On 23/04/2023 13:01, Recliner wrote:
> Graham Harrison <edward.harrisom.one@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 22 Apr 2023 11:37:17 +0100, Jack Harry Teesdale
>> <noreply492000-medic@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> Reports have emerged that use of bio-diesel fuels being used to cut
>>> carbon emissions have caused fuel filters to clog up resulting in train
>>> cancellations on SWR, almost cutting off Salisbury and Exeter trains
>>> from the capital.
>>
>> Does anyone know what tests they undertook before using the bio-fuel?
>>
>
> Good question, and why didn't they try it in just a couple of engines in
> different units for, say, three months?
>
> It sounds like the engines can keep running with reduced fuel flow, and
> hence limited power, even if affected, so a single affected engine in a
> three-car unit shouldn't require it to be removed from service.
>
Only 30 of the 117 units in the fleet have been affected so far, so it
would seem to have been a partial trial of some sort.

If the Fuel filters are fully blocked, of course the engines would be
completely starved of fuel, which seems to have been the issue.

On Sun, 23 Apr 2023 13:19:40 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 23 Apr 2023 13:49:42 +0100, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 23/04/2023 13:01, Recliner wrote:
>>>> Graham Harrison <edward.harrisom.one@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 22 Apr 2023 11:37:17 +0100, Jack Harry Teesdale
>>>>> <noreply492000-medic@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Reports have emerged that use of bio-diesel fuels being used to cut
>>>>>> carbon emissions have caused fuel filters to clog up resulting in train
>>>>>> cancellations on SWR, almost cutting off Salisbury and Exeter trains
>>>>>> from the capital.
>>>>>
>>>>> Does anyone know what tests they undertook before using the bio-fuel?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Good question, and why didn't they try it in just a couple of engines in
>>>> different units for, say, three months?
>>>>
>>>> It sounds like the engines can keep running with reduced fuel flow, and
>>>> hence limited power, even if affected, so a single affected engine in a
>>>> three-car unit shouldn't require it to be removed from service.
>>>>
>>> Presumabely the complete unit was fuelled from the same tanks so it
>>> makes sense to take an ailing unit out of the way at the first opportunity.
>>
>> Yes, probably, but I'm suggesting that they should only have tested the
>> fuel in one engine per unit, and only in a few
>> units.
>>
>
>I’ve a certain sympathy with SWR. My petrol lawnmower is running roughly
>and keeps cutting out. After reading up, it seems my mistake was to keep
>petrol from last autumn, and to fuel the mower with this just now. I’m a
>bit stuck wondering what to do with a couple of litres of the stuff.
>Experimentation with a metal tray yesterday shows it evaporates very
>slowly. I guess the only thing to do is to buy a new fuel can and mix in
>the old stuff gradually.

I took my mower for a service a few years ago and the first thing the
man did was sniff the fuel and tell me it was old. I have to admit
that was the first time I discovered oil based fuels lose their
potency. Some time later I learned about Aspen 4 alkylate 4-stroke
petrol (there's a 2 stroke version as well). I purchased some about 18
months ago and while, this year, my mower didn't start immediately it
did start on the Aspen fuel and I haven't used that mower for about 15
months.

I believe that type of petrol was almost a throw away product until
maybe 5/6 years ago.and then a use was found for it (please correct
me!).I

