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aus+uk / uk.rec.audio / Re: Two-core mains cable for speakers

SubjectAuthor
* Two-core mains cable for speakersD.M. Procida
+* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersTrevor Wilson
|+* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersPhil Allison
||`* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersTrevor Wilson
|| `* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersPhil Allison
||  `- Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersDon Pearce
|+- Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersJim Lesurf
|`* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersBrian Gaff \(Sofa\)
| `* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersTrevor Wilson
|  `* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersPhil Allison
|   +* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersTrevor Wilson
|   |`* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersPhil Allison
|   | +* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersTrevor Wilson
|   | |`* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersPhil Allison
|   | | `* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersTrevor Wilson
|   | |  `* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersPhil Allison
|   | |   `* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersTrevor Wilson
|   | |    +- Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersTrevor Wilson
|   | |    `* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersPhil Allison
|   | |     `* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersTrevor Wilson
|   | |      `* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersPhil Allison
|   | |       `* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersTrevor Wilson
|   | |        +* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersPhil Allison
|   | |        |`- Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersTrevor Wilson
|   | |        `* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersJim Lesurf
|   | |         `* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersTrevor Wilson
|   | |          +- Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersPhil Allison
|   | |          `* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersJim Lesurf
|   | |           `* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersTrevor Wilson
|   | |            +- Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersJim Lesurf
|   | |            `* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersRJH
|   | |             `* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersTrevor Wilson
|   | |              +* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersRJH
|   | |              |`- Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersTrevor Wilson
|   | |              +- Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersJim Lesurf
|   | |              `* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersDave Plowman (News)
|   | |               `* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersTrevor Wilson
|   | |                +* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersJim Lesurf
|   | |                |+- Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersDave Plowman (News)
|   | |                |`* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersTrevor Wilson
|   | |                | `* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersJim Lesurf
|   | |                |  `- Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersPhil Allison
|   | |                `* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersDave Plowman (News)
|   | |                 `- Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersTrevor Wilson
|   | `- Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersTrevor Wilson
|   `* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersJim Lesurf
|    `- Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersPhil Allison
+* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersWoody
|+* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersIan Jackson
||`* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersDon Pearce
|| +* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersJim Lesurf
|| |`* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersPhil Allison
|| | `- Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersJim Lesurf
|| `* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersTrevor Wilson
||  +* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersDon Pearce
||  |`* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersTrevor Wilson
||  | +- Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersTrevor Wilson
||  | +* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersPhil Allison
||  | |`* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersJim Lesurf
||  | | `* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersPhil Allison
||  | |  `* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersJim Lesurf
||  | |   `* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersPhil Allison
||  | |    `* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersJim Lesurf
||  | |     `* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersPhil Allison
||  | |      `- Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersJim Lesurf
||  | `* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersDon Pearce
||  |  +* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersPhil Allison
||  |  |`- Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersDon Pearce
||  |  +* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersTrevor Wilson
||  |  |`* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersJim Lesurf
||  |  | `* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersTrevor Wilson
||  |  |  `* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersDave Plowman (News)
||  |  |   `* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersJim Lesurf
||  |  |    +- Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersPhil Allison
||  |  |    `* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersDave Plowman (News)
||  |  |     `* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersJim Lesurf
||  |  |      `* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersTrevor Wilson
||  |  |       +* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersPhil Allison
||  |  |       |`* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersTrevor Wilson
||  |  |       | `* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersPhil Allison
||  |  |       |  `* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersTrevor Wilson
||  |  |       |   `* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersPhil Allison
||  |  |       |    `- Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersTrevor Wilson
||  |  |       `* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersJim Lesurf
||  |  |        `- Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersPhil Allison
||  |  `* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersJim Lesurf
||  |   `- Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersPhil Allison
||  `* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakerstony sayer
||   +* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersTrevor Wilson
||   |`- Re: Two-core mains cable for speakerstony sayer
||   `* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersWoody
||    `* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakerstony sayer
||     `* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersDave Plowman (News)
||      `* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakerstony sayer
||       `* Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersDave Plowman (News)
||        `- Re: Two-core mains cable for speakerstony sayer
|`- Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersPhil Allison
+- Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersDave Plowman (News)
`- Re: Two-core mains cable for speakersBrian Gaff \(Sofa\)

Pages:1234
Re: Two-core mains cable for speakers

<j5jbg3F5n8gU1@mid.individual.net>

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From: tre...@rageaudio.com.au (Trevor Wilson)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.audio
Subject: Re: Two-core mains cable for speakers
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 10:10:57 +1100
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In-Reply-To: <st0ahb$6ld$1@dont-email.me>
 by: Trevor Wilson - Fri, 28 Jan 2022 23:10 UTC

On 28/01/2022 7:46 pm, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
> Also some amps do sound more different hand others over different cables,
> and I strongly suspect this is the reason posh cables can sound different to
> normal twin.

**The issue of cables has almost nothing to do with the source
(amplifier). It has EVERYTHING to do with the load (speakers).

> Also although the advice is to use the same length wire for left and right,
> that only seems to matter in rare circumstances and often the extra length
> in one, if coiled up sounds worse than the uneven lengths do.
>
> The effects can be very subtle of cours, and seem to affect the rise times
> of the top ends. I would have thought any modern amp would by now be almost
> inert from these effects.

**Again: Nothing to do with amplifiers (unless it is a Naim). Everything
to do with the speakers.

> I'm certainly using nothing more interesting than two core cable as you
> might find on a good quality table lamp, oh and beware speaker switch boxes,
> most are crap. Brian

**Provided your cable run is short-ish and your speaker load is benign,
then you will likely not have a problem. Long cable runs and/or ESLs are
a different matter entirely.

