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aus+uk / uk.rec.audio / Re: Taming tweeters . . .

SubjectAuthor
* Taming tweeters . . .RJH
`* Re: Taming tweeters . . .Don Pearce
 `* Re: Taming tweeters . . .RJH
  +* Re: Taming tweeters . . .Don Pearce
  |`- Re: Taming tweeters . . .RJH
  +* Re: Taming tweeters . . .Phil Allison
  |`- Re: Taming tweeters . . .RJH
  `* Re: Taming tweeters . . .Dave Plowman (News)
   +* Re: Taming tweeters . . .Don Pearce
   |`* Re: Taming tweeters . . .Dave Plowman (News)
   | +* Re: Taming tweeters . . .Don Pearce
   | |`- Re: Taming tweeters . . .Dave Plowman (News)
   | `- Re: Taming tweeters . . .tony sayer
   `* Re: Taming tweeters . . .RJH
    +* Re: Taming tweeters . . .Phil Allison
    |`- Re: Taming tweeters . . .RJH
    `* Re: Taming tweeters . . .Dave Plowman (News)
     +* Re: Taming tweeters . . .RJH
     |+* Re: Taming tweeters . . .Trevor Wilson
     ||`* Re: Taming tweeters . . .RJH
     || `* Re: Taming tweeters . . .Trevor Wilson
     ||  `* Re: Taming tweeters . . .Dave Plowman (News)
     ||   `* Re: Taming tweeters . . .Trevor Wilson
     ||    `* Re: Taming tweeters . . .Dave Plowman (News)
     ||     +- Re: Taming tweeters . . .Trevor Wilson
     ||     `- Re: Taming tweeters . . .Trevor Wilson
     |`- Re: Taming tweeters . . .Dave Plowman (News)
     `* Re: Taming tweeters . . .Jim Lesurf
      +- Re: Taming tweeters . . .Dave Plowman (News)
      `- Re: Taming tweeters . . .Trevor Wilson

Pages:12
Taming tweeters . . .

<t5r3oq$2p8$1@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=1160&group=uk.rec.audio#1160

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From: patchmo...@gmx.com (RJH)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.audio
Subject: Taming tweeters . . .
Date: Sun, 15 May 2022 14:46:50 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: RJH - Sun, 15 May 2022 14:46 UTC

I've built some boxes to house some (what I think) are PMC DB1 drivers and
crossovers. Generally they sound very good, although the treble is too
prominent. I can correct this quite effectively with the slope controls on a
Quad preamplifier, but I'd like to have a go at getting them reasonably
neutral.

I've had a look at:

https://sound-au.com/articles/l-pad-calc.htm

and that suggests an L-pad arrangement, using 10W resistors of set values for
a level of attenuation (I'd think 3dB).

Are these the sort of thing I should be using:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/264603278476

'10 Watt Wire wound Cement Resistors'?

I'd like to have a go at modifying the existing (biwrire) crossover, but I
really don't know what I'm doing. A couple of series resistors is close to my
limit.

--
Cheers, Rob

Re: Taming tweeters . . .

<62811af0.24941859@news.eternal-september.org>

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From: spa...@spam.com (Don Pearce)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.audio
Subject: Re: Taming tweeters . . .
Date: Sun, 15 May 2022 15:26:15 GMT
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Don Pearce - Sun, 15 May 2022 15:26 UTC

On Sun, 15 May 2022 14:46:50 -0000 (UTC), RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com>
wrote:

>I've built some boxes to house some (what I think) are PMC DB1 drivers and
>crossovers. Generally they sound very good, although the treble is too
>prominent. I can correct this quite effectively with the slope controls on a
>Quad preamplifier, but I'd like to have a go at getting them reasonably
>neutral.
>
>I've had a look at:
>
>https://sound-au.com/articles/l-pad-calc.htm
>
>and that suggests an L-pad arrangement, using 10W resistors of set values for
>a level of attenuation (I'd think 3dB).
>
>Are these the sort of thing I should be using:
>
>https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/264603278476
>
>'10 Watt Wire wound Cement Resistors'?
>
>I'd like to have a go at modifying the existing (biwrire) crossover, but I
>really don't know what I'm doing. A couple of series resistors is close to my
>limit.

The L-pad is the right way to do this. Slope controls will lead to a
lack of top end. But you should preferably measure the attenuation you
need, or at worst use the sensitivity figures for the bass and tweeter
drivers to estimate.

When you know how much you need to lose, come back here.

d

Re: Taming tweeters . . .

<t5r9ps$fnb$1@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=1162&group=uk.rec.audio#1162

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From: patchmo...@gmx.com (RJH)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.audio
Subject: Re: Taming tweeters . . .
Date: Sun, 15 May 2022 16:29:49 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: RJH - Sun, 15 May 2022 16:29 UTC

On 15 May 2022 at 16:26:15 BST, "Don Pearce" <Don Pearce> wrote:

