The Verkehrsverbund Rhein-Neckar has re-vamped their offerings for
annual season tickets in the Mannheim metropolitain area:

"https://www.vrn.de/tickets/ticketuebersicht/jahreskarte/rhein-neckar-ticket/index.html"

1) Rhein-Neckar-Ticket at a price of €92 per month is the traditional
"all-year rover"
2) Rhein-Neckar-Ticket-Plus at a price of €111 per month allows to
take four friends in the evening and on weekends (i.e. the "weekend
bonus" is valued at €20 per month)
3) Rhein-Neckar-Ticket-Flex at a price of €66 per month allows use on 8
working days per month (activate in mobile app before you leave) plus
the "weekend bonus" for the ticket-owner and 4 guests.

So the offerings are clearly aimed stronger than before towards leasure
travel.

Rolf

Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
> The Verkehrsverbund Rhein-Neckar has re-vamped their offerings for
> annual season tickets in the Mannheim metropolitain area:
>
> "https://www.vrn.de/tickets/ticketuebersicht/jahreskarte/rhein-neckar-ticket/index.html"
>
> 1) Rhein-Neckar-Ticket at a price of €92 per month is the traditional
> "all-year rover"
> 2) Rhein-Neckar-Ticket-Plus at a price of €111 per month allows to
> take four friends in the evening and on weekends (i.e. the "weekend
> bonus" is valued at €20 per month)
> 3) Rhein-Neckar-Ticket-Flex at a price of €66 per month allows use on 8
> working days per month (activate in mobile app before you leave) plus
> the "weekend bonus" for the ticket-owner and 4 guests.
>
> So the offerings are clearly aimed stronger than before towards leasure
> travel.
>

I wonder if the German Covid-recovery experience is similar to the UK?
Here, before the Omicron wave, leisure rail travel had recovered to about
90% of previous levels. Commuting was at 50-60%, and may never get back to
100%, but business travell had largely zoomed off, and was down to only
about 30% of previous levels.

Am 21.02.2022 um 17:25 schrieb Recliner:
> Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>> The Verkehrsverbund Rhein-Neckar has re-vamped their offerings for
>> annual season tickets in the Mannheim metropolitain area:
>>
>> "https://www.vrn.de/tickets/ticketuebersicht/jahreskarte/rhein-neckar-ticket/index.html"
>> >> 1) Rhein-Neckar-Ticket at a price of €92 per month is the traditional
>> "all-year rover"

>> 2) Rhein-Neckar-Ticket-Plus at a price of €111
>> per month allows to take four friends in the evening and on
>> weekends (i.e. the "weekend bonus" is valued at €20 per month)

>> 3) Rhein-Neckar-Ticket-Flex at a price of €66 per month allows use on
>> 8 working days per month (activate in mobile app before you leave)
>> plus the "weekend bonus" for the ticket-owner and 4 guests.
>>
>> So the offerings are clearly aimed stronger than before towards
>> leasure travel.
>
> I wonder if the German Covid-recovery experience is similar to the
> UK? Here, before the Omicron wave, leisure rail travel had recovered
> to about 90% of previous levels. Commuting was at 50-60%, and may
> never get back to 100%, but business travell had largely zoomed off,
> and was down to only about 30% of previous levels.

I speculate it's similar. Total (Mobil-phone measured) mobility seemed
back to pre-Covid levels. Business travel is not relevant for
"metropolitain rover" tickets, that's more IC and ICE long-distance
travel.
Commuting in the IT industry is close to zero (I shifted my working by
one hour to 10:00 to 18:30 plus mostly commute by bicycle so I use less
busy trains), in most other industries it's probably back to normal but
I can't really tell.

Rolf

On 21/02/2022 14:47, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> The Verkehrsverbund Rhein-Neckar has re-vamped their offerings for annual season tickets in the Mannheim metropolitain area:
>
> "https://www.vrn.de/tickets/ticketuebersicht/jahreskarte/rhein-neckar-ticket/index.html"
>
> 1) Rhein-Neckar-Ticket at a price of €92 per month is the traditional "all-year rover"
> 2)   Rhein-Neckar-Ticket-Plus at a price of €111 per month allows to take four friends in the evening and on weekends (i.e. the "weekend bonus" is valued at €20 per month)
> 3) Rhein-Neckar-Ticket-Flex at a price of €66 per month allows use on 8 working days per month (activate in mobile app before you leave) plus the "weekend bonus" for the ticket-owner and 4 guests.
>
> So the offerings are clearly aimed stronger than before towards leasure travel.

I have long envied the ticket prices you pay in Germany. Some years ago on holiday there I discovered that for about the same as I paid for a standard class annual ticket in the UK just to commute to work I could have bought a ticket valid on any train in Germany for a year - and 1st Class too.

