...and one I'm glad I have the option of ending and/or not repeating [1].

I've just got back from four days in Kyiv. Work related.

But...

I don't know whether it was the intensity of the meetings, number of
meetings, the air raid sirens every night so you didn't get sleep, the
19 hour train journey from Warsaw (and back) or accidentally, nearly
getting arrested (under martial law) by fucking heavily armed police.

The disorientating, familiarity and normality of everything but in a
state of war.

The visits to Borodyanka, Irpin and lunch with a friend of one of the
people we were meeting in Bucha, who had just moved back into his (very
nice) house after it had been looted by Russians [2]. The evidence of
the massacres and mass graves very real.

....that have left me absolutely frazzled.

[1] It is likely it will be repeated.
[2] As ever, those who have the least to give are always
the most generous.

--
Simon

On 28/08/2022 14:21, sweller wrote:
>
> ..and one I'm glad I have the option of ending and/or not repeating [1].
>
> I've just got back from four days in Kyiv. Work related.
>
> But...
>
> I don't know whether it was the intensity of the meetings, number of
> meetings, the air raid sirens every night so you didn't get sleep, the
> 19 hour train journey from Warsaw (and back) or accidentally, nearly
> getting arrested (under martial law) by fucking heavily armed police.
>
> The disorientating, familiarity and normality of everything but in a
> state of war.
>
> The visits to Borodyanka, Irpin and lunch with a friend of one of the
> people we were meeting in Bucha, who had just moved back into his (very
> nice) house after it had been looted by Russians [2]. The evidence of
> the massacres and mass graves very real.
>
> ...that have left me absolutely frazzled.
>
>
> [1] It is likely it will be repeated.
> [2] As ever, those who have the least to give are always
> the most generous.
>

Blimey. That's brave. Not sure I'd do that. Did you have any (valid)
insurance for anything?

You can't leave the nearly getting arrested story at that though. Spill.

--
/Simon

On 8/28/2022 6:57 AM, siwilson wrote:
> On 28/08/2022 14:21, sweller wrote:
>>
>> ..and one I'm glad I have the option of ending and/or not repeating [1].
>>
>> I've just got back from four days in Kyiv.  Work related.
>>
>> But...
>>
>> The disorientating, familiarity and normality of everything but in a
>> state of war.
>>
>> The visits to Borodyanka, Irpin and lunch with a friend of one of the
>> people we were meeting in Bucha, who had just moved back into his (very
>> nice) house after it had been looted by Russians [2].  The evidence of
>> the massacres and mass graves very real.
>>
>> ...that have left me absolutely frazzled.
>>
>>
>> [1]  It is likely it will be repeated.
>> [2]  As ever, those who have the least to give are always
>>       the most generous.
>>
>
> Blimey. That's brave. Not sure I'd do that. Did you have any (valid)
> insurance for anything?
>
> You can't leave the nearly getting arrested story at that though. Spill.
>
Yes. This.
Would also like to hear impressions of how locals are dealing with it. I
can't imagine the stress they live under. And whether they feel
confident in the outcome.

--
The erstwhile Thomas
FJR1300, R1200GS & ST1100 (in memoriam)

On 28/08/2022 14:21, sweller wrote:
>
> ..and one I'm glad I have the option of ending and/or not repeating [1].
>
> I've just got back from four days in Kyiv. Work related.
>

Ferk.

Hopefully a succesful trip.

--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/
There *is* an alternative! http://www.openoffice.org/

siwilson wrote:

> > The disorientating, familiarity and normality of everything but in a
> > state of war.

> Blimey. That's brave. Not sure I'd do that. Did you have any (valid)
> insurance for anything?

Probably not - I had work insurance but I didn't check if it covered
countries at war.

> You can't leave the nearly getting arrested story at that though. Sp

It was all rather annoying and very stupid (on several players' parts).

I'm a sucker for old Soviet era art and architecture so I took a
picture of a pretty astonishing, and large mosaic.

Unfortunately said mosaic was attached to a factory. Factories are
strategic infrastructure. This is not a good thing.

Security guard starts remonstrating with us, and my Ukranian colleagues
tell him to fuck off.

Shortly afterwards armed police arrive and they are also told to fuck
off.

More police arrive, with very large guns, and shortly after that more
police, and a Black Maria.

I think we ended up under arrest around then. The ten or so police
milling about were not really in the mood for this shit.

My colleague, a Ukranian lawyer, was arguing with the police on their
interpretation of the war statutes and martial law. He was also the
ring leader in the "fuck offs". Assisted by a huge train driver who
even intimdated the (earlier) police.

When I asked another colleague what was going on, he replied "Vassily
[the lawyer] is making it worse".