> On Sun, 15 May 2022 14:46:50 -0000 (UTC), RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I've built some boxes to house some (what I think) are PMC DB1 drivers and
>> crossovers. Generally they sound very good, although the treble is too
>> prominent. I can correct this quite effectively with the slope controls on a
>> Quad preamplifier, but I'd like to have a go at getting them reasonably
>> neutral.
>>
>> I've had a look at:
>>
>> https://sound-au.com/articles/l-pad-calc.htm
>>
>> and that suggests an L-pad arrangement, using 10W resistors of set values for
>> a level of attenuation (I'd think 3dB).
>>
>> Are these the sort of thing I should be using:
>>
>> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/264603278476
>>
>> '10 Watt Wire wound Cement Resistors'?
>>
>> I'd like to have a go at modifying the existing (biwrire) crossover, but I
>> really don't know what I'm doing. A couple of series resistors is close to my
>> limit.
>
> The L-pad is the right way to do this. Slope controls will lead to a
> lack of top end. But you should preferably measure the attenuation you
> need, or at worst use the sensitivity figures for the bass and tweeter
> drivers to estimate.
>
> When you know how much you need to lose, come back here.
>
> d

Thanks - I was going to guess as I don't know the figures for the woofer, and
if I did, wouldn't know what to do with them. The tweeter is this:

https://willys-hifi.com/products/scanspeak-d2606-922000-tweeter

Sensitivity of 91.4dB

The crossover is this:

https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0zJRveFpJIHZzz

And the woofers are s/h from DB1s I got from ebay some years back.

So, given what I don't know I was going to have a guess at 3dB, and vary the
value if it seems to go one way or the other.

--
Cheers, Rob

Re: Taming tweeters . . .

<628137d0.32334734@news.eternal-september.org>

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From: spa...@spam.com (Don Pearce)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.audio
Subject: Re: Taming tweeters . . .
Date: Sun, 15 May 2022 17:27:18 GMT
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Don Pearce - Sun, 15 May 2022 17:27 UTC

On Sun, 15 May 2022 16:29:49 -0000 (UTC), RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com>
wrote:

>On 15 May 2022 at 16:26:15 BST, "Don Pearce" <Don Pearce> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 15 May 2022 14:46:50 -0000 (UTC), RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I've built some boxes to house some (what I think) are PMC DB1 drivers and
>>> crossovers. Generally they sound very good, although the treble is too
>>> prominent. I can correct this quite effectively with the slope controls on a
>>> Quad preamplifier, but I'd like to have a go at getting them reasonably
>>> neutral.
>>>
>>> I've had a look at:
>>>
>>> https://sound-au.com/articles/l-pad-calc.htm
>>>
>>> and that suggests an L-pad arrangement, using 10W resistors of set values for
>>> a level of attenuation (I'd think 3dB).
>>>
>>> Are these the sort of thing I should be using:
>>>
>>> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/264603278476
>>>
>>> '10 Watt Wire wound Cement Resistors'?
>>>
>>> I'd like to have a go at modifying the existing (biwrire) crossover, but I
>>> really don't know what I'm doing. A couple of series resistors is close to my
>>> limit.
>>
>> The L-pad is the right way to do this. Slope controls will lead to a
>> lack of top end. But you should preferably measure the attenuation you
>> need, or at worst use the sensitivity figures for the bass and tweeter
>> drivers to estimate.
>>
>> When you know how much you need to lose, come back here.
>>
>> d
>
>Thanks - I was going to guess as I don't know the figures for the woofer, and
>if I did, wouldn't know what to do with them. The tweeter is this:
>
>https://willys-hifi.com/products/scanspeak-d2606-922000-tweeter
>
>Sensitivity of 91.4dB
>
>The crossover is this:
>
>https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0zJRveFpJIHZzz
>
>And the woofers are s/h from DB1s I got from ebay some years back.
>
>So, given what I don't know I was going to have a guess at 3dB, and vary the
>value if it seems to go one way or the other.

The only D81s I can find are in-ceiling full range speakers. Do you
have any better info?

d

Re: Taming tweeters . . .

<aa711673-8aff-43cc-a660-0c55e6ec0a9dn@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Taming tweeters . . .
From: palliso...@gmail.com (Phil Allison)
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 by: Phil Allison - Sun, 15 May 2022 21:10 UTC

RJH wrote:
==========
>
> The tweeter is this:
>
> https://willys-hifi.com/products/scanspeak-d2606-922000-tweeter
>
> Sensitivity of 91.4dB

** The data shows it's resistive, 6 ohms in the x-over region ( 3kHz)

>
> The crossover is this:
>
> https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0zJRveFpJIHZzz

** A schem would be nice...

Passive x-over design and optimising is what hi-fi speaker engineers do for a living,
It ain't just cobbled together.

Last 3 way I put together took 2 weeks of testing & tweaking using an SPL meter and an AKG mic plus listing to get right.
I suggest you mount the PCB outside the box to facilitate making changes.

Tuck it inside when finished.

....... Phil

Re: Taming tweeters . . .

<t5srfo$7dt$1@dont-email.me>

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From: patchmo...@gmx.com (RJH)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.audio
Subject: Re: Taming tweeters . . .
Date: Mon, 16 May 2022 06:37:44 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: RJH - Mon, 16 May 2022 06:37 UTC

On 15 May 2022 at 18:27:18 BST, "Don Pearce" <Don Pearce> wrote:

> The only D81s I can find are in-ceiling full range speakers. Do you
> have any better info?

https://pmc-speakers.com/products/archive/archive/db1-0
--
Cheers, Rob

Re: Taming tweeters . . .

