Rather annoyed with myself for not snapping up a 16Gb mini PC at £169
yesterday on Amazon. Now £239.

However it did tip me towards a decision in principle to replace the aging
(15+ years old) desktop PC I run as a media server with a simple fanless
mini PC.

Obviously I'll put linux on it (probably Ubuntu server as I won't need a
GUI and I've been running it at work for 2 years).

Anything I get will come with Win11. Would the group downgrade that to W10
before installing Linux ?

My reasoning being on the one day of the year I may need a windows
machine, it's better to have a halfway decent version.

Ideally I'd package the existing install into a VM and use the 16Gb PC to
run it.

Jethro_uk wrote:

> Rather annoyed with myself for not snapping up a 16Gb mini PC at £169
> yesterday on Amazon. Now £239.

Do they repeat black friday deals for cyber monday?

> However it did tip me towards a decision in principle to replace the aging
> (15+ years old) desktop PC I run as a media server with a simple fanless
> mini PC.
>
> Obviously I'll put linux on it (probably Ubuntu server as I won't need a
> GUI and I've been running it at work for 2 years).
>
> Anything I get will come with Win11. Would the group downgrade that to W10
> before installing Linux ?

After you move the start menu to the left corner, there's not that much
difference between Win10/Win11, I'd leave it, or you lose a few years of
support.

> My reasoning being on the one day of the year I may need a windows
> machine, it's better to have a halfway decent version.
>
> Ideally I'd package the existing install into a VM and use the 16Gb PC to
> run it.

On Sat, 25 Nov 2023 15:14:50 +0000, Andy Burns wrote:

> Jethro_uk wrote:
>
>> Rather annoyed with myself for not snapping up a 16Gb mini PC at £169
>> yesterday on Amazon. Now £239.
>
> Do they repeat black friday deals for cyber monday?
>
>> However it did tip me towards a decision in principle to replace the
>> aging (15+ years old) desktop PC I run as a media server with a simple
>> fanless mini PC.
>>
>> Obviously I'll put linux on it (probably Ubuntu server as I won't need
>> a GUI and I've been running it at work for 2 years).
>>
>> Anything I get will come with Win11. Would the group downgrade that to
>> W10 before installing Linux ?
>
> After you move the start menu to the left corner, there's not that much
> difference between Win10/Win11, I'd leave it, or you lose a few years of
> support.

I wouldn't be buying it for any support. And what value is MS "support"
anyway ? Having *a* version of Windows would be for that one time you
encounter a situation where you need to run a real executable. And even
then WINE might just handle it.

On 25/11/2023 14:39, Jethro_uk wrote:
> Rather annoyed with myself for not snapping up a 16Gb mini PC at £169
> yesterday on Amazon. Now £239.
>
> However it did tip me towards a decision in principle to replace the aging
> (15+ years old) desktop PC I run as a media server with a simple fanless
> mini PC.
>
> Obviously I'll put linux on it (probably Ubuntu server as I won't need a
> GUI and I've been running it at work for 2 years).
>
> Anything I get will come with Win11. Would the group downgrade that to W10
> before installing Linux ?
>
I'd wipe it off. Most people do that with turds

> My reasoning being on the one day of the year I may need a windows
> machine, it's better to have a halfway decent version.
>
> Ideally I'd package the existing install into a VM and use the 16Gb PC to
> run it.
Well that if you actually need it...is the best option

I recommend 'laptops direct' by the way. Never let me down on fair
quality for price esp. on refurbed kit

I am doing similar, but what is going in is a Raspberry Pi 4B with
4.25TB of SSD. All less than 15W.

And fuck windows.

--
There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale
returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact.

Mark Twain

Jethro_uk wrote:

> what value is MS "support"

At a minimum, the value is from them fixing exploitable bugs.

Jethro_uk <jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com> wrote:
> Anything I get will come with Win11. Would the group downgrade that to W10
> before installing Linux ?

It's better to install Linux over Windows than Windows over Linux - Linux
knows how to play nicely with Windows, while Windows will trample over Linux
if you install it second.

