I am looking at buying a new monitor. The one I like is 75Hz but as
far as I can see my graphics adapter only runs at 60Hz (Intel UHD
Graphics 730). Can I assume any monitor will run at 60Hz? Am I
missing something?

On 7/24/2023 6:28 AM, Scott wrote:
> I am looking at buying a new monitor. The one I like is 75Hz but as
> far as I can see my graphics adapter only runs at 60Hz (Intel UHD
> Graphics 730). Can I assume any monitor will run at 60Hz? Am I
> missing something?
>

If you use Entechtaiwan Moninfo, you will find the monitor advertising
all sorts of silly stuff.

The NVidia control panel on the other hand, tends to toss out the
less-than-direct configurations, and sticks with the ones that have
a reason to exist. This is a gamer monitor with 120Hz capability, and
yet, the NVidia panel only lists 60Hz and 120Hz as options. There's no 85Hz
offered.

https://pcmonitors.info/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/PG32UQX-refresh-rates-Full-HD-1-HDMI.png

An "ordinary" monitor, won't go to 120Hz. Ordinary monitors would still be 60Hz today.

In the old days, 75Hz was achieved by throwing away 1 frame in five
(4x15 versus 5x15, so one in five need be removed to get to 60Hz).
To do 72Hz, another of the "bogus" values, you would toss 1 frame in six
(5x12 versus 6x12, so one in six need be removed to get to 60Hz).

Monitors also have two schemes for supporting variable frame
rates caused by performance variation in game rendering on a GPU.
This allows better apparent performance. The video card supports
one of the methods, so you have to match your video card to your
monitor, for the variable feature to work.

I would say "connect it up and it will work". Because, let us say
that they were idiots, and it really was a 75Hz totally-inflexible
panel. Think of the customer returns, and the expense for sellers,
dealing with such a product. The product had bloody well work.
It had better work with the all-too-common Intel GPU.

There have been a few brands which had "issues". You always check
the reviews for a monitor, to spot such a pattern. It might have
been a couple Samsung or LG monitors, where for some reason the
HDMI input did not seem to work. I expect most of those got returned,
because nobody could figure out a "success formula" to trick it into
working. I'm sure they tested it at the factory, and there's some
"assumption" somebody got wrong along the way. But for the people who
had the problem, returning it was the solution.

Normally, when debugging a DOA monitor, you connect two monitors,
and use the good one for "steering". Configure the duff monitor as
the "extension" one, while you play with the resolution and refresh
choices.

Paul

Scott wrote:

> I am looking at buying a new monitor. The one I like is 75Hz but as
> far as I can see my graphics adapter only runs at 60Hz (Intel UHD
> Graphics 730). Can I assume any monitor will run at 60Hz?

Pretty well all will, most are multiples of 30Hz now, generally higher
than 60Hz is gamer territory, for some reason this laptop (not a gamer
one) does 90Hz, you can only tell the difference if rapidly slinging
windows around with the mouse ...

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
> Scott wrote:
>
> > I am looking at buying a new monitor. The one I like is 75Hz but as
> > far as I can see my graphics adapter only runs at 60Hz (Intel UHD
> > Graphics 730). Can I assume any monitor will run at 60Hz?
>
> Pretty well all will, most are multiples of 30Hz now, generally higher
> than 60Hz is gamer territory, for some reason this laptop (not a gamer
> one) does 90Hz, you can only tell the difference if rapidly slinging
> windows around with the mouse ...

LCD monitors tend to have a set of built in profiles (width x height x
refresh), unlike CRTs where you could feed them with anything and they would
try to lock. The good news is that the computer reads the profiles the
monitor says it can do and only offers you those both the computer and the
monitor can handle.

So it is highly likely the monitor offers 1920x1080x60 (for example) as well
as 1920x1080x75, and the computer can just pick the first one.

Although it is quite possible the computer can actually generate the 75Hz
profile if not in the maximum mode, eg if the computer can do 3840x2160x60
it is possible it can also do 1920x1080x75. It's the total product (video
bandwidth) that is the limiting factor. So the 'up to 60Hz' limitation may
only apply in the maximum mode the computer can generate.

