Hemsby is a coastal village in N Norfolk, where the cliffs are made of
sand/soft sandstone. It's being washed away by the sea at a rate of
knots, much to the upset of the locals, especially those with homes on
top of the cliffs! The government is refusing to pay for sea defences.

Portland cement costs around £50-£100 a ton. There's unlimited sand,
pebbles, and salty water available for nothing. Salt water seems to be
okay for making concrete, as long as you don't put rebar in it.

So, would it be feasible for the locals to make their own sea defences
pretty cheaply? Or, am I grossly underestimating the number of tons of
cement needed, and the cost of mixing it up?

On 03/09/2023 12:52, GB wrote:
>
> Hemsby is a coastal village in N Norfolk, where the cliffs are made of
> sand/soft sandstone. It's being washed away by the sea at a rate of
> knots, much to the upset of the locals, especially those with homes on
> top of the cliffs!  The government is refusing to pay for sea defences.
>
> Portland cement costs around £50-£100 a ton. There's unlimited sand,
> pebbles,

All of which belongs to somebody. The beach between high and low water
belongs to The Crown. The beach above high water belongs to either a
landowner or the local Council and removing sand or pebbles from below
low water requires a dredging licence.

> and salty water available for nothing. Salt water seems to be
> okay for making concrete, as long as you don't put rebar in it.

I wouldn't be surprised if that needed an extraction licence, but ICBA
to check.

>
> So, would it be feasible for the locals to make their own sea defences
> pretty cheaply? Or, am I grossly underestimating the number of tons of
> cement needed, and the cost of mixing it up?

I would expect any such works to require planning permission and / or
permission from the Environment Agency. They would probably also need to
comply with the government coastal defence design and practice guide.

--
Colin Bignell

Well, yes, I think that if this has just started to happen, then there has
to be a reason for it, maybe some change in the coastline locally.
I fear that it would not really be feasible to protect this village from
the eventual doom. Sad to say, bad choice of land in the first place.
Brian

--

--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"GB" <NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid> wrote in message
news:ud1s1d$t9ak$1@dont-email.me...
>
> Hemsby is a coastal village in N Norfolk, where the cliffs are made of
> sand/soft sandstone. It's being washed away by the sea at a rate of knots,
> much to the upset of the locals, especially those with homes on top of the
> cliffs! The government is refusing to pay for sea defences.
>
> Portland cement costs around �50-�100 a ton. There's unlimited sand,
> pebbles, and salty water available for nothing. Salt water seems to be
> okay for making concrete, as long as you don't put rebar in it.
>
> So, would it be feasible for the locals to make their own sea defences
> pretty cheaply? Or, am I grossly underestimating the number of tons of
> cement needed, and the cost of mixing it up?
>
>

On 03/09/2023 12:52, GB wrote:
>
> Hemsby is a coastal village in N Norfolk, where the cliffs are made of
> sand/soft sandstone. It's being washed away by the sea at a rate of
> knots, much to the upset of the locals, especially those with homes on
> top of the cliffs!  The government is refusing to pay for sea defences.
>
> Portland cement costs around £50-£100 a ton. There's unlimited sand,
> pebbles, and salty water available for nothing. Salt water seems to be
> okay for making concrete, as long as you don't put rebar in it.
>
> So, would it be feasible for the locals to make their own sea defences
> pretty cheaply? Or, am I grossly underestimating the number of tons of
> cement needed, and the cost of mixing it up?

There are already plans:
https://www.greatyarmouthmercury.co.uk/news/23229886.hemsby-erosion-interim-works-protect-beach-access-road/

I think rock would be cheaper than cement, unless you were to place
piling under your property, so when the sand is in part washed away your
house could be sitting high and dry?

On Sun, 03 Sep 2023 12:52:12 +0100, GB wrote:

> Hemsby is a coastal village in N Norfolk, where the cliffs are made of
> sand/soft sandstone. It's being washed away by the sea at a rate of
> knots, much to the upset of the locals, especially those with homes on
> top of the cliffs! The government is refusing to pay for sea defences.
>
> Portland cement costs around £50-£100 a ton. There's unlimited sand,
> pebbles, and salty water available for nothing. Salt water seems to be
> okay for making concrete, as long as you don't put rebar in it.
>
> So, would it be feasible for the locals to make their own sea defences
> pretty cheaply? Or, am I grossly underestimating the number of tons of
> cement needed, and the cost of mixing it up?