Although I have a machine that was supplied with Windows which I
repartitioned and installed Linux, occasionally booting Windows. One day
Windows did its updates and resolutely refused to boot thereafter, no matter
how many 'repair' options I selected. So that was the end of Windows
dual-booting.

Re W10/W11, install either from scratch, so you wipe out any adware/spyware
that the vendor ships in the default OS image.

> My reasoning being on the one day of the year I may need a windows
> machine, it's better to have a halfway decent version.
>
> Ideally I'd package the existing install into a VM and use the 16Gb PC to
> run it.

I'd imagine you can do most of what you want with a Windows VM from inside
Linux, but installing it on a partition like that does mean you can boot it
on the metal if you want to. The VM and the metal will use different
drivers, but I think Windows is better these days in terms of booting the
same image on different hardware.

The downside of having a Windows partition rather than a Windows file is
it's more awkward to backup/snapshot/etc; one nice thing about a VM is you
can take a snapshot, install $dodgy_software, try it out, then rollback to
the snapshot. That's harder to do on the metal (yes you can use System
Restore points for the Windows files, but not completely blow away the
entire disc and go back to how it was before).

Theo

On Sat, 25 Nov 2023 16:32:58 +0000, Andy Burns wrote:

> Jethro_uk wrote:
>
>> what value is MS "support"
>
> At a minimum, the value is from them fixing exploitable bugs.

But if you aren't running Windows anyway ?

Jethro_uk <jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 25 Nov 2023 16:32:58 +0000, Andy Burns wrote:
>
> > Jethro_uk wrote:
> >
> >> what value is MS "support"
> >
> > At a minimum, the value is from them fixing exploitable bugs.
>
> But if you aren't running Windows anyway ?

There is, I suppose, a certain advantage to being out of support. On the
one hand, you're more exposed to vulnerabilities, especially if browsing,
downloading software, etc. On the other, your VM doesn't spend half an hour
downloading updates every time you start it. Although I think the state of
Zen where it doesn't do that won't kick in for a long while, since it'll
still download updates for Windows Defender and similar for a good few
years. So enlightenment may have to wait.

Theo

Jethro_uk wrote:

> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> Jethro_uk wrote:
>>
>>> what value is MS "support"
>>
>> At a minimum, the value is from them fixing exploitable bugs.
>
> But if you aren't running Windows anyway ?
You said you might fire it up occasionally, do you want to be vulnerable
if/when you do?

On 25/11/2023 14:39, Jethro_uk wrote:
> Rather annoyed with myself for not snapping up a 16Gb mini PC at £169
> yesterday on Amazon. Now £239.
>
> However it did tip me towards a decision in principle to replace the aging
> (15+ years old) desktop PC I run as a media server with a simple fanless
> mini PC.
>
> Obviously I'll put linux on it (probably Ubuntu server as I won't need a
> GUI and I've been running it at work for 2 years).
>
> Anything I get will come with Win11. Would the group downgrade that to W10
> before installing Linux ?
>
> My reasoning being on the one day of the year I may need a windows
> machine, it's better to have a halfway decent version.
>
> Ideally I'd package the existing install into a VM and use the 16Gb PC to
> run it.
> Is it worth the effort to install W10 and make a VM image from it and
then install your favourite Linux and the install the Win10 image in the
VM? Do you have something that definitely only runs on W10?

If not, accept that Win11 is visually horrific and unpleasant to use and
make a VM image of what is installed and use that if you need a Windows
system. As you wont use it every day it wont matter it's horrible but
will remind you why you don't use it so you can shut down your Windows
VM ASAP.

On Sat, 25 Nov 2023 14:39:47 -0000 (UTC)
Jethro_uk <jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com> wrote:

>
> Obviously I'll put linux on it (probably Ubuntu server as I won't
> need a GUI and I've been running it at work for 2 years).
>

Why Ubuntu? If you're not running a GUI, then it really won't be much
different to the underlying Debian. There's probably more difference
between Ubuntu versions that between a GUI-less Ubuntu and Debian. And
Debian Stable is guaranteed upgradable to later versions indefinitely.

