I’ve just done a brain transplant (new control board) on our dishwasher.
Of course I couldn’t resist opening the old one and it looks like two large
capacitors are bulging.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/jJGDJG39w9cghYcF8

If that’s the only thing wrong with them it seems reasonable to change them
before the second of the two dishwashers dies. (It’s a “twin-drawer”
machine).

I’m struggling a bit to find replacements that are 100V, 1000uF, 85C and no
more than 20mm high and 25mm in diameter. The originals were made by
Jamicon but I can’t seem to find them.

There’s no room for anything taller or wider.

Suggestions?

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

Tim+ <tim.downie@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I’ve just done a brain transplant (new control board) on our dishwasher.
> Of course I couldn’t resist opening the old one and it looks like two large
> capacitors are bulging.
>
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/jJGDJG39w9cghYcF8
>
> If that’s the only thing wrong with them it seems reasonable to change them
> before the second of the two dishwashers dies. (It’s a “twin-drawer”
> machine).
>
> I’m struggling a bit to find replacements that are 100V, 1000uF, 85C and no
> more than 20mm high and 25mm in diameter. The originals were made by
> Jamicon but I can’t seem to find them.
>
> There’s no room for anything taller or wider.

Rubycon have some 25x25mm snap-ins, which can be found on Mouser:
100MXC1000MEFCSN25X25
(Mouser links don't seem to work without a session tracking ID, so you'd
have to search mouser.com for the part number)

Also they have a 25x25mm from CDE:
SLP102M100C1P3

Jamicon also have a 25x25:
https://jamicon.teapo.com/upload/Capacitor/Series/LT&LF.pdf

I'm guessing a 25mm high is no good?

I'm not finding anything shorter than that, but their catalogue is hard to
search. Does the existing one have any other markings on it? I'm looking
for the series, eg LT or LF in the above. Is it wire ended or a snap-in?

How old is the machine?

Theo

On 8/7/2023 5:59 PM, Theo wrote:
> Tim+ <tim.downie@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I’ve just done a brain transplant (new control board) on our dishwasher.
>> Of course I couldn’t resist opening the old one and it looks like two large
>> capacitors are bulging.
>>
>> https://photos.app.goo.gl/jJGDJG39w9cghYcF8
>>
>> If that’s the only thing wrong with them it seems reasonable to change them
>> before the second of the two dishwashers dies. (It’s a “twin-drawer”
>> machine).
>>
>> I’m struggling a bit to find replacements that are 100V, 1000uF, 85C and no
>> more than 20mm high and 25mm in diameter. The originals were made by
>> Jamicon but I can’t seem to find them.
>>
>> There’s no room for anything taller or wider.
>
> Rubycon have some 25x25mm snap-ins, which can be found on Mouser:
> 100MXC1000MEFCSN25X25
> (Mouser links don't seem to work without a session tracking ID, so you'd
> have to search mouser.com for the part number)
>
> Also they have a 25x25mm from CDE:
> SLP102M100C1P3
>
> Jamicon also have a 25x25:
> https://jamicon.teapo.com/upload/Capacitor/Series/LT&LF.pdf
>
> I'm guessing a 25mm high is no good?
>
> I'm not finding anything shorter than that, but their catalogue is hard to
> search. Does the existing one have any other markings on it? I'm looking
> for the series, eg LT or LF in the above. Is it wire ended or a snap-in?
>
> How old is the machine?
>
> Theo

This happens all the time in electronics.

A manufacturer seems to have acquired "D sized case" capacitors,
you need to do a swap, and with the stated parameter set,
all you can find are "E sized case" electrolytic capacitors
in your catalogs. I bet every motherboard I own here, has that
situation on the bulk caps near VCore.

The only exception might be the substitution of OSCONs in place
of the commodity originals, and the parametrics (ESR,ESL) as well
as ripple current rating (4x normal) are quite different. And if
this is part of an SMPS, some slight tweaks on the analog components
next to the switching chip are required. A lot of SMPS data sheet
recommended designs, are designed with commodity ESR and ESL values
in mind.

Circuits have some tolerance to slight reductions in capacitance,
so maybe a solution would be an 800uF cap instead of a 1000uF cap.
Then look at the X7R versus whatever, and see if you can justify
your choice based on tolerance alone.

Why can't the designers leave some air-space for the next-sized cap ????
Why do they select "interference hole sizes" for the cap leads, so
it's impossible to get out, even with an expensive vacuum desoldering machine ????
I worked for one company, that provided plenty of clearance on the legs,
and they used zigzag lead forming on the pick%place, so the caps would not
fall out during the trip through the solder tunnel. Those were a pleasure to
remove. Came right out on the first try. An actual, maintainable, PCB.

