Wagner boss Yevgeny Prigozhin was on the passenger list of a jet which
crashed killing all on board, Russia's civil aviation authority has said.

Earlier, Wagner-linked Telegram channel Grey Zone reported the Embraer
aircraft was shot down by air defences in the Tver region, north of Moscow.
The private jet, which was flying from Moscow to St Petersburg, was
carrying seven passengers and three crew.

Prigozhin led a failed mutiny against the Russian armed forces in June.

Grey Zone said local residents heard two bangs before the crash and saw two
vapour trails.

Tass news agency said the plane, an Embraer Legacy belonging to Prigozhin,
caught fire on hitting the ground.

The aircraft had been in the air for less than half an hour, it said.

An investigation has been launched into the crash and emergency services
are searching the site.
Another news agency, Ria, said eight bodies had been recovered.

Grey Zone reports that a second business jet owned by Prigozhin landed
safely in the Moscow region.
Follow live updates here.

The 62-year-old mercenary boss headed the mutiny on 23-24 June, moving his
troops from Ukraine, seizing the southern Russian city of Rostov on Don,
and threatening to march on Moscow.

The move came after months of tension with Russian military commanders over
the Ukraine conflict.
The stand-off was settled by a deal which allowed Wagner troops to move to
Belarus or join the Russian army.

Prigozhin himself agreed to relocate to Belarus but has apparently been
able to move freely, making public appearances in Russia and releasing a
video of him purportedly in Africa.

But several Russia watchers have described him as a "dead man walking"
since the mutiny.

President Putin's initial reaction to his challenge to Russia's defence
establishment was vitriolic, calling it a betrayal and a stab in the back
in a video message on 24 June.

The deal did not mean he was safe.

"Revenge," commented CIA director William Burns, "is a dish Putin prefers
served cold" - or words to that effect.

None of this, of course, is proof that Prigozhin and his entourage were
deliberately targeted.

But given the circumstances any claims that his demise, if confirmed, was
an accident will see a lot of eyebrows raised.

<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-66599733>

—
Spike

On 23/08/2023 19:43, Spike wrote:
>
> Wagner boss Yevgeny Prigozhin was on the passenger list of a jet which
> crashed killing all on board, Russia's civil aviation authority has said.
>
> Earlier, Wagner-linked Telegram channel Grey Zone reported the Embraer
> aircraft was shot down by air defences in the Tver region, north of Moscow.
> The private jet, which was flying from Moscow to St Petersburg, was
> carrying seven passengers and three crew.
>
> Prigozhin led a failed mutiny against the Russian armed forces in June.
>
> Grey Zone said local residents heard two bangs before the crash and saw two
> vapour trails.
>
> Tass news agency said the plane, an Embraer Legacy belonging to Prigozhin,
> caught fire on hitting the ground.
>
> The aircraft had been in the air for less than half an hour, it said.
>
> An investigation has been launched into the crash and emergency services
> are searching the site.
> Another news agency, Ria, said eight bodies had been recovered.
>
> Grey Zone reports that a second business jet owned by Prigozhin landed
> safely in the Moscow region.
> Follow live updates here.
>
> The 62-year-old mercenary boss headed the mutiny on 23-24 June, moving his
> troops from Ukraine, seizing the southern Russian city of Rostov on Don,
> and threatening to march on Moscow.
>
> The move came after months of tension with Russian military commanders over
> the Ukraine conflict.
> The stand-off was settled by a deal which allowed Wagner troops to move to
> Belarus or join the Russian army.
>
> Prigozhin himself agreed to relocate to Belarus but has apparently been
> able to move freely, making public appearances in Russia and releasing a
> video of him purportedly in Africa.
>
> But several Russia watchers have described him as a "dead man walking"
> since the mutiny.
>
> President Putin's initial reaction to his challenge to Russia's defence
> establishment was vitriolic, calling it a betrayal and a stab in the back
> in a video message on 24 June.
>
> The deal did not mean he was safe.
>
> "Revenge," commented CIA director William Burns, "is a dish Putin prefers
> served cold" - or words to that effect.
>
> None of this, of course, is proof that Prigozhin and his entourage were
> deliberately targeted.
>
> But given the circumstances any claims that his demise, if confirmed, was
> an accident will see a lot of eyebrows raised.
>
> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-66599733>
>
> —
> Spike

Putin will probably claim it was a Ukrainian drone strike.