Reinstalling a server is a pain, it's not just a matter of throwing a
few applications on a base workstation installation. Upgrading isn't
always trivial, but it's definitely less work.

--
Joe

On 25/11/2023 21:17, Joe wrote:
> On Sat, 25 Nov 2023 14:39:47 -0000 (UTC)
> Jethro_uk <jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com> wrote:
>
>
>>
>> Obviously I'll put linux on it (probably Ubuntu server as I won't
>> need a GUI and I've been running it at work for 2 years).
>>
>
> Why Ubuntu? If you're not running a GUI, then it really won't be much
> different to the underlying Debian. There's probably more difference
> between Ubuntu versions that between a GUI-less Ubuntu and Debian. And
> Debian Stable is guaranteed upgradable to later versions indefinitely.
>
> Reinstalling a server is a pain, it's not just a matter of throwing a
> few applications on a base workstation installation. Upgrading isn't
> always trivial, but it's definitely less work.
>

I've upgraded Debian 9 on x86_64 to 10 to 11 to 12 on a couple of
headless VPS instances and Debian 10 to 11 to 12 on my Linux desktop
without problems. I've updated Debian 11 to 12 on a pair of laptops as
well.

The ability to keep upgrading versions is a big plus for me. YMMV

On 25/11/2023 14:39, Jethro_uk wrote:
> Rather annoyed with myself for not snapping up a 16Gb mini PC at £169
> yesterday on Amazon. Now £239.
>
> However it did tip me towards a decision in principle to replace the aging
> (15+ years old) desktop PC I run as a media server with a simple fanless
> mini PC.
>
> Obviously I'll put linux on it (probably Ubuntu server as I won't need a
> GUI and I've been running it at work for 2 years).
>
> Anything I get will come with Win11. Would the group downgrade that to W10
> before installing Linux ?

10 probably won't activate on an 11 key, and 10 will stop receiving
security fixes etc in 2025, so I would probably stay with 11 at this point.

> My reasoning being on the one day of the year I may need a windows
> machine, it's better to have a halfway decent version.
>
> Ideally I'd package the existing install into a VM and use the 16Gb PC to
> run it.

If you enable Hyper-V[1] on win 11, then you are kind of doing that
anyway (since hyper-v is a type 1 hypervisor, it runs on bare metal and
loads before windows - windows then runs as a client OS)

[1] included with windows unless it is a "home" version.

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

On 25/11/2023 17:32, Andy Burns wrote:
> Jethro_uk wrote:
>
>> Andy Burns wrote:
>>
>>> Jethro_uk wrote:
>>>
>>>> what value is MS "support"
>>>
>>> At a minimum, the value is from them fixing exploitable bugs.
>>
>> But if you aren't running Windows anyway ?
> You said you might fire it up occasionally, do you want to be vulnerable
> if/when you do?

Ive got windows XP in a VM. The only time its ever connected to the
internet was when Barclays made linux browsers unusable.

--
"A point of view can be a dangerous luxury when substituted for insight
and understanding".

Marshall McLuhan

On 25/11/2023 21:17, Joe wrote:
> On Sat, 25 Nov 2023 14:39:47 -0000 (UTC)
> Jethro_uk <jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com> wrote:
>
>
>>
>> Obviously I'll put linux on it (probably Ubuntu server as I won't
>> need a GUI and I've been running it at work for 2 years).
>>
>
> Why Ubuntu? If you're not running a GUI, then it really won't be much
> different to the underlying Debian. There's probably more difference
> between Ubuntu versions that between a GUI-less Ubuntu and Debian. And
> Debian Stable is guaranteed upgradable to later versions indefinitely.
>
Debian stable is years out of date

> Reinstalling a server is a pain, it's not just a matter of throwing a
> few applications on a base workstation installation. Upgrading isn't
> always trivial, but it's definitely less work.
>

--
Climate is what you expect but weather is what you get.
Mark Twain

On Sun, 26 Nov 2023 08:42:51 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> On 25/11/2023 17:32, Andy Burns wrote:
>> Jethro_uk wrote:
>>
>>> Andy Burns wrote:
>>>
>>>> Jethro_uk wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> what value is MS "support"
>>>>
>>>> At a minimum, the value is from them fixing exploitable bugs.
>>>
>>> But if you aren't running Windows anyway ?
>> You said you might fire it up occasionally, do you want to be
>> vulnerable if/when you do?
>
> Ive got windows XP in a VM. The only time its ever connected to the
> internet was when Barclays made linux browsers unusable.

