Has anyone tried replacing ceramic tap inserts without stopping the feed?

My sinks and basic small taps have in-line isolators that make the job
easy. But the bath doesn't. There are gate valves at the back of the
airing cupboard, but last time I tried to use them they seized up and I
had to replace them as well, a much bigger job.

I was thinking of getting a pad of softish rubber, and as the last
threads of the insert come away sliding the insert away and pressing the
pad over the hole. Then with the other hand, putting down the old insert
and picking up the new, then sliding it into place and taking up the
first few turns.

Obviously some water will escape, but I fancy most of it will go into the
bath. Both hot and cold are 2-metre head.

Probably best done after the morning draw of hot water so no danger of
scalding.

Will I get away with it?

Cheers,
nib

On 23/11/2023 12:00, nib wrote:

> Will I get away with it?

Get a pipe freezing kit for a tenner.

nib <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> wrote:
> Has anyone tried replacing ceramic tap inserts without stopping the feed?

I did it when the valve developed a habit of falling out when turning on the
tap. Water started gushing out, so I quickly screwed the insert back in.
Next time I had the new valve ready so I screwed the new one in place of the
old.

It helps it was on an instant water heater so the pressure was limited, and
all the water went straight into the basin - so (aside from the water bill)
it could have gushed all day with no problems.

I think I'd try opening other taps to reduce the pressure at the tap in
question. If you can get the pressure down so it's not going to gush much
even when fully open then it might be easier.

(the water for running the tap full for an hour probably costs you a quid or
two depending on flow rate, so it's not implausible to do this)

> I was thinking of getting a pad of softish rubber, and as the last
> threads of the insert come away sliding the insert away and pressing the
> pad over the hole. Then with the other hand, putting down the old insert
> and picking up the new, then sliding it into place and taking up the
> first few turns.

Not sure what you mean by 'sliding', mine are screw in:
https://www.toolstation.com/made4trade-14-turn-ceramic-tap-glands/p66307

> Probably best done after the morning draw of hot water so no danger of
> scalding.

Just turn off the water heating so the last user runs it cold.

Theo

On Thu, 23 Nov 2023 12:00:07 -0000 (UTC), nib
<news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> wrote:

>Has anyone tried replacing ceramic tap inserts without stopping the feed?
>
>My sinks and basic small taps have in-line isolators that make the job
>easy. But the bath doesn't. There are gate valves at the back of the
>airing cupboard, but last time I tried to use them they seized up and I
>had to replace them as well, a much bigger job.
>
>I was thinking of getting a pad of softish rubber, and as the last
>threads of the insert come away sliding the insert away and pressing the
>pad over the hole. Then with the other hand, putting down the old insert
>and picking up the new, then sliding it into place and taking up the
>first few turns.
>
>Obviously some water will escape, but I fancy most of it will go into the
>bath. Both hot and cold are 2-metre head.
>
>Probably best done after the morning draw of hot water so no danger of
>scalding.
>
>Will I get away with it?
>
>Cheers,
>nib

Can't you just freeze the pipe?
https://www.screwfix.com/c/tools/pipe-freezing/cat9530001

--
Chris

nib <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> wrote:
> Has anyone tried replacing ceramic tap inserts without stopping the feed?
>
> My sinks and basic small taps have in-line isolators that make the job
> easy. But the bath doesn't. There are gate valves at the back of the
> airing cupboard, but last time I tried to use them they seized up and I
> had to replace them as well, a much bigger job.
>
> I was thinking of getting a pad of softish rubber, and as the last
> threads of the insert come away sliding the insert away and pressing the
> pad over the hole. Then with the other hand, putting down the old insert
> and picking up the new, then sliding it into place and taking up the
> first few turns.
>
> Obviously some water will escape, but I fancy most of it will go into the
> bath. Both hot and cold are 2-metre head.
>
> Probably best done after the morning draw of hot water so no danger of
> scalding.
>
> Will I get away with it?
>
> Cheers,
> nib
>

Go into the loft and either tie up the ball cock or use rubber bungs to
bung the outlet of the tank, this will stop the water filling the hot water
cistern. Drain off the hot water from the lowest tap in the system and you
will then be able to replace the inserts in the hot taps. Because you have
stopped the cold water tank filling the hot cylinder and the take off from
the cylinder is at the top you will still have a cylinder of hot water
available.

On 23/11/2023 12:00, nib wrote:
> Has anyone tried replacing ceramic tap inserts without stopping the feed?
>
> My sinks and basic small taps have in-line isolators that make the job
> easy. But the bath doesn't. There are gate valves at the back of the
> airing cupboard, but last time I tried to use them they seized up and I
> had to replace them as well, a much bigger job.
>
> I was thinking of getting a pad of softish rubber, and as the last
> threads of the insert come away sliding the insert away and pressing the
> pad over the hole. Then with the other hand, putting down the old insert
> and picking up the new, then sliding it into place and taking up the
> first few turns.
>
> Obviously some water will escape, but I fancy most of it will go into the
> bath. Both hot and cold are 2-metre head.

