On 19/08/2022 11:06, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <tdni0g$1dnqc$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:35:22 on Fri, 19 Aug
> 2022, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>> "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote in message
>> news:qeJPB8kIcz$iFAOv@perry.uk...
>>> In message <tdm3jk$15342$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:23:29 on Thu, 18 Aug
>>> 2022, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>
>>>> Luckily I have an old corded phone which I keep in reserve for power
>>>> cuts, and this can be switched to pulse dialling.
>>>
>>> Same here (and I actually used it to *receive* calls in a recent
>>> power  cut). But no switch required, all it has is a dial.
>>>
>>> I keep meaning to get this other one connected up, I'm sure the
>>> insides  have been "modernised", and it's an interesting "decorators
>>> piece".
>>>
>>> http://www.perry.co.uk/Old_phone_and_poster.jpg
>>>
>>> And yes, it lives on a shelf next to a reproduction of a British
>>> Railways  advertising poster.
>>
>> When we were on holiday in a cottage that we hired, the owner (who
>> lived there herself out of season) encouraged us to use her landline
>> phone to make/receive any calls - presumably she was on an "unlimited"
>> tariff, so it was didn't cost any extra if people used the phone.
>
> There's very few unlimited tariffs which include premium rate and
> international calls.

I assume that tenants weren't encouraged to make those.

ISTR a gang with a bank of SIMs calling their own premium line 24/7. I
don't recall whether they found such a tariff to abuse, or if they
simply registered the SIMs to Mr. Joe Soap of 123 High St and ran off
without paying the bills.

On 19/08/2022 11:46, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Aug 2022 20:23:29 +0100
> "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote in message
>> news:tdlk5s$ueh$1@gioia.aioe.org...
>>>> Is not 112 universal now?
>>>
>>> Universal where? In europe maybe, not outside it. Its also pointless, at
>>> least
>>> in the UK. Might have made sense with rotary phones being quicker to dial
>>> but
>>> ironically on any type of touch phone its slower.
>>
>> Why is it slower to key 112 than 999? Is it the time to change fingers from
>> the one pressing the 1 to the one pressing the 2? I suppose if you use just
>
> Yes.
>
>> I suppose 112 is more prone to being "misdialled" by an intermittent DC
>> fault on a landline than 999 (which I believe is why 999 was chosen in the
>> first place). In the UK, all lines (currently) accept pulse dialling as an
>
> Though the americans had a suitable compromise with 911. 999 was one of the
> worst numbers to choose as an emergency number for rotary phones. Only using
> 000 or some combination of 9 and 0 would have been worse.

There was once a fad for putting a dial lock on the zero to prevent
long-distance or international calls (and local numbers if you were
unlucky enough to need one containing a zero). That left 999 as the
available number least likely to be dialled accidentally.

You can (and I occasionally did) tap the handset support to simulate
the pulses, but getting ten in the right cadence takes some skill.

>> Do any/many other countries still support pulse dialling on their landlines,
>> or have they gone over to DTMF only?
>
> When BT switch everyone to their idiotic cost cutting IP phone system which
> won't work in a power cut or in places where ADSL won't work (ie half the
> countryside) DRMF won't be an option either probably.
>

On 19/08/2022 10:19, Graeme Wall wrote:
> On 19/08/2022 07:49, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <tdmk5k$1lg6$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 01:06:11 on Fri, 19 Aug
>> 2022, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk" <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> remarked:
>>
>>> The number 411 was simply for local directory enquiries, by the way.
>>> To figure out a number anywhere else in NANP, one dials the area code
>>> and 555-1212.
>>
>> Hence and otherwise, why numbers in Hollywood movies and TV shows very
>> often had "555" in them. Because it's not very likely to be anyone's
>> actual number.
>
> There was, maybe still is, a block of unallocated numbers in this
> country for use in TV and film productions.[1] But with the near
> universal use of mobile phones by characters on screen now, they are not
> as important as they used to be.

There are several; 020 7946 0xxx and 01x1 496 xxxx are the most used.
There's also an entire area code 01632, which logically would apply to
Newcastle had it not changed from 0632 to 091 before the 1 appeared.
You still see them on fictional shop fronts and other advertising.