Isolated concrete defences would probably have the surrounding sand washed
away and just get gradually buried.

If it was cheap and easy it would (probably) already have been done.

Cheers

Dave R

--
AMD FX-6300 in GA-990X-Gaming SLI-CF running Windows 10 x64

On 9/3/2023 7:52 AM, GB wrote:
>
> Hemsby is a coastal village in N Norfolk, where the cliffs are made of sand/soft sandstone. It's being washed away by the sea at a rate of knots, much to the upset of the locals, especially those with homes on top of the cliffs!  The government is refusing to pay for sea defences.
>
> Portland cement costs around £50-£100 a ton. There's unlimited sand, pebbles, and salty water available for nothing. Salt water seems to be okay for making concrete, as long as you don't put rebar in it.
>
> So, would it be feasible for the locals to make their own sea defences pretty cheaply? Or, am I grossly underestimating the number of tons of cement needed, and the cost of mixing it up?
>

First you have to design a defense that works.

Naive attempts just result in the sea undermining your attempt
and washing away the supports to it. So first, you have to understand
just how badly the ocean wants to "re-form" the shoreline. There can be
pretty powerful currents across the face of a beach area, powerful enough
to knock you off your feet.

The first level of naivety, is "dredge and pile". That lasts for
about two years if you're lucky, and then it would have to be done again.

Building a fortress, right on top of sand, is useless. Sinking
piles to give the fortress a footing, well, would you want to build
a pile wall 150 feet deep ? What would that cost ?

These have been used, but I don't know how the longevity
of these compares, to the "fortress" concept. These are a
kind of "energy dissipation structure", for calming the water.
I suppose when these wear out, you can put down more of them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrapod_%28structure%29

Salt grasses can help reinforce sand dunes near the
sea, but the grass is intolerant of fools walking on it,
and it's pretty hard to get visitors to the beach to obey
the signage. We were taught this on a biology field trip.
And it's not clear that humans can control propagation of
the stuff, to "repair damage" to the salt grass. This is not
lawn-grass, it looks like a straw, hollow tubes that
live in sand. The sand is dry on top, and a few inches down,
the plant helps hold stuff together to preserve the moisture
in the sand it is in. This is a kind of plant that helps
control wind erosion.

Summary: Research is the first step. You only get so many
chances to fix this, as people hate it if you come back
looking for money a second time. That's what happens
to the "dredge and pile" people -- nobody will fund throwaway
efforts like that.

Paul

On 03 Sep 2023 at 15:40:41 BST, "Paul" <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:

> On 9/3/2023 7:52 AM, GB wrote:
>>
>> Hemsby is a coastal village in N Norfolk, where the cliffs are made of
>> sand/soft sandstone. It's being washed away by the sea at a rate of knots,
>> much to the upset of the locals, especially those with homes on top of the
>> cliffs! The government is refusing to pay for sea defences.
>>
>> Portland cement costs around £50-£100 a ton. There's unlimited sand, pebbles,
>> and salty water available for nothing. Salt water seems to be okay for making
>> concrete, as long as you don't put rebar in it.
>>
>> So, would it be feasible for the locals to make their own sea defences pretty
>> cheaply? Or, am I grossly underestimating the number of tons of cement
>> needed, and the cost of mixing it up?
>
> First you have to design a defense that works.
>
> Naive attempts just result in the sea undermining your attempt
> and washing away the supports to it. So first, you have to understand
> just how badly the ocean wants to "re-form" the shoreline. There can be
> pretty powerful currents across the face of a beach area, powerful enough
> to knock you off your feet.
>
> The first level of naivety, is "dredge and pile". That lasts for
> about two years if you're lucky, and then it would have to be done again.

The whole of the coastline in question is just a mixture of mud and sand most
of the way round the coast of East Anglia. In historical times, (presumably
more than 6k years ago), when England still had a land bridge to France, the
mouth of the Rhine was much further north and its delta deposited all this
useless shit that is now eroding. And it's going at quite a rate. There's at
least one village, the remains of which are now a mile offshore. Roads that
used to go somewhere now stop at a cliff, with perhaps 30 to 40 feet down to
the beach. These cliffs erode easily and risk being overtopped in a winter
storm in the North Sea, with the right tides, and a northerly wind piling the
sea up.

The idea of being able to prevent that strikes me as a bit naive, sad though
it may be for those living there.

--
If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.

