Is Cisco very different to other networking equipment (ie. routers and
switches) ?

If I know how to use Cisco, can I handle any other equipment ?

On 5/07/2021 1:25 pm, Max wrote:
> Is Cisco very different to other networking equipment (ie. routers and
> switches) ?
>
> If I know how to use Cisco, can I handle any other equipment ?

I mean that if I can use Cisco routers and switches, will I be able to
handle any other manufacturer's routers and switches ?

Max <max@val.morgan> wrote

> Is Cisco very different to other networking
> equipment (ie. routers and switches) ?

Yes.
> If I know how to use Cisco, can
> I handle any other equipment ?

No.

"Max" <max@val.morgan> wrote in message news:sbtufq$qji$1@gioia.aioe.org...
> On 5/07/2021 1:25 pm, Max wrote:
>> Is Cisco very different to other networking equipment (ie. routers and
>> switches) ?
>>
>> If I know how to use Cisco, can I handle any other equipment ?
>
> I mean that if I can use Cisco routers and switches, will I be able to
> handle any other manufacturer's routers and switches ?

No.

On 5/07/2021 3:32 pm, Rod Speed wrote:
>
>
> "Max" <max@val.morgan> wrote in message news:sbtufq$qji$1@gioia.aioe.org...
>> On 5/07/2021 1:25 pm, Max wrote:
>>> Is Cisco very different to other networking equipment (ie. routers
>>> and switches) ?
>>>
>>> If I know how to use Cisco, can I handle any other equipment ?
>>
>> I mean that if I can use Cisco routers and switches, will I be able to
>> handle any other manufacturer's routers and switches ?
>
> No.

My uni lecturer says they are very similar and I would be able to use
the other equipment - would just have to check the manuals quickly.

"Max" <max@val.morgan> wrote in message news:sbugb4$vh5$1@gioia.aioe.org...
> On 5/07/2021 3:32 pm, Rod Speed wrote:
>>
>>
>> "Max" <max@val.morgan> wrote in message
>> news:sbtufq$qji$1@gioia.aioe.org...
>>> On 5/07/2021 1:25 pm, Max wrote:
>>>> Is Cisco very different to other networking equipment (ie. routers and
>>>> switches) ?
>>>>
>>>> If I know how to use Cisco, can I handle any other equipment ?
>>>
>>> I mean that if I can use Cisco routers and switches, will I be able to
>>> handle any other manufacturer's routers and switches ?
>>
>> No.

> My uni lecturer says they are very similar

It doesn’t have a fucking clue.

> and I would be able to use the other equipment - would just have to check
> the manuals quickly.

It doesn’t have a fucking clue.

On 5/07/2021 6:36 pm, Max wrote:
> On 5/07/2021 3:32 pm, Rod Speed wrote:
>>
>>
>> "Max" <max@val.morgan> wrote in message
>> news:sbtufq$qji$1@gioia.aioe.org...
>>> On 5/07/2021 1:25 pm, Max wrote:
>>>> Is Cisco very different to other networking equipment (ie. routers
>>>> and switches) ?
>>>>
>>>> If I know how to use Cisco, can I handle any other equipment ?
>>>
>>> I mean that if I can use Cisco routers and switches, will I be able
>>> to handle any other manufacturer's routers and switches ?
>>
>> No.
>
> My uni lecturer says they are very similar and I would be able to use
> the other equipment - would just have to check the manuals quickly.
Seriously?

Cisco uses it's own IOS and most units using that use a command set
specific to Cisco gear. They are now allowing some units to be
programmed using Python scripting.

Meraki which is owned by Cisco uses an online web based configuration
with very limited local control and you pay a yearly fee to manage your
gear.

Juniper uses Junos it's own operating system with it's own commands.

HP / Aruba uses a different operating system again with a different
command set.

I'm a qualified cisco routing and switching tech as well as a qualified
cisco data centre tech.

Whilst they have similar commands, the way things are done requires more
than just looking up the manual.

I have worked on HP and Juniper gear however generally I only install
the hardware and then install a base configuration and give remote
control access to someone else to configure it.

With Cisco gear I can configure and troubleshoot it from scratch.