> [1] The story goes they were introduced when a number on Emergency Ward
> 10, though fictitious, was identical to a real number when using a dial
> phone[2] and some poor subscriber was deluged with people wanting to
> speak to the character!
>
> [2] in the days of exchange names
>

On 19/08/2022 07:39, Graeme Wall wrote:
> On 19/08/2022 03:10, Charles Ellson wrote:
>> On Thu, 18 Aug 2022 14:57:54 +0100, "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote in message
>>> news:hF+93hVUAk$iFA$e@perry.uk...
>>>
>>>>> Regardless of EU rules, I believe most smartphones can recognise
>>>>> emergency
>>>>> numbers and redirect the calls to the correct one for the location.
>>>>
>>>> Even 911 when you are playing tourist in the USA?
>>>
>>> I've wondered that: whether UK/Europe mobile phone companies accept
>>> 911 as
>>> an alternative to 999/112.
>>>
>> In some areas in the UK 911 can be the beginning of a local number
>> range. You would then have an additional inconsistency between mobile
>> dialling and landline dialling which would make 911 ineffective on a
>> landline.
>> <snip>
>
> Someone in a locked station or in the back of an artic is unlikely to
> have access to a landline.

A rural station might have a phone box and no mobile reception.
However, I concede that I've never seen one in the back of an artic.

Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
> On the old 'feature phones' I used to write the firmware for, you
> could dial the emergency services by just long-pressing 9. I
> thought this was something of a standard for GSM phones actually,
> but I'm not entirely sure of that. I also am not sure if that
> has been brought over into smartphone keypads, but wouldn't be
> surprised... Again, don't intend to test to find
> out.

I think Nokia phones offered that as a 'speed dial' feature. You could
program 9(?) numbers into your speed dials, and then hold the keys to call
them. eg
https://manualsdump.com/en/manuals/nokia-6310model/219556/26

In that example, holding 1 gets you voicemail and 2-9 get you speed dials.

Maybe the '9' long press was just having the emergency number preprogrammed
as one of the speed dial nubers?

It seems like Nokia Androids have a feature where you can use speed dial
numbers from the dialpad, but these days you have to open the phone app to
reach it, so there's not some much advantage.

Theo

On 18/08/2022 00:41, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> I would have just gone with the police as my first point of contact.

Perhaps they tried that and did not get an answer or the police were
unhelpful?

On Fri, 19 Aug 2022 15:16:08 +0100
Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
>On 19/08/2022 11:46, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> On Thu, 18 Aug 2022 20:23:29 +0100
>> "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote in message
>>> news:tdlk5s$ueh$1@gioia.aioe.org...
>>>>> Is not 112 universal now?
>>>>
>>>> Universal where? In europe maybe, not outside it. Its also pointless, at
>>>> least
>>>> in the UK. Might have made sense with rotary phones being quicker to dial
>>>> but
>>>> ironically on any type of touch phone its slower.
>>>
>>> Why is it slower to key 112 than 999? Is it the time to change fingers from
>>> the one pressing the 1 to the one pressing the 2? I suppose if you use just
>>
>> Yes.
>>
>>> I suppose 112 is more prone to being "misdialled" by an intermittent DC
>>> fault on a landline than 999 (which I believe is why 999 was chosen in the
>>> first place). In the UK, all lines (currently) accept pulse dialling as an
>>
>> Though the americans had a suitable compromise with 911. 999 was one of the
>> worst numbers to choose as an emergency number for rotary phones. Only using
>> 000 or some combination of 9 and 0 would have been worse.
>
>There was once a fad for putting a dial lock on the zero to prevent
>long-distance or international calls (and local numbers if you were
>unlucky enough to need one containing a zero). That left 999 as the
>available number least likely to be dialled accidentally.
>
>You can (and I occasionally did) tap the handset support to simulate
>the pulses, but getting ten in the right cadence takes some skill.

We used that method to get free calls on a student union owned suppossedly
receive only phone without a dial at my uni. Don't know if they ever twigged
what we were doing :)

On 19/08/2022 15:56, MB wrote:
> On 18/08/2022 00:41, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>> I would have just gone with the police as my first point of contact.
>
> Perhaps they tried that and did not get an answer or the police were
> unhelpful?

So MPs get a special 999 service?