Paul

Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> Tim+ <tim.downie@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I’ve just done a brain transplant (new control board) on our dishwasher.
>> Of course I couldn’t resist opening the old one and it looks like two large
>> capacitors are bulging.
>>
>> https://photos.app.goo.gl/jJGDJG39w9cghYcF8
>>
>> If that’s the only thing wrong with them it seems reasonable to change them
>> before the second of the two dishwashers dies. (It’s a “twin-drawer”
>> machine).
>>
>> I’m struggling a bit to find replacements that are 100V, 1000uF, 85C and no
>> more than 20mm high and 25mm in diameter. The originals were made by
>> Jamicon but I can’t seem to find them.
>>
>> There’s no room for anything taller or wider.
>
> Rubycon have some 25x25mm snap-ins, which can be found on Mouser:
> 100MXC1000MEFCSN25X25
> (Mouser links don't seem to work without a session tracking ID, so you'd
> have to search mouser.com for the part number)
>
> Also they have a 25x25mm from CDE:
> SLP102M100C1P3
>
> Jamicon also have a 25x25:
> https://jamicon.teapo.com/upload/Capacitor/Series/LT&LF.pdf
>
> I'm guessing a 25mm high is no good?

I don’t think so but I’ll have another look at the enclosure. It’s just
possible there might be room. I’ve tried closing the enclosure with and
extra 5mm of cardboard inside to simulate a longer capacitor and it just
closes (with probably just a little pressure on the circuit board).

>
> I'm not finding anything shorter than that, but their catalogue is hard to
> search. Does the existing one have any other markings on it?

It does. “LP” (low profile maybe?) and “735K0(MM). (Not clear whether it’s
an O or an 0).

> I'm looking
> for the series, eg LT or LF in the above.

> Is it wire ended or a snap-in?

Pass. I’m not familiar with the differences. Could I tell without
desoldering it first? The legs are 10mm apart.

> How old is the machine?

Hmm, 17 years-ish?

It might seem a lot of trouble for such an old machine but it was an
expensive machine in its day.

https://www.appliancecity.co.uk/dishwashers/dishdrawers/fisher-paykel-dd60ddfhx9-designer-series-twin-dishdrawer/?

It still works well and has been otherwise utterly reliable. It’s also
beautifully designed for easy service and repair (apart from these
capacitors!) You can access the vast majority of the components either from
inside the machine drawer or by removing the front panel, neither of which
require the use of tools.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
> On 8/7/2023 5:59 PM, Theo wrote:
>> Tim+ <tim.downie@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I’ve just done a brain transplant (new control board) on our dishwasher.
>>> Of course I couldn’t resist opening the old one and it looks like two large
>>> capacitors are bulging.
>>>
>>> https://photos.app.goo.gl/jJGDJG39w9cghYcF8
>>>
>>> If that’s the only thing wrong with them it seems reasonable to change them
>>> before the second of the two dishwashers dies. (It’s a “twin-drawer”
>>> machine).
>>>
>>> I’m struggling a bit to find replacements that are 100V, 1000uF, 85C and no
>>> more than 20mm high and 25mm in diameter. The originals were made by
>>> Jamicon but I can’t seem to find them.
>>>
>>> There’s no room for anything taller or wider.
>>
>> Rubycon have some 25x25mm snap-ins, which can be found on Mouser:
>> 100MXC1000MEFCSN25X25
>> (Mouser links don't seem to work without a session tracking ID, so you'd
>> have to search mouser.com for the part number)
>>
>> Also they have a 25x25mm from CDE:
>> SLP102M100C1P3
>>
>> Jamicon also have a 25x25:
>> https://jamicon.teapo.com/upload/Capacitor/Series/LT&LF.pdf
>>
>> I'm guessing a 25mm high is no good?
>>
>> I'm not finding anything shorter than that, but their catalogue is hard to
>> search. Does the existing one have any other markings on it? I'm looking
>> for the series, eg LT or LF in the above. Is it wire ended or a snap-in?
>>
>> How old is the machine?
>>
>> Theo
>
> This happens all the time in electronics.
>
> A manufacturer seems to have acquired "D sized case" capacitors,
> you need to do a swap, and with the stated parameter set,
> all you can find are "E sized case" electrolytic capacitors
> in your catalogs. I bet every motherboard I own here, has that
> situation on the bulk caps near VCore.
>
> The only exception might be the substitution of OSCONs in place
> of the commodity originals, and the parametrics (ESR,ESL) as well
> as ripple current rating (4x normal) are quite different. And if
> this is part of an SMPS, some slight tweaks on the analog components
> next to the switching chip are required. A lot of SMPS data sheet
> recommended designs, are designed with commodity ESR and ESL values
> in mind.
>
> Circuits have some tolerance to slight reductions in capacitance,
> so maybe a solution would be an 800uF cap instead of a 1000uF cap.
> Then look at the X7R versus whatever, and see if you can justify
> your choice based on tolerance alone.

