locals (and passing pedants) don't always agree with the
>>> council
>>> and make their own amendments.
>>
>> Apostrophe monitor? How sweet. Apparently I'm a grammar fascist.
>> Steve
>>
> Isn't an Apostrophe Monitor similar to a Komodo Dragon?
>

There is also a Mornington Monitor, but it is difficult to find as I think
it went underground.

--
Toodle Pip, Mike McMillan

Penny <spam@labyrinth.freeuk.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 13:00:13 +0100, steve hague <stevehague82@gmail.com>
> scrawled in the dust...
>
>> On 31/08/2022 10:33, Penny wrote:
>>> On Tue, 30 Aug 2022 16:39:01 +0100, Jenny M Benson <NemoNews@hotmail.co.uk>
>>> scrawled in the dust...
>>>
>>>> All Hallows Church or All Hallows' Church?
>>>
>>> Yes.
>>> As an apostrophe monitor elsewhere, my favoured syntax is, the Church of
>>> All Hallows.
>>>
>>> Strangely, those who do use apostrophes do not apply 's to the place name
>>> when describing a church as [Village] Church
>>>
>>> Road names vary and I will consult the Royal Mail database, the maps (often
>>> 'wrong') and the street plates - many councils have abandoned apostrophes
>>> on signs, locals (and passing pedants) don't always agree with the council
>>> and make their own amendments.
>>
>> Apostrophe monitor? How sweet. Apparently I'm a grammar fascist.
>
> They usually call me a typo fairy - some got very upset when they saw the
> words 'spelling error' - so they are all typos now.

Not TWATBILI’s?

--
Toodle Pip, Mike McMillan

Clive Arthur <clive@nowaytoday.co.uk> wrote:
> On 30/08/2022 21:24, Chris wrote:
>> Joe Kerr <joe_kerr@cheerful.com> wrote:
>>> On 30/08/2022 16:39, Jenny M Benson wrote:
>>>> All Hallows Church or All Hallows' Church?
>>>>
>>> Whichever they prefer. That would be the polite answer, at least.
>>>
>>> It depends on how they view the name. Is it the name of the church (and
>>> any surroundings) or does the church belong (in some way) to All
>>> Hallows? As in Coventry Cathedral (the name of the building) or
>>> Coventry's cathedral (a building that belongs to Coventry).
>>>
>>> I would guess that it should be with the apostrophe but that it might
>>> have been dropped at some point for any one of a variety of reasons.
>>>
>>
>> Our local cemetery and crem in Reading is in All Hallows Road. No church
>> by that name anywhere in Reading. Definitely no apostrophe anywhere.
>> Cemetery wasn’t opened till the 1920s (from memory)
>>
>> Sincerely Chris
>
> Is the similarly apostrophe-challenged Mays Lane Cemetery not still in
> use?
>
> Before we left Reading, we tidied up a grave in the /real/ Reading
> Cemetery at the eponymous junction wherein lie my grandparents and a few
> other relatives. Must be quite crowded. We put a pot plant there for
> the Muntjacs to enjoy, and they clearly did.
>
> But FWIW, IMO no apostrophe in All Hallows Road, or Kings Road. The
> road doesn't belong to the King any more than London Road belongs to
> London. It's just the name.
>
> And FWIW IMO again, I'd like to see possessive apostrophes dropped,
> they're unnecessary and potentially confusing. I mean, Jamie's Italian.
>

Yup, Mays Lane very much in use. BBQ rats know/have met our late neighbour
Roger, non-netted umrat he was and his wofe Vicenta who was baffled by the
whole Archers’ thing. Occasionally I wander down there to keep Vicenta
company still.

“Real” Reading cemetery aka East Reading Cemetery and its infamous
muntjaks. Its getting a makeover!

I quite likely have ancestors there as my Howman great grandparents and
siblings lived n Liverpool Rd/London Rd, though I only knew an elderly
female named Gertie and was never told exactly who she was. My only Howman
cousin didn’t know who she was. Likely because I happened to be living
with granny and grandpa for the short period 1961 to whenever she died or
went elsewhere. You wouldn’t do it now. A ten year old given a doll with
hand knitted clothes. I named it Valerie after a school friend of the
time!