It was at this point I began to conduct my own defence.

The "misunderstanding" was resolved fairly quickly, if not amicably.

I have two UK passports - I was very, very glad I hadn't brought the
copy with the old Russian and Belarussian visas in...

--
Simon

Turby wrote:

> Would also like to hear impressions of how locals are dealing with
> it. I can't imagine the stress they live under. And whether they feel
> confident in the outcome.

I met a lot of civil society, an MP, trade unions, train drivers,
railway workers, young people, the left left, and centre-left social
democrats.

All are tired, shocked, jittery and with one voice the only resolution
for them is to have regained control of the 1991 borders and expelled
the invaders.

There's going to be a mental health pandemic there.

--
Simon

On 29 Aug 2022 13:16:43 GMT, "sweller" <sweller@mztech.fsnet.co.uk>
wrote:

>siwilson wrote:
>
>> > The disorientating, familiarity and normality of everything but in a
>> > state of war.
>
>> Blimey. That's brave. Not sure I'd do that. Did you have any (valid)
>> insurance for anything?
>
>Probably not - I had work insurance but I didn't check if it covered
>countries at war.
>
>
>> You can't leave the nearly getting arrested story at that though. Sp
>
>It was all rather annoying and very stupid (on several players' parts).
>
>I'm a sucker for old Soviet era art and architecture so I took a
>picture of a pretty astonishing, and large mosaic.
>
>Unfortunately said mosaic was attached to a factory. Factories are
>strategic infrastructure. This is not a good thing.

Ah, rather heavy-handed policing then, but in fairness, strategic
targets have been identified on both sides in this war from innocent
photography.

--

-Pip

Pipl wrote:

> > Unfortunately said mosaic was attached to a factory. Factories are
> > strategic infrastructure. This is not a good thing.
>
> Ah, rather heavy-handed policing then, but in fairness, strategic
> targets have been identified on both sides in this war from innocent
> photography.

They can get the locations from google maps - and don't forget, the
Soviet Union (by extension, Russia) had pretty good military maps of
its own territories - the issue from photos is *who* is there, not
*what*

There have been attacks as a result of social media photos knowing that
various military or important civillian personnel are in a specific
location.

--
Simon

On 28/08/2022 19:53, Turby wrote:

> Yes. This.
> Would also like to hear impressions of how locals are dealing with it. I
> can't imagine the stress they live under. And whether they feel
> confident in the outcome.
>

I'm in infrequent contact with a former colleague. I can tell you that
their resolve is incredibly strong. I believe that even if Russia were
to "successfully" occupy the entire country, that there would be massive
resistance that would be difficult//impossible to overcome.

--
/Simon

On Monday, August 29, 2022 at 12:19:21 PM UTC-4, siwilson wrote:

> I'm in infrequent contact with a former colleague. I can tell you that
> their resolve is incredibly strong. I believe that even if Russia were
> to "successfully" occupy the entire country, that there would be massive
> resistance that would be difficult//impossible to overcome.

What is required is a way for Putin to withdraw without losing face. But there isn't one. So I think we have to hope that he gets whacked by one of his insiders.

On Sunday, August 28, 2022 at 9:21:15 AM UTC-4, sweller wrote:

> The disorientating, familiarity and normality of everything but in a
> state of war.

Weird, innit. Glad you're home safe.

On Monday, 29 August 2022 at 17:38:11 UTC+1, Ben Blaney wrote:
> On Monday, August 29, 2022 at 12:19:21 PM UTC-4, siwilson wrote:
>
> > I'm in infrequent contact with a former colleague. I can tell you that
> > their resolve is incredibly strong. I believe that even if Russia were
> > to "successfully" occupy the entire country, that there would be massive
> > resistance that would be difficult//impossible to overcome.
> What is required is a way for Putin to withdraw without losing face. But there isn't one. So I think we have to hope that he gets whacked by one of his insiders.

Depends on the insider really. It could always be worse.

Just look at the recent run of British Prime Ministers for evidence...

On 8/29/2022 8:01 AM, sweller wrote:
> Pipl wrote:
>
>
> They can get the locations from google maps - and don't forget, the
> Soviet Union (by extension, Russia) had pretty good military maps of
> its own territories -

In the army, I learned the USSR maps were made with intentional
errors/fiction to throw off any invaders. I've always wondered if any
valid maps existed.

--
The erstwhile Thomas
FJR1300, R1200GS & ST1100 (in memoriam)

Turby wrote:

> In the army, I learned the USSR maps were made with intentional
> errors/fiction to throw off any invaders. I've always wondered if any
> valid maps existed.

If it was intentional, it's fair to say they have the originals. There
are many maps where the map-makers have deliberate errors or additions
to throw people off or to show copyright infringement.