<t5srt5$a6g$1@dont-email.me>

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From: patchmo...@gmx.com (RJH)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.audio
Subject: Re: Taming tweeters . . .
Date: Mon, 16 May 2022 06:44:53 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: RJH - Mon, 16 May 2022 06:44 UTC

On 15 May 2022 at 22:10:57 BST, "Phil Allison" <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote:

> RJH wrote:
> ==========
>>
>> The tweeter is this:
>>
>> https://willys-hifi.com/products/scanspeak-d2606-922000-tweeter
>>
>> Sensitivity of 91.4dB
>
> ** The data shows it's resistive, 6 ohms in the x-over region ( 3kHz)
>
Ah thanks - I'd assumed 8 (wrongly) for the calculations
>>
>> The crossover is this:
>>
>> https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0zJRveFpJIHZzz
>
> ** A schem would be nice...
>

I'll see if I can manage a basic diagram.

> Passive x-over design and optimising is what hi-fi speaker engineers do for a
> living,
> It ain't just cobbled together.
>
> Last 3 way I put together took 2 weeks of testing & tweaking using an SPL
> meter and an AKG mic plus listing to get right.
> I suggest you mount the PCB outside the box to facilitate making changes.
>
> Tuck it inside when finished.

Yes, I'd much prefer to do that, especially if changes involved simply
swapping out one or both of the resistors on that board. I'll see if I can
produce a diagram from those components - but really this was why I bought the
crossover, hoping to avoid getting in to all of this. I 'designed' the cabinet
from photos of DB1s . . .
--
Cheers, Rob

Re: Taming tweeters . . .

<59e98775e3dave@davenoise.co.uk>

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Subject: Re: Taming tweeters . . .
Date: Mon, 16 May 2022 15:36:23 +0100
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 by: Dave Plowman (News) - Mon, 16 May 2022 14:36 UTC

In article <t5r9ps$fnb$1@dont-email.me>,
RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote:
> On 15 May 2022 at 16:26:15 BST, "Don Pearce" <Don Pearce> wrote:

> > On Sun, 15 May 2022 14:46:50 -0000 (UTC), RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> I've built some boxes to house some (what I think) are PMC DB1 drivers and
> >> crossovers. Generally they sound very good, although the treble is too
> >> prominent. I can correct this quite effectively with the slope controls on a
> >> Quad preamplifier, but I'd like to have a go at getting them reasonably
> >> neutral.
> >>
> >> I've had a look at:
> >>
> >> https://sound-au.com/articles/l-pad-calc.htm
> >>
> >> and that suggests an L-pad arrangement, using 10W resistors of set values for
> >> a level of attenuation (I'd think 3dB).
> >>
> >> Are these the sort of thing I should be using:
> >>
> >> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/264603278476
> >>
> >> '10 Watt Wire wound Cement Resistors'?
> >>
> >> I'd like to have a go at modifying the existing (biwrire) crossover, but I
> >> really don't know what I'm doing. A couple of series resistors is close to my
> >> limit.
> >
> > The L-pad is the right way to do this. Slope controls will lead to a
> > lack of top end. But you should preferably measure the attenuation you
> > need, or at worst use the sensitivity figures for the bass and tweeter
> > drivers to estimate.
> >
> > When you know how much you need to lose, come back here.
> >
> > d

> Thanks - I was going to guess as I don't know the figures for the woofer, and
> if I did, wouldn't know what to do with them. The tweeter is this:

> https://willys-hifi.com/products/scanspeak-d2606-922000-tweeter

> Sensitivity of 91.4dB

> The crossover is this:

> https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0zJRveFpJIHZzz

> And the woofers are s/h from DB1s I got from ebay some years back.

> So, given what I don't know I was going to have a guess at 3dB, and vary the
> value if it seems to go one way or the other.

I'd get the free REW sofware. And a cheap electret mic - if you don't own
a reasonable one. And look at the crossover point. Should give a clue how
much it is out.

--
*Rehab is for quitters

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Re: Taming tweeters . . .

<628286a1.31934078@news.eternal-september.org>

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From: spa...@spam.com (Don Pearce)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.audio
Subject: Re: Taming tweeters . . .
Date: Mon, 16 May 2022 17:18:21 GMT
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 by: Don Pearce - Mon, 16 May 2022 17:18 UTC

On Mon, 16 May 2022 15:36:23 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
<dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:

>I'd get the free REW sofware. And a cheap electret mic - if you don't own
>a reasonable one. And look at the crossover point. Should give a clue how
>much it is out.
>
>--

I'd forgotten about REW - a perfect piece of software for this job.
The mic doesn't need to be expensive, any omnidirectional electret
will do.

While you are taking the plot, don't hold the mic still - you will
just measure room modes. Instead move it back and forth crosswise a
couple of feet, not too fast. Take a bunch of plots to find the trend.
That should let you identify the average levels below and above the
crossover frequency.

d

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Newsgroups: uk.rec.audio
Subject: Re: Taming tweeters . . .
Date: Mon, 16 May 2022 18:50:26 +0100
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 by: Dave Plowman (News) - Mon, 16 May 2022 17:50 UTC

In article <628286a1.31934078@news.eternal-september.org>,
Don Pearce <spam@spam.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 16 May 2022 15:36:23 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
> <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:

> >I'd get the free REW sofware. And a cheap electret mic - if you don't own
> >a reasonable one. And look at the crossover point. Should give a clue how
> >much it is out.
> >
> >--

> I'd forgotten about REW - a perfect piece of software for this job.
> The mic doesn't need to be expensive, any omnidirectional electret
> will do.