I currently have a Win7 laptop with a buggered screen I can NoMachine
into if I really need a Windows box. And also an XP VM (somewhere ...).

On Sun, 26 Nov 2023 08:44:04 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> On 25/11/2023 21:17, Joe wrote:
>> On Sat, 25 Nov 2023 14:39:47 -0000 (UTC)
>> Jethro_uk <jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> Obviously I'll put linux on it (probably Ubuntu server as I won't need
>>> a GUI and I've been running it at work for 2 years).
>>>
>>>
>> Why Ubuntu? If you're not running a GUI, then it really won't be much
>> different to the underlying Debian. There's probably more difference
>> between Ubuntu versions that between a GUI-less Ubuntu and Debian. And
>> Debian Stable is guaranteed upgradable to later versions indefinitely.
>>
> Debian stable is years out of date

Isn't that a feature ?

On Sun, 26 Nov 2023 00:39:13 +0000, John Rumm wrote:

> On 25/11/2023 14:39, Jethro_uk wrote:
>> Rather annoyed with myself for not snapping up a 16Gb mini PC at £169
>> yesterday on Amazon. Now £239.
>>
>> However it did tip me towards a decision in principle to replace the
>> aging (15+ years old) desktop PC I run as a media server with a simple
>> fanless mini PC.
>>
>> Obviously I'll put linux on it (probably Ubuntu server as I won't need
>> a GUI and I've been running it at work for 2 years).
>>
>> Anything I get will come with Win11. Would the group downgrade that to
>> W10 before installing Linux ?
>
> 10 probably won't activate on an 11 key, and 10 will stop receiving
> security fixes etc in 2025, so I would probably stay with 11 at this
> point.
>
>> My reasoning being on the one day of the year I may need a windows
>> machine, it's better to have a halfway decent version.
>>
>> Ideally I'd package the existing install into a VM and use the 16Gb PC
>> to run it.
>
> If you enable Hyper-V[1] on win 11, then you are kind of doing that
> anyway (since hyper-v is a type 1 hypervisor, it runs on bare metal and
> loads before windows - windows then runs as a client OS)
>
> [1] included with windows unless it is a "home" version.

Home is the default retail version.

On 25/11/2023 14:39, Jethro_uk wrote:
> Rather annoyed with myself for not snapping up a 16Gb mini PC at £169
> yesterday on Amazon. Now £239.
>
> However it did tip me towards a decision in principle to replace the aging
> (15+ years old) desktop PC I run as a media server with a simple fanless
> mini PC.
>
> Obviously I'll put linux on it (probably Ubuntu server as I won't need a
> GUI and I've been running it at work for 2 years).
>
> Anything I get will come with Win11. Would the group downgrade that to W10
> before installing Linux ?
>
> My reasoning being on the one day of the year I may need a windows
> machine, it's better to have a halfway decent version.

Personally I like Windows/11. I would leave as is...

>
> Ideally I'd package the existing install into a VM and use the 16Gb PC to
> run it.

On 26/11/2023 09:58, Jethro_uk wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Nov 2023 08:44:04 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> On 25/11/2023 21:17, Joe wrote:
>>> On Sat, 25 Nov 2023 14:39:47 -0000 (UTC)
>>> Jethro_uk <jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Obviously I'll put linux on it (probably Ubuntu server as I won't need
>>>> a GUI and I've been running it at work for 2 years).
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Why Ubuntu? If you're not running a GUI, then it really won't be much
>>> different to the underlying Debian. There's probably more difference
>>> between Ubuntu versions that between a GUI-less Ubuntu and Debian. And
>>> Debian Stable is guaranteed upgradable to later versions indefinitely.
>>>
>> Debian stable is years out of date
>
> Isn't that a feature ?
>
Exactly.