--
Simon

sweller <sweller@mztech.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
> Turby wrote:

>> In the army, I learned the USSR maps were made with intentional
>> errors/fiction to throw off any invaders. I've always wondered if any
>> valid maps existed.

> If it was intentional, it's fair to say they have the originals. There
> are many maps where the map-makers have deliberate errors or additions
> to throw people off or to show copyright infringement.
The maps issued for the parachute operation to capture the bridge at Arnhem
(Operation Market Garden, September 1944, aka ‘A Bridge Too Far’) didn’t
actually show the bridge…

…but everyone knew where it was.

--
Spike

On 30 Aug 2022 13:26:00 GMT, Spike <Aero.Spike@mail.invalid> wrote:

>sweller <sweller@mztech.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>> Turby wrote:
>
>>> In the army, I learned the USSR maps were made with intentional
>>> errors/fiction to throw off any invaders. I've always wondered if any
>>> valid maps existed.
>
>> If it was intentional, it's fair to say they have the originals. There
>> are many maps where the map-makers have deliberate errors or additions
>> to throw people off or to show copyright infringement.
>
>The maps issued for the parachute operation to capture the bridge at Arnhem
>(Operation Market Garden, September 1944, aka ‘A Bridge Too Far’) didn’t
>actually show the bridge…
>
>…but everyone knew where it was.

But not necessarily how far away it was...
--
Ace
http://www.chaletbeauroc.com/

Ace wrote:
> On 30 Aug 2022 13:26:00 GMT, Spike <Aero.Spike@mail.invalid> wrote:
>
>> sweller <sweller@mztech.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Turby wrote:
>>>> In the army, I learned the USSR maps were made with intentional
>>>> errors/fiction to throw off any invaders. I've always wondered if any
>>>> valid maps existed.
>>> If it was intentional, it's fair to say they have the originals. There
>>> are many maps where the map-makers have deliberate errors or additions
>>> to throw people off or to show copyright infringement.
>> The maps issued for the parachute operation to capture the bridge at Arnhem
>> (Operation Market Garden, September 1944, aka ‘A Bridge Too Far’) didn’t
>> actually show the bridge…
>>
>> …but everyone knew where it was.
>
> But not necessarily how far away it was...

Or whether anybody was cooking meth under it...

Ace <Ace@ch.com> wrote:
> On 30 Aug 2022 13:26:00 GMT, Spike <Aero.Spike@mail.invalid> wrote:

>> sweller <sweller@mztech.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Turby wrote:

>>>> In the army, I learned the USSR maps were made with intentional
>>>> errors/fiction to throw off any invaders. I've always wondered if any
>>>> valid maps existed.

>>> If it was intentional, it's fair to say they have the originals. There
>>> are many maps where the map-makers have deliberate errors or additions
>>> to throw people off or to show copyright infringement.

>> The maps issued for the parachute operation to capture the bridge at Arnhem
>> (Operation Market Garden, September 1944, aka ‘A Bridge Too Far’) didn’t
>> actually show the bridge……but everyone knew where it was.

> But not necessarily how far away it was...

Ah….there was a minor bun fight over a possible DZ near to the bridge but
on the south of the Neder Rijn, and the paratrooper’s choice was abandoned
on the grounds that this ground wasn’t suitable but there was a much better
one outside Wolfheze, which was then selected.

Four days after the first drop and after much delay due to fog on the
airfields, the Polish contingent were dropped….on the unsuitable ground…

As an Operation, it was a cockup from start to sad finish.

--
Spike

sweller wrote:

> Pipl wrote:
>
> > > Unfortunately said mosaic was attached to a factory. Factories
> > > are strategic infrastructure. This is not a good thing.
> >
> > Ah, rather heavy-handed policing then, but in fairness, strategic
> > targets have been identified on both sides in this war from innocent
> > photography.
>
> They can get the locations from google maps - and don't forget, the
> Soviet Union (by extension, Russia) had pretty good military maps of
> its own territories - the issue from photos is who is there, not
> what
>
> There have been attacks as a result of social media photos knowing
> that various military or important civillian personnel are in a
> specific location.

Also can be useful to see exactly where the artillery shell/missile you
just fired actually landed so you can adjust the trajectory of the next
one, I have heard.

--
Geoff
NTV 650

On 29 Aug 2022 13:16:43 GMT, "sweller" <sweller@mztech.fsnet.co.uk>
wrote:

>I have two UK passports - I was very, very glad I hadn't brought the
>copy with the old Russian and Belarussian visas in...

Blimey - I bet you were!
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk

I don't know, but I been told
You never slow down, you never grow old