Graham Harrison <edward.harrisom.one@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 23 Apr 2023 13:19:40 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 23 Apr 2023 13:49:42 +0100, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 23/04/2023 13:01, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> Graham Harrison <edward.harrisom.one@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Sat, 22 Apr 2023 11:37:17 +0100, Jack Harry Teesdale
>>>>>> <noreply492000-medic@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Reports have emerged that use of bio-diesel fuels being used to cut
>>>>>>> carbon emissions have caused fuel filters to clog up resulting in train
>>>>>>> cancellations on SWR, almost cutting off Salisbury and Exeter trains
>>>>>>> from the capital.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Does anyone know what tests they undertook before using the bio-fuel?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Good question, and why didn't they try it in just a couple of engines in
>>>>> different units for, say, three months?
>>>>>
>>>>> It sounds like the engines can keep running with reduced fuel flow, and
>>>>> hence limited power, even if affected, so a single affected engine in a
>>>>> three-car unit shouldn't require it to be removed from service.
>>>>>
>>>> Presumabely the complete unit was fuelled from the same tanks so it
>>>> makes sense to take an ailing unit out of the way at the first opportunity.
>>>
>>> Yes, probably, but I'm suggesting that they should only have tested the
>>> fuel in one engine per unit, and only in a few
>>> units.
>>>
>>
>> I’ve a certain sympathy with SWR. My petrol lawnmower is running roughly
>> and keeps cutting out. After reading up, it seems my mistake was to keep
>> petrol from last autumn, and to fuel the mower with this just now. I’m a
>> bit stuck wondering what to do with a couple of litres of the stuff.
>> Experimentation with a metal tray yesterday shows it evaporates very
>> slowly. I guess the only thing to do is to buy a new fuel can and mix in
>> the old stuff gradually.
>
> I took my mower for a service a few years ago and the first thing the
> man did was sniff the fuel and tell me it was old. I have to admit
> that was the first time I discovered oil based fuels lose their
> potency. Some time later I learned about Aspen 4 alkylate 4-stroke
> petrol (there's a 2 stroke version as well). I purchased some about 18
> months ago and while, this year, my mower didn't start immediately it
> did start on the Aspen fuel and I haven't used that mower for about 15
> months.
>
> I believe that type of petrol was almost a throw away product until
> maybe 5/6 years ago.and then a use was found for it (please correct
> me!).I
>

Thanks for that! I’ll track some down.

On 23/04/2023 09:29, Ken in Caen wrote:
> On 22 Apr 2023 at 12:37:17 CEST, "Jack Harry Teesdale"
> <noreply492000-medic@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Reports have emerged that use of bio-diesel fuels being used to cut
>> carbon emissions have caused fuel filters to clog up resulting in train
>> cancellations on SWR, almost cutting off Salisbury and Exeter trains
>> from the capital.
>
> Very strange. It's at least 10 years since I was first introduced to additives
> for bio-diesel fuel. This was in the context of Thames river boats being
> fitted with engines from Cummins and, I think, MAN. Which AIUI are not
> dissimilar to those used in rail traction.
>
> From memory the additives were tested by various organisations such as the
> PLA, Imperial College and Cranfield and found to be satisfactory, preventing
> the formation of harmful solids.
>
> Sorry I no longer have my info from those days to hand, but I will make some
> enquiries in the coming days.
>
> Ken
According to reports it is not the engines that are the problem but that
the fuel filters are 'clogging up'.

The mix in the bio-fuel must be of a different consistency than that you
are referring to.

In reality eco-solutions usually have some or other unforseen drawback
which is why they were never seriously considered previously.

That said I suppose the engineers will find a solution to the issue but
the disruption to passengers has already been caused, some would say
unnecessarily!

On 23/04/2023 13:01, Recliner wrote:
> Graham Harrison <edward.harrisom.one@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 22 Apr 2023 11:37:17 +0100, Jack Harry Teesdale
>> <noreply492000-medic@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> Reports have emerged that use of bio-diesel fuels being used to cut
>>> carbon emissions have caused fuel filters to clog up resulting in train
>>> cancellations on SWR, almost cutting off Salisbury and Exeter trains
>>> from the capital.
>>
>> Does anyone know what tests they undertook before using the bio-fuel?
>>
>
> Good question, and why didn't they try it in just a couple of engines in
> different units for, say, three months?
>
> It sounds like the engines can keep running with reduced fuel flow, and
> hence limited power, even if affected, so a single affected engine in a
> three-car unit shouldn't require it to be removed from service.
>
Presumabely the complete unit was fuelled from the same tanks so it
makes sense to take an ailing unit out of the way at the first opportunity.