I must admit that much of this is way over my head. ;-) What I have
discovered though is that in any capacitance near 1000uF, there is nothing
in a 20mm long/high package.

>
> Why can't the designers leave some air-space for the next-sized cap ????

It looks like a 25mm cap could be squeezed in (at the expense of any
overhead clearance) and with probably a bit of pressure on the PCB when the
enclosure is shut. How big an issue that is likely to be I have no idea.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

On 07/08/2023 22:08, Tim+ wrote:
>
> I’ve just done a brain transplant (new control board) on our dishwasher.
> Of course I couldn’t resist opening the old one and it looks like two large
> capacitors are bulging.
>
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/jJGDJG39w9cghYcF8
>
> If that’s the only thing wrong with them it seems reasonable to change them
> before the second of the two dishwashers dies. (It’s a “twin-drawer”
> machine).
>
> I’m struggling a bit to find replacements that are 100V, 1000uF, 85C and no
> more than 20mm high and 25mm in diameter. The originals were made by
> Jamicon but I can’t seem to find them.
>
> There’s no room for anything taller or wider.
>
> Suggestions?
>
> Tim
>
Howsabout cutting holes in the cover and adding a "power bulge" to
accommodate the replacement caps? ... or mounting them somewhere else
and running wires back to the original location?

On 08/08/2023 07:54, Tim+ wrote:

>
> I must admit that much of this is way over my head. ;-) What I have
> discovered though is that in any capacitance near 1000uF, there is nothing
> in a 20mm long/high package.

Which may indicate that it was not actually a 1000uF capacitor (or not
100V). If none of the reputable manufacturers can fit a 1000uF,100V
capacitor into a can of that size is seem unlikely that Jamicon could
have done so.

My general experience with replacing failed electrolytic capacitors is
that the originals which fail quickly have been from no-name
manufacturers and have been in cans smaller than the replacements from
Rubicon, Panasonic, Vishay etc. The replacements have always lasted
longer than the originals and always to the end life of the items.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

<nothanks@aolbin.com> wrote:
> On 07/08/2023 22:08, Tim+ wrote:
>>
>> I’ve just done a brain transplant (new control board) on our dishwasher.
>> Of course I couldn’t resist opening the old one and it looks like two large
>> capacitors are bulging.
>>
>> https://photos.app.goo.gl/jJGDJG39w9cghYcF8
>>
>> If that’s the only thing wrong with them it seems reasonable to change them
>> before the second of the two dishwashers dies. (It’s a “twin-drawer”
>> machine).
>>
>> I’m struggling a bit to find replacements that are 100V, 1000uF, 85C and no
>> more than 20mm high and 25mm in diameter. The originals were made by
>> Jamicon but I can’t seem to find them.
>>
>> There’s no room for anything taller or wider.
>>
>> Suggestions?
>>
>> Tim
>>
> Howsabout cutting holes in the cover and adding a "power bulge" to
> accommodate the replacement caps? ... or mounting them somewhere else
> and running wires back to the original location?
>

That did cross my mind but I don’t like the idea of possibly compromising
the fire resistance of the control board case (assuming it has a degree of
fire resistance of course!)

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On 08/08/2023 07:54, Tim+ wrote:
>
>>
>> I must admit that much of this is way over my head. ;-) What I have
>> discovered though is that in any capacitance near 1000uF, there is nothing
>> in a 20mm long/high package.
>
> Which may indicate that it was not actually a 1000uF capacitor (or not
> 100V). If none of the reputable manufacturers can fit a 1000uF,100V
> capacitor into a can of that size is seem unlikely that Jamicon could
> have done so.
>

That’s a distinct possibility!

Just wondering now the possibility of using 2 parallel pairs of 500uF
capacitors instead but I’m guessing they would be bigger in total volume.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

On 07/08/2023 22:08, Tim+ wrote:
> I’m struggling a bit to find replacements that are 100V, 1000uF, 85C and no
> more than 20mm high and 25mm in diameter.  The originals were made by
> Jamicon but I can’t seem to find them.

Unusual to find modern caps LARGER than what you want to replace...
usually they are smaller.

https://www.mouser.co.uk/ProductDetail/Nichicon/LKS2A102MESB?qs=Ysb%2FBSeDKl2BI6fetaiCnQ%3D%3D

is 30mm diameter

Are you sure that the data above is actually correct?