> While you are taking the plot, don't hold the mic still - you will
> just measure room modes. Instead move it back and forth crosswise a
> couple of feet, not too fast. Take a bunch of plots to find the trend.
> That should let you identify the average levels below and above the
> crossover frequency.

Not used it for ages, but thought the recent software sort of cancelled
out room resonances and nodes?

Must read up about it again - just glanced at emails they've sent me.

--
*HOW IS IT POSSIBLE TO HAVE A CIVIL WAR?

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

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Subject: Re: Taming tweeters . . .
Date: Mon, 16 May 2022 18:57:08 GMT
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 by: Don Pearce - Mon, 16 May 2022 18:57 UTC

On Mon, 16 May 2022 18:50:26 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
<dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:

>In article <628286a1.31934078@news.eternal-september.org>,
> Don Pearce <spam@spam.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 16 May 2022 15:36:23 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
>> <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> >I'd get the free REW sofware. And a cheap electret mic - if you don't own
>> >a reasonable one. And look at the crossover point. Should give a clue how
>> >much it is out.
>> >
>> >--
>
>> I'd forgotten about REW - a perfect piece of software for this job.
>> The mic doesn't need to be expensive, any omnidirectional electret
>> will do.
>
>> While you are taking the plot, don't hold the mic still - you will
>> just measure room modes. Instead move it back and forth crosswise a
>> couple of feet, not too fast. Take a bunch of plots to find the trend.
>> That should let you identify the average levels below and above the
>> crossover frequency.
>
>Not used it for ages, but thought the recent software sort of cancelled
>out room resonances and nodes?
>
>Must read up about it again - just glanced at emails they've sent me.

Software can't cancel modes. The only way you can do it is to mic in
many locations and ignore any dips. I use Sonarworks which takes
measurements at 37 different places to do the job.

Even then it obviously doesn't fix the dips, just removes them from
the speaker optimization process. You still need a decent room.

d

Re: Taming tweeters . . .

<ElwiH$F9kKhiFwZF@bancom.co.uk>

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From: ton...@bancom.co.uk (tony sayer)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.audio
Subject: Re: Taming tweeters . . .
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 09:07:25 +0100
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 by: tony sayer - Wed, 18 May 2022 08:07 UTC

In article <59e9993a5edave@davenoise.co.uk>, Dave Plowman (News)
<dave@davenoise.co.uk> scribeth thus
>In article <628286a1.31934078@news.eternal-september.org>,
> Don Pearce <spam@spam.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 16 May 2022 15:36:23 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
>> <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> >I'd get the free REW sofware. And a cheap electret mic - if you don't own
>> >a reasonable one. And look at the crossover point. Should give a clue how
>> >much it is out.
>> >
>> >--
>
>> I'd forgotten about REW - a perfect piece of software for this job.
>> The mic doesn't need to be expensive, any omnidirectional electret
>> will do.
>
>> While you are taking the plot, don't hold the mic still - you will
>> just measure room modes. Instead move it back and forth crosswise a
>> couple of feet, not too fast. Take a bunch of plots to find the trend.
>> That should let you identify the average levels below and above the
>> crossover frequency.
>
>Not used it for ages, but thought the recent software sort of cancelled
>out room resonances and nodes?
>
>Must read up about it again - just glanced at emails they've sent me.
>

Now that the weathers nice thats an open air back garden project ;?....

Tried the ESL63's outside once, they do well for an "Airing";!.

--
Tony Sayer

Man is least himself when he talks in his own person.

Give him a keyboard, and he will reveal himself.

Re: Taming tweeters . . .

<59ea8af47cdave@davenoise.co.uk>

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Newsgroups: uk.rec.audio
Subject: Re: Taming tweeters . . .
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 14:50:46 +0100
Organization: None
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 by: Dave Plowman (News) - Wed, 18 May 2022 13:50 UTC

In article <62829dfb.37912500@news.eternal-september.org>,
Don Pearce <spam@spam.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 16 May 2022 18:50:26 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
> <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:

> >In article <628286a1.31934078@news.eternal-september.org>,
> > Don Pearce <spam@spam.com> wrote:
> >> On Mon, 16 May 2022 15:36:23 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
> >> <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >> >I'd get the free REW sofware. And a cheap electret mic - if you don't own
> >> >a reasonable one. And look at the crossover point. Should give a clue how
> >> >much it is out.
> >> >
> >> >--
> >
> >> I'd forgotten about REW - a perfect piece of software for this job.
> >> The mic doesn't need to be expensive, any omnidirectional electret
> >> will do.
> >
> >> While you are taking the plot, don't hold the mic still - you will
> >> just measure room modes. Instead move it back and forth crosswise a
> >> couple of feet, not too fast. Take a bunch of plots to find the trend.
> >> That should let you identify the average levels below and above the
> >> crossover frequency.
> >
> >Not used it for ages, but thought the recent software sort of cancelled
> >out room resonances and nodes?
> >
> >Must read up about it again - just glanced at emails they've sent me.

> Software can't cancel modes. The only way you can do it is to mic in
> many locations and ignore any dips. I use Sonarworks which takes
> measurements at 37 different places to do the job.

> Even then it obviously doesn't fix the dips, just removes them from
> the speaker optimization process. You still need a decent room.

Did use it some time ago for setting up my triple driver (bass mid treble)
speakers. Really just looking at the crossover points. And moving the mic
didn't make any real difference to those (positioned at least a metre
away. Obviously if you had it very close to one driver, it did.