On Sun, 23 Apr 2023 13:49:29 +0100, Jack Harry Teesdale <noreply492000-medic@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>On 23/04/2023 13:01, Recliner wrote:
>> Graham Harrison <edward.harrisom.one@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>> On Sat, 22 Apr 2023 11:37:17 +0100, Jack Harry Teesdale
>>> <noreply492000-medic@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Reports have emerged that use of bio-diesel fuels being used to cut
>>>> carbon emissions have caused fuel filters to clog up resulting in train
>>>> cancellations on SWR, almost cutting off Salisbury and Exeter trains
>>>> from the capital.
>>>
>>> Does anyone know what tests they undertook before using the bio-fuel?
>>>
>>
>> Good question, and why didn't they try it in just a couple of engines in
>> different units for, say, three months?
>>
>> It sounds like the engines can keep running with reduced fuel flow, and
>> hence limited power, even if affected, so a single affected engine in a
>> three-car unit shouldn't require it to be removed from service.
>>
>Only 30 of the 117 units in the fleet have been affected so far, so it
>would seem to have been a partial trial of some sort.

But still quite a large trial, particularly if all the engines in those units were so-fuelled.

>
>If the Fuel filters are fully blocked, of course the engines would be
>completely starved of fuel, which seems to have been the issue.

SWR tweeted:
"An issue with the biofuel used by those trains has caused blockages in their fuel filters, which has reduced their
power and performance.

Those trains have been withdrawn for inspections and maintenance and we’re now investigating the root cause of the
problem."

So it sounds like the engines did keep running, but with reduced performance. If only one engine in a unit was
affected, it should have allowed the unit to stay in service until the tanks could be drained and filters cleaned.

On Sun, 23 Apr 2023 13:49:42 +0100, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:

>On 23/04/2023 13:01, Recliner wrote:
>> Graham Harrison <edward.harrisom.one@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>> On Sat, 22 Apr 2023 11:37:17 +0100, Jack Harry Teesdale
>>> <noreply492000-medic@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Reports have emerged that use of bio-diesel fuels being used to cut
>>>> carbon emissions have caused fuel filters to clog up resulting in train
>>>> cancellations on SWR, almost cutting off Salisbury and Exeter trains
>>>> from the capital.
>>>
>>> Does anyone know what tests they undertook before using the bio-fuel?
>>>
>>
>> Good question, and why didn't they try it in just a couple of engines in
>> different units for, say, three months?
>>
>> It sounds like the engines can keep running with reduced fuel flow, and
>> hence limited power, even if affected, so a single affected engine in a
>> three-car unit shouldn't require it to be removed from service.
>>
>Presumabely the complete unit was fuelled from the same tanks so it
>makes sense to take an ailing unit out of the way at the first opportunity.

Yes, probably, but I'm suggesting that they should only have tested the fuel in one engine per unit, and only in a few
units.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 23 Apr 2023 13:49:42 +0100, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 23/04/2023 13:01, Recliner wrote:
>>> Graham Harrison <edward.harrisom.one@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 22 Apr 2023 11:37:17 +0100, Jack Harry Teesdale
>>>> <noreply492000-medic@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Reports have emerged that use of bio-diesel fuels being used to cut
>>>>> carbon emissions have caused fuel filters to clog up resulting in train
>>>>> cancellations on SWR, almost cutting off Salisbury and Exeter trains
>>>>> from the capital.
>>>>
>>>> Does anyone know what tests they undertook before using the bio-fuel?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Good question, and why didn't they try it in just a couple of engines in
>>> different units for, say, three months?
>>>
>>> It sounds like the engines can keep running with reduced fuel flow, and
>>> hence limited power, even if affected, so a single affected engine in a
>>> three-car unit shouldn't require it to be removed from service.
>>>
>> Presumabely the complete unit was fuelled from the same tanks so it
>> makes sense to take an ailing unit out of the way at the first opportunity.
>
> Yes, probably, but I'm suggesting that they should only have tested the
> fuel in one engine per unit, and only in a few
> units.
>

I’ve a certain sympathy with SWR. My petrol lawnmower is running roughly
and keeps cutting out. After reading up, it seems my mistake was to keep
petrol from last autumn, and to fuel the mower with this just now. I’m a
bit stuck wondering what to do with a couple of litres of the stuff.
Experimentation with a metal tray yesterday shows it evaporates very
slowly. I guess the only thing to do is to buy a new fuel can and mix in
the old stuff gradually.