On 18/08/2022 14:57, NY wrote:
> I can vouch for the fact that 999 operators can patch calls to an ambulance
> service that is not local to where the call is being answered

I believe the system transfers to another area in event of either a
fault or being bury.

Even before Airwave, Northern Ireland ambulance service could answer
Scottish 999 calls and despatch ambulances. It was use many times when
the scottish system crashed. I would not be surprised if the other
emergency services had similar arrangements.

On 18/08/2022 15:51, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> Calling one's MP seems ... I dunno ... like seeking attention.

My life would have to be in imminent danger before I would want to have
to speak to The Edinburgh Banker.

On 18/08/2022 18:50, mechanic wrote:
> Maybe the lights were turned off when the station was locked up?

I was wondering if all the lights remain on after the station closes
overnight.

On 18/08/2022 19:41, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
> I don't suppose BTP would actually attend but they would know who to
> contact to arrange for the gate to be opened.

And possibly arrange for the local real police to attend.

On 18/08/2022 20:45, NY wrote:
> I never knew that. I assumed that the digits were passed to the switching
> system ("the exchange") as they had been typed. I hadn't realised that
> phones are pre-programmed to intercept the various emergency numbers used
> around the world and to instigate a special connection that is not the
> result of the digits 9 9 9 or 1 1 2 being sent as if they were any other
> phone number.

I tend to know more about MPT1327 than mobile phone systems but there
are a lot of similarities between them all.

MPT1327 has a way of making an emergency call with a *# code I think, it
clears traffic off the network to route your call to the called number.

A friend who worked for the GPO/BT told me that part of the maintenance
of the small exchanges that he tended to work on (and probably bigger
ones!) was to make a 999 call so he was quite used to doing it.

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Aug 2022 19:35:51 -0000 (UTC)
> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> iPhones can do that, press the power button 5 times[1] in rapid
>>> succession and it calls the emergency services and gives them your
>>> location and texts a preselected contact number as well.
>>>
>>> [1] There are alternative ways of doing it but they involve pressing the
>>> pwer button and a volume control at the same time which, on my phone at
>>> least, is too easy to do accidentally.
>>>
>>
>> Power button five times, or power and volume for three seconds [1] both
>> open a screen with has the following options:
>>
>> Slide for power off
>>
>> Slide to show your medical ID (as entered into the relevant section of
>> phone settings) including option to call your designated emergency contact
>> (as specified in your contact list, and will usually be next of kin)
>>
>> Slide to call call emergency services
>
> Hardly intuitive in an emergency situation or quick compared to pressing
> 1 button.
>

Dialling 999 still works.

Unlock phone (passcode or faceID). Close whatever app you last had open.
Tap icon to open phone functionality. Tap for 'keypad' if that wasn't the
last phone function you used. Dial 999, press green button.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

<martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
> On 18/08/2022 20:30, Theo wrote:
>> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>> I *think* I'd probably have phoned 999, though I might have wondered whether
>>> it would be regarded as a frivolous use of the number. Phoning your MP is a
>>> strange one: how many people know who their MP is, never mind what his phone
>>> number is? Phoning him after the event to get the problem publicised is a
>>> different matter, but in an emergency I'd try 999.
>>
>> There was a tweet:
>> https://twitter.com/di_gilmore/status/1559675571050872832
>>
>> Presumably Mr Farron was paying attention to Twitter at the time, got a
>> notification he was tagged (23:56), and was able to do something about it.
>>
>> According to the thread, he replied in 13 minutes (00:09), tried to get 'them'
>> (Avanti?) on the phone (00:19), failed, and then called the emergency services
>> (00:23). By 00:32 he reported:
>>
>> "I’ve just spoken to Cumbria police who were helpful and are now seeking a
>> resolution… I’m not quite sure what that will look like, but they are on to
>> it. Please keep me posted."
>>
>> Apparently a member of NR staff turned up after about 45 minutes.
>>
>>
>> Quite a way beyond the call of duty on the part of their MP, I think.
>>
>
> What worries me is that none of these passengers thought to call the
> police for themselves.
>

We don't know that someone didn't also do that, as well as the more
publicised version of events.