Ernest Rutherford

On 03/09/2023 12:52, GB wrote:
>
> Hemsby is a coastal village in N Norfolk, where the cliffs are made of
> sand/soft sandstone. It's being washed away by the sea at a rate of
> knots, much to the upset of the locals, especially those with homes on
> top of the cliffs! The government is refusing to pay for sea defences.
>
> Portland cement costs around £50-£100 a ton. There's unlimited sand,
> pebbles, and salty water available for nothing. Salt water seems to be
> okay for making concrete, as long as you don't put rebar in it.
>
> So, would it be feasible for the locals to make their own sea defences
> pretty cheaply? Or, am I grossly underestimating the number of tons of
> cement needed, and the cost of mixing it up?
>
>

What is the underlying geology?
If sands and gravel down 50m then defences have to go down 50m or the
sea will surely undermine any defences just laid on sand and gravel.

--
Global sea level rise to 2100 from curve-fitted existing altimetry data
<http://diverse.4mg.com/slr.htm>

On 03/09/2023 15:40, Paul wrote:
> On 9/3/2023 7:52 AM, GB wrote:
>>
>> Hemsby is a coastal village in N Norfolk, where the cliffs are made of sand/soft sandstone. It's being washed away by the sea at a rate of knots, much to the upset of the locals, especially those with homes on top of the cliffs!  The government is refusing to pay for sea defences.
>>
>> Portland cement costs around £50-£100 a ton. There's unlimited sand, pebbles, and salty water available for nothing. Salt water seems to be okay for making concrete, as long as you don't put rebar in it.
>>
>> So, would it be feasible for the locals to make their own sea defences pretty cheaply? Or, am I grossly underestimating the number of tons of cement needed, and the cost of mixing it up?
>>
>
> First you have to design a defense that works.

+1
The problem with some coastal areas is that you try and put sea defences
in place and nature decides to do something else unexpected.

> Summary: Research is the first step. You only get so many
> chances to fix this, as people hate it if you come back
> looking for money a second time. That's what happens
> to the "dredge and pile" people -- nobody will fund throwaway
> efforts like that.

The first attempt in my area was to build tall sea walls above the
beaches but after a few decades or so the sea started eroding these
defences, despite being patched up piecemeal.

The solution adopted was to re-profile the beaches with a gentle slope,
with the slope ending at the top of the sea walls. For many months a
dredger collected sand/shingle from elsewhere around the coast and it
was pumped ashore where it was bulldozed into place.

Old method the sea hit the sea wall. New method the sea at high tide
normally only comes up to around 50 metres of the sea wall.

There are still some problems. High winds will now transport the sand up
the gentle beach slope and over the old wall depositing the sand on the
road that runs along the sea-front. In one place the water can come
under these sea defences and flood the road where it is a lot lower than
the water at high tide.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 03/09/2023 15:40, Paul wrote:
> Salt grasses can help reinforce sand dunes near the
> sea, but the grass is intolerant of fools walking on it,
> and it's pretty hard to get visitors to the beach to obey
> the signage.
In a place in suffolk whose name I will not reveal the top of the cliff
s a farm field that is planted with crops. Each year the acreage
diminishes. In the sea are old tree trunks a few tens of meters out in
the sea where the old wooded cliff top used to be.
Vegetation only stabilises the top foot or so.

--
It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.
Mark Twain

On 03/09/2023 16:18, Tim Streater wrote:
> On 03 Sep 2023 at 15:40:41 BST, "Paul" <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 9/3/2023 7:52 AM, GB wrote:
>>>
>>> Hemsby is a coastal village in N Norfolk, where the cliffs are made of
>>> sand/soft sandstone. It's being washed away by the sea at a rate of knots,
>>> much to the upset of the locals, especially those with homes on top of the
>>> cliffs! The government is refusing to pay for sea defences.
>>>
>>> Portland cement costs around £50-£100 a ton. There's unlimited sand, pebbles,
>>> and salty water available for nothing. Salt water seems to be okay for making
>>> concrete, as long as you don't put rebar in it.
>>>
>>> So, would it be feasible for the locals to make their own sea defences pretty
>>> cheaply? Or, am I grossly underestimating the number of tons of cement
>>> needed, and the cost of mixing it up?
>>
>> First you have to design a defense that works.
>>
>> Naive attempts just result in the sea undermining your attempt
>> and washing away the supports to it. So first, you have to understand
>> just how badly the ocean wants to "re-form" the shoreline. There can be
>> pretty powerful currents across the face of a beach area, powerful enough
>> to knock you off your feet.
>>
>> The first level of naivety, is "dredge and pile". That lasts for
>> about two years if you're lucky, and then it would have to be done again.
>
> The whole of the coastline in question is just a mixture of mud and sand most
> of the way round the coast of East Anglia. In historical times, (presumably
> more than 6k years ago), when England still had a land bridge to France, the
> mouth of the Rhine was much further north and its delta deposited all this
> useless shit that is now eroding. And it's going at quite a rate. There's at
> least one village, the remains of which are now a mile offshore. Roads that
> used to go somewhere now stop at a cliff, with perhaps 30 to 40 feet down to
> the beach. These cliffs erode easily and risk being overtopped in a winter
> storm in the North Sea, with the right tides, and a northerly wind piling the
> sea up.
>
> The idea of being able to prevent that strikes me as a bit naive, sad though
> it may be for those living there.
>
Yes. It would in fact be cheaper to build new houses somewhere else than
stop these being washed away.