--
Colin Bignell

who cares...nasty bunch

On 23/08/2023 20:05, Colin Bignell wrote:
> On 23/08/2023 19:43, Spike wrote:
>>
>> Wagner boss Yevgeny Prigozhin was on the passenger list of a jet which
>> crashed killing all on board, Russia's civil aviation authority has said.
>>
>> Earlier, Wagner-linked Telegram channel Grey Zone reported the Embraer
>> aircraft was shot down by air defences in the Tver region, north of
>> Moscow.
>> The private jet, which was flying from Moscow to St Petersburg, was
>> carrying seven passengers and three crew.
>>
>> Prigozhin led a failed mutiny against the Russian armed forces in June.
>>
>> Grey Zone said local residents heard two bangs before the crash and
>> saw two
>> vapour trails.
>>
>> Tass news agency said the plane, an Embraer Legacy belonging to
>> Prigozhin,
>> caught fire on hitting the ground.
>>
>> The aircraft had been in the air for less than half an hour, it said.
>>
>> An investigation has been launched into the crash and emergency services
>> are searching the site.
>> Another news agency, Ria, said eight bodies had been recovered.
>>
>> Grey Zone reports that a second business jet owned by Prigozhin landed
>> safely in the Moscow region.
>> Follow live updates here.
>>
>> The 62-year-old mercenary boss headed the mutiny on 23-24 June, moving
>> his
>> troops from Ukraine, seizing the southern Russian city of Rostov on Don,
>> and threatening to march on Moscow.
>>
>> The move came after months of tension with Russian military commanders
>> over
>> the Ukraine conflict.
>> The stand-off was settled by a deal which allowed Wagner troops to
>> move to
>> Belarus or join the Russian army.
>>
>> Prigozhin himself agreed to relocate to Belarus but has apparently been
>> able to move freely, making public appearances in Russia and releasing a
>> video of him purportedly in Africa.
>>
>> But several Russia watchers have described him as a "dead man walking"
>> since the mutiny.
>>
>> President Putin's initial reaction to his challenge to Russia's defence
>> establishment was vitriolic, calling it a betrayal and a stab in the back
>> in a video message on 24 June.
>>
>> The deal did not mean he was safe.
>>
>> "Revenge," commented CIA director William Burns, "is a dish Putin prefers
>> served cold" - or words to that effect.
>>
>> None of this, of course, is proof that Prigozhin and his entourage were
>> deliberately targeted.
>>
>> But given the circumstances any claims that his demise, if confirmed, was
>> an accident will see a lot of eyebrows raised.
>>
>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-66599733>
>>
>> —
>> Spike
>
> Putin will probably claim it was a Ukrainian drone strike.

The photos I have seen shows panels of the aircraft peppered with small
projectile punctures as you would expect from a anti aircraft missile,
so if he is going to argue that, he will have to admit their are
Ukranian surface to air missile batteries located somewhere between
Moscow and St. Petersburg! (but when has plausibility ever been
considered necessary for propaganda purposes)

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 00:43:48 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

> On 23/08/2023 20:05, Colin Bignell wrote:
>> On 23/08/2023 19:43, Spike wrote:
>>>
>>> Wagner boss Yevgeny Prigozhin was on the passenger list of a jet which
>>> crashed killing all on board, Russia's civil aviation authority has
>>> said.
>>>
>>> Earlier, Wagner-linked Telegram channel Grey Zone reported the Embraer
>>> aircraft was shot down by air defences in the Tver region, north of
>>> Moscow.
>>> The private jet, which was flying from Moscow to St Petersburg, was
>>> carrying seven passengers and three crew.
>>>
>>> Prigozhin led a failed mutiny against the Russian armed forces in
>>> June.
>>>
>>> Grey Zone said local residents heard two bangs before the crash and
>>> saw two vapour trails.
>>>
>>> Tass news agency said the plane, an Embraer Legacy belonging to
>>> Prigozhin,
>>> caught fire on hitting the ground.
>>>
>>> The aircraft had been in the air for less than half an hour, it said.
>>>
>>> An investigation has been launched into the crash and emergency
>>> services are searching the site.
>>> Another news agency, Ria, said eight bodies had been recovered.
>>>
>>> Grey Zone reports that a second business jet owned by Prigozhin landed
>>> safely in the Moscow region.
>>> Follow live updates here.
>>>
>>> The 62-year-old mercenary boss headed the mutiny on 23-24 June, moving
>>> his troops from Ukraine, seizing the southern Russian city of Rostov
>>> on Don, and threatening to march on Moscow.
>>>
>>> The move came after months of tension with Russian military commanders
>>> over the Ukraine conflict.
>>> The stand-off was settled by a deal which allowed Wagner troops to
>>> move to Belarus or join the Russian army.
>>>
>>> Prigozhin himself agreed to relocate to Belarus but has apparently
>>> been able to move freely, making public appearances in Russia and
>>> releasing a video of him purportedly in Africa.
>>>
>>> But several Russia watchers have described him as a "dead man walking"
>>> since the mutiny.
>>>
>>> President Putin's initial reaction to his challenge to Russia's
>>> defence establishment was vitriolic, calling it a betrayal and a stab
>>> in the back in a video message on 24 June.
>>>
>>> The deal did not mean he was safe.
>>>
>>> "Revenge," commented CIA director William Burns, "is a dish Putin
>>> prefers served cold" - or words to that effect.
>>>
>>> None of this, of course, is proof that Prigozhin and his entourage
>>> were deliberately targeted.
>>>
>>> But given the circumstances any claims that his demise, if confirmed,
>>> was an accident will see a lot of eyebrows raised.
>>>
>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-66599733>
>>>
>>> —
>>> Spike
>>
>> Putin will probably claim it was a Ukrainian drone strike.
>
> The photos I have seen shows panels of the aircraft peppered with small
> projectile punctures as you would expect from a anti aircraft missile,
> so if he is going to argue that, he will have to admit their are
> Ukranian surface to air missile batteries located somewhere between
> Moscow and St. Petersburg! (but when has plausibility ever been
> considered necessary for propaganda purposes)