On 6/07/2021 7:13 am, Grumpy Tech wrote:
> On 5/07/2021 6:36 pm, Max wrote:
>> On 5/07/2021 3:32 pm, Rod Speed wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> "Max" <max@val.morgan> wrote in message
>>> news:sbtufq$qji$1@gioia.aioe.org...
>>>> On 5/07/2021 1:25 pm, Max wrote:
>>>>> Is Cisco very different to other networking equipment (ie. routers
>>>>> and switches) ?
>>>>>
>>>>> If I know how to use Cisco, can I handle any other equipment ?
>>>>
>>>> I mean that if I can use Cisco routers and switches, will I be able
>>>> to handle any other manufacturer's routers and switches ?
>>>
>>> No.
>>
>> My uni lecturer says they are very similar and I would be able to use
>> the other equipment - would just have to check the manuals quickly.
> Seriously?
>
> Cisco uses it's own IOS and most units using that use a command set
> specific to Cisco gear. They are now allowing some units to be
> programmed using Python scripting.
>
> Meraki which is owned by Cisco uses an online web based configuration
> with very limited local control and you pay a yearly fee to manage your
> gear.
>
> Juniper uses Junos it's own operating system with it's own commands.
>
> HP / Aruba uses a different operating system again with a different
> command set.
>
> I'm a qualified cisco routing and switching tech as well as a qualified
> cisco data centre tech.
>
> Whilst they have similar commands, the way things are done requires more
> than just looking up the manual.
>
> I have worked on HP and Juniper gear however generally I only install
> the hardware and then install a base configuration and give remote
> control access to someone else to configure it.
>
> With Cisco gear I can configure and troubleshoot it from scratch.

This is what my lecturer said about the course I just did:

"All of the topics covered are open standard and work the same on other
vendors' machines, except for the actual implementation commands, which
do vary from systems to systems (however most follow Cisco's convention
or their commands often remind you about Cisco's convention)."

Based on this, I would expect using other vendors' equipment to be as
easy as Googling "how do you configure OSPF on Juniper" and having a
quick read.

Am I kidding myself ?

On 5/07/2021 7:18 pm, Rod Speed wrote:
>
>
> "Max" <max@val.morgan> wrote in message news:sbugb4$vh5$1@gioia.aioe.org...
>> On 5/07/2021 3:32 pm, Rod Speed wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> "Max" <max@val.morgan> wrote in message
>>> news:sbtufq$qji$1@gioia.aioe.org...
>>>> On 5/07/2021 1:25 pm, Max wrote:
>>>>> Is Cisco very different to other networking equipment (ie. routers
>>>>> and switches) ?
>>>>>
>>>>> If I know how to use Cisco, can I handle any other equipment ?
>>>>
>>>> I mean that if I can use Cisco routers and switches, will I be able
>>>> to handle any other manufacturer's routers and switches ?
>>>
>>> No.
>
>> My uni lecturer says they are very similar
>
> It doesn’t have a fucking clue.
>
>> and I would be able to use the other equipment - would just have to
>> check the manuals quickly.
>
> It doesn’t have a fucking clue.

Really? Would you get a job at uni teaching networking?

On 6/07/2021 9:23 am, Max wrote:
> On 6/07/2021 7:13 am, Grumpy Tech wrote:
>> On 5/07/2021 6:36 pm, Max wrote:
>>> On 5/07/2021 3:32 pm, Rod Speed wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Max" <max@val.morgan> wrote in message
>>>> news:sbtufq$qji$1@gioia.aioe.org...
>>>>> On 5/07/2021 1:25 pm, Max wrote:
>>>>>> Is Cisco very different to other networking equipment (ie. routers
>>>>>> and switches) ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If I know how to use Cisco, can I handle any other equipment ?
>>>>>
>>>>> I mean that if I can use Cisco routers and switches, will I be able
>>>>> to handle any other manufacturer's routers and switches ?
>>>>
>>>> No.
>>>
>>> My uni lecturer says they are very similar and I would be able to use
>>> the other equipment - would just have to check the manuals quickly.
>> Seriously?
>>
>> Cisco uses it's own IOS and most units using that use a command set
>> specific to Cisco gear. They are now allowing some units to be
>> programmed using Python scripting.
>>
>> Meraki which is owned by Cisco uses an online web based configuration
>> with very limited local control and you pay a yearly fee to manage
>> your gear.
>>
>> Juniper uses Junos it's own operating system with it's own commands.
>>
>> HP / Aruba uses a different operating system again with a different
>> command set.
>>
>> I'm a qualified cisco routing and switching tech as well as a
>> qualified cisco data centre tech.
>>
>> Whilst they have similar commands, the way things are done requires
>> more than just looking up the manual.
>>
>> I have worked on HP and Juniper gear however generally I only install
>> the hardware and then install a base configuration and give remote
>> control access to someone else to configure it.
>>
>> With Cisco gear I can configure and troubleshoot it from scratch.
>
> This is what my lecturer said about the course I just did:
>
> "All of the topics covered are open standard and work the same on other
> vendors' machines, except for the actual implementation commands, which
> do vary from systems to systems (however most follow Cisco's convention
> or their commands often remind you about Cisco's convention)."
>
> Based on this, I would expect using other vendors' equipment to be as
> easy as Googling "how do you configure OSPF on Juniper" and having a
> quick read.
>
> Am I kidding myself ?