Re: Two-core mains cable for speakers

<1933605c-12e8-428b-9d40-ff56e18eed7fn@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Two-core mains cable for speakers
From: palliso...@gmail.com (Phil Allison)
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 by: Phil Allison - Sat, 29 Jan 2022 01:00 UTC

Trevor Wilson wrote:
====================
>
> **Provided your cable run is short-ish and your speaker load is benign,
> then you will likely not have a problem. Long cable runs and/or ESLs are
> a different matter entirely.
>

** There is no such issue with the Quad ESL63 and subsequent relatives.
The impedance stays above 4 ohms at all audible frequencies.

BTW

The AR11 3-way speaker has a horrible impedance dip to 2 ohms around 5kHz.
Two friends of mine owned pairs of them in the 70s and 80s.

Heavy gauge speaker cables made a very audible difference.

....... Phil

Re: Two-core mains cable for speakers

<j5jq53F8a4rU1@mid.individual.net>

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From: tre...@rageaudio.com.au (Trevor Wilson)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.audio
Subject: Re: Two-core mains cable for speakers
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 14:21:04 +1100
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 by: Trevor Wilson - Sat, 29 Jan 2022 03:21 UTC

On 29/01/2022 12:00 pm, Phil Allison wrote:
> Trevor Wilson wrote:
> ====================
>>
>> **Provided your cable run is short-ish and your speaker load is benign,
>> then you will likely not have a problem. Long cable runs and/or ESLs are
>> a different matter entirely.
>>
>
> ** There is no such issue with the Quad ESL63 and subsequent relatives.
> The impedance stays above 4 ohms at all audible frequencies.
>
> BTW
>
> The AR11 3-way speaker has a horrible impedance dip to 2 ohms around 5kHz.
> Two friends of mine owned pairs of them in the 70s and 80s.
>
> Heavy gauge speaker cables made a very audible difference.
>
>
> ...... Phil

**Indeed. I know the 10pi (Almost identical to the 11) very well. When I
was at Marantz, a customer brought in a 2325 for repair, claiming that
it didn't go very loud and started to distort at low levels. I tested
the amp, according to the service manual, where it measured something
like 180 Watts @ 8 Ohms (rated power - 125 Watts) and around 240 Watts @
4 Ohms. Continuous figures. Distortion was well below 0.1% at any level
below clipping. Marantz never specified their products into loads lower
than 4 Ohms in those days, so I never tested them in that way.
Discussing the matter with the customer, I requested that he bring one
of his speakers in for evaluation. Although I didn't run an impedance
test on the speakers, I noted that the amplifier could not exceed around
25 Volts p-p when playing music. The distortion was easily visible on my
'scope. I determined that the current limiting was acting rather
aggressively to protect the amplifier.

I asked the customer if he was willing to take a risk. He agreed, so I
modified the current limiters to cope with his speakers. AFAIK, the amp
survived.

Here, again, are two speakers I measured a few years back (one is an ESL):

http://rageaudio.com.au/index.php?p=1_12

Re: Two-core mains cable for speakers

<a7fdabaa-8d2f-4676-8c70-c17c0d7950d5n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Two-core mains cable for speakers
From: palliso...@gmail.com (Phil Allison)
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 by: Phil Allison - Sat, 29 Jan 2022 04:06 UTC

Trevor Wilson wrote:
==================
>
> > The AR11 3-way speaker has a horrible impedance dip to 2 ohms around 5kHz.
> > Two friends of mine owned pairs of them in the 70s and 80s.
> >
> > Heavy gauge speaker cables made a very audible difference.
> >
>

> **Indeed. I know the 10pi (Almost identical to the 11) very well.

** Not identical, but the drivers are similar.
All nominal 4 ohm types.

Here is the schem:

https://community.classicspeakerpages.net/topic/9381-ar-10pi-crossover-schematic-from-ar-original-drawing-sheet/

An auto-transformer *step up* on the woofer ??
The AR11 is tame by comparison.

This link has graphs for both models.

https://community.classicspeakerpages.net/topic/1408-ar-11-woofer-200003-measurement-refoam-repair/

...... Phil

Re: Two-core mains cable for speakers

<j5jvnqF97u7U1@mid.individual.net>

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From: tre...@rageaudio.com.au (Trevor Wilson)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.audio
Subject: Re: Two-core mains cable for speakers
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 15:56:23 +1100
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In-Reply-To: <a7fdabaa-8d2f-4676-8c70-c17c0d7950d5n@googlegroups.com>
 by: Trevor Wilson - Sat, 29 Jan 2022 04:56 UTC

On 29/01/2022 3:06 pm, Phil Allison wrote:
> Trevor Wilson wrote:
> ==================
>>
>>> The AR11 3-way speaker has a horrible impedance dip to 2 ohms around 5kHz.
>>> Two friends of mine owned pairs of them in the 70s and 80s.
>>>
>>> Heavy gauge speaker cables made a very audible difference.
>>>
>>
>
>> **Indeed. I know the 10pi (Almost identical to the 11) very well.
>
> ** Not identical, but the drivers are similar.
> All nominal 4 ohm types.
>
> Here is the schem:
>
> https://community.classicspeakerpages.net/topic/9381-ar-10pi-crossover-schematic-from-ar-original-drawing-sheet/
>
> An auto-transformer *step up* on the woofer ??
> The AR11 is tame by comparison.
>
> This link has graphs for both models.
>
> https://community.classicspeakerpages.net/topic/1408-ar-11-woofer-200003-measurement-refoam-repair/
>
>
> ..... Phil
>
>

**Yeah, the 10pi was diabolical, depending on the switch settings.

Same as some Infinity models I've tested, like the one I posted earlier.