Theo

On Mon, 24 Jul 2023 13:55:36 +0100, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>
wrote:

>Scott wrote:
>
>> I am looking at buying a new monitor. The one I like is 75Hz but as
>> far as I can see my graphics adapter only runs at 60Hz (Intel UHD
>> Graphics 730). Can I assume any monitor will run at 60Hz?
>
>Pretty well all will, most are multiples of 30Hz now, generally higher
>than 60Hz is gamer territory, for some reason this laptop (not a gamer
>one) does 90Hz, you can only tell the difference if rapidly slinging
>windows around with the mouse ...

But does your graphics card do 90Hz or is the monitor in reality
operating at 60Hz? My present monitor is 60Hz. Could this be the
reason that nothing above 60Hz is shown in the PC settings? You have
certainly dissuaded me from buying the 165Hz model.

Scott wrote:

> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> for some reason this laptop (not a gamer
>> one) does 90Hz, you can only tell the difference if rapidly slinging
>> windows around with the mouse ...
>
> But does your graphics card do 90Hz or is the monitor in reality
> operating at 60Hz?

It's intel Iris Xe built-in graphics, and yes it's 90Hz

> My present monitor is 60Hz. Could this be the
> reason that nothing above 60Hz is shown in the PC settings? You have
> certainly dissuaded me from buying the 165Hz model.

In the same way the O/S limits the available resolutions to those the
graphics and monitor have in common, so it limits the refresh rate too.

On Mon, 24 Jul 2023 16:19:46 +0100, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>
wrote:

>Scott wrote:
>
>> Andy Burns wrote:
>>
>>> for some reason this laptop (not a gamer
>>> one) does 90Hz, you can only tell the difference if rapidly slinging
>>> windows around with the mouse ...
>>
>> But does your graphics card do 90Hz or is the monitor in reality
>> operating at 60Hz?
>
>It's intel Iris Xe built-in graphics, and yes it's 90Hz
>
>> My present monitor is 60Hz. Could this be the
>> reason that nothing above 60Hz is shown in the PC settings? You have
>> certainly dissuaded me from buying the 165Hz model.
>
>In the same way the O/S limits the available resolutions to those the
>graphics and monitor have in common, so it limits the refresh rate too.

Is there a reliable way to know the capabilities of my graphics as the
publicity seems to be unclear?

On Mon, 24 Jul 2023 16:19:46 +0100, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>
wrote:
[snip]
>In the same way the O/S limits the available resolutions to those the
>graphics and monitor have in common, so it limits the refresh rate too.

Sorry to be a nuisance but can I take it from this that for a
'standard' monitor anything up to 240Hz will be supported and
therefore 75Hz will be easy peasy:
https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/support/articles/000090017/graphics.html#:~:text=The%20supported%20Maximum%20Refresh%20Frequency,rate%20information%20on%20different%20resolutions

Scott wrote:

> can I take it from this that for a
> 'standard' monitor anything up to 240Hz will be supported

For fullHD resolution you should be OK up to 120Hz, but don't you want
higher than fullHD? Depending on what interface (HDMI, DP, VGA) you're
using, and the specific spec version 1.4/2.0/2.1 of HDMI/DP

<https://www.coolblue.nl/en/advice/differences-hdmi-displayport.html#id-the-difference>

240Hz is getting exotic and probably needs compression.