Sincerely Chris

Mike McMillan <toodle.pip1@virginmedia.com> wrote:
> Penny <spam@labyrinth.freeuk.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 30 Aug 2022 16:39:01 +0100, Jenny M Benson <NemoNews@hotmail.co.uk>
>> scrawled in the dust...
>>
>>> All Hallows Church or All Hallows' Church?
>>
>> Yes.
>> As an apostrophe monitor elsewhere, my favoured syntax is, the Church of
>> All Hallows.
>>
>> Strangely, those who do use apostrophes do not apply 's to the place name
>> when describing a church as [Village] Church
>>
>> Road names vary and I will consult the Royal Mail database, the maps (often
>> 'wrong') and the street plates - many councils have abandoned apostrophes
>> on signs, locals (and passing pedants) don't always agree with the council
>> and make their own amendments.
>
> Back in the late seventies, there was quite a lot of heat, angst and
> concern when it was proposed to name a road after a late Mayor in
> Wokingham. The nameplate is still there (as far as I know) ‘Alderman Willy
> Close’. ;-)
>

Certainly is. *Alderman Willey* Close

Sincerely Chris

On 31/08/2022 10:33, Penny wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Aug 2022 16:39:01 +0100, Jenny M Benson <NemoNews@hotmail.co.uk>
> scrawled in the dust...
>
>> All Hallows Church or All Hallows' Church?
>
> Yes.
> As an apostrophe monitor elsewhere, my favoured syntax is, the Church of
> All Hallows.
>
> Strangely, those who do use apostrophes do not apply 's to the place name
> when describing a church as [Village] Church
>
> Road names vary and I will consult the Royal Mail database, the maps (often
> 'wrong') and the street plates - many councils have abandoned apostrophes
> on signs, locals (and passing pedants) don't always agree with the council
> and make their own amendments.

Some years ago, I was amused (once my blood pressure had subsided) when
my bank completely lost my local branch and tried to deny its existence.
I was trying to phone the branch to arrange to retrieve my house deeds
before I moved house a few years ago and, of course, the only phone
number published anywhere is the central one. The person I spoke to was
completely unable to find any reference to Bishop's Waltham[1] branch in
their phone directory. I forget now exactly how they tracked it down
for me but the branch, when I finally got through to them, weren't too
surprised as the apostrophe frequently caused confusion. People either
missed it off altogether or they assumed multiple bishops.

Sadly, this confusion will soon become a thing of the past, as the
branch is slated for closure in the new year :(

[1] I think this was the officially approved form of the name but I
could be wrong!

--
Best wishes, Serena
Any society that surrenders a little bit of freedom for a little bit of
security, deserves neither and will lose both (Benjamin Franklin)

Serena Blanchflower <nospam@blanchflower.me.uk> wrote:
> On 31/08/2022 10:33, Penny wrote:
>> On Tue, 30 Aug 2022 16:39:01 +0100, Jenny M Benson <NemoNews@hotmail.co.uk>
>> scrawled in the dust...
>>
>>> All Hallows Church or All Hallows' Church?
>>
>> Yes.
>> As an apostrophe monitor elsewhere, my favoured syntax is, the Church of
>> All Hallows.
>>
>> Strangely, those who do use apostrophes do not apply 's to the place name
>> when describing a church as [Village] Church
>>
>> Road names vary and I will consult the Royal Mail database, the maps (often
>> 'wrong') and the street plates - many councils have abandoned apostrophes
>> on signs, locals (and passing pedants) don't always agree with the council
>> and make their own amendments.
>
>
> Some years ago, I was amused (once my blood pressure had subsided) when
> my bank completely lost my local branch and tried to deny its existence.
> I was trying to phone the branch to arrange to retrieve my house deeds
> before I moved house a few years ago and, of course, the only phone
> number published anywhere is the central one. The person I spoke to was
> completely unable to find any reference to Bishop's Waltham[1] branch in
> their phone directory. I forget now exactly how they tracked it down
> for me but the branch, when I finally got through to them, weren't too
> surprised as the apostrophe frequently caused confusion. People either
> missed it off altogether or they assumed multiple bishops.
>
> Sadly, this confusion will soon become a thing of the past, as the
> branch is slated for closure in the new year :(
>
>
> [1] I think this was the officially approved form of the name but I
> could be wrong!
>