--
Clive Page

In message <j7ke2jF450jU1@mid.individual.net>, at 15:33:39 on Tue, 22
Feb 2022, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:

>On 21/02/2022 14:47, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>> The Verkehrsverbund Rhein-Neckar has re-vamped their offerings for
>>annual season tickets in the Mannheim metropolitain area:

>>
>>"https://www.vrn.de/tickets/ticketuebersicht/jahreskarte/rhein-neckar-t
>>icket/index.html"

>> 1) Rhein-Neckar-Ticket at a price of €92 per month is the
>>traditional "all-year rover"

>> 2)   Rhein-Neckar-Ticket-Plus at a price of €111 per month allows
>>to take four friends in the evening and on weekends (i.e. the "weekend
>>bonus" is valued at €20 per month)

>> 3) Rhein-Neckar-Ticket-Flex at a price of €66 per month allows use
>>on 8 working days per month (activate in mobile app before you leave)
>>plus the "weekend bonus" for the ticket-owner and 4 guests.
>> So the offerings are clearly aimed stronger than before towards
>>leasure travel.
>
>I have long envied the ticket prices you pay in Germany. Some years
>ago on holiday there I discovered that for about the same as I paid for
>a standard class annual ticket in the UK just to commute to work I
>could have bought a ticket valid on any train in Germany for a year -
>and 1st Class too.

Yes, if the taxpayers are prepared to subsidise it to the hilt (80% in
..CH I think) anything is possible.
--
Roland Perry

Am 22.02.2022 um 17:55 schrieb Roland Perry:
> In message <j7ke2jF450jU1@mid.individual.net>, at 15:33:39 on Tue, 22
> Feb 2022, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
>
>> On 21/02/2022 14:47, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>>> The Verkehrsverbund Rhein-Neckar has re-vamped their offerings for
>>> annual season tickets in the Mannheim metropolitain area:
>
>>>
>>> "https://www.vrn.de/tickets/ticketuebersicht/jahreskarte/rhein-neckar-t
>>> icket/index.html"
>
>>>  1) Rhein-Neckar-Ticket at a price of €92 per month is the
>>> traditional "all-year rover"
>
>>> 2)   Rhein-Neckar-Ticket-Plus at a price of €111 per month allows to
>>> take four friends in the evening and on weekends (i.e. the "weekend
>>> bonus" is valued at €20 per month)
>
>>> 3) Rhein-Neckar-Ticket-Flex at a price of €66 per month allows use on
>>> 8 working days per month (activate in mobile app before you leave)
>>> plus the "weekend bonus" for the ticket-owner and 4 guests.
>>>  So the offerings are clearly aimed stronger than before towards
>>> leasure travel.
>>
>> I have long envied the ticket prices you pay in Germany.  Some years
>> ago on holiday there I discovered that for about the same as I paid
>> for a standard class annual ticket in the UK just to commute to work I
>> could have bought a ticket valid on any train in Germany for a year -
>> and 1st Class too.
>
> Yes, if the taxpayers are prepared to subsidise it to the hilt (80% in
> .CH I think) anything is possible.

Taxpayers subsidize road transport to the hilt, so if there is a real
aim to shift from road transport to rail, subsidies should be comparable.

Germany provides local transport at comparable prices for bus and train
(in most regions a local train ticket costs the same as a bus ticket for
the same route). Intercity travel is nominally supposed to self-financing.

Rolf

In message <sv36as$eur$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:25:47 on Tue, 22 Feb
2022, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
>Am 22.02.2022 um 17:55 schrieb Roland Perry:
>> In message <j7ke2jF450jU1@mid.individual.net>, at 15:33:39 on Tue, 22
>>Feb 2022, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
>>
>>> On 21/02/2022 14:47, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>>>> The Verkehrsverbund Rhein-Neckar has re-vamped their offerings for
>>>>annual season tickets in the Mannheim metropolitain area:
>>
>>>>
>>>> "https://www.vrn.de/tickets/ticketuebersicht/jahreskarte/rhein-neckar-t
>>>> icket/index.html"
>>
>>>>  1) Rhein-Neckar-Ticket at a price of €92 per month is the
>>>>traditional "all-year rover"
>>
>>>> 2)   Rhein-Neckar-Ticket-Plus at a price of €111 per month
>>>>allows to take four friends in the evening and on weekends (i.e.
>>>>the "weekend bonus" is valued at €20 per month)
>>
>>>> 3) Rhein-Neckar-Ticket-Flex at a price of €66 per month allows
>>>>use on 8 working days per month (activate in mobile app before you
>>>>leave) plus the "weekend bonus" for the ticket-owner and 4 guests.
>>>>  So the offerings are clearly aimed stronger than before towards
>>>>leasure travel.
>>>
>>> I have long envied the ticket prices you pay in Germany.  Some
>>>years ago on holiday there I discovered that for about the same as I
>>>for a standard class annual ticket in the UK just to commute to work
>>>I could have bought a ticket valid on any train in Germany for a
>>>year - and 1st Class too.

>> Yes, if the taxpayers are prepared to subsidise it to the hilt (80%
>>in .CH I think) anything is possible.
>
>Taxpayers subsidize road transport to the hilt,

In .CH? It's not the case in .UK

>so if there is a real aim to shift from road transport to rail,
>subsidies should be comparable.

For almost a generation now, the policy objective for UK Railways is
that overall they don't require a subsidy.

Some regional services will always require a subsidy, but that comes
from shifting funds from commuters in the London region paying
noticeably *more* than it costs to provide the service.