On Sun, 26 Nov 2023 08:44:04 +0000
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> Debian stable is years out of date
>
>
Yes, by between six months and 2 1/2 years. But it's fairly free of
bugs, and some effort is made to maintain it, for at least a couple of
years after the next (free) release. And a server generally doesn't need
the very latest, bleeding-edge version of anything. Whether it works
reliably is what matters.

You want more recent software, you get bugs. You want the very latest
software, download the upstream nightly release of source code, and the
best of luck to you.

I can remember when PCB, LibreOffice, LibreCAD and others were fairly
young software, chock full of bugs, when the very latest version was
worth getting for the bug fixes. But they're all fairly mature now. Not
bug-free, but usable.

I run unstable on my desktop, but stable on my server. I can usually
fix what's broken in unstable, or live without it for a while, as I have
more than one computer.

--
Joe

On 11/26/2023 5:00 AM, Jethro_uk wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Nov 2023 00:39:13 +0000, John Rumm wrote:
>
>> On 25/11/2023 14:39, Jethro_uk wrote:
>>> Rather annoyed with myself for not snapping up a 16Gb mini PC at £169
>>> yesterday on Amazon. Now £239.
>>>
>>> However it did tip me towards a decision in principle to replace the
>>> aging (15+ years old) desktop PC I run as a media server with a simple
>>> fanless mini PC.
>>>
>>> Obviously I'll put linux on it (probably Ubuntu server as I won't need
>>> a GUI and I've been running it at work for 2 years).
>>>
>>> Anything I get will come with Win11. Would the group downgrade that to
>>> W10 before installing Linux ?
>>
>> 10 probably won't activate on an 11 key, and 10 will stop receiving
>> security fixes etc in 2025, so I would probably stay with 11 at this
>> point.
>>
>>> My reasoning being on the one day of the year I may need a windows
>>> machine, it's better to have a halfway decent version.
>>>
>>> Ideally I'd package the existing install into a VM and use the 16Gb PC
>>> to run it.
>>
>> If you enable Hyper-V[1] on win 11, then you are kind of doing that
>> anyway (since hyper-v is a type 1 hypervisor, it runs on bare metal and
>> loads before windows - windows then runs as a client OS)
>>
>> [1] included with windows unless it is a "home" version.
>
> Home is the default retail version.
>

I would just buy a mini-PC with nothing, install whatever
Windows 11 you think is prudent, then install Linux. Now,
you don't have to screw around with virtual machines, and
everything works with minimal effort. Your machine is then
a dual boot.

Any other course of action, should be tested or simulated
in advance.

I don't really like Hyper-V. This is the second time I've tried
it on Pro, and went away with nothing. VMWare Workstation Player
works, but it has "interface traps" where you can get in trouble.
(They encrypt the control file and then you cannot edit your way
out of an interface trap.) VirtualBox is the first cross-platform thing,
which is usable by mere humans. Linux has several repackagings
of QEMU KVM, such as Gnome Boxes, each one, an acquired taste.
I can get a job done faster with VirtualBox, then move on to something else.

Intel got rid of its NUC division and Asus now runs the product line.
But when the word "business" appears, the security features can be
a nuisance on them (more likely to prevent Linux from installing,
while the Secure Boot key situation is in flux). And the price on these,
is never cheap.

https://www.asus.com/displays-desktops/nucs/nuc-mini-pcs/nuc-13-pro-mini-pc/

*******

But some of the smaller companies, make cheaper product. This doesn't have an OS.
Don't buy product, without examining the user manual first (for BIOS adequacy).
A shit BIOS can ruin a cheap offering. The storage on this, may run at
SATA port rates (not a problem).

Beelink MINI PC N95 MINI $165 Alder Lake N
https://www.newegg.com/p/2SW-0012-000Y5

https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/231800/intel-processor-n95-6m-cache-up-to-3-40-ghz.html

You want the Intel GPU to be one of their standard types,
so there will be proper driver support for it. There was one
Intel CPU, like an Atom, that had a foreign "cell phone GPU" in
it, and driver support consisted of one driver, and no updates
to the driver whatsoever. This is why we have to verify Intel
GPU offerings.