Russia: We shot down a plane that had not filed a flight plan and that
did not respond when we attempted to contact it. Our air force tried to
intercept it, but it ignored all signals as it was headed to a populated
area we had no choice but to neutralise it. If you believe otherwise,
prove it ...

On 24/08/2023 00:43, John Rumm wrote:

> The photos I have seen shows panels of the aircraft peppered with small
> projectile punctures as you would expect from a anti aircraft missile,
> so if he is going to argue that, he will have to admit their are
> Ukranian surface to air missile batteries located somewhere between
> Moscow and St. Petersburg! (but when has plausibility ever been
> considered necessary for propaganda purposes)
>

The aircraft had all its transponders turned off and was mistaken for a
Ukrainian drone.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

> On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 00:43:48 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

>> The photos I have seen shows panels of the aircraft peppered with small
>> projectile punctures as you would expect from a anti aircraft missile,
>> so if he is going to argue that, he will have to admit their are
>> Ukranian surface to air missile batteries located somewhere between
>> Moscow and St. Petersburg! (but when has plausibility ever been
>> considered necessary for propaganda purposes)
>

It may have been an air-to-air missile, but missile it was.

--
“The fundamental cause of the trouble in the modern world today is that
the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt."

- Bertrand Russell

On 23 Aug 2023 at 19:43:56 BST, Spike wrote:

> Wagner boss Yevgeny Prigozhin was on the passenger list of a jet which
> crashed killing all on board, Russia's civil aviation authority has said.

Makes no sense at all to me. Would you be flying, and on a passenger list, in
Russian airspace if you'd just led a coup against Putin?

And if it was Prigozhin on that plane, I dread to think what sort of insurance
policy he had in place in the event of his demise.

--
Cheers, Rob, Sheffield UK

On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 07:40:02 +0100, alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk>
wrote:

>On 24/08/2023 00:43, John Rumm wrote:
>
>> The photos I have seen shows panels of the aircraft peppered with small
>> projectile punctures as you would expect from a anti aircraft missile,
>> so if he is going to argue that, he will have to admit their are
>> Ukranian surface to air missile batteries located somewhere between
>> Moscow and St. Petersburg! (but when has plausibility ever been
>> considered necessary for propaganda purposes)
>>
>
>The aircraft had all its transponders turned off and was mistaken for a
>Ukrainian drone.

Are you saying that was what actually happened or are you speculating?
Either way, it sounds quite plausible.

--
Chris

On 24/08/2023 07:40, alan_m wrote:
> On 24/08/2023 00:43, John Rumm wrote:
>
>> The photos I have seen shows panels of the aircraft peppered with
>> small projectile punctures as you would expect from a anti aircraft
>> missile, so if he is going to argue that, he will have to admit their
>> are Ukranian surface to air missile batteries located somewhere
>> between Moscow and St. Petersburg! (but when has plausibility ever
>> been considered necessary for propaganda purposes)
>>
>
> The aircraft had all its transponders turned off and was mistaken for a
> Ukrainian drone.
>
On the contrary, unusually for Russia, it had all its transponders on
and was trackable on ADSB exchange/flight radar etc.