--
It is the folly of too many to mistake the echo of a London coffee-house
for the voice of the kingdom.

Jonathan Swift

On 03/09/2023 16:44, N_Cook wrote:
> On 03/09/2023 12:52, GB wrote:
>>
>> Hemsby is a coastal village in N Norfolk, where the cliffs are made of
>> sand/soft sandstone. It's being washed away by the sea at a rate of
>> knots, much to the upset of the locals, especially those with homes on
>> top of the cliffs!  The government is refusing to pay for sea defences.
>>
>> Portland cement costs around £50-£100 a ton. There's unlimited sand,
>> pebbles, and salty water available for nothing. Salt water seems to be
>> okay for making concrete, as long as you don't put rebar in it.
>>
>> So, would it be feasible for the locals to make their own sea defences
>> pretty cheaply? Or, am I grossly underestimating the number of tons of
>> cement needed, and the cost of mixing it up?
>>
>>
>
> What is the underlying geology?
> If sands and gravel down 50m then defences have to go down 50m or the
> sea will surely undermine any defences just laid on sand and gravel.
>
>
Its alluvial deposits from either the ice age terminal moraine or the
old Rhine. Or both. It goes down meters. It isn't even sandstone. Its
just piled up sand. You can dig it with a spade.

https://geosuffolk.co.uk/images/SuffolkGeoCoast/Thorpenesscliff.jpg

is a typical example

--
It is the folly of too many to mistake the echo of a London coffee-house
for the voice of the kingdom.

Jonathan Swift

In message <ud43dt$1bq38$6@dont-email.me>, The Natural Philosopher
<tnp@invalid.invalid> writes
>On 03/09/2023 15:40, Paul wrote:
>> Salt grasses can help reinforce sand dunes near the
>> sea, but the grass is intolerant of fools walking on it,
>> and it's pretty hard to get visitors to the beach to obey
>> the signage.
>In a place in suffolk whose name I will not reveal the top of the cliff
>s a farm field that is planted with crops. Each year the acreage
>diminishes. In the sea are old tree trunks a few tens of meters out in
>the sea where the old wooded cliff top used to be.
>Vegetation only stabilises the top foot or so.

If it is where I am thinking, there was a cliff edge footpath in the
late 1950's and 2 concrete shelters.
My wife's uncle was in charge of a ww2 coastal anti-aircraft battery a
bit further along.
There is a novel written about living in the *Easternmost house*