Processor Graphics Intel UHD Graphics
Execution Units 16

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Graphics_Technology

Intel UHD Graphics 710

https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/uhd-graphics-710.c3876

*******

You can install OSes in either order, but one order is less work.
Win11 <version>, then a Linux. When Windows Upgrades come in, like
23H2, that won't upset Linux. Windows only throws Linux into the
weeds, on a clean install. If 23H2 upgrade can find the ESP and the Microsoft
folder, it just uses that, without blowing everything else up.

I'm running four activated OS flavours (multiboot) off the same key.
The behavior may differ, if the key is in ACPI MSDM (Asus NUC), than if you
are using a retail W10 Pro key (potential for more combinations).

upgrade
Win10 Pro key ---------> Win11 Pro If you use ShowKey, the two on
| the left might show the original key,
| sidegrade while the two on the right will show
v upgrade "generic" keys. But I'm not going to
Win10 Home ------------> Win11 Home shut down, swap drives and take pictures of all that.
You could use ProduKey, but you have to shut
Windows Defender off, and it doesn't stay off
long enough for comfort.

But I'm not going to "promise" you anything :-) It just seems to work.
Who knows when you try it. It's really hard to guess just how many
key types and behaviors there are. Their big cheese said they would
simplify the schemes they had, and that idea just went out the window,
and it only became worse. There isn't even a way to query a key in hand,
and have Microsoft tell you precisely what *kind* of key it is, and
where it came from. When you see a license for 20% of retail or less,
you have to wonder what the "gotcha" is.

Win10 and Win11 will put a watermark on the screen, after enough hours,
when they are not activated, but the grace period appears to be infinity.
Earlier OSes had 30day/90day grace. Some of the Windows OSes in the past
have been very badly behaved when moved (lock-up). I can move the W11 Home
off this AMD PC, to the older Intel PC which is not Win11 compatible,
and it boots just fine and you can use it. Almost (but not quite), a Linux
feature set.

Paul

On 11/26/2023 7:22 AM, David Wade wrote:
> On 25/11/2023 14:39, Jethro_uk wrote:
>> Rather annoyed with myself for not snapping up a 16Gb mini PC at £169
>> yesterday on Amazon. Now £239.
>>
>> However it did tip me towards a decision in principle to replace the aging
>> (15+ years old) desktop PC I run as a media server with a simple fanless
>> mini PC.
>>
>> Obviously I'll put linux on it (probably Ubuntu server as I won't need a
>> GUI and I've been running it at work for 2 years).
>>
>> Anything I get will come with Win11. Would the group downgrade that to W10
>> before installing Linux ?
>>
>> My reasoning being on the one day of the year I may need a windows
>> machine, it's better to have a halfway decent version.
>
> Personally I like Windows/11. I would leave as is...

It uses three flavours of font rendering, on the same damn screen.
Make up your mind, Microsoft.

Depending on what's left of your eyesight, it's a graphical disaster.
Win10 just seems to be more legible.

Paul

On 26/11/2023 10:00, Jethro_uk wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Nov 2023 00:39:13 +0000, John Rumm wrote:
>
>> On 25/11/2023 14:39, Jethro_uk wrote:
>>> Rather annoyed with myself for not snapping up a 16Gb mini PC at £169
>>> yesterday on Amazon. Now £239.
>>>
>>> However it did tip me towards a decision in principle to replace the
>>> aging (15+ years old) desktop PC I run as a media server with a simple
>>> fanless mini PC.
>>>
>>> Obviously I'll put linux on it (probably Ubuntu server as I won't need
>>> a GUI and I've been running it at work for 2 years).
>>>
>>> Anything I get will come with Win11. Would the group downgrade that to
>>> W10 before installing Linux ?
>>
>> 10 probably won't activate on an 11 key, and 10 will stop receiving
>> security fixes etc in 2025, so I would probably stay with 11 at this
>> point.
>>
>>> My reasoning being on the one day of the year I may need a windows
>>> machine, it's better to have a halfway decent version.
>>>
>>> Ideally I'd package the existing install into a VM and use the 16Gb PC
>>> to run it.
>>
>> If you enable Hyper-V[1] on win 11, then you are kind of doing that
>> anyway (since hyper-v is a type 1 hypervisor, it runs on bare metal and
>> loads before windows - windows then runs as a client OS)
>>
>> [1] included with windows unless it is a "home" version.
>
> Home is the default retail version.