What was quite interesting was I reckoned I could hear a 0.5dB difference
in the tweeter drive. Which surprised me.

--
*What happens if you get scared half to death twice? *

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

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From: patchmo...@gmx.com (RJH)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.audio
Subject: Re: Taming tweeters . . .
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2022 18:26:49 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: RJH - Sat, 18 Jun 2022 18:26 UTC

On 16 May 2022 at 15:36:23 BST, ""Dave Plowman" <News)" <dave@davenoise.co.uk>
wrote:

> In article <t5r9ps$fnb$1@dont-email.me>,
> RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote:
>> On 15 May 2022 at 16:26:15 BST, "Don Pearce" <Don Pearce> wrote:
>
>>> On Sun, 15 May 2022 14:46:50 -0000 (UTC), RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I've built some boxes to house some (what I think) are PMC DB1 drivers and
>>>> crossovers. Generally they sound very good, although the treble is too
>>>> prominent. I can correct this quite effectively with the slope controls on a
>>>> Quad preamplifier, but I'd like to have a go at getting them reasonably
>>>> neutral.
>>>>
>>>> I've had a look at:
>>>>
>>>> https://sound-au.com/articles/l-pad-calc.htm
>>>>
>>>> and that suggests an L-pad arrangement, using 10W resistors of set values for
>>>> a level of attenuation (I'd think 3dB).
>>>>
>>>> Are these the sort of thing I should be using:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/264603278476
>>>>
>>>> '10 Watt Wire wound Cement Resistors'?
>>>>
>>>> I'd like to have a go at modifying the existing (biwrire) crossover, but I
>>>> really don't know what I'm doing. A couple of series resistors is close to my
>>>> limit.
>>>
>>> The L-pad is the right way to do this. Slope controls will lead to a
>>> lack of top end. But you should preferably measure the attenuation you
>>> need, or at worst use the sensitivity figures for the bass and tweeter
>>> drivers to estimate.
>>>
>>> When you know how much you need to lose, come back here.
>>>
>>> d
>
>> Thanks - I was going to guess as I don't know the figures for the woofer, and
>> if I did, wouldn't know what to do with them. The tweeter is this:
>
>> https://willys-hifi.com/products/scanspeak-d2606-922000-tweeter
>
>> Sensitivity of 91.4dB
>
>> The crossover is this:
>
>> https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0zJRveFpJIHZzz
>
>> And the woofers are s/h from DB1s I got from ebay some years back.
>
>> So, given what I don't know I was going to have a guess at 3dB, and vary the
>> value if it seems to go one way or the other.
>
> I'd get the free REW sofware. And a cheap electret mic - if you don't own
> a reasonable one. And look at the crossover point. Should give a clue how
> much it is out.

Looks impressive - and quite involved, especially with the recommended mic (at
£150). Still, I've got it installed and I'll have a play. A thing that I
noticed in the https://sound-au.com/articles/l-pad-calc.htm article is the
comment: 'it's actually easier (and often cheaper) to use a vastly superior
electronic crossover' to get the parameters right. I can see easier - but
cheaper?

Meantime, I've fitted some resistors and the speakers sound much improved.
--
Cheers, Rob

Re: Taming tweeters . . .

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Subject: Re: Taming tweeters . . .
From: palliso...@gmail.com (Phil Allison)
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 by: Phil Allison - Sun, 19 Jun 2022 01:47 UTC

RJH wrote:
==========
>
> A thing that I
> noticed in the https://sound-au.com/articles/l-pad-calc.htm article is the
> comment: 'it's actually easier (and often cheaper) to use a vastly superior
> electronic crossover' to get the parameters right. I can see easier - but
> cheaper?
>

** The article is meant for DIY enthusiasts.

When cost of parts is the only thing considered, it may well be cheaper.
Cos x-over points and levels are then set with a few knob turns instead of part swapping and hours of time.

...... Phil

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 by: RJH - Sun, 19 Jun 2022 08:38 UTC

On 19 Jun 2022 at 02:47:32 BST, "Phil Allison" <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote:

> RJH wrote:
> ==========
>>
>> A thing that I
>> noticed in the https://sound-au.com/articles/l-pad-calc.htm article is the
>> comment: 'it's actually easier (and often cheaper) to use a vastly superior
>> electronic crossover' to get the parameters right. I can see easier - but
>> cheaper?
>>
>
> ** The article is meant for DIY enthusiasts.
>

Who don't usually cost their time - it's a hobby after all.

> When cost of parts is the only thing considered, it may well be cheaper.
> Cos x-over points and levels are then set with a few knob turns instead of
> part swapping and hours of time.
>

I did look at this after I first posted. Something like:

https://www.behringer.com/product.html?modelCode=P0100

Behringer CX3400. About £130, so not outrageous. But then I'd need 4 channels
of amplification, so the costs would add up for something I'm not /that/
enthusiastic about. Mind, I'll need to get a microphone anyway at some point.

--
Cheers, Rob

Re: Taming tweeters . . .

<59fafef37ddave@davenoise.co.uk>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=1190&group=uk.rec.audio#1190

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From: dav...@davenoise.co.uk (Dave Plowman (News))
Newsgroups: uk.rec.audio
Subject: Re: Taming tweeters . . .
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2022 13:36:58 +0100
Organization: None
Message-ID: <59fafef37ddave@davenoise.co.uk>
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 by: Dave Plowman (News) - Sun, 19 Jun 2022 12:36 UTC

In article <t8l5d9$apm$1@dont-email.me>,
RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote:
> > I'd get the free REW sofware. And a cheap electret mic - if you don't
> > own a reasonable one. And look at the crossover point. Should give a
> > clue how much it is out.

