<https://www.facebook.com/photo/?
fbid=757356963067777&set=a.497566405713502>

Interesting reading if true.

Cheers

Dave R

--
AMD FX-6300 in GA-990X-Gaming SLI-CF running Windows 10 x64

On 11/09/2023 15:29, David wrote:
> <https://www.facebook.com/photo/?
> fbid=757356963067777&set=a.497566405713502>
>
> Interesting reading if true.

It is true. Manufacturers have a target to sell HPs vs. oil/gas boilers.
Not sure if that is a percentage, or a set number. But WB have been
particularly hit, as their HPs are not great, but their gas boilers are
good, so they sell far more gas boilers than (their shite) HPs.
Other Makers are not so bad, as they sell less gas boilers, and have
better HPs.
HP only Makers are laughing away at the gas boiler makers.

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On 11/09/2023 15:39, Alan Lee wrote:
> On 11/09/2023 15:29, David wrote:
>> <https://www.facebook.com/photo/?
>> fbid=757356963067777&set=a.497566405713502>
>>
>> Interesting reading if true.
>
> It is true. Manufacturers have a target to sell HPs vs. oil/gas boilers.
> Not sure if that is a percentage, or a set number. But WB have been
> particularly hit, as their HPs are not great, but their gas boilers are
> good, so they sell far more gas boilers than (their shite) HPs.
> Other Makers are not so bad, as they sell less gas boilers, and have
> better HPs.
> HP only Makers are laughing away at the gas boiler makers.
>

Wasn't there also a gas tax proposed to make electric only heating more
(cost) attractive. This may have been put on the back burner for a while
because of the massive price rises we have already seen.

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mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

What is that about its an ill wind that blows nobody any good?The whole
issue seems to me to be daft when you look at what New Zealand have done,
which seems to me to be evaluated the competition and only use the ones that
are reliable.
Brian

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"Alan Lee" <alan@darkroom.plus.com> wrote in message
news:udn8q9$137sv$2@dont-email.me...
> On 11/09/2023 15:29, David wrote:
>> <https://www.facebook.com/photo/?
>> fbid=757356963067777&set=a.497566405713502>
>>
>> Interesting reading if true.
>
> It is true. Manufacturers have a target to sell HPs vs. oil/gas boilers.
> Not sure if that is a percentage, or a set number. But WB have been
> particularly hit, as their HPs are not great, but their gas boilers are
> good, so they sell far more gas boilers than (their shite) HPs.
> Other Makers are not so bad, as they sell less gas boilers, and have
> better HPs.
> HP only Makers are laughing away at the gas boiler makers.
>
> --
> Remove the '+' and replace with 'plus' to reply by email
>

On 12/09/2023 14:07, Brian Gaff wrote:
> What is that about its an ill wind that blows nobody any good?The whole
> issue seems to me to be daft when you look at what New Zealand have done,
> which seems to me to be evaluated the competition and only use the ones that
> are reliable.

No idea, I was on a course a few weeks ago when this was brought up. I
assume it is a Government scheme to sell more heat pumps and reduce the
sale of fossil fuel boilers.
To be fair, the gas boiler makers have sat on their arses for years,
when it was quite clear the gas is going to run out, and there were
better ways to heat a home available.
The Air-con makers have got into the heating market by modifying their
product, most of the gas boiler makers didnt develop their own HP
product, it has been bought in, or just rebadged from other makes, and
they wonder why they arent selling many HPs, yet Nibe, Mitsubishi,
Daikin etc are doing really well developing their own existing technology.

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Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com> wrote:
> On 12/09/2023 14:07, Brian Gaff wrote:
> > What is that about its an ill wind that blows nobody any good?The whole
> > issue seems to me to be daft when you look at what New Zealand have done,
> > which seems to me to be evaluated the competition and only use the ones that
> > are reliable.
>
> No idea, I was on a course a few weeks ago when this was brought up. I
> assume it is a Government scheme to sell more heat pumps and reduce the
> sale of fossil fuel boilers.
> To be fair, the gas boiler makers have sat on their arses for years,
> when it was quite clear the gas is going to run out, and there were
> better ways to heat a home available.
> The Air-con makers have got into the heating market by modifying their
> product, most of the gas boiler makers didnt develop their own HP
> product, it has been bought in, or just rebadged from other makes, and
> they wonder why they arent selling many HPs, yet Nibe, Mitsubishi,
> Daikin etc are doing really well developing their own existing technology.

I have a Grant ASHP. It's made by Chofu of Japan and is a well designed
efficient unit, except... Grant are really oil boiler vendors and the
Grant-written instructions describe how to install it to look like an oil
boiler, which is the worst way you can install a heat pump.