I would say, given the abysmal performance of Russia's SAMS, that it was
probably shot down by a fighter with an air to air missile.

Hell, what the fuck does it matter? One more murdering psychopathic
bastard down, another thousand to go...

Russia is imploding, oligarch by oligarch. It's like musical chairs.
Meanwhile while Ukraine and NATO haven't delivered a crucial blow, they
aren't losing either. More and more kit is arriving as Russia runs out

F16's on the way... allegedly...

--
“The fundamental cause of the trouble in the modern world today is that
the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt."

- Bertrand Russell

On 24/08/2023 00:43, John Rumm wrote:
> On 23/08/2023 20:05, Colin Bignell wrote:
>> On 23/08/2023 19:43, Spike wrote:
>>>
>>> Wagner boss Yevgeny Prigozhin was on the passenger list of a jet which
>>> crashed killing all on board, Russia's civil aviation authority has
>>> said.
>>>
>>> Earlier, Wagner-linked Telegram channel Grey Zone reported the Embraer
>>> aircraft was shot down by air defences in the Tver region, north of
>>> Moscow.
>>> The private jet, which was flying from Moscow to St Petersburg, was
>>> carrying seven passengers and three crew.
>>>
>>> Prigozhin led a failed mutiny against the Russian armed forces in June.
>>>
>>> Grey Zone said local residents heard two bangs before the crash and
>>> saw two
>>> vapour trails.
>>>
>>> Tass news agency said the plane, an Embraer Legacy belonging to
>>> Prigozhin,
>>> caught fire on hitting the ground.
>>>
>>> The aircraft had been in the air for less than half an hour, it said.
>>>
>>> An investigation has been launched into the crash and emergency services
>>> are searching the site.
>>> Another news agency, Ria, said eight bodies had been recovered.
>>>
>>> Grey Zone reports that a second business jet owned by Prigozhin landed
>>> safely in the Moscow region.
>>> Follow live updates here.
>>>
>>> The 62-year-old mercenary boss headed the mutiny on 23-24 June,
>>> moving his
>>> troops from Ukraine, seizing the southern Russian city of Rostov on Don,
>>> and threatening to march on Moscow.
>>>
>>> The move came after months of tension with Russian military
>>> commanders over
>>> the Ukraine conflict.
>>> The stand-off was settled by a deal which allowed Wagner troops to
>>> move to
>>> Belarus or join the Russian army.
>>>
>>> Prigozhin himself agreed to relocate to Belarus but has apparently been
>>> able to move freely, making public appearances in Russia and releasing a
>>> video of him purportedly in Africa.
>>>
>>> But several Russia watchers have described him as a "dead man walking"
>>> since the mutiny.
>>>
>>> President Putin's initial reaction to his challenge to Russia's defence
>>> establishment was vitriolic, calling it a betrayal and a stab in the
>>> back
>>> in a video message on 24 June.
>>>
>>> The deal did not mean he was safe.
>>>
>>> "Revenge," commented CIA director William Burns, "is a dish Putin
>>> prefers
>>> served cold" - or words to that effect.
>>>
>>> None of this, of course, is proof that Prigozhin and his entourage were
>>> deliberately targeted.
>>>
>>> But given the circumstances any claims that his demise, if confirmed,
>>> was
>>> an accident will see a lot of eyebrows raised.
>>>
>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-66599733>
>>>
>>> —
>>> Spike
>>
>> Putin will probably claim it was a Ukrainian drone strike.
>
> The photos I have seen shows panels of the aircraft peppered with small
> projectile punctures as you would expect from a anti aircraft missile,
> so if he is going to argue that, he will have to admit their are
> Ukranian surface to air missile batteries located somewhere between
> Moscow and St. Petersburg! (but when has plausibility ever been
> considered necessary for propaganda purposes)
>

He could just claim that Ukraine has a drone with an anti-aircraft payload.

--
Colin Bignell

On 24.8.23 8:13 am, RJH wrote:
> On 23 Aug 2023 at 19:43:56 BST, Spike wrote:
>
>> Wagner boss Yevgeny Prigozhin was on the passenger list of a jet which
>> crashed killing all on board, Russia's civil aviation authority has said.
>
> Makes no sense at all to me. Would you be flying, and on a passenger list, in
> Russian airspace if you'd just led a coup against Putin?
>
> And if it was Prigozhin on that plane, I dread to think what sort of insurance
> policy he had in place in the event of his demise.
>

I can't see the sense either. I imagine he's been dead for a while, and
this is some sort of cover story - but I can't think why they would pick
such a silly one.