>Germany provides local transport at comparable prices for bus and train
>(in most regions a local train ticket costs the same as a bus ticket
>for the same route). Intercity travel is nominally supposed to
>self-financing.

How do they unpick the financing of the infrastructure that's shared
between subsidised local services and potentially self-financing
InterCity?
--
Roland Perry

Am 22.02.2022 um 19:04 schrieb Roland Perry:
> In message <sv36as$eur$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:25:47 on Tue, 22 Feb
> 2022, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:

>> Germany provides local transport at comparable prices for bus and
>> train (in most regions a local train ticket costs the same as a bus
>> ticket for the same route).  Intercity travel is nominally supposed to
>> self-financing.
>
> How do they unpick the financing of the infrastructure that's shared
> between subsidised local services and potentially self-financing InterCity?

That's why I wrote 'nominally self-financing':
"DB Railway lines" and "DB Stations" specify access charges (controlled
by the regulator). The access charges should be at a level that pays
for maintenance of existing lines but investments are directly
government financed.
For regional services, the tendering local authority pays the access
charges, while for InterCity and Freight, the TOC pays the access charges.

As neither "DB InterCity" nor DB Holding (100% government owned) are
forced to be profitable, there is a fair amount of wiggling room.

The current new government wanted to increase visibility here but IIRC
the only decisions are to merge "DB Railway lines" and "DB Stations" and
disallow this new company from transferring profit to DB Holding. This
will supposedly simplify government subsidies on infrastructure
maintenance without impacting the market and with enable a direct
subsidy of access charges.

Rolf

On 2022-02-22 18:04:20 +0000, Roland Perry said:

> In message <sv36as$eur$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:25:47 on Tue, 22 Feb
> 2022, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
>> Am 22.02.2022 um 17:55 schrieb Roland Perry:
>>> In message <j7ke2jF450jU1@mid.individual.net>, at 15:33:39 on Tue, 22
>>> Feb 2022, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
>>>
>>>> On 21/02/2022 14:47, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>>>>> The Verkehrsverbund Rhein-Neckar has re-vamped their offerings for
>>>>> annual season tickets in the Mannheim metropolitain area:
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "https://www.vrn.de/tickets/ticketuebersicht/jahreskarte/rhein-neckar-t
>>>>> icket/index.html"
>>>
>>>>>  1) Rhein-Neckar-Ticket at a price of €92 per month is the traditional
>>>>> "all-year rover"
>>>
>>>>> 2)   Rhein-Neckar-Ticket-Plus at a price of €111 per month allows to
>>>>> take four friends in the evening and on weekends (i.e. the "weekend
>>>>> bonus" is valued at €20 per month)
>>>
>>>>> 3) Rhein-Neckar-Ticket-Flex at a price of €66 per month allows use on
>>>>> 8 working days per month (activate in mobile app before you leave)
>>>>> plus the "weekend bonus" for the ticket-owner and 4 guests.
>>>>>  So the offerings are clearly aimed stronger than before towards
>>>>> leasure travel.
>>>>
>>>> I have long envied the ticket prices you pay in Germany.  Some years
>>>> ago on holiday there I discovered that for about the same as I for a
>>>> standard class annual ticket in the UK just to commute to work I could
>>>> have bought a ticket valid on any train in Germany for a year - and
>>>> 1st Class too.
>
>>> Yes, if the taxpayers are prepared to subsidise it to the hilt (80% in
>>> .CH I think) anything is possible.
>>
>> Taxpayers subsidize road transport to the hilt,
>
> In .CH? It's not the case in .UK

Where does all the non-tax revenue come from that pays for the UK riad
network, then? A bit comes from the Dartford river crossing, a bit
from the London Congestion charge. I assume a few other bridges have
tolls? Oh, the M6 toll. I'm sure that covers all of the cost of the
UK road network.

>> so if there is a real aim to shift from road transport to rail,
>> subsidies should be comparable.
>
> For almost a generation now, the policy objective for UK Railways is
> that overall they don't require a subsidy.

Hence the overcrowding, unreliability due to squeezing too many trains
down too few lines, general underinvestment and eyewateringly high
fares.

> Some regional services will always require a subsidy, but that comes
> from shifting funds from commuters in the London region paying
> noticeably *more* than it costs to provide the service.
>
>> Germany provides local transport at comparable prices for bus and train
>> (in most regions a local train ticket costs the same as a bus ticket
>> for the same route). Intercity travel is nominally supposed to
>> self-financing.
>
> How do they unpick the financing of the infrastructure that's shared
> between subsidised local services and potentially self-financing
> InterCity?

THe same way they do in the UK. Working out fees for track access.

Robin

On 24/02/2022 12:15, Bob wrote:
> On 2022-02-22 18:04:20 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>
>> In message <sv36as$eur$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:25:47 on Tue, 22 Feb
>> 2022, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
>>> Taxpayers subsidize road transport to the hilt,
>>
>> In .CH? It's not the case in .UK
>
> Where does all the non-tax revenue come from that pays for the UK riad
> network, then?  A bit comes from the Dartford river crossing, a bit from
> the London Congestion charge.  I assume a few other bridges have tolls?
> Oh, the M6 toll.  I'm sure that covers all of the cost of the UK road
> network.