So, reading between the lines - both gravity fed and not mains?

If so, then it is easy - reach into the cold tank in the loft and put a
bung[1] in the outlet. That will stop flow to both cold and hot taps on
the bath. Note that if there is a shower, they sometimes add an extra
cold outlet on the tank placed a bit lower than the one feeding the hot
cylinder - that way you can't run out of cold water and get scalded.

You should then get very little spillage.

[1] Have a look at this page, it is primarily about CH systems - but
much of it applies to gravity fed hot water systems as well.

https://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Central_Heating_maintenance_without_draining_down#Vented_systems

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

On 23/11/2023 13:44, John Rumm wrote:
> On 23/11/2023 12:00, nib wrote:
>> Has anyone tried replacing ceramic tap inserts without stopping the feed?
>>
>> My sinks and basic small taps have in-line isolators that make the job
>> easy. But the bath doesn't. There are gate valves at the back of the
>> airing cupboard, but last time I tried to use them they seized up and I
>> had to replace them as well, a much bigger job.
>>
>> I was thinking of getting a pad of softish rubber, and as the last
>> threads of the insert come away sliding the insert away and pressing the
>> pad over the hole. Then with the other hand, putting down the old insert
>> and picking up the new, then sliding it into place and taking up the
>> first few turns.
>>
>> Obviously some water will escape, but I fancy most of it will go into the
>> bath. Both hot and cold are 2-metre head.
>
> So, reading between the lines - both gravity fed and not mains?
>
> If so, then it is easy - reach into the cold tank in the loft and put a
> bung[1] in the outlet. That will stop flow to both cold and hot taps on
> the bath. Note that if there is a shower, they sometimes add an extra
> cold outlet on the tank placed a bit lower than the one feeding the hot
> cylinder - that way you can't run out of cold water and get scalded.
>
> You should then get very little spillage.
>
> [1] Have a look at this page, it is primarily about CH systems - but
> much of it applies to gravity fed hot water systems as well.
>
> https://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Central_Heating_maintenance_without_draining_down#Vented_systems

Should also have said - block the vent pipe - that should also stop the
water in the pipe escaping.

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

On 23/11/2023 12:00, nib wrote:
> Has anyone tried replacing ceramic tap inserts without stopping the feed?
>
> My sinks and basic small taps have in-line isolators that make the job
> easy. But the bath doesn't. There are gate valves at the back of the
> airing cupboard, but last time I tried to use them they seized up and I
> had to replace them as well, a much bigger job.
>
> I was thinking of getting a pad of softish rubber, and as the last
> threads of the insert come away sliding the insert away and pressing the
> pad over the hole. Then with the other hand, putting down the old insert
> and picking up the new, then sliding it into place and taking up the
> first few turns.
>
> Obviously some water will escape, but I fancy most of it will go into the
> bath. Both hot and cold are 2-metre head.
>
> Probably best done after the morning draw of hot water so no danger of
> scalding.
>
> Will I get away with it?
>
No need bob. Simply cut off the whole house water supply and if you have
a gravity fed supply hook up the ball valve. Then runs the taps you want
to work on until they stop

> Cheers,
> nib

--
"A point of view can be a dangerous luxury when substituted for insight
and understanding".

Marshall McLuhan

Might not work on the hot pipe.
Brian

--

--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
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Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"GB" <NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid> wrote in message
news:ujnhmt$1rbbr$1@dont-email.me...
> On 23/11/2023 12:00, nib wrote:
>
>> Will I get away with it?
>
> Get a pipe freezing kit for a tenner.
>
>

On 23/11/2023 12:00, nib wrote:
> Has anyone tried replacing ceramic tap inserts without stopping the feed?

Yes, really easy to do. Ease off the tap insert you are changing, until
it starts to leak out slightly, turn on all other taps in the house,
take off old insert with one hand, fit new insert with other hand. Keep
a large towel nearby for leaks.
The biggest problem you'll have is getting the right size insert. There
are many types.

--
Remove the '+' and replace with 'plus' to reply by email

On 30/11/2023 09:32, Brian Gaff wrote:
> Might not work on the hot pipe.

If the water is running, no pipe freezing kit will work on either hot or
cold.

If the water's not running, there's usually no real difference between
the hot and cold pipes.

Obviously, turning the water off at source is better. For a start, it
saves going out and buying a freezing kit!