> Common sense seems to have been totally outbred from a large proportion
> of the UK human race.
>

It's interesting to note that at this point the train is still in the
station, visible in the background of the picture in that tweet, and will
be there for another five minutes, having arrived at the station 12 minutes
earlier.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On 18/08/2022 20:45, NY wrote:
> I had suspected that emergency numbers invoked the sending of GPS
> coordinates, because once when my wife reported seeing a car that seemed to
> be nose-first down an embankment beside the A1, the call handler said "Ah
> yes, I see you're calling from near Kirk Smeaton. Is it north or south
> carriageway?" before she'd even started to describe her location. But I
> thought the phone was interrogated after the connection had been set up the
> normal way, rather than being passed as part of the special-case call-setup
> procedure.

Someone I knew had (legally) access to various things on mobile phone
and could check location. At that time, if the phone had 'Location'
enabled then he could see which side of the road they were. But if
'Location' was not enabled then it used triangulation which is less precise.

He once called me at a friend's house after checking my location from my
mobile phone. :-)

On 18/08/2022 20:46, NY wrote:
> Fire brigade with an angle-grinder?

Once spoke to the fire brigade when we were checking arrangement for
access to one of our sites in an emergency if the door was locked and no
answer from the person inside. They said they would put a chain around
one of the ventilation cowls and rip off the wall.

On Fri, 19 Aug 2022 07:49:30 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
wrote:

>In message <tdmk5k$1lg6$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 01:06:11 on Fri, 19 Aug
>2022, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk" <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> remarked:
>
>>The number 411 was simply for local directory enquiries, by the way. To
>>figure out a number anywhere else in NANP, one dials the area code and
>>555-1212.
>
>Hence and otherwise, why numbers in Hollywood movies and TV shows very
>often had "555" in them. Because it's not very likely to be anyone's
>actual number.

That hasn't been the case for years in the *primary* (i.e. original)
area code 604 for British Columbia... 555- is in use in an area east
of Vancouver.

On Fri, 19 Aug 2022 14:31:30 +0100, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk"
<hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>On 19/08/2022 01:51, Nobody wrote:
>> On Fri, 19 Aug 2022 01:06:11 +0100, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk"
>> <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 18/08/2022 20:14, Nobody wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 18 Aug 2022 18:14:04 +0100, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk"
>>>> <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 18/08/2022 17:44, Nobody wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 18 Aug 2022 15:54:12 +0100, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk"
>>>>>> <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 18/08/2022 14:57, NY wrote:
>>>>>>>> "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:hF+93hVUAk$iFA$e@perry.uk...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Regardless of EU rules, I believe most smartphones can recognise
>>>>>>>>>> emergency numbers and redirect the calls to the correct one for the
>>>>>>>>>> location.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Even 911 when you are playing tourist in the USA?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I've wondered that: whether UK/Europe mobile phone companies accept 911
>>>>>>>> as an alternative to 999/112. I bet the converse isn't true - that US
>>>>>>>> mobile companies accept 112/999 - because "eny fule no" that for most
>>>>>>>> Americans, the world ends at the US borders.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is not 112 universal now?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not in Canaduh nor the Excited States. 911 and 411 (directory
>>>>>> assistance, though who knew we still had *operators*?) have been
>>>>>> joined by several other -11's.
>>>>>
>>>>> 211 for credit on misdialled calls.
>>>>
>>>> Not specifically:
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.networkworld.com/article/3134324/beyond-911-other-n-1-1-codes-you-should-know.html>
>>>>
>>>
>>> It appears to have changed from what I originally understood its purpose
>>> to be.
>>>
>>> The number 411 was simply for local directory enquiries, by the way. To
>>> figure out a number anywhere else in NANP, one dials the area code and
>>> 555-1212.
>>
>> You're living in the past...
>
>I'm not living in the past. I am simply describing what was the case
>around the turn of the century.

Over 20 years ago...

On 19/08/2022 03:45, Charles Ellson wrote:
> Possibly in some areas if that was deemed expedient; someone from NR
> can turn up later with a new one. The FB might also have
> non-destructive access available (even a standard key?) as part of
> routine knowledge of locations in their area which have a special
> risk.

Gets 'interesting' when they use electronic locks that can be unlocked
remotely. I have known two occasions when BT could not get into an
exchange after lightning and had to send someone (from many miles away)
with a real key.

On 19/08/2022 11:26, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
> Common sense seems to have been totally outbred from a large proportion
> of the UK human race.