The basics of networking are the same, however the implementation varies
greatly and despite what your lecturer states it is not at all similar.

For example to upgrade the IOS on a Cisco device.
https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/td/docs/ios/cable/configuration/guide/ios_sw_inst_upgr.pdf

To upgrade the IOS on a HP device

https://support.hpe.com/hpesc/public/docDisplay?docId=emr_na-c04725302

Most of the commands are the same however in some cases there is a menu
system to follow on HP devices.

To upgrade the IOS on a Juniper device
https://www.juniper.net/documentation/us/en/software/junos/junos-install-upgrade/topics/topic-map/install-software-on-ex.html

That's just the basics, let alone enabling licensing on Cisco products
to enable security feature sets etc. There are also different IOS
products for the same unit that allow different features.

If you really want to get into networking you really need to look at
vendor specific training. Cisco and Juniper are very well supported both
by their own, and third party training such as CBT nuggets.

If you want to practice get a hold of the Cisco Packet Tracer software
and some example configurations to test out your knowledge.

On 6/07/2021 9:56 am, Grumpy Tech wrote:
> On 6/07/2021 9:23 am, Max wrote:
>> On 6/07/2021 7:13 am, Grumpy Tech wrote:
>>> On 5/07/2021 6:36 pm, Max wrote:
>>>> On 5/07/2021 3:32 pm, Rod Speed wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Max" <max@val.morgan> wrote in message
>>>>> news:sbtufq$qji$1@gioia.aioe.org...
>>>>>> On 5/07/2021 1:25 pm, Max wrote:
>>>>>>> Is Cisco very different to other networking equipment (ie.
>>>>>>> routers and switches) ?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If I know how to use Cisco, can I handle any other equipment ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I mean that if I can use Cisco routers and switches, will I be
>>>>>> able to handle any other manufacturer's routers and switches ?
>>>>>
>>>>> No.
>>>>
>>>> My uni lecturer says they are very similar and I would be able to
>>>> use the other equipment - would just have to check the manuals quickly.
>>> Seriously?
>>>
>>> Cisco uses it's own IOS and most units using that use a command set
>>> specific to Cisco gear. They are now allowing some units to be
>>> programmed using Python scripting.
>>>
>>> Meraki which is owned by Cisco uses an online web based configuration
>>> with very limited local control and you pay a yearly fee to manage
>>> your gear.
>>>
>>> Juniper uses Junos it's own operating system with it's own commands.
>>>
>>> HP / Aruba uses a different operating system again with a different
>>> command set.
>>>
>>> I'm a qualified cisco routing and switching tech as well as a
>>> qualified cisco data centre tech.
>>>
>>> Whilst they have similar commands, the way things are done requires
>>> more than just looking up the manual.
>>>
>>> I have worked on HP and Juniper gear however generally I only install
>>> the hardware and then install a base configuration and give remote
>>> control access to someone else to configure it.
>>>
>>> With Cisco gear I can configure and troubleshoot it from scratch.
>>
>> This is what my lecturer said about the course I just did:
>>
>> "All of the topics covered are open standard and work the same on
>> other vendors' machines, except for the actual implementation
>> commands, which do vary from systems to systems (however most follow
>> Cisco's convention or their commands often remind you about Cisco's
>> convention)."
>>
>> Based on this, I would expect using other vendors' equipment to be as
>> easy as Googling "how do you configure OSPF on Juniper" and having a
>> quick read.
>>
>> Am I kidding myself ?
>
> The basics of networking are the same, however the implementation varies
> greatly and despite what your lecturer states it is not at all similar.
>
> For example to upgrade the IOS on a Cisco device.
> https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/td/docs/ios/cable/configuration/guide/ios_sw_inst_upgr.pdf
>
>
> To upgrade the IOS on a HP device
>
> https://support.hpe.com/hpesc/public/docDisplay?docId=emr_na-c04725302
>
> Most of the commands are the same however in some cases there is a menu
> system to follow on HP devices.
>
> To upgrade the IOS on a Juniper device
> https://www.juniper.net/documentation/us/en/software/junos/junos-install-upgrade/topics/topic-map/install-software-on-ex.html
>

Ok, thanks for the links, that's interesting, but is there anything
wrong with me consulting the documentation if I am asked to work with
certain equipment?