Mainly duties and taxes on fuel, with contributions from the initial and
annual duty on the vehicles themselves.

On 24/02/2022 18:37, Certes wrote:
> On 24/02/2022 12:15, Bob wrote:
>> On 2022-02-22 18:04:20 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>
>>> In message <sv36as$eur$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:25:47 on Tue, 22 Feb
>>> 2022, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
>>>> Taxpayers subsidize road transport to the hilt,
>>>
>>> In .CH? It's not the case in .UK
>>
>> Where does all the non-tax revenue come from that pays for the UK riad
>> network, then?  A bit comes from the Dartford river crossing, a bit
>> from the London Congestion charge.  I assume a few other bridges have
>> tolls? Oh, the M6 toll.  I'm sure that covers all of the cost of the
>> UK road network.
>
> Mainly duties and taxes on fuel, with contributions from the initial and
> annual duty on the vehicles themselves.

The annual duty just about pays for the DVLA.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 2022-02-24 18:37:12 +0000, Certes said:

> On 24/02/2022 12:15, Bob wrote:
>> On 2022-02-22 18:04:20 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>
>>> In message <sv36as$eur$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:25:47 on Tue, 22 Feb
>>> 2022, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
>>>> Taxpayers subsidize road transport to the hilt,
>>>
>>> In .CH? It's not the case in .UK
>>
>> Where does all the non-tax revenue come from that pays for the UK riad
>> network, then?  A bit comes from the Dartford river crossing, a bit
>> from the London Congestion charge.  I assume a few other bridges have
>> tolls? Oh, the M6 toll.  I'm sure that covers all of the cost of the
>> UK road network.
>
> Mainly duties and taxes on fuel, with contributions from the initial and
> annual duty on the vehicles themselves.

So roads are not subidised by the taxpayer because the money to pay for
them comes from taxes. Got it.

Robin

Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
> On 2022-02-24 18:37:12 +0000, Certes said:
>
>> On 24/02/2022 12:15, Bob wrote:
>>> On 2022-02-22 18:04:20 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>>
>>>> In message <sv36as$eur$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:25:47 on Tue, 22 Feb
>>>> 2022, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
>>>>> Taxpayers subsidize road transport to the hilt,
>>>>
>>>> In .CH? It's not the case in .UK
>>>
>>> Where does all the non-tax revenue come from that pays for the UK riad
>>> network, then?  A bit comes from the Dartford river crossing, a bit
>>> from the London Congestion charge.  I assume a few other bridges have
>>> tolls? Oh, the M6 toll.  I'm sure that covers all of the cost of the
>>> UK road network.
>>
>> Mainly duties and taxes on fuel, with contributions from the initial and
>> annual duty on the vehicles themselves.
>
> So roads are not subidised by the taxpayer because the money to pay for
> them comes from taxes. Got it.
>
> Robin
>
>

The UK government spends about £11 billion per year on roads

https://www.statista.com/statistics/298667/united-kingdom-uk-public-sector-expenditure-national-roads/

In 2018-19 (ie pre covid) total rail subsidy was around £7 billion

https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/media/1547/rail-finance-statistical-release-2018-19.pdf

On 2022-02-25 08:56:15 +0000, Tweed said:

> Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>> On 2022-02-24 18:37:12 +0000, Certes said:
>>
>>> On 24/02/2022 12:15, Bob wrote:
>>>> On 2022-02-22 18:04:20 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <sv36as$eur$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:25:47 on Tue, 22 Feb
>>>>> 2022, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
>>>>>> Taxpayers subsidize road transport to the hilt,
>>>>>
>>>>> In .CH? It's not the case in .UK
>>>>
>>>> Where does all the non-tax revenue come from that pays for the UK riad
>>>> network, then?  A bit comes from the Dartford river crossing, a bit
>>>> from the London Congestion charge.  I assume a few other bridges have
>>>> tolls? Oh, the M6 toll.  I'm sure that covers all of the cost of the
>>>> UK road network.
>>>
>>> Mainly duties and taxes on fuel, with contributions from the initial and
>>> annual duty on the vehicles themselves.
>>
>> So roads are not subidised by the taxpayer because the money to pay for
>> them comes from taxes. Got it.
>>
>> Robin
>>
>>
>
> The UK government spends about £11 billion per year on roads

Right, so somewhat more than the zero claimed upthread. That also
ignores certain externalised costs, for example the cost of policing
the road network. The management of railway traffic is is contained
within the railway budgets, but not so for roads.

> https://www.statista.com/statistics/298667/united-kingdom-uk-public-sector-expenditure-national-roads/
>
>
> In 2018-19 (ie pre covid) total rail subsidy was around £7 billion
>
> https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/media/1547/rail-finance-statistical-release-2018-19.pdf
>

Interesting use of language there. Money given to the road network is
"spending" and money given to the railway network is "subsidy". Thave
figure also includes spending on major infrastructure projects, not
just the cost of providing the existing service on existing routes.