> Looks impressive - and quite involved, especially with the recommended
> mic (at £150).

You do need a calibrated mic for very best results. But a cheap electret
omni can be remarkably good.

> Still, I've got it installed and I'll have a play. A thing that I
> noticed in the https://sound-au.com/articles/l-pad-calc.htm article is
> the comment: 'it's actually easier (and often cheaper) to use a vastly
> superior electronic crossover' to get the parameters right. I can see
> easier - but cheaper?

> Meantime, I've fitted some resistors and the speakers sound much improved.

Some sophisticated crossovers include very expensive custom made chokes
and even auto-transformers. So quite possible to do it cheaper with an
electronic crossover plus extra power amps.

Behringer (and others) do fully programmable crossovers. At quite a
reasonable price, as they're made in big quantities for PA use. Variable
crossover type and slope. And (limited) EQ on each channel too, for
smoothing things out. You could use one for setting up - then duplicate
the curves in a non adjustable one. And flog the Behringer afterwards.

--
*When blondes have more fun, do they know it?

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Re: Taming tweeters . . .

<t8nfvt$cg8$1@dont-email.me>

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From: patchmo...@gmx.com (RJH)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.audio
Subject: Re: Taming tweeters . . .
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2022 15:39:41 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: RJH - Sun, 19 Jun 2022 15:39 UTC

On 19 Jun 2022 at 13:36:58 BST, "Dave Plowman wrote:

>
>
>> Meantime, I've fitted some resistors and the speakers sound much improved.
>
> Some sophisticated crossovers include very expensive custom made chokes
> and even auto-transformers. So quite possible to do it cheaper with an
> electronic crossover plus extra power amps.
>

Thanks, yes, it was the extra power amp(s).

> Behringer (and others) do fully programmable crossovers. At quite a
> reasonable price, as they're made in big quantities for PA use. Variable
> crossover type and slope. And (limited) EQ on each channel too, for
> smoothing things out. You could use one for setting up - then duplicate
> the curves in a non adjustable one. And flog the Behringer afterwards.

I did look at https://www.behringer.com/product.html?modelCode=P0100
Behringer CX3400 - is this the type of thing you had in mind?

Although not ideal, I could use a Behringer power amp I happen to have to go
with the Quad 405-2 for testing.
--
Cheers, Rob

Re: Taming tweeters . . .

<jh9el2Fr25dU1@mid.individual.net>

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From: tre...@rageaudio.com.au (Trevor Wilson)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.audio
Subject: Re: Taming tweeters . . .
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2022 06:18:40 +1000
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 by: Trevor Wilson - Sun, 19 Jun 2022 20:18 UTC

On 20/06/2022 1:39 am, RJH wrote:
> On 19 Jun 2022 at 13:36:58 BST, "Dave Plowman wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>> Meantime, I've fitted some resistors and the speakers sound much improved.
>>
>> Some sophisticated crossovers include very expensive custom made chokes
>> and even auto-transformers. So quite possible to do it cheaper with an
>> electronic crossover plus extra power amps.
>>
>
> Thanks, yes, it was the extra power amp(s).
>
>> Behringer (and others) do fully programmable crossovers. At quite a
>> reasonable price, as they're made in big quantities for PA use. Variable
>> crossover type and slope. And (limited) EQ on each channel too, for
>> smoothing things out. You could use one for setting up - then duplicate
>> the curves in a non adjustable one. And flog the Behringer afterwards.
>
> I did look at https://www.behringer.com/product.html?modelCode=P0100
> Behringer CX3400 - is this the type of thing you had in mind?
>
> Although not ideal, I could use a Behringer power amp I happen to have to go
> with the Quad 405-2 for testing.

**This Behringer has been my go-to device for such purposes (and then some):

https://www.behringer.com/product.html?modelCode=P0146

Or:

https://www.behringer.com/product.html?modelCode=P0B0S

Steep learning curve, but very powerful device, sold at an extremely low
price. Second hand units are plentiful and cheap. Far, far more flexible
than any analogue crossover (like the CX3400 - which ain't bad).

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Re: Taming tweeters . . .

<59fb8c18bedave@davenoise.co.uk>

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From: dav...@davenoise.co.uk (Dave Plowman (News))
Newsgroups: uk.rec.audio
Subject: Re: Taming tweeters . . .
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2022 15:18:39 +0100
Organization: None
Message-ID: <59fb8c18bedave@davenoise.co.uk>
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 by: Dave Plowman (News) - Mon, 20 Jun 2022 14:18 UTC

In article <t8nfvt$cg8$1@dont-email.me>,
RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote:
> On 19 Jun 2022 at 13:36:58 BST, "Dave Plowman wrote:

> >
> >
> >> Meantime, I've fitted some resistors and the speakers sound much improved.
> >
> > Some sophisticated crossovers include very expensive custom made chokes
> > and even auto-transformers. So quite possible to do it cheaper with an
> > electronic crossover plus extra power amps.
> >

> Thanks, yes, it was the extra power amp(s).