> and therefore 75Hz will be easy peasy:

still think it's an odd-ball frequency, would want to see it listed by
both the card and the monitor

> https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/support/articles/000090017/graphics.html#:~:text=The%20supported%20Maximum%20Refresh%20Frequency,rate%20information%20on%20different%20resolutions

On 7/24/2023 12:18 PM, Scott wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Jul 2023 16:19:46 +0100, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> Scott wrote:
>>
>>> Andy Burns wrote:
>>>
>>>> for some reason this laptop (not a gamer
>>>> one) does 90Hz, you can only tell the difference if rapidly slinging
>>>> windows around with the mouse ...
>>>
>>> But does your graphics card do 90Hz or is the monitor in reality
>>> operating at 60Hz?
>>
>> It's intel Iris Xe built-in graphics, and yes it's 90Hz
>>
>>> My present monitor is 60Hz. Could this be the
>>> reason that nothing above 60Hz is shown in the PC settings? You have
>>> certainly dissuaded me from buying the 165Hz model.
>>
>> In the same way the O/S limits the available resolutions to those the
>> graphics and monitor have in common, so it limits the refresh rate too.
>
> Is there a reliable way to know the capabilities of my graphics as the
> publicity seems to be unclear?
>

Sure.

It can do *anything*, up to the metal limit of the cable.

You have to know the standard. Like is the DisplayPort version 1.4 or
is it 2.0 . That's a thing you check on the GPU side.

if the standard is DP 1.4 and the spec on the side of the computer
tin says "18Gbit/sec max datarate to cable", then that's a limit on
the highest combination of settings the card can use.

Video card horizontal, is in multiples of 8. For example, 1360 and 1368
are "valid" divisible-by-8 values for screen width. Yet, there are panels
designed to 1366 width, and in that case, the video card can generate 1360
or 1368.

Vertical is divisible by 2, and this covers interleaved and progressive
display options. The height could be 766, 768, 770 as generated by the video card.

If a Silicon Image generator chip is used external to the GPU,
the synthesizer on that can do x1,x1 and can do odd screen sizes 1367x767.
But hardly any company offers us such beauties.

The Mode Line is a series of registers in the video card. You can program
any integer number in there, and make any kind of display you want.
But after the noise settles, you aim for your mode line maths to be
divisible by 8 horizontally and divisible by 2 vertically.

You can have any refresh you want.

Then, it is up to the monitor, to decide what response it will make,
when you select something really really goofy. It can display "Out of Range"
on the OSD for example. That's a way of saying "piss off with the goofy settings".

Summary: Video card is infinitely flexible (up to the wire limits of the standard it supports).
Entechtaiwan Powerstrip program, allowed entering custom mode lines into a GPU (in Windows).

LCD monitor has refresh limits. The monitor is likely to have a scaler inside (for non-native res).

Cable length and datarate selection,
can cause transmission errors on a too-long cable.
Just because the video card can generate 18Gbit/sec, does not mean
the cable magically has to like it. This would not be an issue
at 1920x1080.

When buying a 4K monitor, that's when you check your Intel GPU to see if
it supports a 4K monitor at 30FPS or 60FPS. The stinky ones were only 30FPS.
This would be embodied in the HDMI or DP standards version number, and that's
one way to track it down. In general, they don't make this process easy.

Paul

On 7/24/2023 1:23 PM, Andy Burns wrote:
>
> Scott wrote:
>
>> can I take it from this that for a
>> 'standard' monitor anything up to 240Hz will be supported
>
> For fullHD resolution you should be OK up to 120Hz, but don't you want higher than fullHD?  Depending on what interface (HDMI, DP, VGA) you're using, and the specific spec version 1.4/2.0/2.1 of HDMI/DP
>
> <https://www.coolblue.nl/en/advice/differences-hdmi-displayport.html#id-the-difference>
>
> 240Hz is getting exotic and probably needs compression.
>
>> and therefore 75Hz will be easy peasy:
>
> still think it's an odd-ball frequency, would want to see it listed by both the card and the monitor
>
>> https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/support/articles/000090017/graphics.html#:~:text=The%20supported%20Maximum%20Refresh%20Frequency,rate%20information%20on%20different%20resolutions
>

If we knew the monitor make and model number, that would make
it easier to research the "75 Hz" thing.