>
>
> That's just the basics, let alone enabling licensing on Cisco products
> to enable security feature sets etc. There are also different IOS
> products for the same unit that allow different features.
>
> If you really want to get into networking you really need to look at
> vendor specific training. Cisco and Juniper are very well supported both
> by their own, and third party training such as CBT nuggets.
>
> If you want to practice get a hold of the Cisco Packet Tracer software
> and some example configurations to test out your knowledge.

I have just done a 6 month networking subject at university which
covered Cisco equipment and I used Packet Tracer a lot.

Seems to me that the fundamental concepts will be the same across
vendors, judging by what the university lecturer has said above. It is
to be expected in IT work that you come across things that you need to
look up documentation for.

I don't like the attitude that if you can't immediately do something
within 10 seconds that means you can't do it and need to do a vendor cert.

I see vendor certs as pointless because they expire after 3 years and
are only valid for a certain vendor's equipment. If you are saying the
equipment is different across vendors then what is the point?

My aim is to be able to be able to handle all equipment that I come
across. If that means I have to look up documentation while I am on the
job, then so be it.

That is how I see that IT works - I have been programming for 15 years
and am constantly looking up documentation on the job.

On Tue, 6 Jul 2021 12:39:16 +1000, Max <max@val.morgan> wrote:

>On 6/07/2021 9:56 am, Grumpy Tech wrote:
>> On 6/07/2021 9:23 am, Max wrote:
>>> On 6/07/2021 7:13 am, Grumpy Tech wrote:
>>>> On 5/07/2021 6:36 pm, Max wrote:
>>>>> On 5/07/2021 3:32 pm, Rod Speed wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Max" <max@val.morgan> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:sbtufq$qji$1@gioia.aioe.org...
>>>>>>> On 5/07/2021 1:25 pm, Max wrote:
>>>>>>>> Is Cisco very different to other networking equipment (ie.
>>>>>>>> routers and switches) ?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If I know how to use Cisco, can I handle any other equipment ?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I mean that if I can use Cisco routers and switches, will I be
>>>>>>> able to handle any other manufacturer's routers and switches ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No.
>>>>>
>>>>> My uni lecturer says they are very similar and I would be able to
>>>>> use the other equipment - would just have to check the manuals quickly.
>>>> Seriously?
>>>>
>>>> Cisco uses it's own IOS and most units using that use a command set
>>>> specific to Cisco gear. They are now allowing some units to be
>>>> programmed using Python scripting.
>>>>
>>>> Meraki which is owned by Cisco uses an online web based configuration
>>>> with very limited local control and you pay a yearly fee to manage
>>>> your gear.
>>>>
>>>> Juniper uses Junos it's own operating system with it's own commands.
>>>>
>>>> HP / Aruba uses a different operating system again with a different
>>>> command set.
>>>>
>>>> I'm a qualified cisco routing and switching tech as well as a
>>>> qualified cisco data centre tech.
>>>>
>>>> Whilst they have similar commands, the way things are done requires
>>>> more than just looking up the manual.
>>>>
>>>> I have worked on HP and Juniper gear however generally I only install
>>>> the hardware and then install a base configuration and give remote
>>>> control access to someone else to configure it.
>>>>
>>>> With Cisco gear I can configure and troubleshoot it from scratch.
>>>
>>> This is what my lecturer said about the course I just did:
>>>
>>> "All of the topics covered are open standard and work the same on
>>> other vendors' machines, except for the actual implementation
>>> commands, which do vary from systems to systems (however most follow
>>> Cisco's convention or their commands often remind you about Cisco's
>>> convention)."
>>>
>>> Based on this, I would expect using other vendors' equipment to be as
>>> easy as Googling "how do you configure OSPF on Juniper" and having a
>>> quick read.
>>>
>>> Am I kidding myself ?
>>
>> The basics of networking are the same, however the implementation varies
>> greatly and despite what your lecturer states it is not at all similar.
>>
>> For example to upgrade the IOS on a Cisco device.
>> https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/td/docs/ios/cable/configuration/guide/ios_sw_inst_upgr.pdf
>>
>>
>> To upgrade the IOS on a HP device
>>
>> https://support.hpe.com/hpesc/public/docDisplay?docId=emr_na-c04725302
>>
>> Most of the commands are the same however in some cases there is a menu
>> system to follow on HP devices.
>>
>> To upgrade the IOS on a Juniper device
>> https://www.juniper.net/documentation/us/en/software/junos/junos-install-upgrade/topics/topic-map/install-software-on-ex.html
>>
>
>Ok, thanks for the links, that's interesting, but is there anything
>wrong with me consulting the documentation if I am asked to work with
>certain equipment?
>
>
>>
>>
>> That's just the basics, let alone enabling licensing on Cisco products
>> to enable security feature sets etc. There are also different IOS
>> products for the same unit that allow different features.
>>
>> If you really want to get into networking you really need to look at
>> vendor specific training. Cisco and Juniper are very well supported both
>> by their own, and third party training such as CBT nuggets.
>>
>> If you want to practice get a hold of the Cisco Packet Tracer software
>> and some example configurations to test out your knowledge.
>
>I have just done a 6 month networking subject at university which
>covered Cisco equipment and I used Packet Tracer a lot.
>
>Seems to me that the fundamental concepts will be the same across
>vendors, judging by what the university lecturer has said above. It is
>to be expected in IT work that you come across things that you need to
>look up documentation for.
>
>I don't like the attitude that if you can't immediately do something
>within 10 seconds that means you can't do it and need to do a vendor cert.
>
>I see vendor certs as pointless because they expire after 3 years and
>are only valid for a certain vendor's equipment. If you are saying the
>equipment is different across vendors then what is the point?
>
>My aim is to be able to be able to handle all equipment that I come
>across. If that means I have to look up documentation while I am on the
>job, then so be it.
>
>That is how I see that IT works - I have been programming for 15 years
>and am constantly looking up documentation on the job.