> > Behringer (and others) do fully programmable crossovers. At quite a
> > reasonable price, as they're made in big quantities for PA use. Variable
> > crossover type and slope. And (limited) EQ on each channel too, for
> > smoothing things out. You could use one for setting up - then duplicate
> > the curves in a non adjustable one. And flog the Behringer afterwards.

> I did look at https://www.behringer.com/product.html?modelCode=P0100
> Behringer CX3400 - is this the type of thing you had in mind?

It's not bad - but not as good as the DCX2496, which is digital. And I've
played - a lot - with both. The DCX 2496 can store setups so allow instant
comparison Between before and after. Each band also has two lots of EQ.
Ideal for bass lift to the bass driver, or smoothing out the odd peak. It
is a remarkable bit of kit at the price - and easy to sell on afterwards,
if you wish.

> Although not ideal, I could use a Behringer power amp I happen to have
> to go with the Quad 405-2 for testing.

The output levels are enough for any amp, I'd say. But then you'd do one
speaker at a time.

--
*Reality? Is that where the pizza delivery guy comes from?

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Re: Taming tweeters . . .

<59fb7eeb57noise@audiomisc.co.uk>

 copy mid

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From: noi...@audiomisc.co.uk (Jim Lesurf)
Subject: Re: Taming tweeters . . .
Newsgroups: uk.rec.audio
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2022 12:54:43 +0100
Message-ID: <59fb7eeb57noise@audiomisc.co.uk>
References: <t5r3oq$2p8$1@dont-email.me> <62811af0.24941859@news.eternal-september.org> <t5r9ps$fnb$1@dont-email.me> <59e98775e3dave@davenoise.co.uk> <t8l5d9$apm$1@dont-email.me> <59fafef37ddave@davenoise.co.uk>
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 by: Jim Lesurf - Mon, 20 Jun 2022 11:54 UTC

In article <59fafef37ddave@davenoise.co.uk>, Dave Plowman (News)
<dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> Behringer (and others) do fully programmable crossovers. At quite a
> reasonable price, as they're made in big quantities for PA use. Variable
> crossover type and slope. And (limited) EQ on each channel too, for
> smoothing things out. You could use one for setting up - then duplicate
> the curves in a non adjustable one. And flog the Behringer afterwards.

I've been wondering about one of these as perhaps being useful as a
flexible EQ for suitable 'tone control' - e.g. to mimic the sorts of
control on a QUAD 34 but with altered details + a presence band lift/cut
tune. Any suggestions as to what models to look at? Behringer seem to have
a patchy history wrt quality. As a result I've ended up avoiding their USB
ADCs/DACs and preferring the Scarlett range.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
biog http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

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From: dav...@davenoise.co.uk (Dave Plowman (News))
Newsgroups: uk.rec.audio
Subject: Re: Taming tweeters . . .
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2022 15:12:29 +0100
Organization: None
Message-ID: <59fc0f5e42dave@davenoise.co.uk>
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 by: Dave Plowman (News) - Tue, 21 Jun 2022 14:12 UTC

In article <59fb7eeb57noise@audiomisc.co.uk>,
Jim Lesurf <noise@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <59fafef37ddave@davenoise.co.uk>, Dave Plowman (News)
> <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> > Behringer (and others) do fully programmable crossovers. At quite a
> > reasonable price, as they're made in big quantities for PA use.
> > Variable crossover type and slope. And (limited) EQ on each channel
> > too, for smoothing things out. You could use one for setting up - then
> > duplicate the curves in a non adjustable one. And flog the Behringer
> > afterwards.

> I've been wondering about one of these as perhaps being useful as a
> flexible EQ for suitable 'tone control' - e.g. to mimic the sorts of
> control on a QUAD 34 but with altered details + a presence band lift/cut
> tune. Any suggestions as to what models to look at? Behringer seem to
> have a patchy history wrt quality. As a result I've ended up avoiding
> their USB ADCs/DACs and preferring the Scarlett range.

Behringer does seem a bit variable. But the right bits can be pretty
decent and good value for money.

If you just want programmable EQ, the Ultra-Curve Pro DEQ 2496 should do
what you want. It's in several parts. Conventional graphic EQ and sections
where you 'build' your own in software. Stereo and can be ganged or
totally independant. You can feed in a mic and get it to auto EQ your
speakers to your room. All designed for pleasure as well as wasting time.
;-)

If you power it down it bypasses via relays. Or you can bypass it in its
software.

My main use for it now is to add a hefty presence peak to make the more
arty TV dramas intelligible. Bloody radio mics. ;-)

Think I first used it on Jamaica Inn. A BBC drama where there were lots of
complaints about audibility. Whispered dialogue and high background levels.

And obvious why. EQ the radio mics so they sounded half decent, and
clothing rustle was very apparent with any movement. Made me wonder just
where they got their sound men and costume department from. Or too scared
for their jobs to sort things.

--
*Black holes are where God divided by zero *

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Re: Taming tweeters . . .