We wanted to redeem a tidy sum of money from an account we had had with
Halifax via Lloyds TSB some years ago; when we put in a request and there
was a considerable delay in any reply, I contacted our local branch again
and was told there was no such account! I then looked out the original
policy and all the details then returned to the branch; after some
considerable delay and consternation on their part, they found they ‘did’
have such an account. Their own system on their own computers and they
hadn’t found the account as they didn’t think it was necessary to enter the
leading zeros on the account number initially!!! Doh!

--
Toodle Pip, Mike McMillan

On 31.8.22 17:01, Serena Blanchflower wrote:
> The person I spoke to was completely unable to find any reference to
> Bishop's Waltham[1]

If the bank concerned was Lloyds then I can record that it was my
father's banking house from about 1958 until he died.

My first bank branch was in Woolston but has been closed for some time.
Sadly banks do not understand why they need branches and will
eventually forget why they exist.

--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
https://tinyurl.com/KRWpics

On 31.8.22 17:39, Mike McMillan wrote:
> Their own system on their own computers and they
> hadn’t found the account as they didn’t think it was necessary to enter the
> leading zeros on the account number

Some years after I opened my account with Lloyds they found that they
did not have long enough account codes to work with the rest of the
banking systems and so my account number grew from 34xxxx to 0034xxxx.

I hope you will understand my reluctance to publish the full number.

--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
https://tinyurl.com/KRWpics

On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 14:45:44 +0100, Penny <spam@labyrinth.freeuk.com>
wrote:

>On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 13:00:13 +0100, steve hague <stevehague82@gmail.com>
>scrawled in the dust...
>
>>On 31/08/2022 10:33, Penny wrote:
>>> On Tue, 30 Aug 2022 16:39:01 +0100, Jenny M Benson <NemoNews@hotmail.co.uk>
>>> scrawled in the dust...
>>>
>>>> All Hallows Church or All Hallows' Church?
>>>
>>> Yes.
>>> As an apostrophe monitor elsewhere, my favoured syntax is, the Church of
>>> All Hallows.
>>>
>>> Strangely, those who do use apostrophes do not apply 's to the place name
>>> when describing a church as [Village] Church
>>>
>>> Road names vary and I will consult the Royal Mail database, the maps (often
>>> 'wrong') and the street plates - many councils have abandoned apostrophes
>>> on signs, locals (and passing pedants) don't always agree with the council
>>> and make their own amendments.
>>
>>Apostrophe monitor? How sweet. Apparently I'm a grammar fascist.
>
>They usually call me a typo fairy - some got very upset when they saw the
>words 'spelling error' - so they are all typos now.

Not fontos then? He enquired, alluding to another conversation.

Nick

On 31-Aug-22 22:17, krw wrote:
> On 31.8.22 17:39, Mike McMillan wrote:
>> Their own system on their own computers and they
>> hadn’t found the account as they didn’t think it was necessary to
>> enter the
>> leading zeros on the account number
>
> Some years after I opened my account with Lloyds they found that they
> did not have long enough account codes to work with the rest of the
> banking systems and so my account number grew from 34xxxx to 0034xxxx.
>
> I hope you will understand my reluctance to publish the full number.
>
When Wofe and I first opened a joint account, 'they' decided it should
carry both of our full names, thus:

"Mr. John Snodgrass and Mrs. Emily Gertrude Snodgrass"[1]

(I hope you will understand my reluctance to publish the correct names)

Later, the bank placed a limit on the number of characters that the
"NAME" field could contain.
Ruthlessly truncated, we became:

"Mr. John Snodgrass and Mrs. Emily Gert"

I can't now recall if Wofe was called upon to prove that she was
"Mrs. Emily Gert".

[1] Sexist places banks. This was in the days when a wife would be
required to show proof that her husband agreed to her opening an account.

--
Sam Plusnet