Jamicon are not a well respected brand and are known for unreliability,
according to some net data.

I think if you want to repair this you are going to have to wire in some
physically larger ones wherever there is space .

--
"When one man dies it's a tragedy. When thousands die it's statistics."

Josef Stalin

On 08/08/2023 09:29, Tim+ wrote:
> alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 08/08/2023 07:54, Tim+ wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I must admit that much of this is way over my head. ;-) What I have
>>> discovered though is that in any capacitance near 1000uF, there is nothing
>>> in a 20mm long/high package.
>>
>> Which may indicate that it was not actually a 1000uF capacitor (or not
>> 100V). If none of the reputable manufacturers can fit a 1000uF,100V
>> capacitor into a can of that size is seem unlikely that Jamicon could
>> have done so.
>>
>
> That’s a distinct possibility!

Any chance of unsoldering one lead from the "good" board and measuring
the capacitance to see if it is anywhere near 1000uF?

> Just wondering now the possibility of using 2 parallel pairs of 500uF
> capacitors instead but I’m guessing they would be bigger in total volume.

--

Jeff

Tim+ <tim.downie@gmail.com> wrote:
> Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> > Tim+ <tim.downie@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> I’ve just done a brain transplant (new control board) on our dishwasher.
> >> Of course I couldn’t resist opening the old one and it looks like two large
> >> capacitors are bulging.
> >>
> >> https://photos.app.goo.gl/jJGDJG39w9cghYcF8
> >>
> >> If that’s the only thing wrong with them it seems reasonable to change them
> >> before the second of the two dishwashers dies. (It’s a “twin-drawer”
> >> machine).
> >>
> >> I’m struggling a bit to find replacements that are 100V, 1000uF, 85C and no
> >> more than 20mm high and 25mm in diameter. The originals were made by
> >> Jamicon but I can’t seem to find them.
> >>
> >> There’s no room for anything taller or wider.
> >
> > Rubycon have some 25x25mm snap-ins, which can be found on Mouser:
> > 100MXC1000MEFCSN25X25
> > (Mouser links don't seem to work without a session tracking ID, so you'd
> > have to search mouser.com for the part number)
> >
> > Also they have a 25x25mm from CDE:
> > SLP102M100C1P3
> >
> > Jamicon also have a 25x25:
> > https://jamicon.teapo.com/upload/Capacitor/Series/LT&LF.pdf
> >
> > I'm guessing a 25mm high is no good?
>
> I don’t think so but I’ll have another look at the enclosure. It’s just
> possible there might be room. I’ve tried closing the enclosure with and
> extra 5mm of cardboard inside to simulate a longer capacitor and it just
> closes (with probably just a little pressure on the circuit board).

If it's bulging, that might take up an extra mm or so?

Would there be space if the enclosure was cut/shaved down a little? Is it
plastic or metal?

> > I'm not finding anything shorter than that, but their catalogue is hard to
> > search. Does the existing one have any other markings on it?
>
> It does. “LP” (low profile maybe?) and “735K0(MM). (Not clear whether it’s
> an O or an 0).

The only LPs they have are branded Teapo not Jamicon, and are too big:
https://jamicon.teapo.com/upload/Capacitor/Series/HX&LP.pdf

> Pass. I’m not familiar with the differences. Could I tell without
> desoldering it first? The legs are 10mm apart.

Snaps have short stubby legs stamped from metal, like the picture on that
datasheet. They don't need cutting and the tips poking up from the solder
will be uniform and flatter. Wire-ended capacitors show the end of the cut
wire, which will be a sharp peak.

> Hmm, 17 years-ish?

That sounds well into the 'capacitor plague' era, and maybe a cheap brand
like Jamicon was a bit overzealous in their published specifications? It is
possible they have more 'enthuiastically' marked their product compared with
the competition. Which might also explain why it failed.

Another thought is to study the circuit and see if you really need that
voltage or capacitance rating. eg if it can get away with a 63V cap then
you can probably find one to fit.

> It might seem a lot of trouble for such an old machine but it was an
> expensive machine in its day.
>
> https://www.appliancecity.co.uk/dishwashers/dishdrawers/fisher-paykel-dd60ddfhx9-designer-series-twin-dishdrawer/?
>
> It still works well and has been otherwise utterly reliable. It’s also
> beautifully designed for easy service and repair (apart from these
> capacitors!) You can access the vast majority of the components either from
> inside the machine drawer or by removing the front panel, neither of which
> require the use of tools.

Definitely worth keeping these things running, especially for a few pennies
of components. If you can find them!