Re: Two-core mains cable for speakers

<j5k0grF9bupU1@mid.individual.net>

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From: tre...@rageaudio.com.au (Trevor Wilson)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.audio
Subject: Re: Two-core mains cable for speakers
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 16:09:45 +1100
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 by: Trevor Wilson - Sat, 29 Jan 2022 05:09 UTC

On 29/01/2022 3:06 pm, Phil Allison wrote:
> Trevor Wilson wrote:
> ==================
>>
>>> The AR11 3-way speaker has a horrible impedance dip to 2 ohms around 5kHz.
>>> Two friends of mine owned pairs of them in the 70s and 80s.
>>>
>>> Heavy gauge speaker cables made a very audible difference.
>>>
>>
>
>> **Indeed. I know the 10pi (Almost identical to the 11) very well.
>
> ** Not identical, but the drivers are similar.
> All nominal 4 ohm types.
>
> Here is the schem:
>
> https://community.classicspeakerpages.net/topic/9381-ar-10pi-crossover-schematic-from-ar-original-drawing-sheet/
>
> An auto-transformer *step up* on the woofer ??
> The AR11 is tame by comparison.
>
> This link has graphs for both models.
>
> https://community.classicspeakerpages.net/topic/1408-ar-11-woofer-200003-measurement-refoam-repair/
>
>
> ..... Phil
>
>

**The second time I encountered a pathologically horrible speaker load
was when the importer of Infinity speakers (Miranda Hi Fi) ask me to
consult on a problem he was experiencing with damaged power amps and the
Infinity 4.5 speaker system. I performed some rudimentary checks and
what I found horrified me. Here is the schematic:

https://elektrotanya.com/infinity_rs-4.5_100w_channel_speaker_system_sm.pdf/download.html

I found an impedance dip to below 1 Ohm in the bass region. A deeply
flawed design.

And let's not forget this atrocity:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/wilson-watt-loudspeaker-measurements

Sheer incompetence. Typical of Wilson (no relation).

Re: Two-core mains cable for speakers

<5f054f3d-dda0-4c6e-a9ae-48e4ebf3bff6n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Two-core mains cable for speakers
From: palliso...@gmail.com (Phil Allison)
Injection-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 05:10:02 +0000
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 by: Phil Allison - Sat, 29 Jan 2022 05:10 UTC

Trevor Wilson wrote:
===============
>>
> >> **Indeed. I know the 10pi (Almost identical to the 11) very well.
> >
> > ** Not identical, but the drivers are similar.
> > All nominal 4 ohm types.
> >
> > Here is the schem:
> >
> > https://community.classicspeakerpages.net/topic/9381-ar-10pi-crossover-schematic-from-ar-original-drawing-sheet/
> >
> > An auto-transformer *step up* on the woofer ??
> > The AR11 is tame by comparison.
> >
> > This link has graphs for both models.
> >
> > https://community.classicspeakerpages.net/topic/1408-ar-11-woofer-200003-measurement-refoam-repair/
> >
> >
> **Yeah, the 10pi was diabolical, depending on the switch settings.
>

** That input auto - tranny is a BIG worry too !!.

At some combination of frequency and level, the core will saturate hard.
The result is gross distortion and massive overload to any amp being used.
Essentially, a 2500uF bi-pol electro *shorting* the output at low frequencies.

> Same as some Infinity models I've tested, like the one I posted earlier.

** I know, you have been trotting out that same curve for a FAULTY Kappa 9 for decades.

....... Phil

Re: Two-core mains cable for speakers

<j5k0ltF9bupU2@mid.individual.net>

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From: tre...@rageaudio.com.au (Trevor Wilson)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.audio
Subject: Re: Two-core mains cable for speakers
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 16:12:30 +1100
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 by: Trevor Wilson - Sat, 29 Jan 2022 05:12 UTC

On 29/01/2022 4:10 pm, Phil Allison wrote:
> Trevor Wilson wrote:
> ===============
>>>
>>>> **Indeed. I know the 10pi (Almost identical to the 11) very well.
>>>
>>> ** Not identical, but the drivers are similar.
>>> All nominal 4 ohm types.
>>>
>>> Here is the schem:
>>>
>>> https://community.classicspeakerpages.net/topic/9381-ar-10pi-crossover-schematic-from-ar-original-drawing-sheet/
>>>
>>> An auto-transformer *step up* on the woofer ??
>>> The AR11 is tame by comparison.
>>>
>>> This link has graphs for both models.
>>>
>>> https://community.classicspeakerpages.net/topic/1408-ar-11-woofer-200003-measurement-refoam-repair/
>>>
>>>
>> **Yeah, the 10pi was diabolical, depending on the switch settings.
>>
>
> ** That input auto - tranny is a BIG worry too !!.
>
> At some combination of frequency and level, the core will saturate hard.
> The result is gross distortion and massive overload to any amp being used.
> Essentially, a 2500uF bi-pol electro *shorting* the output at low frequencies.
>
>> Same as some Infinity models I've tested, like the one I posted earlier.
>
> ** I know, you have been trotting out that same curve for a FAULTY Kappa 9 for decades.
>

**It was not faulty. It was a faulty design. Both speakers tested the
same and all crossover components were fine. Infinity have form for this
kind of nonsense. See my comment about the RS4.5.

Re: Two-core mains cable for speakers

<3a5d6bc0-849c-4258-96e0-92dec8213141n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Two-core mains cable for speakers
From: palliso...@gmail.com (Phil Allison)
Injection-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 06:21:39 +0000
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 by: Phil Allison - Sat, 29 Jan 2022 06:21 UTC

Trevor Wilson wrote:
===============
> >>>
> >> **Yeah, the 10pi was diabolical, depending on the switch settings.
> >
> > ** That input auto - tranny is a BIG worry too !!.
> >
> > At some combination of frequency and level, the core will saturate hard.
> > The result is gross distortion and massive overload to any amp being used.
> > Essentially, a 2500uF bi-pol electro *shorting* the output at low frequencies.
> >
> >> Same as some Infinity models I've tested, like the one I posted earlier.
> >
> > ** I know, you have been trotting out that same curve for a FAULTY Kappa 9 for decades.
> >
> **It was not faulty. It was a faulty design.
>

** The designer had a giant brain fart - right ?

> Both speakers tested the
> same and all crossover components were fine.