Robin

On 25/02/2022 08:27, Bob wrote:
> On 2022-02-24 18:37:12 +0000, Certes said:
>
>> On 24/02/2022 12:15, Bob wrote:
>>> On 2022-02-22 18:04:20 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>>
>>>> In message <sv36as$eur$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:25:47 on Tue, 22 Feb
>>>> 2022, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
>>>>> Taxpayers subsidize road transport to the hilt,
>>>>
>>>> In .CH? It's not the case in .UK
>>>
>>> Where does all the non-tax revenue come from that pays for the UK
>>> riad network, then?  A bit comes from the Dartford river crossing, a
>>> bit from the London Congestion charge.  I assume a few other bridges
>>> have tolls?  Oh, the M6 toll.  I'm sure that covers all of the cost
>>> of the UK road network.
>>
>> Mainly duties and taxes on fuel, with contributions from the initial and
>> annual duty on the vehicles themselves.
>
> So roads are not subidised by the taxpayer because the money to pay for
> them comes from taxes.  Got it.

I was reading "taxpayer" as general taxation such as Income Tax and VAT.
Extra taxes paid specifically for the privilege of driving don't count
as subsidy.

Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
> On 25/02/2022 08:27, Bob wrote:
>> On 2022-02-24 18:37:12 +0000, Certes said:
>>
>>> On 24/02/2022 12:15, Bob wrote:
>>>> On 2022-02-22 18:04:20 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <sv36as$eur$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:25:47 on Tue, 22 Feb
>>>>> 2022, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
>>>>>> Taxpayers subsidize road transport to the hilt,
>>>>>
>>>>> In .CH? It's not the case in .UK
>>>>
>>>> Where does all the non-tax revenue come from that pays for the UK
>>>> riad network, then?  A bit comes from the Dartford river crossing, a
>>>> bit from the London Congestion charge.  I assume a few other bridges
>>>> have tolls?  Oh, the M6 toll.  I'm sure that covers all of the cost
>>>> of the UK road network.
>>>
>>> Mainly duties and taxes on fuel, with contributions from the initial and
>>> annual duty on the vehicles themselves.
>>
>> So roads are not subidised by the taxpayer because the money to pay for
>> them comes from taxes.  Got it.
>
> I was reading "taxpayer" as general taxation such as Income Tax and VAT.
> Extra taxes paid specifically for the privilege of driving don't count
> as subsidy.

Which would make a kind of sense if those taxes were hypothecated to the
roads budget, but IIUC they aren’t, like NI doesn’t fund the state pension.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
> On 2022-02-25 08:56:15 +0000, Tweed said:
>
>> Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>>> On 2022-02-24 18:37:12 +0000, Certes said:
>>>
>>>> On 24/02/2022 12:15, Bob wrote:
>>>>> On 2022-02-22 18:04:20 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <sv36as$eur$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:25:47 on Tue, 22 Feb
>>>>>> 2022, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
>>>>>>> Taxpayers subsidize road transport to the hilt,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In .CH? It's not the case in .UK
>>>>>
>>>>> Where does all the non-tax revenue come from that pays for the UK riad
>>>>> network, then?  A bit comes from the Dartford river crossing, a bit
>>>>> from the London Congestion charge.  I assume a few other bridges have
>>>>> tolls? Oh, the M6 toll.  I'm sure that covers all of the cost of the
>>>>> UK road network.
>>>>
>>>> Mainly duties and taxes on fuel, with contributions from the initial and
>>>> annual duty on the vehicles themselves.
>>>
>>> So roads are not subidised by the taxpayer because the money to pay for
>>> them comes from taxes. Got it.
>>>
>>> Robin
>>>
>>>
>>
>> The UK government spends about £11 billion per year on roads
>
> Right, so somewhat more than the zero claimed upthread. That also
> ignores certain externalised costs, for example the cost of policing
> the road network. The management of railway traffic is is contained
> within the railway budgets, but not so for roads.
>
>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/298667/united-kingdom-uk-public-sector-expenditure-national-roads/
>>
>>
>>
>> In 2018-19 (ie pre covid) total rail subsidy was around £7 billion
>>
>> https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/media/1547/rail-finance-statistical-release-2018-19.pdf
>>
>
> Interesting use of language there. Money given to the road network is
> "spending" and money given to the railway network is "subsidy". Thave
> figure also includes spending on major infrastructure projects, not
> just the cost of providing the existing service on existing routes.
>
> Robin
>
>

It is a deliberate use of words. Apart from some edge cases, all road costs
are spending - there’s no organisation that has other forms of income to
subsidise. Just like money to the NHS is spending rather than subsidy. Rail
has passenger and freight income, but it’s not enough to balance the books
so a subsidy is needed.

Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
> Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
>> On 25/02/2022 08:27, Bob wrote:
>>> On 2022-02-24 18:37:12 +0000, Certes said:
>>>
>>>> On 24/02/2022 12:15, Bob wrote:
>>>>> On 2022-02-22 18:04:20 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <sv36as$eur$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:25:47 on Tue, 22 Feb
>>>>>> 2022, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
>>>>>>> Taxpayers subsidize road transport to the hilt,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In .CH? It's not the case in .UK
>>>>>
>>>>> Where does all the non-tax revenue come from that pays for the UK
>>>>> riad network, then?  A bit comes from the Dartford river crossing, a
>>>>> bit from the London Congestion charge.  I assume a few other bridges
>>>>> have tolls?  Oh, the M6 toll.  I'm sure that covers all of the cost
>>>>> of the UK road network.
>>>>
>>>> Mainly duties and taxes on fuel, with contributions from the initial and
>>>> annual duty on the vehicles themselves.
>>>
>>> So roads are not subidised by the taxpayer because the money to pay for
>>> them comes from taxes.  Got it.
>>
>> I was reading "taxpayer" as general taxation such as Income Tax and VAT.
>> Extra taxes paid specifically for the privilege of driving don't count
>> as subsidy.
>
> Which would make a kind of sense if those taxes were hypothecated to the
> roads budget, but IIUC they aren’t, like NI doesn’t fund the state pension.
>
> Sam
>

Actually NI does fund the state pension

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/national-insurance-fund-accounts

The National Insurance Scheme was established on 5 July 1948 to provide
unemployment benefit, sickness benefit, retirement pensions and other
benefits in cases where individuals meet the contribution and other
qualifying conditions.

The National Insurance Fund Accounts present the receipts and payments for
the financial year, as well as the balance on the Fund at the end of the
year.

In message <sv7ssg$c7s$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:15:12 on Thu, 24 Feb
2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>> I have long envied the ticket prices you pay in Germany.  Some
>>>>>years ago on holiday there I discovered that for about the same as
>>>>>I for a standard class annual ticket in the UK just to commute to
>>>>>work I could have bought a ticket valid on any train in Germany
>>>>>for a year - and 1st Class too.
>>
>>>> Yes, if the taxpayers are prepared to subsidise it to the hilt (80%
>>>>in .CH I think) anything is possible.
>>> Taxpayers subsidize road transport to the hilt,
>> In .CH? It's not the case in .UK
>
>Where does all the non-tax revenue come from that pays for the UK riad
>network, then? A bit comes from the Dartford river crossing, a bit
>from the London Congestion charge. I assume a few other bridges have
>tolls? Oh, the M6 toll. I'm sure that covers all of the cost of the
>UK road network.

Fuel duty £28bn a year, for starters. Then there's VAT on anything to do
with operating vehicles (including on top of the fuel duty).

>>> so if there is a real aim to shift from road transport to rail,
>>>subsidies should be comparable.

>> For almost a generation now, the policy objective for UK Railways is
>>that overall they don't require a subsidy.
>
>Hence the overcrowding, unreliability due to squeezing too many trains
>down too few lines, general underinvestment and eyewateringly high
>fares.

The politics here is why should the vast majority of people who never
use trains, subside the minority who do. It's possible that the
percentage of train travel in .ch is greater.

>> Some regional services will always require a subsidy, but that comes
>>from shifting funds from commuters in the London region paying
>>noticeably *more* than it costs to provide the service.
>>
>>> Germany provides local transport at comparable prices for bus and
>>>train (in most regions a local train ticket costs the same as a bus
>>>ticket for the same route). Intercity travel is nominally supposed
>>>to self-financing.

>> How do they unpick the financing of the infrastructure that's shared
>>between subsidised local services and potentially self-financing
>>InterCity?
>
>THe same way they do in the UK. Working out fees for track access.

But those fees are just very broad estimates, because (a) most tickets
are interavailable, (b) subsidies are calculated by working backwards
from the fares basket vs costs and take account of what the passengers n
each flow can afford to pay (not what it costs to run the trains) and
(c) the track access charges don't change when a train moves en-route
from shared to exclusive infrastructure.
--
Roland Perry

On 25/02/2022 12:49, Certes wrote:
> On 25/02/2022 08:27, Bob wrote:
>> On 2022-02-24 18:37:12 +0000, Certes said:
>>
>>> On 24/02/2022 12:15, Bob wrote:
>>>> On 2022-02-22 18:04:20 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <sv36as$eur$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:25:47 on Tue, 22 Feb
>>>>> 2022, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
>>>>>> Taxpayers subsidize road transport to the hilt,
>>>>>
>>>>> In .CH? It's not the case in .UK
>>>>
>>>> Where does all the non-tax revenue come from that pays for the UK
>>>> riad network, then?  A bit comes from the Dartford river crossing, a
>>>> bit from the London Congestion charge.  I assume a few other bridges
>>>> have tolls?  Oh, the M6 toll.  I'm sure that covers all of the cost
>>>> of the UK road network.
>>>
>>> Mainly duties and taxes on fuel, with contributions from the initial and
>>> annual duty on the vehicles themselves.
>>
>> So roads are not subidised by the taxpayer because the money to pay
>> for them comes from taxes.  Got it.
>
> I was reading "taxpayer" as general taxation such as Income Tax and VAT.
> Extra taxes paid specifically for the privilege of driving don't count
> as subsidy.