As well as dire warnings of what will happen to you if you call 999
unnecessarily for a non-emergency.

On 19/08/2022 11:46, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> Though the americans had a suitable compromise with 911. 999 was one of the
> worst numbers to choose as an emergency number for rotary phones. Only using
> 000 or some combination of 9 and 0 would have been worse.

It might appear so to someone unfamiliar with the PSTN.

On Fri, 19 Aug 2022 16:34:20 +0100
MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>On 19/08/2022 11:46, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> Though the americans had a suitable compromise with 911. 999 was one of the
>> worst numbers to choose as an emergency number for rotary phones. Only using
>> 000 or some combination of 9 and 0 would have been worse.
>
>It might appear so to someone unfamiliar with the PSTN.

I'm aware of stray voltages masquerading as a 1. Thats why I said 911 was the
best compromise. 999 is rather slow to dial on a rotary phone, not ideal in a
life or death situation is it?

On Fri, 19 Aug 2022 15:17:41 -0000 (UTC)
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 18 Aug 2022 19:35:51 -0000 (UTC)
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> iPhones can do that, press the power button 5 times[1] in rapid
>>>> succession and it calls the emergency services and gives them your
>>>> location and texts a preselected contact number as well.
>>>>
>>>> [1] There are alternative ways of doing it but they involve pressing the
>>>> pwer button and a volume control at the same time which, on my phone at
>>>> least, is too easy to do accidentally.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Power button five times, or power and volume for three seconds [1] both
>>> open a screen with has the following options:
>>>
>>> Slide for power off
>>>
>>> Slide to show your medical ID (as entered into the relevant section of
>>> phone settings) including option to call your designated emergency contact
>>> (as specified in your contact list, and will usually be next of kin)
>>>
>>> Slide to call call emergency services
>>
>> Hardly intuitive in an emergency situation or quick compared to pressing
>> 1 button.
>>
>
>Dialling 999 still works.
>
>Unlock phone (passcode or faceID). Close whatever app you last had open.
>Tap icon to open phone functionality. Tap for 'keypad' if that wasn't the
>last phone function you used. Dial 999, press green button.

Thank god we still have landlines for now.

On 19/08/2022 16:26, Nobody wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Aug 2022 14:31:30 +0100, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk"
> <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 19/08/2022 01:51, Nobody wrote:
>>> On Fri, 19 Aug 2022 01:06:11 +0100, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk"
>>> <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 18/08/2022 20:14, Nobody wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 18 Aug 2022 18:14:04 +0100, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk"
>>>>> <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 18/08/2022 17:44, Nobody wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 18 Aug 2022 15:54:12 +0100, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk"
>>>>>>> <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 18/08/2022 14:57, NY wrote:
>>>>>>>>> "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> news:hF+93hVUAk$iFA$e@perry.uk...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Regardless of EU rules, I believe most smartphones can recognise
>>>>>>>>>>> emergency numbers and redirect the calls to the correct one for the
>>>>>>>>>>> location.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Even 911 when you are playing tourist in the USA?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I've wondered that: whether UK/Europe mobile phone companies accept 911
>>>>>>>>> as an alternative to 999/112. I bet the converse isn't true - that US
>>>>>>>>> mobile companies accept 112/999 - because "eny fule no" that for most
>>>>>>>>> Americans, the world ends at the US borders.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Is not 112 universal now?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not in Canaduh nor the Excited States. 911 and 411 (directory
>>>>>>> assistance, though who knew we still had *operators*?) have been
>>>>>>> joined by several other -11's.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 211 for credit on misdialled calls.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not specifically:
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.networkworld.com/article/3134324/beyond-911-other-n-1-1-codes-you-should-know.html>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It appears to have changed from what I originally understood its purpose
>>>> to be.
>>>>
>>>> The number 411 was simply for local directory enquiries, by the way. To
>>>> figure out a number anywhere else in NANP, one dials the area code and
>>>> 555-1212.
>>>
>>> You're living in the past...
>>
>> I'm not living in the past. I am simply describing what was the case
>> around the turn of the century.
>
> Over 20 years ago...

I was describing something around the turn of the century, like I said,
though I gave the caveat that perhaps I did not sufficiently stress the
past tense.