--
Tetbury, Gloucestershire , UK

Inside every old man is a young man wondering what the hell happened.

Question is, was he actually on it?
Brian

--

--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Spike" <aero.spike@btinternet.invalid> wrote in message
news:kkn2bcF2v7fU1@mid.individual.net...
>
> Wagner boss Yevgeny Prigozhin was on the passenger list of a jet which
> crashed killing all on board, Russia's civil aviation authority has said.
>
> Earlier, Wagner-linked Telegram channel Grey Zone reported the Embraer
> aircraft was shot down by air defences in the Tver region, north of
> Moscow.
> The private jet, which was flying from Moscow to St Petersburg, was
> carrying seven passengers and three crew.
>
> Prigozhin led a failed mutiny against the Russian armed forces in June.
>
> Grey Zone said local residents heard two bangs before the crash and saw
> two
> vapour trails.
>
> Tass news agency said the plane, an Embraer Legacy belonging to Prigozhin,
> caught fire on hitting the ground.
>
> The aircraft had been in the air for less than half an hour, it said.
>
> An investigation has been launched into the crash and emergency services
> are searching the site.
> Another news agency, Ria, said eight bodies had been recovered.
>
> Grey Zone reports that a second business jet owned by Prigozhin landed
> safely in the Moscow region.
> Follow live updates here.
>
> The 62-year-old mercenary boss headed the mutiny on 23-24 June, moving his
> troops from Ukraine, seizing the southern Russian city of Rostov on Don,
> and threatening to march on Moscow.
>
> The move came after months of tension with Russian military commanders
> over
> the Ukraine conflict.
> The stand-off was settled by a deal which allowed Wagner troops to move to
> Belarus or join the Russian army.
>
> Prigozhin himself agreed to relocate to Belarus but has apparently been
> able to move freely, making public appearances in Russia and releasing a
> video of him purportedly in Africa.
>
> But several Russia watchers have described him as a "dead man walking"
> since the mutiny.
>
> President Putin's initial reaction to his challenge to Russia's defence
> establishment was vitriolic, calling it a betrayal and a stab in the back
> in a video message on 24 June.
>
> The deal did not mean he was safe.
>
> "Revenge," commented CIA director William Burns, "is a dish Putin prefers
> served cold" - or words to that effect.
>
> None of this, of course, is proof that Prigozhin and his entourage were
> deliberately targeted.
>
> But given the circumstances any claims that his demise, if confirmed, was
> an accident will see a lot of eyebrows raised.
>
> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-66599733>
>
> -
> Spike

On 24/08/2023 08:58, Bob Henson wrote:
> On 24.8.23 8:13 am, RJH wrote:
>> On 23 Aug 2023 at 19:43:56 BST, Spike wrote:
>>
>>> Wagner boss Yevgeny Prigozhin was on the passenger list of a jet which
>>> crashed killing all on board, Russia's civil aviation authority has
>>> said.
>>
>> Makes no sense at all to me. Would you be flying, and on a passenger
>> list, in
>> Russian airspace if you'd just led a coup against Putin?
>>
>> And if it was Prigozhin on that plane, I dread to think what sort of
>> insurance
>> policy he had in place in the event of his demise.
>>
>
> I can't see the sense either. I imagine he's been dead for a while, and
> this is some sort of cover story - but I can't think why they would pick
> such a silly one.

He was in Africa a couple of days ago spouting nonsense about how he was
now going to bring freedom and prosperity to African nations!

(or more correctly, how he was going to prop up other despotic dictators
and protect them from their put upon populations... in exchange for some
token access to their mineral, precious metal, and other natural
resources of course)

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

On 24/08/2023 08:13, RJH wrote:
> On 23 Aug 2023 at 19:43:56 BST, Spike wrote:
>
>> Wagner boss Yevgeny Prigozhin was on the passenger list of a jet which
>> crashed killing all on board, Russia's civil aviation authority has said.
>
> Makes no sense at all to me. Would you be flying, and on a passenger list, in
> Russian airspace if you'd just led a coup against Putin?
>
> And if it was Prigozhin on that plane, I dread to think what sort of insurance
> policy he had in place in the event of his demise.
>

I am sure that Putin and the FSB gave him guarantees of safety. Shame he
didn't get one from the air force...

--
When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over
the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that
authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.