Theo

On 07/08/2023 22:08, Tim+ wrote:
>
> I’ve just done a brain transplant (new control board) on our dishwasher.
> Of course I couldn’t resist opening the old one and it looks like two large
> capacitors are bulging.
>
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/jJGDJG39w9cghYcF8
>
> If that’s the only thing wrong with them it seems reasonable to change them
> before the second of the two dishwashers dies. (It’s a “twin-drawer”
> machine).
>
> I’m struggling a bit to find replacements that are 100V, 1000uF, 85C and no
> more than 20mm high and 25mm in diameter. The originals were made by
> Jamicon but I can’t seem to find them.
>
> There’s no room for anything taller or wider.

20mm is unusual. Not even an extra 5mm height?

RS Stock No.: 744-1262

> Suggestions?
>
> Tim

Angle grinder?

--
Cheers
Clive

On 8/8/2023 4:29 AM, Tim+ wrote:
> alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 08/08/2023 07:54, Tim+ wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I must admit that much of this is way over my head. ;-) What I have
>>> discovered though is that in any capacitance near 1000uF, there is nothing
>>> in a 20mm long/high package.
>>
>> Which may indicate that it was not actually a 1000uF capacitor (or not
>> 100V). If none of the reputable manufacturers can fit a 1000uF,100V
>> capacitor into a can of that size is seem unlikely that Jamicon could
>> have done so.
>>
>
> That’s a distinct possibility!
>
> Just wondering now the possibility of using 2 parallel pairs of 500uF
> capacitors instead but I’m guessing they would be bigger in total volume.
>
> Tim

It would be unusual, for them to leave room for you to do that.

Or they would have done it, themselves (pair of 470uF, in place of single 1000uF).

For filtering, there is the value of capacitance, but
there is also a thing called the "ripple current rating".
The circuit would work better with four 470uF, because
there would be a higher overall ripple rating. Capacitors
can have *multiple amperes* of ripple current flowing, which
can make them warm.

This is why motherboards have two banks of caps, multiple caps in each bank. Ripple in each bank.

They might have seven caps shoulder to shoulder - that's not to get 7x the capacitance,
that's to get 7x the ripple rating. If they simply wanted 7x the
capacitance, they would use a single capacitor with a 7 times higher
value printed on the sleeve.

Params:

capacitance \___ stamped on sleeve
WVDC / May list temp, but not hours at that temp. (Need specific summary family catalog for this.)
life@temp / Using Arrhenius, you can re-rate at the application temp.
Could be 2000 hours at 105C for example. Arrhenius is not the chemlab 7C value!
It is curve fitted to capacitor lab data. Making it 256000 hours at 25C. You
don't want them running at the rated temp. You want cooler air than that.
Much cooler air.

ripple current --- spec easily available (if the value is not embarrassing).

ESR \___ spec can be a PITA to get
ESL / dont know exactly why they play this game
application circuits have already taken "lax" values into account,
so it's not like it matters :-) SMPS sample designs take "shit caps" into account.

Paul

Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> Another thought is to study the circuit and see if you really need that
> voltage or capacitance rating. eg if it can get away with a 63V cap then
> you can probably find one to fit.

Is the board this one:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/404337086224
see the third picture, direct link:
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/ddcAAOSwqoZkjGd~/s-l1600.jpg

That looks like a three phase DC motor controller of some kind.

It seems like there is probably space to lay some long and thin caps, eg
18mm d x 35mm h 1000uF 100V, above the microcontroller chip at the top left.
I would try to keep them away from the transistors at the top right as they
may get hot, but the MCU area probably won't. Then wire them to the
existing cap PCB holes.

https://uk.farnell.com/panasonic/eca2ahg102/cap-1000-f-100v-20/dp/1907212
and others.

Theo

On 07/08/2023 22:08, Tim+ wrote:
>
> I’ve just done a brain transplant (new control board) on our dishwasher.
> Of course I couldn’t resist opening the old one and it looks like two large
> capacitors are bulging.
>
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/jJGDJG39w9cghYcF8
>
> If that’s the only thing wrong with them it seems reasonable to change them
> before the second of the two dishwashers dies. (It’s a “twin-drawer”
> machine).
>
> I’m struggling a bit to find replacements that are 100V, 1000uF, 85C and no
> more than 20mm high and 25mm in diameter. The originals were made by
> Jamicon but I can’t seem to find them.
>
> There’s no room for anything taller or wider.
>
> Suggestions?

I am assuming that these are radial capacitors (both connections on one
end)? If so, you can also look at the axial range (one lead out of each
end), which can be installed on end, with the "top" wire insulated and
brought down the side of the capacitor and down to the PCB.