Having suffered such a mess from my installer who was playing it by the
book, I found the Chofu instructions and rewired it the way they want
you to do it. It's much, much, better now.

Theo

On 12/09/2023 15:07, Theo wrote:
> I have a Grant ASHP. It's made by Chofu of Japan and is a well designed
> efficient unit, except... Grant are really oil boiler vendors and the
> Grant-written instructions describe how to install it to look like an oil
> boiler, which is the worst way you can install a heat pump.

Vaillant insist on the use of Glycol for warranty purposes, which is
toally stupid, as it reduces efficiency by 10%, adds cost, adds
servicing costs, and has only the slightest benenfit in very cold
weather where there has been a power cut.
Luckily, most Manufacturers seem to be sensible, and dont mandate the
use of glycol, and, some even say it isnt recommended.
Vaillant have a long history of fossil fuel boilers, it seems they
havent caught up yet, even though their HPs are well regarded.
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Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com> wrote:
> On 12/09/2023 15:07, Theo wrote:
> > I have a Grant ASHP. It's made by Chofu of Japan and is a well designed
> > efficient unit, except... Grant are really oil boiler vendors and the
> > Grant-written instructions describe how to install it to look like an oil
> > boiler, which is the worst way you can install a heat pump.
>
>
> Vaillant insist on the use of Glycol for warranty purposes, which is
> toally stupid, as it reduces efficiency by 10%, adds cost, adds
> servicing costs, and has only the slightest benenfit in very cold
> weather where there has been a power cut.

You need to either use glycol or fit anti-freeze valves. Otherwise the
outdoor unit is at risk of freezing up during a time it is unpowered (not
just a power cut, eg suppose there is an RCD trip while on holiday or
a tenant leaving pulls the breaker). I can well imagine that they don't
want to cover damage due to the outdoor unit freezing up, because that's a
lot of burst pipework, probably a burst heat exchanger too... it'll get
expensive fast.

Anti freeze valves are a better solution than glycol IMHO, since they'll
dump the water in the cooling loop if it approaches freezing, but depends on
having them at the lower point in the circuit - not always possible.

> Luckily, most Manufacturers seem to be sensible, and dont mandate the
> use of glycol, and, some even say it isnt recommended.

What do they recommend to prevent freezing up? I suppose they could word it
as 'if you don't take precautions then you're not covered for frost damage',
which would be fair enough.

Theo

On 12/09/2023 15:54, Alan Lee wrote:
> On 12/09/2023 15:07, Theo wrote:
>> I have a Grant ASHP.  It's made by Chofu of Japan and is a well designed
>> efficient unit, except...  Grant are really oil boiler vendors and the
>> Grant-written instructions describe how to install it to look like an oil
>> boiler, which is the worst way you can install a heat pump.
>
>
> Vaillant insist on the use of Glycol for warranty purposes, which is
> toally stupid, as it reduces efficiency by 10%, adds cost, adds
> servicing costs, and has only the slightest benenfit in very cold
> weather where there has been a power cut.
> Luckily, most Manufacturers seem to be sensible, and dont mandate the
> use of glycol, and, some even say it isnt recommended.
> Vaillant have a long history of fossil fuel boilers, it seems they
> havent caught up yet, even though their HPs are well regarded.

Can you cite the drop in efficiency of 10%?

A small amount of glycol can be the difference between creating a slush
or split pipes. Given the cost of replacing external pipework and
heat-exchangers I'm not surprised.

On 12/09/2023 17:02, Theo wrote:
>> Luckily, most Manufacturers seem to be sensible, and dont mandate the
>> use of glycol, and, some even say it isnt recommended.
> What do they recommend to prevent freezing up? I suppose they could word it
> as 'if you don't take precautions then you're not covered for frost damage',
> which would be fair enough.

Anti-freeze valves. Idiot proof, no need for annual checks on them, no
chemicals in the water.
There is only a small percentage of HPs that need glycol, a typical
family home is not one of them. It is only the outside unit that needs
protection, so if the AF valves are put on the out/input pipes, they
should be at the lowest point, so perfect for protecting the unit.
If the house is liable to freeze, like an unattended holiday home, then
they need to drain the water beforehand, or get some form of heating in
there to protect against frost.
The same applies for gas boilers too, they wont work without electric.

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On 12/09/2023 17:35, Fredxx wrote:
> Can you cite the drop in efficiency of 10%?

Just google it, you'll see it why it is a 10% loss in efficiency.
Here's a video all about it.
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bZcNourGpw>

> A small amount of glycol can be the difference between creating a slush
> or split pipes. Given the cost of replacing external pipework and
> heat-exchangers I'm not surprised.

Anti freeze valves. The Makers are finally waking up and realising
glycol isnt a good thing. Watch the vid, it explains it.

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