Frédéric Bastiat

On 24/08/2023 08:14, Chris Hogg wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 07:40:02 +0100, alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> On 24/08/2023 00:43, John Rumm wrote:
>>
>>> The photos I have seen shows panels of the aircraft peppered with small
>>> projectile punctures as you would expect from a anti aircraft missile,
>>> so if he is going to argue that, he will have to admit their are
>>> Ukranian surface to air missile batteries located somewhere between
>>> Moscow and St. Petersburg! (but when has plausibility ever been
>>> considered necessary for propaganda purposes)
>>>
>>
>> The aircraft had all its transponders turned off and was mistaken for a
>> Ukrainian drone.
>
> Are you saying that was what actually happened or are you speculating?
> Either way, it sounds quite plausible.
>
He is dreaming up a plausibly deniable narrative.
However it did have its transponders on.

--
When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over
the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that
authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.

Frédéric Bastiat

On 24/08/2023 08:43, Colin Bignell wrote:
> On 24/08/2023 00:43, John Rumm wrote:
>> On 23/08/2023 20:05, Colin Bignell wrote:
>>> On 23/08/2023 19:43, Spike wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Wagner boss Yevgeny Prigozhin was on the passenger list of a jet which
>>>> crashed killing all on board, Russia's civil aviation authority has
>>>> said.
>>>>
>>>> Earlier, Wagner-linked Telegram channel Grey Zone reported the Embraer
>>>> aircraft was shot down by air defences in the Tver region, north of
>>>> Moscow.
>>>> The private jet, which was flying from Moscow to St Petersburg, was
>>>> carrying seven passengers and three crew.
>>>>
>>>> Prigozhin led a failed mutiny against the Russian armed forces in June.
>>>>
>>>> Grey Zone said local residents heard two bangs before the crash and
>>>> saw two
>>>> vapour trails.
>>>>
>>>> Tass news agency said the plane, an Embraer Legacy belonging to
>>>> Prigozhin,
>>>> caught fire on hitting the ground.
>>>>
>>>> The aircraft had been in the air for less than half an hour, it said.
>>>>
>>>> An investigation has been launched into the crash and emergency
>>>> services
>>>> are searching the site.
>>>> Another news agency, Ria, said eight bodies had been recovered.
>>>>
>>>> Grey Zone reports that a second business jet owned by Prigozhin landed
>>>> safely in the Moscow region.
>>>> Follow live updates here.
>>>>
>>>> The 62-year-old mercenary boss headed the mutiny on 23-24 June,
>>>> moving his
>>>> troops from Ukraine, seizing the southern Russian city of Rostov on
>>>> Don,
>>>> and threatening to march on Moscow.
>>>>
>>>> The move came after months of tension with Russian military
>>>> commanders over
>>>> the Ukraine conflict.
>>>> The stand-off was settled by a deal which allowed Wagner troops to
>>>> move to
>>>> Belarus or join the Russian army.
>>>>
>>>> Prigozhin himself agreed to relocate to Belarus but has apparently been
>>>> able to move freely, making public appearances in Russia and
>>>> releasing a
>>>> video of him purportedly in Africa.
>>>>
>>>> But several Russia watchers have described him as a "dead man walking"
>>>> since the mutiny.
>>>>
>>>> President Putin's initial reaction to his challenge to Russia's defence
>>>> establishment was vitriolic, calling it a betrayal and a stab in the
>>>> back
>>>> in a video message on 24 June.
>>>>
>>>> The deal did not mean he was safe.
>>>>
>>>> "Revenge," commented CIA director William Burns, "is a dish Putin
>>>> prefers
>>>> served cold" - or words to that effect.
>>>>
>>>> None of this, of course, is proof that Prigozhin and his entourage were
>>>> deliberately targeted.
>>>>
>>>> But given the circumstances any claims that his demise, if
>>>> confirmed, was
>>>> an accident will see a lot of eyebrows raised.
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-66599733>
>>>>
>>>> —
>>>> Spike
>>>
>>> Putin will probably claim it was a Ukrainian drone strike.
>>
>> The photos I have seen shows panels of the aircraft peppered with
>> small projectile punctures as you would expect from a anti aircraft
>> missile, so if he is going to argue that, he will have to admit their
>> are Ukranian surface to air missile batteries located somewhere
>> between Moscow and St. Petersburg! (but when has plausibility ever
>> been considered necessary for propaganda purposes)
>>
>
> He could just claim that Ukraine has a drone with an anti-aircraft payload.
>
Well, it doesn't.

--
When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over
the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that
authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.