There are no hypothecated taxes for driving faciities, regardless of the
names of some taxes.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>> On 2022-02-25 08:56:15 +0000, Tweed said:
>>
>>> Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>>>> On 2022-02-24 18:37:12 +0000, Certes said:
>>>>
>>>>> On 24/02/2022 12:15, Bob wrote:
>>>>>> On 2022-02-22 18:04:20 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <sv36as$eur$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:25:47 on Tue, 22 Feb
>>>>>>> 2022, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Taxpayers subsidize road transport to the hilt,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In .CH? It's not the case in .UK
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Where does all the non-tax revenue come from that pays for the UK riad
>>>>>> network, then?  A bit comes from the Dartford river crossing, a bit
>>>>>> from the London Congestion charge.  I assume a few other bridges have
>>>>>> tolls? Oh, the M6 toll.  I'm sure that covers all of the cost of the
>>>>>> UK road network.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mainly duties and taxes on fuel, with contributions from the initial and
>>>>> annual duty on the vehicles themselves.
>>>>
>>>> So roads are not subidised by the taxpayer because the money to pay for
>>>> them comes from taxes. Got it.
>>>>
>>>> Robin
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> The UK government spends about £11 billion per year on roads
>>
>> Right, so somewhat more than the zero claimed upthread. That also
>> ignores certain externalised costs, for example the cost of policing
>> the road network. The management of railway traffic is is contained
>> within the railway budgets, but not so for roads.
>>
>>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/298667/united-kingdom-uk-public-sector-expenditure-national-roads/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In 2018-19 (ie pre covid) total rail subsidy was around £7 billion
>>>
>>> https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/media/1547/rail-finance-statistical-release-2018-19.pdf
>>>
>>
>> Interesting use of language there. Money given to the road network is
>> "spending" and money given to the railway network is "subsidy". Thave
>> figure also includes spending on major infrastructure projects, not
>> just the cost of providing the existing service on existing routes.
>>
>> Robin
>>
>>
>
> It is a deliberate use of words. Apart from some edge cases, all road costs
> are spending - there’s no organisation that has other forms of income to
> subsidise. Just like money to the NHS is spending rather than subsidy. Rail
> has passenger and freight income, but it’s not enough to balance the books
> so a subsidy is needed.
>
>

Hmmm. So if we made all passenger travel free, and all freight transport
free, it'd suddenly become spending rather than subsidy?

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>>> On 2022-02-25 08:56:15 +0000, Tweed said:
>>>
>>>> Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 2022-02-24 18:37:12 +0000, Certes said:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 24/02/2022 12:15, Bob wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2022-02-22 18:04:20 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In message <sv36as$eur$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:25:47 on Tue, 22 Feb
>>>>>>>> 2022, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Taxpayers subsidize road transport to the hilt,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In .CH? It's not the case in .UK
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Where does all the non-tax revenue come from that pays for the UK riad
>>>>>>> network, then?  A bit comes from the Dartford river crossing, a bit
>>>>>>> from the London Congestion charge.  I assume a few other bridges have
>>>>>>> tolls? Oh, the M6 toll.  I'm sure that covers all of the cost of the
>>>>>>> UK road network.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mainly duties and taxes on fuel, with contributions from the initial and
>>>>>> annual duty on the vehicles themselves.
>>>>>
>>>>> So roads are not subidised by the taxpayer because the money to pay for
>>>>> them comes from taxes. Got it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Robin
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The UK government spends about £11 billion per year on roads
>>>
>>> Right, so somewhat more than the zero claimed upthread. That also
>>> ignores certain externalised costs, for example the cost of policing
>>> the road network. The management of railway traffic is is contained
>>> within the railway budgets, but not so for roads.
>>>
>>>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/298667/united-kingdom-uk-public-sector-expenditure-national-roads/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In 2018-19 (ie pre covid) total rail subsidy was around £7 billion
>>>>
>>>> https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/media/1547/rail-finance-statistical-release-2018-19.pdf
>>>>
>>>
>>> Interesting use of language there. Money given to the road network is
>>> "spending" and money given to the railway network is "subsidy". Thave
>>> figure also includes spending on major infrastructure projects, not
>>> just the cost of providing the existing service on existing routes.
>>>
>>> Robin
>>>
>>>
>>
>> It is a deliberate use of words. Apart from some edge cases, all road costs
>> are spending - there’s no organisation that has other forms of income to
>> subsidise. Just like money to the NHS is spending rather than subsidy. Rail
>> has passenger and freight income, but it’s not enough to balance the books
>> so a subsidy is needed.
>>
>>
>
> Hmmm. So if we made all passenger travel free, and all freight transport
> free, it'd suddenly become spending rather than subsidy?
>
>
> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>
>

Yes. As per the NHS.

I suppose a subsidy is a subset of spending. Rail subsidies come out of
public spending.