Paul

Yes all down to drivers, so I use the TV. I cannot see it, but people tell
me it looks fine. This will connect via hdmi, but I use a little adaptor
plugged into the vga port and amongst other things it seems to simulate what
the pc is looking for and on the other end, what the tv wants. Best of both
worlds.
Brian

--

--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Paul" <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote in message
news:u9ls2k$ljtg$1@dont-email.me...
> On 7/24/2023 6:28 AM, Scott wrote:
>> I am looking at buying a new monitor. The one I like is 75Hz but as
>> far as I can see my graphics adapter only runs at 60Hz (Intel UHD
>> Graphics 730). Can I assume any monitor will run at 60Hz? Am I
>> missing something?
>>
>
> If you use Entechtaiwan Moninfo, you will find the monitor advertising
> all sorts of silly stuff.
>
> The NVidia control panel on the other hand, tends to toss out the
> less-than-direct configurations, and sticks with the ones that have
> a reason to exist. This is a gamer monitor with 120Hz capability, and
> yet, the NVidia panel only lists 60Hz and 120Hz as options. There's no
> 85Hz
> offered.
>
> https://pcmonitors.info/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/PG32UQX-refresh-rates-Full-HD-1-HDMI.png
>
> An "ordinary" monitor, won't go to 120Hz. Ordinary monitors would still be
> 60Hz today.
>
> In the old days, 75Hz was achieved by throwing away 1 frame in five
> (4x15 versus 5x15, so one in five need be removed to get to 60Hz).
> To do 72Hz, another of the "bogus" values, you would toss 1 frame in six
> (5x12 versus 6x12, so one in six need be removed to get to 60Hz).
>
> Monitors also have two schemes for supporting variable frame
> rates caused by performance variation in game rendering on a GPU.
> This allows better apparent performance. The video card supports
> one of the methods, so you have to match your video card to your
> monitor, for the variable feature to work.
>
> I would say "connect it up and it will work". Because, let us say
> that they were idiots, and it really was a 75Hz totally-inflexible
> panel. Think of the customer returns, and the expense for sellers,
> dealing with such a product. The product had bloody well work.
> It had better work with the all-too-common Intel GPU.
>
> There have been a few brands which had "issues". You always check
> the reviews for a monitor, to spot such a pattern. It might have
> been a couple Samsung or LG monitors, where for some reason the
> HDMI input did not seem to work. I expect most of those got returned,
> because nobody could figure out a "success formula" to trick it into
> working. I'm sure they tested it at the factory, and there's some
> "assumption" somebody got wrong along the way. But for the people who
> had the problem, returning it was the solution.
>
> Normally, when debugging a DOA monitor, you connect two monitors,
> and use the good one for "steering". Configure the duff monitor as
> the "extension" one, while you play with the resolution and refresh
> choices.
>
> Paul

On Mon, 24 Jul 2023 15:45:40 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>
wrote:

>On 7/24/2023 1:23 PM, Andy Burns wrote:
>>
>> Scott wrote:
>>
>>> can I take it from this that for a
>>> 'standard' monitor anything up to 240Hz will be supported
>>
>> For fullHD resolution you should be OK up to 120Hz, but don't you want higher than fullHD?  Depending on what interface (HDMI, DP, VGA) you're using, and the specific spec version 1.4/2.0/2.1 of HDMI/DP
>>
>> <https://www.coolblue.nl/en/advice/differences-hdmi-displayport.html#id-the-difference>
>>
>> 240Hz is getting exotic and probably needs compression.
>>
>>> and therefore 75Hz will be easy peasy:
>>
>> still think it's an odd-ball frequency, would want to see it listed by both the card and the monitor
>>
>>> https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/support/articles/000090017/graphics.html#:~:text=The%20supported%20Maximum%20Refresh%20Frequency,rate%20information%20on%20different%20resolutions
>>
>If we knew the monitor make and model number, that would make
>it easier to research the "75 Hz" thing.
>
This is the one I am thinking about:
https://www.argos.co.uk/product/2018124?clickPR=plp:2:2

I don't do gaming so I do not have high demands. Most of the monitors
at Argos seem to be 75 Hz. I like the claims about eye protection
(blue light) but maybe this applies to all decent monitors? I see my
PC has DP socket but it seems to me that only the more expensive
monitors support this feature which I would buy if recommended but it
seems to me to be unnecessary for non-gamers with only monitor.