--
Tim Lamb

On 04/09/2023 09:11, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 03/09/2023 16:18, Tim Streater wrote:
>> On 03 Sep 2023 at 15:40:41 BST, "Paul" <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On 9/3/2023 7:52 AM, GB wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hemsby is a coastal village in N Norfolk, where the cliffs are made of
>>>> sand/soft sandstone. It's being washed away by the sea at a rate of
>>>> knots,
>>>> much to the upset of the locals, especially those with homes on top
>>>> of the
>>>> cliffs! The government is refusing to pay for sea defences.
>>>>
>>>> Portland cement costs around £50-£100 a ton. There's unlimited sand,
>>>> pebbles,
>>>> and salty water available for nothing. Salt water seems to be okay
>>>> for making
>>>> concrete, as long as you don't put rebar in it.
>>>>
>>>> So, would it be feasible for the locals to make their own sea
>>>> defences pretty
>>>> cheaply? Or, am I grossly underestimating the number of tons of cement
>>>> needed, and the cost of mixing it up?
>>>
>>> First you have to design a defense that works.
>>>
>>> Naive attempts just result in the sea undermining your attempt
>>> and washing away the supports to it. So first, you have to understand
>>> just how badly the ocean wants to "re-form" the shoreline. There can be
>>> pretty powerful currents across the face of a beach area, powerful
>>> enough
>>> to knock you off your feet.
>>>
>>> The first level of naivety, is "dredge and pile". That lasts for
>>> about two years if you're lucky, and then it would have to be done
>>> again.
>>
>> The whole of the coastline in question is just a mixture of mud and
>> sand most
>> of the way round the coast of East Anglia. In historical times,
>> (presumably
>> more than 6k years ago), when England still had a land bridge to
>> France, the
>> mouth of the Rhine was much further north and its delta deposited all
>> this
>> useless shit that is now eroding. And it's going at quite a rate.
>> There's at
>> least one village, the remains of which are now a mile offshore. Roads
>> that
>> used to go somewhere now stop at a cliff, with perhaps 30 to 40 feet
>> down to
>> the beach. These cliffs erode easily and risk being overtopped in a
>> winter
>> storm in the North Sea, with the right tides, and a northerly wind
>> piling the
>> sea up.
>>
>> The idea of being able to prevent that strikes me as a bit naive, sad
>> though
>> it may be for those living there.
>>
> Yes. It would in fact be cheaper to build new houses somewhere else than
> stop these being washed away.
>

Or buy another BIBBY Stockholm and moor that off "The Marams"

On 06/09/2023 17:21, Andrew wrote:
> On 04/09/2023 09:11, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 03/09/2023 16:18, Tim Streater wrote:
>>> On 03 Sep 2023 at 15:40:41 BST, "Paul" <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 9/3/2023 7:52 AM, GB wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hemsby is a coastal village in N Norfolk, where the cliffs are made of
>>>>> sand/soft sandstone. It's being washed away by the sea at a rate of
>>>>> knots,
>>>>> much to the upset of the locals, especially those with homes on top
>>>>> of the
>>>>> cliffs! The government is refusing to pay for sea defences.
>>>>>
>>>>> Portland cement costs around £50-£100 a ton. There's unlimited
>>>>> sand, pebbles,
>>>>> and salty water available for nothing. Salt water seems to be okay
>>>>> for making
>>>>> concrete, as long as you don't put rebar in it.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, would it be feasible for the locals to make their own sea
>>>>> defences pretty
>>>>> cheaply? Or, am I grossly underestimating the number of tons of cement
>>>>> needed, and the cost of mixing it up?
>>>>
>>>> First you have to design a defense that works.
>>>>
>>>> Naive attempts just result in the sea undermining your attempt
>>>> and washing away the supports to it. So first, you have to understand
>>>> just how badly the ocean wants to "re-form" the shoreline. There can be
>>>> pretty powerful currents across the face of a beach area, powerful
>>>> enough
>>>> to knock you off your feet.
>>>>
>>>> The first level of naivety, is "dredge and pile". That lasts for
>>>> about two years if you're lucky, and then it would have to be done
>>>> again.
>>>
>>> The whole of the coastline in question is just a mixture of mud and
>>> sand most
>>> of the way round the coast of East Anglia. In historical times,
>>> (presumably
>>> more than 6k years ago), when England still had a land bridge to
>>> France, the
>>> mouth of the Rhine was much further north and its delta deposited all
>>> this
>>> useless shit that is now eroding. And it's going at quite a rate.
>>> There's at
>>> least one village, the remains of which are now a mile offshore.
>>> Roads that
>>> used to go somewhere now stop at a cliff, with perhaps 30 to 40 feet
>>> down to
>>> the beach. These cliffs erode easily and risk being overtopped in a
>>> winter
>>> storm in the North Sea, with the right tides, and a northerly wind
>>> piling the
>>> sea up.
>>>
>>> The idea of being able to prevent that strikes me as a bit naive, sad
>>> though
>>> it may be for those living there.
>>>
>> Yes. It would in fact be cheaper to build new houses somewhere else
>> than stop these being washed away.
>>
>
> Or buy another BIBBY Stockholm and moor that off "The Marams"

Yup.

--
“Some people like to travel by train because it combines the slowness of
a car with the cramped public exposure of 
an airplane.”

Dennis Miller