On Sat, 22 Apr 2023 18:45:37 +0200
Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>On 22.04.23 16:47, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> On Sat, 22 Apr 2023 12:03:59 +0100
>> Jack Harry Teesdale <noreply492000-medic@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 22/04/2023 11:54, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 22 Apr 2023 11:46:00 +0100
>>>> Jack Harry Teesdale <noreply492000-medic@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 22/04/2023 11:39, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Sat, 22 Apr 2023 11:37:17 +0100
>>>>>> Jack Harry Teesdale <noreply492000-medic@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> Reports have emerged that use of bio-diesel fuels being used to cut
>>>>>>> carbon emissions have caused fuel filters to clog up resulting in train
>>>>>>> cancellations on SWR, almost cutting off Salisbury and Exeter trains
>>>>>> >from the capital.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bits of old chip and batter?
>>>>>>
>>>>> Very likely, it seems it forms an algae in the fuel tanks which blocks
>>>>> the filters.
>>>>>
>>>>> At least 30 of their units have so far been affected.
>>>>
>>>> At least the fuel filters are doing their job.
>>>>
>>>> Is the fuel pure biodiesel or a blend? Forecourt diesel is 5% biodiesel now
>
>>>> but I haven't read of any issues like this in road vehicles.
>>>>
>>> AFAIK it is a biodegradable fuel containing, vegetable oil, animal fats
>>> and recycled 'kitchen waste' oil or grease.
>>
>> Sounds more like the sort of crap you'd put in an oil burner not a finely
>tuned
>> rather expensive modern diesel engine.
>
>The design of the engine in those units has its roots in the 1950s and
>essentially is a 1970s design. Not really a "finely tuned modern diesel
>engine".

The designs of all ICEs are rooted 120 years ago. That doesn't mean the modern
kit added to them - eg high pressure injectors - can't be screwed up by poor
fuel.

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> I’ve a certain sympathy with SWR. My petrol lawnmower is running roughly
> and keeps cutting out. After reading up, it seems my mistake was to keep
> petrol from last autumn, and to fuel the mower with this just now. I’m a
> bit stuck wondering what to do with a couple of litres of the stuff.
> Experimentation with a metal tray yesterday shows it evaporates very
> slowly. I guess the only thing to do is to buy a new fuel can and mix in
> the old stuff gradually.

Put it in a petrol car - a couple of litres will be diluted by a full tank
of fresh petrol. Probably a less good plan if it's premixed with 2-stroke
oil, though.

It's not evaporating because the most volatile fraction has already
evaporated while it was stored.

Theo

Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I’ve a certain sympathy with SWR. My petrol lawnmower is running roughly
>> and keeps cutting out. After reading up, it seems my mistake was to keep
>> petrol from last autumn, and to fuel the mower with this just now. I’m a
>> bit stuck wondering what to do with a couple of litres of the stuff.
>> Experimentation with a metal tray yesterday shows it evaporates very
>> slowly. I guess the only thing to do is to buy a new fuel can and mix in
>> the old stuff gradually.
>
> Put it in a petrol car - a couple of litres will be diluted by a full tank
> of fresh petrol. Probably a less good plan if it's premixed with 2-stroke
> oil, though.
>
> It's not evaporating because the most volatile fraction has already
> evaporated while it was stored.
>
> Theo
>

A good idea, except both my cars are Diesel. I think my neighbours would
regard my offer of free fuel with suspicion…..

On Sat, 22 Apr 2023 11:37:17 +0100, Jack Harry Teesdale <noreply492000-medic@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>Reports have emerged that use of bio-diesel fuels being used to cut
>carbon emissions have caused fuel filters to clog up resulting in train
>cancellations on SWR, almost cutting off Salisbury and Exeter trains
>from the capital.

Meanwhile, high over the Atlantic...

https://www.flightglobal.com/air-transport/virgin-readies-for-ground-breaking-transatlantic-saf-flight/152898.article