** Faulty designs and batches are like that...

> Infinity have form for this kind of nonsense.

** Hi-fi speaker design "heads" are a weird mob.
Part artist, rest bullshit artist.

Dare I mention old Anwar ....

Point being that amp makers are NOT obliged to cater to their sometimes bizarre ideas.

....... Phil

Re: Two-core mains cable for speakers

<j5k5qaFaackU1@mid.individual.net>

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From: tre...@rageaudio.com.au (Trevor Wilson)
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Subject: Re: Two-core mains cable for speakers
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 17:40:07 +1100
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 by: Trevor Wilson - Sat, 29 Jan 2022 06:40 UTC

On 29/01/2022 5:21 pm, Phil Allison wrote:
> Trevor Wilson wrote:
> ===============
>>>>>
>>>> **Yeah, the 10pi was diabolical, depending on the switch settings.
>>>
>>> ** That input auto - tranny is a BIG worry too !!.
>>>
>>> At some combination of frequency and level, the core will saturate hard.
>>> The result is gross distortion and massive overload to any amp being used.
>>> Essentially, a 2500uF bi-pol electro *shorting* the output at low frequencies.
>>>
>>>> Same as some Infinity models I've tested, like the one I posted earlier.
>>>
>>> ** I know, you have been trotting out that same curve for a FAULTY Kappa 9 for decades.
>>>
>> **It was not faulty. It was a faulty design.
>>
>
> ** The designer had a giant brain fart - right ?

**Highly likely. For many years Infinity decided to use the 'Watkins'
system for their bass drivers. It was a bizarre system (see the RS4.5
schematic) that placed monstrous demands on amplifiers. I've never
regarded Arnie Nudell as a particularly talented designer, rather one
who selected what he considered to be the best parts and then cobbled
them together until they sounded right. Wilson was the same. When Nudell
left Infinity, their products suddenly became professionally designed
and their impedance curves resembled that of a properly designed speaker
system. I recall poking around inside a Wilson WAMM speaker system when
I was in Hong Kong. It employed the most weird and wonderful range of
drivers and crossover parts. Even used Tocordâ„¢ for the HF section. The
buyer of such a system, received the personal attention of David Wilson,
who ensured the system was correctly set up. Hardly surprising, given
the huge range of adjustments possible. Properly set up, the system
sounded good, but I could never get past my opinion of David Wilson as a
'fucker-arounderer'. He would fuck around with a speaker until it
sounded right (to him).

>
>> Both speakers tested the
>> same and all crossover components were fine.
>
> ** Faulty designs and batches are like that...

**Sure. I got called in on the Infinity RS4 once. Reports came in the it
was distorting at modest SPLs. I found that one of the inductors was
prematurely saturating at around 5 VRMS. I had to replace dozens of the
things with air core types. Infinity claimed that there was no fault
with the design. Of course. Idiots.

>
>> Infinity have form for this kind of nonsense.
>
> ** Hi-fi speaker design "heads" are a weird mob.
> Part artist, rest bullshit artist.

**Except for my old mate, Brad Serhan. Brilliant speaker designer. Very
humble, decent man. He never raves about his own designs. I kinda liked
Ron Cooper's Audiosound speakers too. His reference speaker was a ESL63.
That fact was reflected in the sound of his speakers.

>
> Dare I mention old Anwar ....

**Another fucking idiot. It took his death before they finally pulled
the 901 off the market. The most idiotic speaker ever made.

>
> Point being that amp makers are NOT obliged to cater to their sometimes bizarre ideas.

**Indeed. Some amp makers do though. Peter Stein is one of those.

Re: Two-core mains cable for speakers

<j5k745Fah64U1@mid.individual.net>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=1011&group=uk.rec.audio#1011

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From: tre...@rageaudio.com.au (Trevor Wilson)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.audio
Subject: Re: Two-core mains cable for speakers
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 18:02:26 +1100
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In-Reply-To: <j5k5qaFaackU1@mid.individual.net>
 by: Trevor Wilson - Sat, 29 Jan 2022 07:02 UTC

On 29/01/2022 5:40 pm, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 29/01/2022 5:21 pm, Phil Allison wrote:
>> Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>   ===============
>>>>>>
>>>>> **Yeah, the 10pi was diabolical, depending on the switch settings.
>>>>
>>>> ** That input auto - tranny is a BIG worry too !!.
>>>>
>>>> At some combination of frequency and level, the core will saturate
>>>> hard.
>>>> The result is gross distortion and massive overload to any amp being
>>>> used.
>>>> Essentially, a 2500uF bi-pol electro *shorting* the output at low
>>>> frequencies.
>>>>
>>>>> Same as some Infinity models I've tested, like the one I posted
>>>>> earlier.
>>>>
>>>> ** I know, you have been trotting out that same curve for a FAULTY
>>>> Kappa 9 for decades.
>>>>
>>> **It was not faulty. It was a faulty design.
>>>
>>
>> **  The designer had a giant brain fart  -  right ?
>
> **Highly likely. For many years Infinity decided to use the 'Watkins'
> system for their bass drivers. It was a bizarre system (see the RS4.5
> schematic) that placed monstrous demands on amplifiers. I've never
> regarded Arnie Nudell as a particularly talented designer, rather one
> who selected what he considered to be the best parts and then cobbled
> them together until they sounded right. Wilson was the same. When Nudell
> left Infinity, their products suddenly became professionally designed
> and their impedance curves resembled that of a properly designed speaker
> system. I recall poking around inside a Wilson WAMM speaker system when
> I was in Hong Kong. It employed the most weird and wonderful range of
> drivers and crossover parts. Even used Tocordâ„¢ for the HF section. The
> buyer of such a system, received the personal attention of David Wilson,
> who ensured the system was correctly set up. Hardly surprising, given
> the huge range of adjustments possible. Properly set up, the system
> sounded good, but I could never get past my opinion of David Wilson as a
> 'fucker-arounderer'. He would fuck around with a speaker until it
> sounded right (to him).