So, don't buy the default - easy enough to buy new machines with pro.
Or, upgrade to pro.

(If you don't mind faffing about a bit then you can get Hyper-V running
using home as well)

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

On 26/11/2023 17:57, Paul wrote:

> I don't really like Hyper-V. This is the second time I've tried
> it on Pro, and went away with nothing.

The first time I tried it, I could make no sense of it - there seemed to
be no way to actually create or spec a VM. It was only later when I
tried in on a Win 11 box, and found all the options that were missing on
my version where there and working. I realised the main problem was the
VM Management service was not running properly - so the Hyper-V manager
was lacking all the controls to actually create new VMs. A bit of
uninstalling and reinstalling fixed that, and since then it works reliably.

> VMWare Workstation Player
> works, but it has "interface traps" where you can get in trouble.
> (They encrypt the control file and then you cannot edit your way
> out of an interface trap.) VirtualBox is the first cross-platform thing,
> which is usable by mere humans. Linux has several repackagings
> of QEMU KVM, such as Gnome Boxes, each one, an acquired taste.
> I can get a job done faster with VirtualBox, then move on to something else.

Virtualbox is certainly easy to get up and running. The performance is
not bad, but not quite as good as the type 1 hypervisors. When running
windows VMs on a windows host, the integration is not quite as good and
things like support for screen modes can be a bit of a nuisance at times.

> Intel got rid of its NUC division and Asus now runs the product line.
> But when the word "business" appears, the security features can be
> a nuisance on them (more likely to prevent Linux from installing,
> while the Secure Boot key situation is in flux). And the price on these,
> is never cheap.
>
> https://www.asus.com/displays-desktops/nucs/nuc-mini-pcs/nuc-13-pro-mini-pc/

I used one of those recently - their top end i7 with 32GB RAM and a
Samsung Evo 980 Pro NVMe SSD. I was actually very impressed. The close
to 7GB/sec sequential transfer on the SSD even inside a VM was
impressive. It sits in a clients comms cabinets and pretends to be 4
computers for remote users, and works well. About the only bit I was
less keen on was the fan can make quite a racket if the machine is
working hard.

> But I'm not going to "promise" you anything :-) It just seems to work.
> Who knows when you try it. It's really hard to guess just how many
> key types and behaviors there are. Their big cheese said they would
> simplify the schemes they had, and that idea just went out the window,
> and it only became worse. There isn't even a way to query a key in hand,
> and have Microsoft tell you precisely what *kind* of key it is, and
> where it came from. When you see a license for 20% of retail or less,
> you have to wonder what the "gotcha" is.

MS seemed to have knobbled some of the key flexibility of late. I tired
to upgrade a Win 7 pro box to Win 10 the other day and could not do it
with the existing key for either a clean install or using the Win 10
media creation tool.

> Win10 and Win11 will put a watermark on the screen, after enough hours,
> when they are not activated, but the grace period appears to be infinity.

Yup they run indefinitely but restrict the ability to personalise some
aspects of the UI when not activated.

> Earlier OSes had 30day/90day grace. Some of the Windows OSes in the past
> have been very badly behaved when moved (lock-up). I can move the W11 Home
> off this AMD PC, to the older Intel PC which is not Win11 compatible,
> and it boots just fine and you can use it. Almost (but not quite), a Linux
> feature set.
I think they revamped the whole HAL concept from win 10 on - so it got
much better at adapting to new hardware after initial install.

--
Cheers,

John.

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| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
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