On 2022-02-25 14:42:44 +0000, Roland Perry said:

> In message <sv7ssg$c7s$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:15:12 on Thu, 24 Feb
> 2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>> I have long envied the ticket prices you pay in Germany.  Some years
>>>>>> ago on holiday there I discovered that for about the same as I for a
>>>>>> standard class annual ticket in the UK just to commute to work I could
>>>>>> have bought a ticket valid on any train in Germany for a year - and
>>>>>> 1st Class too.
>>>
>>>>> Yes, if the taxpayers are prepared to subsidise it to the hilt (80% in
>>>>> .CH I think) anything is possible.
>>>> Taxpayers subsidize road transport to the hilt,
>>> In .CH? It's not the case in .UK
>>
>> Where does all the non-tax revenue come from that pays for the UK riad
>> network, then? A bit comes from the Dartford river crossing, a bit
>> from the London Congestion charge. I assume a few other bridges have
>> tolls? Oh, the M6 toll. I'm sure that covers all of the cost of the
>> UK road network.
>
> Fuel duty £28bn a year, for starters. Then there's VAT on anything to
> do with operating vehicles (including on top of the fuel duty).

Those are both taxes. The government collects taxes on things (income,
import duties, duties on the sale of certain goods, VAT etc), and
spends money on some things. That's the very definition of things
being taxpayer funded. That is how the (vast majority of) the UK road
network is paid for. Out of taxes.

>>>> so if there is a real aim to shift from road transport to rail,
>>>> subsidies should be comparable.
>
>>> For almost a generation now, the policy objective for UK Railways is
>>> that overall they don't require a subsidy.
>>
>> Hence the overcrowding, unreliability due to squeezing too many trains
>> down too few lines, general underinvestment and eyewateringly high
>> fares.
>
> The politics here is why should the vast majority of people who never
> use trains, subside the minority who do. It's possible that the
> percentage of train travel in .ch is greater.

Just because people don't use it directly doesn't mean they don't
benefit from it. The whole point of the government paying for things
out of taxation, be it infrastructure or public services, is that each
individual thing only benefits a few people who use it (I, for example,
have never benefited from the Leeds General Infirmary), but society as
a whole benefits from the wider economic impact of having these things
available, due to the benefits to the wider economy they provide.

Robin

On 25/02/2022 14:53, Graeme Wall wrote:
> On 25/02/2022 12:49, Certes wrote:
>> On 25/02/2022 08:27, Bob wrote:
>>> On 2022-02-24 18:37:12 +0000, Certes said:
>>>
>>>> On 24/02/2022 12:15, Bob wrote:
>>>>> On 2022-02-22 18:04:20 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <sv36as$eur$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:25:47 on Tue, 22
>>>>>> Feb 2022, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
>>>>>>> Taxpayers subsidize road transport to the hilt,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In .CH? It's not the case in .UK
>>>>>
>>>>> Where does all the non-tax revenue come from that pays for the UK
>>>>> riad network, then?  A bit comes from the Dartford river crossing,
>>>>> a bit from the London Congestion charge.  I assume a few other
>>>>> bridges have tolls?  Oh, the M6 toll.  I'm sure that covers all of
>>>>> the cost of the UK road network.
>>>>
>>>> Mainly duties and taxes on fuel, with contributions from the initial
>>>> and
>>>> annual duty on the vehicles themselves.
>>>
>>> So roads are not subidised by the taxpayer because the money to pay
>>> for them comes from taxes.  Got it.
>>
>> I was reading "taxpayer" as general taxation such as Income Tax and VAT.
>> Extra taxes paid specifically for the privilege of driving don't count
>> as subsidy.
>
> There are no hypothecated taxes for driving faciities, regardless of the
> names of some taxes.

True, but there are taxes I wouldn't be paying if I didn't have a car.

On 25/02/2022 17:36, Certes wrote:
> On 25/02/2022 14:53, Graeme Wall wrote:
>> On 25/02/2022 12:49, Certes wrote:
>>> On 25/02/2022 08:27, Bob wrote:
>>>> On 2022-02-24 18:37:12 +0000, Certes said:
>>>>
>>>>> On 24/02/2022 12:15, Bob wrote:
>>>>>> On 2022-02-22 18:04:20 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <sv36as$eur$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:25:47 on Tue, 22
>>>>>>> Feb 2022, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Taxpayers subsidize road transport to the hilt,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In .CH? It's not the case in .UK
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Where does all the non-tax revenue come from that pays for the UK
>>>>>> riad network, then?  A bit comes from the Dartford river crossing,
>>>>>> a bit from the London Congestion charge.  I assume a few other
>>>>>> bridges have tolls?  Oh, the M6 toll.  I'm sure that covers all of
>>>>>> the cost of the UK road network.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mainly duties and taxes on fuel, with contributions from the
>>>>> initial and
>>>>> annual duty on the vehicles themselves.
>>>>
>>>> So roads are not subidised by the taxpayer because the money to pay
>>>> for them comes from taxes.  Got it.
>>>
>>> I was reading "taxpayer" as general taxation such as Income Tax and VAT.
>>> Extra taxes paid specifically for the privilege of driving don't count
>>> as subsidy.
>>
>> There are no hypothecated taxes for driving faciities, regardless of
>> the names of some taxes.
>
> True, but there are taxes I wouldn't be paying if I didn't have a car.

You still end up paying them indirectly even without a car. The dray
that delivers the beer to your local pays road and fuel taxes which
feeds through into the cost of your pint.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.