> Brian
>

On 30/11/2023 09:47, Alan Lee wrote:
> On 23/11/2023 12:00, nib wrote:
>> Has anyone tried replacing ceramic tap inserts without stopping the feed?
>
> Yes, really easy to do. Ease off the tap insert you are changing, until
> it starts to leak out slightly, turn on all other taps in the house,
> take off old insert with one hand, fit new insert with other hand. Keep
> a large towel nearby for leaks.
> The biggest problem you'll have is getting the right size insert. There
> are many types.
>

You probably need to remove the insert to establish size and number of
splines to get a reasonably priced replacement. My very limited
experience with a replacement was the item from the tap manufacturer was
almost the same price as a new tap whereas a generic replacement was
1/3rd the price.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 30/11/2023 11:59, alan_m wrote:
> On 30/11/2023 09:47, Alan Lee wrote:
>> On 23/11/2023 12:00, nib wrote:
>>> Has anyone tried replacing ceramic tap inserts without stopping the
>>> feed?
>>
>> Yes, really easy to do. Ease off the tap insert you are changing,
>> until it starts to leak out slightly, turn on all other taps in the
>> house, take off old insert with one hand, fit new insert with other
>> hand. Keep a large towel nearby for leaks.
>> The biggest problem you'll have is getting the right size insert.
>> There are many types.
>>
>
> You probably need to remove the insert to establish size and number of
> splines to get a reasonably priced replacement.  My very limited
> experience with a replacement was the item from the tap manufacturer was
> almost the same price as a new tap  whereas a generic replacement was
> 1/3rd the price.

A tap reviver kit will work perfectly well on a temporary basis, whilst
you source a new ceramic insert.

https://www.screwfix.com/p/swirl-bathroom-basin-contract-tap-reviver-kit/12204

Or, in my case, the reviver kit works so well that I have never got
round to sourcing the replacement ceramic insert.

On 30/11/2023 11:47, GB wrote:
> On 30/11/2023 09:32, Brian Gaff wrote:
>> Might not work on the hot pipe.
>
> If the water is running, no pipe freezing kit will work on either hot or
> cold.
>
> If the water's not running, there's usually no real difference between
> the hot and cold pipes.
>
> Obviously, turning the water off at source is better. For a start, it
> saves going out and buying a freezing kit!
>
Realistically 99% of all stop valves will be stuck or leaking anyway, so
one always turns off the mains.

What happens thereafter is modified by the plumbing layout

With a mains pressure tank, simply turning on the hot water tap under
repair will work (unless someone flushes a bog and lets air into the
system). With a gravity tank tying up the ball valve is indicated, with
similar caveats.

You need to maintain a vacuum in a mains pressure system - any hot tap
opened will suck in air and spit out water. And that goes for high taps
in the cold feed also.

Ultimately its not hard to remove sufficent water flow from the system
to make repairs reasonably easy.

>
>>   Brian
>>
>

--
“But what a weak barrier is truth when it stands in the way of an
hypothesis!”

Mary Wollstonecraft

On Thu, 30 Nov 2023 11:59:33 +0000, alan_m wrote:

> On 30/11/2023 09:47, Alan Lee wrote:
>> On 23/11/2023 12:00, nib wrote:
>>> Has anyone tried replacing ceramic tap inserts without stopping the
>>> feed?
>>
>> Yes, really easy to do. Ease off the tap insert you are changing, until
>> it starts to leak out slightly, turn on all other taps in the house,
>> take off old insert with one hand, fit new insert with other hand. Keep
>> a large towel nearby for leaks.
>> The biggest problem you'll have is getting the right size insert. There
>> are many types.
>>
>>
> You probably need to remove the insert to establish size and number of
> splines to get a reasonably priced replacement. My very limited
> experience with a replacement was the item from the tap manufacturer was
> almost the same price as a new tap whereas a generic replacement was
> 1/3rd the price.

I checked all the upper part dimensions after just getting the handle off
and it looked in every way like a fairly common part, so I bought that
(pair). It also looks like the right internal depth too on offering it up
to the outside of the casting, so I'll give it 90% that my spare will fit.

Some urgency has gone meanwhile. The cold was oozing out through the
spindle seal while open but that seems to have lessened, and the dripping
(no idea which side) is not getting worse - yet.

Thanks for all advice so far.

nib

On 30/11/2023 12:46, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 30/11/2023 11:47, GB wrote:
>> On 30/11/2023 09:32, Brian Gaff wrote:
>>> Might not work on the hot pipe.
>>
>> If the water is running, no pipe freezing kit will work on either hot
>> or cold.
>>
>> If the water's not running, there's usually no real difference between
>> the hot and cold pipes.
>>
>> Obviously, turning the water off at source is better. For a start, it
>> saves going out and buying a freezing kit!
>>
> Realistically 99% of all stop valves will be stuck or leaking anyway, so
> one always turns off the mains.
>
> What happens thereafter is modified by the plumbing layout
>
> With a mains pressure tank, simply turning on the hot water tap under
> repair will work (unless someone flushes a bog and lets air into the
> system). With a gravity tank tying up the ball valve is indicated, with
> similar caveats.
>
> You need to maintain a vacuum in a mains pressure system - any hot tap
> opened will suck in air and spit out water. And that goes for high taps
> in the cold feed also.