**This is the original WAMM, i heard in Hong Kong:

https://www.wilsonaudio.com/products/wamm/wamm-series-1

Yes, you spotted 2 X KEF B139 bass drivers as the 'mid-bass' module. The
actual bass diver was an 18" unit in a coffin sized enclosure. The mids
(Visonic David speakers) could be moved fore and aft.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/wilson-audio-modular-monitor-wamm-loudpeaker-system

And yes, you guessed it: David Wilson was a religious nutter. Big time.
A con-man.

Re: Two-core mains cable for speakers

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Subject: Re: Two-core mains cable for speakers
From: palliso...@gmail.com (Phil Allison)
Injection-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 07:34:25 +0000
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 by: Phil Allison - Sat, 29 Jan 2022 07:34 UTC

Trevor Wilson wrote:
===============
>
> >> Infinity have form for this kind of nonsense.
> >
> > ** Hi-fi speaker design "heads" are a weird mob.
>>
> > Part artist, rest bullshit artist.

> **Except for my old mate, Brad Serhan. Brilliant speaker designer. Very
> humble, decent man. He never raves about his own designs.

** What designs is he responsible for?

> I kinda liked Ron Cooper's Audiosound speakers too.

** Rod was a real engineer - worked for Goodmans in the UK once.
First met him at his home in Dee Why in the early 70s.
Tagged along with a mate to audition one of his cheaper models.
The mate bought them and loved the sound.

FYI
At that time Rod had a stunning, young blond wife and two small kids.
He must have been almost twice her age.

> His reference speaker was a ESL63.

** Only possible in the 80s, but he spoke of his ESL57s as references to me.
In 1975, I managed to pick up a used pair.

> > Dare I mention old Anwar ....
>
> **Another fucking idiot.

** Con man mostly, knew where his bread was buttered.

> It took his death before they finally pulled
> the 901 off the market. The most idiotic speaker ever made.

** Had pretty much every flaw possible to do with a home speaker, in one box.
Only " Bozos" liked them.

The BOSE 1800 amp was a POS too, I wound up repairing dozens of them for a PA hire business.

> > Point being that amp makers are NOT obliged to cater to their sometimes bizarre ideas.
> **Indeed. Some amp makers do though. Peter Stein is one of those.

** Glutton for punishment...

...... Phil

Re: Two-core mains cable for speakers

<j5kek3FbrguU1@mid.individual.net>

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From: tre...@rageaudio.com.au (Trevor Wilson)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.audio
Subject: Re: Two-core mains cable for speakers
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 20:10:24 +1100
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 by: Trevor Wilson - Sat, 29 Jan 2022 09:10 UTC

On 29/01/2022 6:34 pm, Phil Allison wrote:
> Trevor Wilson wrote:
> ===============
>>
>>>> Infinity have form for this kind of nonsense.
>>>
>>> ** Hi-fi speaker design "heads" are a weird mob.
>>>
>>> Part artist, rest bullshit artist.
>
>> **Except for my old mate, Brad Serhan. Brilliant speaker designer. Very
>> humble, decent man. He never raves about his own designs.
>
> ** What designs is he responsible for?

**The original Orpheus speakers. His current project is:

https://www.serhanswift.com/

I have yet to hear them. I know they will sound wonderful.

>
>> I kinda liked Ron Cooper's Audiosound speakers too.
>
> ** Rod was a real engineer - worked for Goodmans in the UK once.
> First met him at his home in Dee Why in the early 70s.
> Tagged along with a mate to audition one of his cheaper models.
> The mate bought them and loved the sound.
>
> FYI
> At that time Rod had a stunning, young blond wife and two small kids.
> He must have been almost twice her age.

**Nice.

>
>
>> His reference speaker was a ESL63.
>
> ** Only possible in the 80s, but he spoke of his ESL57s as references to me.
> In 1975, I managed to pick up a used pair.

**I visited his factory sometime around 1984. He pointed to an ESL63,
when I asked about his reference.

>
>>> Dare I mention old Anwar ....
>>
>> **Another fucking idiot.
>
> ** Con man mostly, knew where his bread was buttered.
>
>> It took his death before they finally pulled
>> the 901 off the market. The most idiotic speaker ever made.
>
> ** Had pretty much every flaw possible to do with a home speaker, in one box.
> Only " Bozos" liked them.

**Yup.

>
> The BOSE 1800 amp was a POS too, I wound up repairing dozens of them for a PA hire business.

**Yup. I repaired a couple.

>
> > > Point being that amp makers are NOT obliged to cater to their sometimes bizarre ideas.
>> **Indeed. Some amp makers do though. Peter Stein is one of those.
>
> ** Glutton for punishment...

**Maybe. Still, his amps are the goto ones for people who own tough to
drive speakers.

Re: Two-core mains cable for speakers

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From: noi...@audiomisc.co.uk (Jim Lesurf)
Subject: Re: Two-core mains cable for speakers
Newsgroups: uk.rec.audio
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2022 10:48:56 +0000 (GMT)
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 by: Jim Lesurf - Fri, 28 Jan 2022 10:48 UTC

In article <4d0124a8-174a-48f9-92fa-a71b02e157d8n@googlegroups.com>, Phil
Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote:
> Jim Lesurf wrote: =============
> > In> > Speaker cables are not that hard. If they are short, use
> > whatever is
> > > handy. If they are long use something fairly thick. Losing sleep
> > > over inductance etc is utterly pointless.
> >
> > ..unless you are using some specific amplifiers I won't Naim. :-) Jim
> >

> ** I know just what JL is circuitously alluding too.