Frédéric Bastiat

On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 11:00:01 +0100, Brian Gaff wrote:

> Question is, was he actually on it?
> Brian

If he wasn't he will know where he stands.

On 24/08/2023 14:34, Smolley wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 11:00:01 +0100, Brian Gaff wrote:
>
>> Question is, was he actually on it?
>> Brian
>
> If he wasn't he will know where he stands.

I think everyone is overthinking this.

He was on it, he was shot down probably by an air to air missile,
otherwise by a SAM and he is now dead.

*Why* he was on it, I don't know., It was stupid to attempt a coup and
not follow it through.

Russians at the high level are brutal, and psychopathic. Otherwise they
don't get to the high level. They are not necessarily smart.

--
"First, find out who are the people you can not criticise. They are your
oppressors."
- George Orwell

On 24/08/2023 14:32, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 24/08/2023 08:43, Colin Bignell wrote:
>> On 24/08/2023 00:43, John Rumm wrote:
>>> On 23/08/2023 20:05, Colin Bignell wrote:
>>>> On 23/08/2023 19:43, Spike wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Wagner boss Yevgeny Prigozhin was on the passenger list of a jet which
>>>>> crashed killing all on board, Russia's civil aviation authority has
>>>>> said.
>>>>>
>>>>> Earlier, Wagner-linked Telegram channel Grey Zone reported the Embraer
>>>>> aircraft was shot down by air defences in the Tver region, north of
>>>>> Moscow.
>>>>> The private jet, which was flying from Moscow to St Petersburg, was
>>>>> carrying seven passengers and three crew.
>>>>>
>>>>> Prigozhin led a failed mutiny against the Russian armed forces in
>>>>> June.
>>>>>
>>>>> Grey Zone said local residents heard two bangs before the crash and
>>>>> saw two
>>>>> vapour trails.
>>>>>
>>>>> Tass news agency said the plane, an Embraer Legacy belonging to
>>>>> Prigozhin,
>>>>> caught fire on hitting the ground.
>>>>>
>>>>> The aircraft had been in the air for less than half an hour, it said.
>>>>>
>>>>> An investigation has been launched into the crash and emergency
>>>>> services
>>>>> are searching the site.
>>>>> Another news agency, Ria, said eight bodies had been recovered.
>>>>>
>>>>> Grey Zone reports that a second business jet owned by Prigozhin landed
>>>>> safely in the Moscow region.
>>>>> Follow live updates here.
>>>>>
>>>>> The 62-year-old mercenary boss headed the mutiny on 23-24 June,
>>>>> moving his
>>>>> troops from Ukraine, seizing the southern Russian city of Rostov on
>>>>> Don,
>>>>> and threatening to march on Moscow.
>>>>>
>>>>> The move came after months of tension with Russian military
>>>>> commanders over
>>>>> the Ukraine conflict.
>>>>> The stand-off was settled by a deal which allowed Wagner troops to
>>>>> move to
>>>>> Belarus or join the Russian army.
>>>>>
>>>>> Prigozhin himself agreed to relocate to Belarus but has apparently
>>>>> been
>>>>> able to move freely, making public appearances in Russia and
>>>>> releasing a
>>>>> video of him purportedly in Africa.
>>>>>
>>>>> But several Russia watchers have described him as a "dead man walking"
>>>>> since the mutiny.
>>>>>
>>>>> President Putin's initial reaction to his challenge to Russia's
>>>>> defence
>>>>> establishment was vitriolic, calling it a betrayal and a stab in
>>>>> the back
>>>>> in a video message on 24 June.
>>>>>
>>>>> The deal did not mean he was safe.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Revenge," commented CIA director William Burns, "is a dish Putin
>>>>> prefers
>>>>> served cold" - or words to that effect.
>>>>>
>>>>> None of this, of course, is proof that Prigozhin and his entourage
>>>>> were
>>>>> deliberately targeted.
>>>>>
>>>>> But given the circumstances any claims that his demise, if
>>>>> confirmed, was
>>>>> an accident will see a lot of eyebrows raised.
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-66599733>
>>>>>
>>>>> —
>>>>> Spike
>>>>
>>>> Putin will probably claim it was a Ukrainian drone strike.
>>>
>>> The photos I have seen shows panels of the aircraft peppered with
>>> small projectile punctures as you would expect from a anti aircraft
>>> missile, so if he is going to argue that, he will have to admit their
>>> are Ukranian surface to air missile batteries located somewhere
>>> between Moscow and St. Petersburg! (but when has plausibility ever
>>> been considered necessary for propaganda purposes)
>>>
>>
>> He could just claim that Ukraine has a drone with an anti-aircraft
>> payload.
>>
> Well, it doesn't.
>

You don't think that would stop him making the claim, do you?