A vacuum is very dangerous when applied to a tank, and I can never
recommend it after seeing a tank collapse because the expansion and feed
pipe had frozen in cold weather.

> Ultimately its not hard to remove sufficent water flow from the system
> to make repairs reasonably easy.

Agreed, or place service valves in strategic places.

On 30/11/2023 12:46, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> Realistically 99% of all stop valves will be stuck or leaking anyway, so
> one always turns off the mains.

I just gave up and had a man in to fix our shower flow. The stop valves
did indeed leak (gate valves) but by leaving other taps on there was no
flow to the shower.

There was also no hot water left by the time he'd finished to test it.
The test failed, and he had to come back another day to fix it. At his
expense this time...

I'll never ever EVER again get a shower with valves concealed in the
wall. They look nice, they're easy to clean, and a ******** to fix. The
first plumber made a sensible decision - he wouldn't touch it.

Andy

On 30/11/2023 17:06, Vir Campestris wrote:
> On 30/11/2023 12:46, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> Realistically 99% of all stop valves will be stuck or leaking anyway,
>> so one always turns off the mains.
>
> I just gave up and had a man in to fix our shower flow. The stop valves
> did indeed leak (gate valves) but by leaving other taps on there was no
> flow to the shower.
>
> There was also no hot water left by the time he'd finished to test it.
> The test failed, and he had to come back another day to fix it. At his
> expense this time...
>
> I'll never ever EVER again get a shower with valves concealed in the
> wall. They look nice, they're easy to clean, and a ******** to fix. The
> first plumber made a sensible decision - he wouldn't touch it.
>
> Andy

I *ALWAYS* insist on bar mixers. I get sneery looks from salespeople who
think what a yokel I must be. However, an entire new mixer costs £100,
and they take 5 minutes to fit.

Similarly with bath mixers. Get one with fixed legs like this:
https://www.victorianplumbing.co.uk/apollo-bath-filler-chrome

On 30/11/2023 17:06, Vir Campestris wrote:
> On 30/11/2023 12:46, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> Realistically 99% of all stop valves will be stuck or leaking anyway,
>> so one always turns off the mains.
>
> I just gave up and had a man in to fix our shower flow. The stop valves
> did indeed leak (gate valves) but by leaving other taps on there was no
> flow to the shower.
>
> There was also no hot water left by the time he'd finished to test it.
> The test failed, and he had to come back another day to fix it. At his
> expense this time...
>
> I'll never ever EVER again get a shower with valves concealed in the
> wall. They look nice, they're easy to clean, and a ******** to fix. The
> first plumber made a sensible decision - he wouldn't touch it.
>
> Andy

I *ALWAYS* insist on bar mixers. I get sneery looks from salespeople who
think what a yokel I must be. However, an entire new mixer costs £100,
and they take 5 minutes to fit.

Similarly with bath mixers. Get one with fixed legs like this:
https://www.victorianplumbing.co.uk/apollo-bath-filler-chrome

On 30/11/2023 17:20, GB wrote:

>
> Similarly with bath mixers. Get one with fixed legs like this:
> https://www.victorianplumbing.co.uk/apollo-bath-filler-chrome
>
But you still get people who box in the sides of the bath and then tile
over giving no easy access to the underside of the taps without
destroying much of their handiwork.

or the same person who tiled to the low level toilet system and then
used a ton of grout to firmly fix the back of the system and lid to the
wall. :)

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 30/11/2023 17:06, Vir Campestris wrote:
> On 30/11/2023 12:46, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> Realistically 99% of all stop valves will be stuck or leaking anyway,
>> so one always turns off the mains.
>
> I just gave up and had a man in to fix our shower flow. The stop valves
> did indeed leak (gate valves) but by leaving other taps on there was no
> flow to the shower.
>
> There was also no hot water left by the time he'd finished to test it.
> The test failed, and he had to come back another day to fix it. At his
> expense this time...
>
> I'll never ever EVER again get a shower with valves concealed in the
> wall. They look nice, they're easy to clean, and a ******** to fix. The
> first plumber made a sensible decision - he wouldn't touch it.
>
> Andy

Ive got 4 in wall mixers. All 20 years old. I suspect one has failed
slightly as its thermostatic action is no longer effective. The rest are
fine. I have full house softened water though. That makes a mighty
difference.

Anyway, in three cases I can remove plasterboard from the wall on the
far side for access to the units if needs be.

The bar mixers are essentially the same, except the pipes come trough
the finished wall. In practice removing the cover plate of in-wall
mixers gives identical access.

--
“Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere,
diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.”
― Groucho Marx