> An it's all * sour grapes* horse poo as usual.

I didn't realise Tektronix used to make scopes that showed 'sour grapes'.
Maybe they were really making fruit machines. :-)

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
biog http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Re: Two-core mains cable for speakers

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From: noi...@audiomisc.co.uk (Jim Lesurf)
Subject: Re: Two-core mains cable for speakers
Newsgroups: uk.rec.audio
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2022 10:53:19 +0000 (GMT)
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 by: Jim Lesurf - Fri, 28 Jan 2022 10:53 UTC

In article <3fe91459-f8ff-4382-8e27-30521e746090n@googlegroups.com>, Phil
Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote:

> Naim and Phase Linear amps notoriously reacted to high capacitance
> cables like " Tocord" ( 5nF /m) by oscillating in the MHz range. But
> the total C per run needed to be at least 20nF, which is not possible
> with RF co-ax.
>
> Fix #1. Add a coil of enameled copper with say 25 turns and 1cm dia to
> the hot speaker output.

That's the key. Because some (cough) designs omit this without being able
to ensure stability.

> Fix #2. Add a zobel to the speaker end using 8ohms and 47nF cap in
> series.

Or to do a better job, ensure a Zobel between the amp output and the added
inductor. Like most designs that are stable.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
biog http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Re: Two-core mains cable for speakers

<59b1d55e91noise@audiomisc.co.uk>

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From: noi...@audiomisc.co.uk (Jim Lesurf)
Subject: Re: Two-core mains cable for speakers
Newsgroups: uk.rec.audio
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2022 10:59:59 +0000 (GMT)
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 by: Jim Lesurf - Fri, 28 Jan 2022 10:59 UTC

In article <61f3b11d.807843@news.eternal-september.org>, Don Pearce
<spam@spam.com> wrote:
> So at audio frequencies, there is probably no such thing as a capacitive
> cable - the cable impedance is always going to be well above that of the
> speaker and as a result inductive. At ultrasonic frequencies the
> inductance of the tweeter becomes an issue and as the speaker impedance
> rises, the capacitive term of the cable dominates and an unstable
> amplifier will oscillate.

These detailed results may help anyone interested.

http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/HFN/Cables2/OhmAndAway.html
http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/HFN/Cables3/TakeTheLead.html

The problem is that people will choose an unpredictably wide range of cable
types, lengths, and speaker loadings. Hence if you fail to ensure an amp
has a suitable[1] Zobel+Thiel network before its output terminal you risk
RF oscillations in some cases. This follows from the maths/physics, so
isn't really a point to dispute.

[1] For the amp design being used. In essence you're ensuring that no
then-presented output loading will meet the Barkhausen requirement for
oscillation to occur.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
biog http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Re: Two-core mains cable for speakers

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Subject: Re: Two-core mains cable for speakers
From: palliso...@gmail.com (Phil Allison)
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 by: Phil Allison - Sat, 29 Jan 2022 12:58 UTC

Jim Lesurf bullshitted again:
========================
..
>
> http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/HFN/Cables2/OhmAndAway.html
> http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/HFN/Cables3/TakeTheLead.html

** Complete crap.

>
> The problem is that people will choose an unpredictably wide range of cable
> types, lengths, and speaker loadings. Hence if you fail to ensure an amp
> has a suitable[1] Zobel+Thiel network before its output terminal you risk
> RF oscillations in some cases.

** Very, very FUCKING rare ones --- you lying turd.

> This follows from the maths/physics,

** As if a * know nothing prick * like you has a fucking cue or gives single shit.

Wot a vile pommy PIG you are, as always.

..... Phil

Re: Two-core mains cable for speakers

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Subject: Re: Two-core mains cable for speakers
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 by: Phil Allison - Sat, 29 Jan 2022 13:08 UTC

Trevor Wilson wrote:
===============
>
> > > > Point being that amp makers are NOT obliged to cater to their sometimes bizarre ideas.
> >> **Indeed. Some amp makers do though. Peter Stein is one of those.
> >
> > ** Glutton for punishment...
>
> **Maybe. Still, his amps are the goto ones for people who own tough to
> drive speakers.
>

** Really ?

The ESL57 is often said to be " tough to drive " .

There is no ME model that is safe to use with it.
Either the ME amp will wreck it or it will wreck the ME.

Go ahead - prove me wrong .

........ Phil

Re: Two-core mains cable for speakers

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 by: Trevor Wilson - Sat, 29 Jan 2022 19:12 UTC

On 30/01/2022 12:08 am, Phil Allison wrote:
> Trevor Wilson wrote:
> ===============
>>
>>>>> Point being that amp makers are NOT obliged to cater to their sometimes bizarre ideas.
>>>> **Indeed. Some amp makers do though. Peter Stein is one of those.
>>>
>>> ** Glutton for punishment...
>>
>> **Maybe. Still, his amps are the goto ones for people who own tough to
>> drive speakers.
>>
>
> ** Really ?
>
> The ESL57 is often said to be " tough to drive " .
>
> There is no ME model that is safe to use with it.
> Either the ME amp will wreck it or it will wreck the ME.

**It won't hurt the ME. Most amps will damage ESL57 speakers, due to
their limited Voltage capacity.

>
> Go ahead - prove me wrong .