It may not help, but it could give you a wider range to choose from.

Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 08/08/2023 09:29, Tim+ wrote:
>> alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 08/08/2023 07:54, Tim+ wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I must admit that much of this is way over my head. ;-) What I have
>>>> discovered though is that in any capacitance near 1000uF, there is nothing
>>>> in a 20mm long/high package.
>>>
>>> Which may indicate that it was not actually a 1000uF capacitor (or not
>>> 100V). If none of the reputable manufacturers can fit a 1000uF,100V
>>> capacitor into a can of that size is seem unlikely that Jamicon could
>>> have done so.
>>>
>>
>> That’s a distinct possibility!
>
> Any chance of unsoldering one lead from the "good" board and measuring
> the capacitance to see if it is anywhere near 1000uF?

If it was near 1000uF I probably wouldn’t need to replace it! ;-)

I think I will have a go at desoldering it though as the board is presently
junk unless I can replace the caps.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>> Another thought is to study the circuit and see if you really need that
>> voltage or capacitance rating. eg if it can get away with a 63V cap then
>> you can probably find one to fit.
>
> Is the board this one:
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/404337086224
> see the third picture, direct link:
> https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/ddcAAOSwqoZkjGd~/s-l1600.jpg

Yep, that’s it.

>
> That looks like a three phase DC motor controller of some kind.
>
> It seems like there is probably space to lay some long and thin caps, eg
> 18mm d x 35mm h 1000uF 100V, above the microcontroller chip at the top left.
> I would try to keep them away from the transistors at the top right as they
> may get hot, but the MCU area probably won't. Then wire them to the
> existing cap PCB holes.

>
> https://uk.farnell.com/panasonic/eca2ahg102/cap-1000-f-100v-20/dp/1907212
> and others.
>

Thanks, I hadn’t considered that.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

On 08/08/2023 12:28, Tim+ wrote:
> Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On 08/08/2023 09:29, Tim+ wrote:
>>> alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 08/08/2023 07:54, Tim+ wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I must admit that much of this is way over my head. ;-) What I have
>>>>> discovered though is that in any capacitance near 1000uF, there is nothing
>>>>> in a 20mm long/high package.
>>>>
>>>> Which may indicate that it was not actually a 1000uF capacitor (or not
>>>> 100V). If none of the reputable manufacturers can fit a 1000uF,100V
>>>> capacitor into a can of that size is seem unlikely that Jamicon could
>>>> have done so.
>>>>
>>>
>>> That’s a distinct possibility!
>>
>> Any chance of unsoldering one lead from the "good" board and measuring
>> the capacitance to see if it is anywhere near 1000uF?
>
> If it was near 1000uF I probably wouldn’t need to replace it! ;-)

I think we're at cross-purposes! You said that you thought that it might
not actually be a 1000uF capacitor. In your OP, you said you'd put in a
new control board, so I was suggesting you unsolder one of the new
(non-bulging) capacitors from that and measure it to see if a new one
was really 1000nF. If it was only, eg 470uF, one of that value could be
used to replace the bulging caps, and being only 470uF might fit.
> I think I will have a go at desoldering it though as the board is presently
> junk unless I can replace the caps.

--

Jeff

Two smaller ones across each other in the right orientation to fit?
What are they being used for?
Brian

--

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"Tim+" <tim.downie@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1818232284.713134072.877592.tim.downie-gmail.com@news.individual.net...
>
> I've just done a brain transplant (new control board) on our dishwasher.
> Of course I couldn't resist opening the old one and it looks like two
> large
> capacitors are bulging.
>
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/jJGDJG39w9cghYcF8
>
> If that's the only thing wrong with them it seems reasonable to change
> them
> before the second of the two dishwashers dies. (It's a "twin-drawer"
> machine).
>
> I'm struggling a bit to find replacements that are 100V, 1000uF, 85C and
> no
> more than 20mm high and 25mm in diameter. The originals were made by
> Jamicon but I can't seem to find them.
>
> There's no room for anything taller or wider.
>
> Suggestions?
>
> Tim
>
> --
> Please don't feed the trolls

I think you just answered you own questions. They did not want them to fall
out, could not be bothered with a zig Zag bender and they did not even
consider repair so got the ones they could get at the time and put a case to
fit on the whole lot. Is this a Bosch?