Scott wrote:

> https://www.argos.co.uk/product/2018124?clickPR=plp:2:2

What an odd link ... in firefox it opens up a new window (rather than
tab) and then switches to view the page source ...

On Tue, 25 Jul 2023 09:27:17 +0100, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>
wrote:

>Scott wrote:
>
>> https://www.argos.co.uk/product/2018124?clickPR=plp:2:2
>
>What an odd link ... in firefox it opens up a new window (rather than
>tab) and then switches to view the page source ...

Very odd. On Google it opens uneventfully.

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
> Scott wrote:
>
> > https://www.argos.co.uk/product/2018124?clickPR=plp:2:2
>
> What an odd link ... in firefox it opens up a new window (rather than
> tab) and then switches to view the page source ...

You have something screwy with extensions? 'view source' should never be
something a web page can open (unless it's a web page displaying text that
happens to be HTML source, but that's not the browser's 'view source'
function).

It opens normally for me in Firefox/Ubuntu. ASUS VA247HE is the model.

Theo

On 25/07/2023 11:42, Theo wrote:

> Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
>> Scott wrote:
>>
>>> https://www.argos.co.uk/product/2018124?clickPR=plp:2:2
>>
>> What an odd link ... in firefox it opens up a new window (rather than
>> tab) and then switches to view the page source ...
>
> You have something screwy with extensions?

disabled all extensions, it still did it
restarted firefox, it stopped doing it,
re-enabled the same extensions and restarted firefox, doing it again

I'll have to check for permutations of add-ons, I only use one that not
a well-known addon though, so will start there ...

> 'view source' should never be
> something a web page can open

I had assumed it shouldn't be possible, except by manually choosing to
view source, I wondered if it might hint of some form of exploitable
behaviour

Andy Burns wrote:

> I'll have to check for permutations of add-ons, I only use one that not
> a well-known addon though, so will start there ...

Yes, it's "Enable Right Click & Copy" by "Absolute", which prevents
sites using javascript to prevent copy/paste.

<https://addons.mozilla.org/en-GB/firefox/addon/absolute-enable-right-click>

On 7/25/2023 4:33 AM, Scott wrote:
> On Tue, 25 Jul 2023 09:27:17 +0100, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> Scott wrote:
>>
>>> https://www.argos.co.uk/product/2018124?clickPR=plp:2:2
>>
>> What an odd link ... in firefox it opens up a new window (rather than
>> tab) and then switches to view the page source ...
>
> Very odd. On Google it opens uneventfully.
>
Thanks to the broken state of search, I can't find an EDID table.

It has an adaptive sync feature, and that may account for a claim
it is a 75Hz monitor. An unmodified VA panel is more likely to be 60Hz.

Paul

On Tue, 25 Jul 2023 12:02:15 +0100, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>
wrote:

>Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> I'll have to check for permutations of add-ons, I only use one that not
>> a well-known addon though, so will start there ...
>
>Yes, it's "Enable Right Click & Copy" by "Absolute", which prevents
>sites using javascript to prevent copy/paste.
>
><https://addons.mozilla.org/en-GB/firefox/addon/absolute-enable-right-click>

Apart from the problems with the Argos website, does this seem a
reasonable choice of monitor for basic use (no gaming, minimal video
editing)? My only concern is that it is HDMI not DP but I don't
suppose this matters from what you said earlier. I like the idea of
limiting the blue light (for eye care) and the three year warranty.

Scott wrote:

> Apart from the problems with the Argos website, does this seem a
> reasonable choice of monitor for basic use (no gaming, minimal video
> editing)?

Yes, even if it requires nvidia H-Sync/AMD FreeSync to do 75Hz, it'll
still do 60Hz with any graphics.