--
Colin Bignell

On 24/08/2023 15:29, Colin Bignell wrote:
> On 24/08/2023 14:32, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 24/08/2023 08:43, Colin Bignell wrote:
>>> On 24/08/2023 00:43, John Rumm wrote:
>>>> On 23/08/2023 20:05, Colin Bignell wrote:
>>>>> On 23/08/2023 19:43, Spike wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Wagner boss Yevgeny Prigozhin was on the passenger list of a jet
>>>>>> which
>>>>>> crashed killing all on board, Russia's civil aviation authority
>>>>>> has said.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Earlier, Wagner-linked Telegram channel Grey Zone reported the
>>>>>> Embraer
>>>>>> aircraft was shot down by air defences in the Tver region, north
>>>>>> of Moscow.
>>>>>> The private jet, which was flying from Moscow to St Petersburg, was
>>>>>> carrying seven passengers and three crew.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Prigozhin led a failed mutiny against the Russian armed forces in
>>>>>> June.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Grey Zone said local residents heard two bangs before the crash
>>>>>> and saw two
>>>>>> vapour trails.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tass news agency said the plane, an Embraer Legacy belonging to
>>>>>> Prigozhin,
>>>>>> caught fire on hitting the ground.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The aircraft had been in the air for less than half an hour, it said.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> An investigation has been launched into the crash and emergency
>>>>>> services
>>>>>> are searching the site.
>>>>>> Another news agency, Ria, said eight bodies had been recovered.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Grey Zone reports that a second business jet owned by Prigozhin
>>>>>> landed
>>>>>> safely in the Moscow region.
>>>>>> Follow live updates here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The 62-year-old mercenary boss headed the mutiny on 23-24 June,
>>>>>> moving his
>>>>>> troops from Ukraine, seizing the southern Russian city of Rostov
>>>>>> on Don,
>>>>>> and threatening to march on Moscow.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The move came after months of tension with Russian military
>>>>>> commanders over
>>>>>> the Ukraine conflict.
>>>>>> The stand-off was settled by a deal which allowed Wagner troops to
>>>>>> move to
>>>>>> Belarus or join the Russian army.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Prigozhin himself agreed to relocate to Belarus but has apparently
>>>>>> been
>>>>>> able to move freely, making public appearances in Russia and
>>>>>> releasing a
>>>>>> video of him purportedly in Africa.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But several Russia watchers have described him as a "dead man
>>>>>> walking"
>>>>>> since the mutiny.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> President Putin's initial reaction to his challenge to Russia's
>>>>>> defence
>>>>>> establishment was vitriolic, calling it a betrayal and a stab in
>>>>>> the back
>>>>>> in a video message on 24 June.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The deal did not mean he was safe.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Revenge," commented CIA director William Burns, "is a dish Putin
>>>>>> prefers
>>>>>> served cold" - or words to that effect.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> None of this, of course, is proof that Prigozhin and his entourage
>>>>>> were
>>>>>> deliberately targeted.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But given the circumstances any claims that his demise, if
>>>>>> confirmed, was
>>>>>> an accident will see a lot of eyebrows raised.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-66599733>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> —
>>>>>> Spike
>>>>>
>>>>> Putin will probably claim it was a Ukrainian drone strike.
>>>>
>>>> The photos I have seen shows panels of the aircraft peppered with
>>>> small projectile punctures as you would expect from a anti aircraft
>>>> missile, so if he is going to argue that, he will have to admit
>>>> their are Ukranian surface to air missile batteries located
>>>> somewhere between Moscow and St. Petersburg! (but when has
>>>> plausibility ever been considered necessary for propaganda purposes)
>>>>
>>>
>>> He could just claim that Ukraine has a drone with an anti-aircraft
>>> payload.
>>>
>> Well, it doesn't.
>>
>
> You don't think that would stop him making the claim, do you?
>
It might.
Putin's methodology is plausible deniability. Right now that means a
bomb on board, not a missile from a Russian agency. Prigozhin is out of
Ukraine. They have no reason to rub him out.

Putin has every reason, maybe the CIA *some* reasons, but
overwhelmingly he was a threat to Putin.

He was downed by a Russian missile or missiles in Russian airspace. The
evidence admits of no other explanation . Whether that was
surface-to-air or air-to-air, and who fired it, you can make up your own
minds on.

--
"Women actually are capable of being far more than the feminists will
let them."