Anyway, why not fit anything that will work, and see if it fixes the problem
then worry an making the case fit later on, say by making a hole in it and
coating over the top with sealant.
I've seen this sort of thing done on new equipment, but it was some time
ago now, but I'd not expect it to be dangerous in any case as long as the
case is earthed.
Brian

--

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"Paul" <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote in message
news:uas1pm$32je5$1@dont-email.me...
> On 8/7/2023 5:59 PM, Theo wrote:
>> Tim+ <tim.downie@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I've just done a brain transplant (new control board) on our dishwasher.
>>> Of course I couldn't resist opening the old one and it looks like two
>>> large
>>> capacitors are bulging.
>>>
>>> https://photos.app.goo.gl/jJGDJG39w9cghYcF8
>>>
>>> If that's the only thing wrong with them it seems reasonable to change
>>> them
>>> before the second of the two dishwashers dies. (It's a "twin-drawer"
>>> machine).
>>>
>>> I'm struggling a bit to find replacements that are 100V, 1000uF, 85C and
>>> no
>>> more than 20mm high and 25mm in diameter. The originals were made by
>>> Jamicon but I can't seem to find them.
>>>
>>> There's no room for anything taller or wider.
>>
>> Rubycon have some 25x25mm snap-ins, which can be found on Mouser:
>> 100MXC1000MEFCSN25X25
>> (Mouser links don't seem to work without a session tracking ID, so you'd
>> have to search mouser.com for the part number)
>>
>> Also they have a 25x25mm from CDE:
>> SLP102M100C1P3
>>
>> Jamicon also have a 25x25:
>> https://jamicon.teapo.com/upload/Capacitor/Series/LT&LF.pdf
>>
>> I'm guessing a 25mm high is no good?
>>
>> I'm not finding anything shorter than that, but their catalogue is hard
>> to
>> search. Does the existing one have any other markings on it? I'm
>> looking
>> for the series, eg LT or LF in the above. Is it wire ended or a snap-in?
>>
>> How old is the machine?
>>
>> Theo
>
> This happens all the time in electronics.
>
> A manufacturer seems to have acquired "D sized case" capacitors,
> you need to do a swap, and with the stated parameter set,
> all you can find are "E sized case" electrolytic capacitors
> in your catalogs. I bet every motherboard I own here, has that
> situation on the bulk caps near VCore.
>
> The only exception might be the substitution of OSCONs in place
> of the commodity originals, and the parametrics (ESR,ESL) as well
> as ripple current rating (4x normal) are quite different. And if
> this is part of an SMPS, some slight tweaks on the analog components
> next to the switching chip are required. A lot of SMPS data sheet
> recommended designs, are designed with commodity ESR and ESL values
> in mind.
>
> Circuits have some tolerance to slight reductions in capacitance,
> so maybe a solution would be an 800uF cap instead of a 1000uF cap.
> Then look at the X7R versus whatever, and see if you can justify
> your choice based on tolerance alone.
>
> Why can't the designers leave some air-space for the next-sized cap ????
> Why do they select "interference hole sizes" for the cap leads, so
> it's impossible to get out, even with an expensive vacuum desoldering
> machine ????
> I worked for one company, that provided plenty of clearance on the legs,
> and they used zigzag lead forming on the pick%place, so the caps would not
> fall out during the trip through the solder tunnel. Those were a pleasure
> to
> remove. Came right out on the first try. An actual, maintainable, PCB.
>
> Paul

Yes used to do this a lot on old portable radios to fit stuff in the case.
Of course these one assumes are working on a higher voltage.
Brian

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"SteveW" <steve@walker-family.me.uk> wrote in message
news:uat647$3bvlp$2@dont-email.me...
> On 07/08/2023 22:08, Tim+ wrote:
>>
>> I've just done a brain transplant (new control board) on our dishwasher.
>> Of course I couldn't resist opening the old one and it looks like two
>> large
>> capacitors are bulging.
>>
>> https://photos.app.goo.gl/jJGDJG39w9cghYcF8
>>
>> If that's the only thing wrong with them it seems reasonable to change
>> them
>> before the second of the two dishwashers dies. (It's a "twin-drawer"
>> machine).
>>
>> I'm struggling a bit to find replacements that are 100V, 1000uF, 85C and
>> no
>> more than 20mm high and 25mm in diameter. The originals were made by
>> Jamicon but I can't seem to find them.
>>
>> There's no room for anything taller or wider.
>>
>> Suggestions?
>
> I am assuming that these are radial capacitors (both connections on one
> end)? If so, you can also look at the axial range (one lead out of each
> end), which can be installed on end, with the "top" wire insulated and
> brought down the side of the capacitor and down to the PCB.
>
> It may not help, but it could give you a wider range to choose from.
>

Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 08/08/2023 12:28, Tim+ wrote:
>> Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 08/08/2023 09:29, Tim+ wrote:
>>>> alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 08/08/2023 07:54, Tim+ wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I must admit that much of this is way over my head. ;-) What I have
>>>>>> discovered though is that in any capacitance near 1000uF, there is nothing
>>>>>> in a 20mm long/high package.
>>>>>
>>>>> Which may indicate that it was not actually a 1000uF capacitor (or not
>>>>> 100V). If none of the reputable manufacturers can fit a 1000uF,100V
>>>>> capacitor into a can of that size is seem unlikely that Jamicon could
>>>>> have done so.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That’s a distinct possibility!
>>>
>>> Any chance of unsoldering one lead from the "good" board and measuring
>>> the capacitance to see if it is anywhere near 1000uF?
>>
>> If it was near 1000uF I probably wouldn’t need to replace it! ;-)
>
> I think we're at cross-purposes! You said that you thought that it might
> not actually be a 1000uF capacitor.

No I didn’t. Alan suggested that. I just agreed that it was a possibility.

> In your OP, you said you'd put in a
> new control board, so I was suggesting you unsolder one of the new
> (non-bulging) capacitors from that and measure it to see if a new one
> was really 1000nF.

Seriously?? How likely do you think it is that I’m gonna unsolder a brand
new capacitor from £169 of control board to satisfy your curiosity? ;-).
I’m not *that* curious myself.

>. If it was only, eg 470uF, one of that value could be
> used to replace the bulging caps, and being only 470uF might fit.
>> I think I will have a go at desoldering it though as the board is presently
>> junk unless I can replace the caps.
>

Well I understand your plan but I think the idea of sticking a couple of
different shaped capacitors with the same quoted rating elsewhere in the
control boards box is a better one.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
> On 8/8/2023 4:29 AM, Tim+ wrote:
>> alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 08/08/2023 07:54, Tim+ wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I must admit that much of this is way over my head. ;-) What I have
>>>> discovered though is that in any capacitance near 1000uF, there is nothing
>>>> in a 20mm long/high package.
>>>
>>> Which may indicate that it was not actually a 1000uF capacitor (or not
>>> 100V). If none of the reputable manufacturers can fit a 1000uF,100V
>>> capacitor into a can of that size is seem unlikely that Jamicon could
>>> have done so.
>>>
>>
>> That’s a distinct possibility!
>>
>> Just wondering now the possibility of using 2 parallel pairs of 500uF
>> capacitors instead but I’m guessing they would be bigger in total volume.
>>
>> Tim
>
> It would be unusual, for them to leave room for you to do that.
>
> Or they would have done it, themselves (pair of 470uF, in place of single 1000uF).
>
> For filtering, there is the value of capacitance, but
> there is also a thing called the "ripple current rating".
> The circuit would work better with four 470uF, because
> there would be a higher overall ripple rating. Capacitors
> can have *multiple amperes* of ripple current flowing, which
> can make them warm.
>
> This is why motherboards have two banks of caps, multiple caps in each
> bank. Ripple in each bank.
>
> They might have seven caps shoulder to shoulder - that's not to get 7x the capacitance,
> that's to get 7x the ripple rating. If they simply wanted 7x the
> capacitance, they would use a single capacitor with a 7 times higher
> value printed on the sleeve.
>
> Params:
>
> capacitance \___ stamped on sleeve
> WVDC / May list temp, but not hours at that temp. (Need
> specific summary family catalog for this.)
> life@temp / Using Arrhenius, you can re-rate at the application temp.
> Could be 2000 hours at 105C for example. Arrhenius is
> not the chemlab 7C value!
> It is curve fitted to capacitor lab data. Making it
> 256000 hours at 25C. You
> don't want them running at the rated temp. You want
> cooler air than that.
> Much cooler air.
>
> ripple current --- spec easily available (if the value is not embarrassing).
>
> ESR \___ spec can be a PITA to get
> ESL / dont know exactly why they play this game
> application circuits have already taken "lax" values into account,
> so it's not like it matters :-) SMPS sample designs
> take "shit caps" into account.
>
> Paul
>

FWIW the old caps are reading about 830uF. Would this be enough out of spec
to stop it working?

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

On 8 Aug 2023 18:20:35 GMT
Tim+ <tim.downie@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> FWIW the old caps are reading about 830uF. Would this be enough out
> of spec to stop it working?
>

I wouldn't have thought so. Aluminium electrolytics generally have wide
tolerances, typically 20%, so they are never used where precision is
required. Many types have values which are multiples of 1, 2.2 and 4.7.

Some electrolytics leak under some circumstances, usually heat, and the
electrolyte not only has a low resistance but may dissolve copper, so
there may be consequences of them failing.

--
Joe