> My only concern is that it is HDMI not DP but I don't
> suppose this matters from what you said earlier.

Either will cope with fullHD at those refresh rates.

> I like the idea of
> limiting the blue light (for eye care) and the three year warranty.

On 25/07/2023 09:33, Scott wrote:
> On Tue, 25 Jul 2023 09:27:17 +0100, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> Scott wrote:
>>
>>> https://www.argos.co.uk/product/2018124?clickPR=plp:2:2
>>
>> What an odd link ... in firefox it opens up a new window (rather than
>> tab) and then switches to view the page source ...
>
> Very odd. On Google it opens uneventfully.

So does Edge.

Remember this monitor uses a VA panel (hence the name)
although it still claims to have a 178 degree viewing
angle, which I thought was only possible with an IPS
panel.

Do you do a lot of photography or use Lightroom or
Photoshop or similar ?. If so an IPS panel *might* be
a better choice.

On Fri, 28 Jul 2023 12:06:39 +0100, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>
wrote:

>Scott wrote:
>
>> Apart from the problems with the Argos website, does this seem a
>> reasonable choice of monitor for basic use (no gaming, minimal video
>> editing)?
>
>Yes, even if it requires nvidia H-Sync/AMD FreeSync to do 75Hz, it'll
>still do 60Hz with any graphics.
>
>> My only concern is that it is HDMI not DP but I don't
>> suppose this matters from what you said earlier.
>
>Either will cope with fullHD at those refresh rates.
>
>> I like the idea of
>> limiting the blue light (for eye care) and the three year warranty.

I got my new monitor, which seems fine for my purposes. Thank you for
your advice and patience.

As you predicted, the default refresh rate is 60Hz. However, there is
an option in W11 to change this to 74.97Hz (which works okay). Is
there any reason not to do this? It claims to use more power, but is
this significant?

On 8/1/2023 12:20 PM, Scott wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Jul 2023 12:06:39 +0100, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> Scott wrote:
>>
>>> Apart from the problems with the Argos website, does this seem a
>>> reasonable choice of monitor for basic use (no gaming, minimal video
>>> editing)?
>>
>> Yes, even if it requires nvidia H-Sync/AMD FreeSync to do 75Hz, it'll
>> still do 60Hz with any graphics.
>>
>>> My only concern is that it is HDMI not DP but I don't
>>> suppose this matters from what you said earlier.
>>
>> Either will cope with fullHD at those refresh rates.
>>
>>> I like the idea of
>>> limiting the blue light (for eye care) and the three year warranty.
>
> I got my new monitor, which seems fine for my purposes. Thank you for
> your advice and patience.
>
> As you predicted, the default refresh rate is 60Hz. However, there is
> an option in W11 to change this to 74.97Hz (which works okay). Is
> there any reason not to do this? It claims to use more power, but is
> this significant?
>

Some of your software uses "compositing", but this is not
likely to use a lot of extra power. You take a set of windows,
each stored in a pixmap -- the compositing arranges them on the
Z-axis, some being in-front-of others, and masking them off.
The purpose of doing this, is you can move windows around
on the screen, and the program generating the windows does
not need to compute a new view. Each program thinks it is
drawing a rectangular pixmap (even though parts of it, or all
of it, is covered up).

Linux, Windows, and Mac do this. It is quite a common feature.

Web browsers similarly composite, even when the scene in the
browser window is static and unchanging, something is recomputing
the stack of content, at frame rate. A browser could have seven
tasks running in Task Manager, one task generates nothing
but a movie rectangle, and that is composited into a web page
of text with the movie rectangle scaled to fit within
some dimension on the web page. Several tasks then, could be
preparing content for a single web page.

All of this takes some electricity, but if asked whether it
was 1 watt or 100 watts, I would think nearer the smaller end
of the scale.

The web page can be worse, because web pages,
while executing Javascript, ran rail the CPU on one core.
And that uses enough electricity, you can hear a fan speed up.

if anything, close browser windows when not using them. So
they cannot get into mischief.

Paul