**The smallest ME amp could deliver around 70 Volts p-p @ around 40 Amps
peak current. Although the very earliest ME amps were not fitted with
current limiting circuits, that soon changed, after operating one amp
into the Infinity RS4.5 speakers. So, I assume that even the smallest ME
amp could cause damage to an ESL57, if used improperly. Yes, I am aware
of the precipitous dip at very low frequencies. Such frequencies are
very rare on digital recordings. I do have one client operating a pair
of stacked Quads (ESL57s) with an ME850. The sound is wonderful. He has
never experienced any issues that I am aware of. Those stacked Quads are
capable of far more than the sum of their parts. I've heard them a few
times, in different systems and they never fail to impress.

Frankly, the model that concerned me the most was the ESL63. I sold a
few ME850 amps that were to be used with that Quad speaker. Knowing that
it employed a crowbar protection system, I was concerned about damage to
the Quad protection system and then, after it was destroyed, then the
speaker. The ME850 was capable of around 90 Volts p-p and 70 Amps of
CONTINUOUS current (or until the mains fuse opened). The power
transformer was rated at 2.5kVA. I issued clear warnings to any
purchaser who used that amp with the ESL63 that there was potential for
damage, if used improperly. I never had a report back that anyone had
any problems. I am still in touch with a couple of owners and they are
still enjoying their Quads and ME. I suspect that Quad owners are not
headbangers, so my concerns were probably unwarranted.

Re: Two-core mains cable for speakers

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Subject: Re: Two-core mains cable for speakers
From: palliso...@gmail.com (Phil Allison)
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 by: Phil Allison - Sun, 30 Jan 2022 00:08 UTC

Trevor Wilson wrote:
=================
>> > >>
> >> **Maybe. Still, his amps are the goto ones for people who own tough to
> >> drive speakers.
> >
> > ** Really ?
> >
> > The ESL57 is often said to be " tough to drive " .
> >
> > There is no ME model that is safe to use with it.
> > Either the ME amp will wreck it or it will wreck the ME.

======================================
> **It won't hurt the ME.

** Not true.

> Most amps will damage ESL57 speakers, due to
> their limited Voltage capacity.

** Ridiculous and irrelevant claim.

ESL57s are a 15 watt /16ohm rated speakers - so you NEVER use big amps.

> > Go ahead - prove me wrong.

> **The smallest ME amp could deliver around 70 Volts p-p

** So 35V peak ? ESL57s can stand that.

> Yes, I am aware
> of the precipitous dip at very low frequencies.

** Much worse is core saturation of the input tranny.
THAT is the SS amp killer.
That happens *within* the audio band.
===============================

> Such frequencies are very rare on digital recordings.

** Nonsense.

> I do have one client operating a pair
> of stacked Quads (ESL57s) with an ME850. The sound is wonderful. He has
> never experienced any issues that I am aware of.

** Not interested in fairy stories.

The point is what can *predictably happen* within the realm of home use.
Low frequencies and sub sonic transients do occur, for a host of reasons.
Quad SS amps all have adequate *fast* current limiting and sub sonic filters built in.
303, 405, 306 etc.

Your crazy MEs are DC coupled to zero Hz !!

....... Phil

Re: Two-core mains cable for speakers

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From: tre...@rageaudio.com.au (Trevor Wilson)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.audio
Subject: Re: Two-core mains cable for speakers
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2022 15:52:30 +1100
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In-Reply-To: <5d1c030a-e1c4-4b83-aeba-86f2ae19b342n@googlegroups.com>
 by: Trevor Wilson - Sun, 30 Jan 2022 04:52 UTC

On 30/01/2022 11:08 am, Phil Allison wrote:
> Trevor Wilson wrote:
> =================
>>>>>>
>>>> **Maybe. Still, his amps are the goto ones for people who own tough to
>>>> drive speakers.
>>>
>>> ** Really ?
>>>
>>> The ESL57 is often said to be " tough to drive " .
>>>
>>> There is no ME model that is safe to use with it.
>>> Either the ME amp will wreck it or it will wreck the ME.
>
> ======================================
>> **It won't hurt the ME.
>
> ** Not true.

**How will it hurt an ME?

>
>> Most amps will damage ESL57 speakers, due to
>> their limited Voltage capacity.
>
> ** Ridiculous and irrelevant claim.
>
> ESL57s are a 15 watt /16ohm rated speakers - so you NEVER use big amps.
>
>>> Go ahead - prove me wrong.
>
>> **The smallest ME amp could deliver around 70 Volts p-p
>
> ** So 35V peak ? ESL57s can stand that.

**OK. So, no problems then.

>
>> Yes, I am aware
>> of the precipitous dip at very low frequencies.
>
> ** Much worse is core saturation of the input tranny.
> THAT is the SS amp killer.
> That happens *within* the audio band.
> ===============================
>
>> Such frequencies are very rare on digital recordings.
>
> ** Nonsense.
>
>> I do have one client operating a pair
>> of stacked Quads (ESL57s) with an ME850. The sound is wonderful. He has
>> never experienced any issues that I am aware of.
>
> ** Not interested in fairy stories.
>
> The point is what can *predictably happen* within the realm of home use.
> Low frequencies and sub sonic transients do occur, for a host of reasons.
>
> Quad SS amps all have adequate *fast* current limiting and sub sonic filters built in.
> 303, 405, 306 etc.
>
> Your crazy MEs are DC coupled to zero Hz !!

**Certainly are. And any non-musical signal that appears at the output
causes the amp to shut down. 5Hz @ around 5 VRMS will shut it down. DC
at a Volt or so will do the same. !0Hz at around 10VRMS will also cause
the amp to shut down (to protect the speakers). As will excessive HF
information. Current limiting has been standard on all ME amps since 1978.