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From: patchmo...@gmx.com (RJH)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.audio
Subject: Re: Taming tweeters . . .
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2022 15:44:11 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: RJH - Tue, 21 Jun 2022 15:44 UTC

On 19 Jun 2022 at 21:18:40 BST, Trevor Wilson wrote:

> On 20/06/2022 1:39 am, RJH wrote:
>> On 19 Jun 2022 at 13:36:58 BST, "Dave Plowman wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Meantime, I've fitted some resistors and the speakers sound much improved.
>>>
>>> Some sophisticated crossovers include very expensive custom made chokes
>>> and even auto-transformers. So quite possible to do it cheaper with an
>>> electronic crossover plus extra power amps.
>>>
>>
>> Thanks, yes, it was the extra power amp(s).
>>
>>> Behringer (and others) do fully programmable crossovers. At quite a
>>> reasonable price, as they're made in big quantities for PA use. Variable
>>> crossover type and slope. And (limited) EQ on each channel too, for
>>> smoothing things out. You could use one for setting up - then duplicate
>>> the curves in a non adjustable one. And flog the Behringer afterwards.
>>
>> I did look at https://www.behringer.com/product.html?modelCode=P0100
>> Behringer CX3400 - is this the type of thing you had in mind?
>>
>> Although not ideal, I could use a Behringer power amp I happen to have to go
>> with the Quad 405-2 for testing.
>
> **This Behringer has been my go-to device for such purposes (and then some):
>
> https://www.behringer.com/product.html?modelCode=P0146
>
> Or:
>
> https://www.behringer.com/product.html?modelCode=P0B0S
>
> Steep learning curve, but very powerful device, sold at an extremely low
> price. Second hand units are plentiful and cheap. Far, far more flexible
> than any analogue crossover (like the CX3400 - which ain't bad).

Thanks for that (and to Dave for the similar suggestion). I'll have a look at
the manuals and take it from there . . .

--
Cheers, Rob

Re: Taming tweeters . . .

<jhercnFnfm2U1@mid.individual.net>

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Newsgroups: uk.rec.audio
Subject: Re: Taming tweeters . . .
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 by: Trevor Wilson - Tue, 21 Jun 2022 21:26 UTC

On 22/06/2022 1:44 am, RJH wrote:
> On 19 Jun 2022 at 21:18:40 BST, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>
>> On 20/06/2022 1:39 am, RJH wrote:
>>> On 19 Jun 2022 at 13:36:58 BST, "Dave Plowman wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Meantime, I've fitted some resistors and the speakers sound much improved.
>>>>
>>>> Some sophisticated crossovers include very expensive custom made chokes
>>>> and even auto-transformers. So quite possible to do it cheaper with an
>>>> electronic crossover plus extra power amps.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks, yes, it was the extra power amp(s).
>>>
>>>> Behringer (and others) do fully programmable crossovers. At quite a
>>>> reasonable price, as they're made in big quantities for PA use. Variable
>>>> crossover type and slope. And (limited) EQ on each channel too, for
>>>> smoothing things out. You could use one for setting up - then duplicate
>>>> the curves in a non adjustable one. And flog the Behringer afterwards.
>>>
>>> I did look at https://www.behringer.com/product.html?modelCode=P0100
>>> Behringer CX3400 - is this the type of thing you had in mind?
>>>
>>> Although not ideal, I could use a Behringer power amp I happen to have to go
>>> with the Quad 405-2 for testing.
>>
>> **This Behringer has been my go-to device for such purposes (and then some):
>>
>> https://www.behringer.com/product.html?modelCode=P0146
>>
>> Or:
>>
>> https://www.behringer.com/product.html?modelCode=P0B0S
>>
>> Steep learning curve, but very powerful device, sold at an extremely low
>> price. Second hand units are plentiful and cheap. Far, far more flexible
>> than any analogue crossover (like the CX3400 - which ain't bad).
>
> Thanks for that (and to Dave for the similar suggestion). I'll have a look at
> the manuals and take it from there . . .
>

**Well worthwhile. The 2496 is enormously flexible. Slopes, different
filter types, frequencies, delays, etc, are all quickly and easily
implemented. The only downside is that, along with enormous flexibility,
comes complexity.

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Re: Taming tweeters . . .

<jherl9Fnh03U1@mid.individual.net>

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From: tre...@rageaudio.com.au (Trevor Wilson)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.audio
Subject: Re: Taming tweeters . . .
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2022 07:31:22 +1000
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 by: Trevor Wilson - Tue, 21 Jun 2022 21:31 UTC

On 20/06/2022 9:54 pm, Jim Lesurf wrote:
> In article <59fafef37ddave@davenoise.co.uk>, Dave Plowman (News)
> <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
>> Behringer (and others) do fully programmable crossovers. At quite a
>> reasonable price, as they're made in big quantities for PA use. Variable
>> crossover type and slope. And (limited) EQ on each channel too, for
>> smoothing things out. You could use one for setting up - then duplicate
>> the curves in a non adjustable one. And flog the Behringer afterwards.
>
> I've been wondering about one of these as perhaps being useful as a
> flexible EQ for suitable 'tone control' - e.g. to mimic the sorts of
> control on a QUAD 34 but with altered details + a presence band lift/cut
> tune. Any suggestions as to what models to look at? Behringer seem to have
> a patchy history wrt quality. As a result I've ended up avoiding their USB
> ADCs/DACs and preferring the Scarlett range.
>
> Jim
>

**In the case of the Behringer 2496, it is has a whole host of features
that Quad cannot hope to emulate. The big one being that the 2496 does
not shift phase, like all analogue controls will do. However, there are
many other digital equalisers that can manage that feat. If the
electronic crossover function of the 2496 is not required, then,
perhaps, another device might be more appropriate. Still, at the price
of the Behringer....

As for quality, Behringer products are not what I would call stellar,
but they're adequate and commensurate with their pricing. IOW: They're
not crap.

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