Re: Two-core mains cable for speakers

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From: noi...@audiomisc.co.uk (Jim Lesurf)
Subject: Re: Two-core mains cable for speakers
Newsgroups: uk.rec.audio
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 10:34:06 +0000 (GMT)
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 by: Jim Lesurf - Sat, 29 Jan 2022 10:34 UTC

In article <1933605c-12e8-428b-9d40-ff56e18eed7fn@googlegroups.com>, Phil
Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote:
> Trevor Wilson wrote: ====================
> >
> > **Provided your cable run is short-ish and your speaker load is
> > benign, then you will likely not have a problem. Long cable runs
> > and/or ESLs are a different matter entirely.
> >

> ** There is no such issue with the Quad ESL63 and subsequent relatives.
> The impedance stays above 4 ohms at all audible frequencies.

However oscillation problems can arise at frequencies well above 20kHz if
the amp doesn't have a satisfactory stability margin at the relevant
frequencies where it still has gain.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
biog http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Re: Two-core mains cable for speakers

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From: noi...@audiomisc.co.uk (Jim Lesurf)
Subject: Re: Two-core mains cable for speakers
Newsgroups: uk.rec.audio
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 10:30:08 +0000 (GMT)
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 by: Jim Lesurf - Sat, 29 Jan 2022 10:30 UTC

In article <j5jb80F5ls3U1@mid.individual.net>, Trevor Wilson
<trevor@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:

> **Not really. I posit that there are two possibilities:

> 1) Naim amplifiers are so utterly incompetently designed, that the
> manufacturer refused to admit it and sold speaker cables that would
> solve the problem, rather than re-designing the product. 2) Naim,
> cynically, designed their amplifiers so that they must be used with
> their own brand of speaker cable, thus improving their bottom line.

If you are old enough to recall the time when Lord Pinkerton and Arnie were
in the ura zoo then you'll recall that the most plausible reason then was
that JV simply 'experimented' to get what he felt 'sounded good'. Based
initially on early amp circuits issued by transistor manufacturers, etc.
The amp he 'developed' and sold was based on a data sheet example which
lacked an output network. So, having nae clue about the issue, this got
made and sold because it 'worked for him'.

Later on, I and others found it hooted at RF if you weren't giving it a
'nice' load. The brown stuff hit the rotating object when dealers found
that flogging fancy speaker cables was a license to print money. In
particular some of the cables with a nominal impedance nearer to 8 Ohms.
i.e. booger all inductance but bagloads of capaciitance.

The 'solution' for the amp makers in question was to promote a given length
of their own cable that helped dodge the bullet. Thus enabling them not to
fess up that the amp design lacked a suitable stability margin.

RCA datasheet IIRC. Pinky sent me a copy a few decades ago. In ye early
days some designers new to transistors (which were poorer then than now)
didn't realise this trap was lurking.

I assume more recent designs are better in this respect, but regardless,
some makers still promote special cables. If nothing else, it's another
source of income and marketing hype. :-)

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
biog http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Re: Two-core mains cable for speakers

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Subject: Re: Two-core mains cable for speakers
From: palliso...@gmail.com (Phil Allison)
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 by: Phil Allison - Sun, 30 Jan 2022 11:05 UTC

Jim Le-shithead wrote:

===================
>
> > > **Provided your cable run is short-ish and your speaker load is
> > > benign, then you will likely not have a problem. Long cable runs
> > > and/or ESLs are a different matter entirely.
> > >
>
> > ** There is no such issue with the Quad ESL63 and subsequent relatives.
> > The impedance stays above 4 ohms at all audible frequencies.
>
> However oscillation problems can arise at frequencies well above 20kHz if
> the amp doesn't have a satisfactory stability margin at the relevant
> frequencies where it still has gain.

** WRONG TOPIC !!!!!

Go back to sleep - you fucking geriatric POS.

Re: Two-core mains cable for speakers

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From: tre...@rageaudio.com.au (Trevor Wilson)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.audio
Subject: Re: Two-core mains cable for speakers
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2022 06:06:14 +1100
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In-Reply-To: <59b25678d5noise@audiomisc.co.uk>
 by: Trevor Wilson - Sun, 30 Jan 2022 19:06 UTC

On 29/01/2022 9:30 pm, Jim Lesurf wrote:
> In article <j5jb80F5ls3U1@mid.individual.net>, Trevor Wilson
> <trevor@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>
>> **Not really. I posit that there are two possibilities:
>
>> 1) Naim amplifiers are so utterly incompetently designed, that the
>> manufacturer refused to admit it and sold speaker cables that would
>> solve the problem, rather than re-designing the product. 2) Naim,
>> cynically, designed their amplifiers so that they must be used with
>> their own brand of speaker cable, thus improving their bottom line.
>
> If you are old enough to recall the time when Lord Pinkerton and Arnie were
> in the ura zoo then you'll recall that the most plausible reason then was
> that JV simply 'experimented' to get what he felt 'sounded good'. Based
> initially on early amp circuits issued by transistor manufacturers, etc.
> The amp he 'developed' and sold was based on a data sheet example which
> lacked an output network. So, having nae clue about the issue, this got
> made and sold because it 'worked for him'.
>
> Later on, I and others found it hooted at RF if you weren't giving it a
> 'nice' load. The brown stuff hit the rotating object when dealers found
> that flogging fancy speaker cables was a license to print money. In
> particular some of the cables with a nominal impedance nearer to 8 Ohms.
> i.e. booger all inductance but bagloads of capaciitance.
>
> The 'solution' for the amp makers in question was to promote a given length
> of their own cable that helped dodge the bullet. Thus enabling them not to
> fess up that the amp design lacked a suitable stability margin.
>
> RCA datasheet IIRC. Pinky sent me a copy a few decades ago. In ye early
> days some designers new to transistors (which were poorer then than now)
> didn't realise this trap was lurking.
>
> I assume more recent designs are better in this respect, but regardless,
> some makers still promote special cables. If nothing else, it's another
> source of income and marketing hype. :-)
>
> Jim
>

**#1 then. Incompetent design, coupled with greed. That makes sense.
BTW: I know Arni carked it awhile back, but what happened to Stew?
Anyone know?

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