Little to do with Cisco mail servers other than provide a cool air
conditioned environment.
--
Petzl
"When you let people into your country that hate everything about you and your heritage,
there's a good chance they will kill you."

Max <max@val.morgan> wrote:
>
> That is how I see that IT works - I have been programming for 15 years
> and am constantly looking up documentation on the job.

Programming for 15 years? Yeah right. Just more trolling.

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#

"Max" <max@val.morgan> wrote in message news:sc04gd$k0l$2@gioia.aioe.org...
> On 5/07/2021 7:18 pm, Rod Speed wrote:
>>
>>
>> "Max" <max@val.morgan> wrote in message
>> news:sbugb4$vh5$1@gioia.aioe.org...
>>> On 5/07/2021 3:32 pm, Rod Speed wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Max" <max@val.morgan> wrote in message
>>>> news:sbtufq$qji$1@gioia.aioe.org...
>>>>> On 5/07/2021 1:25 pm, Max wrote:
>>>>>> Is Cisco very different to other networking equipment (ie. routers
>>>>>> and switches) ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If I know how to use Cisco, can I handle any other equipment ?
>>>>>
>>>>> I mean that if I can use Cisco routers and switches, will I be able to
>>>>> handle any other manufacturer's routers and switches ?
>>>>
>>>> No.
>>
>>> My uni lecturer says they are very similar
>>
>> It doesn’t have a fucking clue.
>>
>>> and I would be able to use the other equipment - would just have to
>>> check the manuals quickly.
>>
>> It doesn’t have a fucking clue.
>
> Really?

Yep..

> Would you get a job at uni teaching networking?

Yep, and have done.

On 6/07/2021 2:10 pm, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
> Max <max@val.morgan> wrote:
>>
>> That is how I see that IT works - I have been programming for 15 years
>> and am constantly looking up documentation on the job.
>
> Programming for 15 years? Yeah right. Just more trolling.
>

Do you want to start a year long argument like you had with Rod Speed ?

On 6/07/2021 12:39 pm, Max wrote:
> On 6/07/2021 9:56 am, Grumpy Tech wrote:

>> If you really want to get into networking you really need to look at
>> vendor specific training. Cisco and Juniper are very well supported
>> both by their own, and third party training such as CBT nuggets.
>>
>> If you want to practice get a hold of the Cisco Packet Tracer software
>> and some example configurations to test out your knowledge.
>
> I have just done a 6 month networking subject at university which
> covered Cisco equipment and I used Packet Tracer a lot.
>
> Seems to me that the fundamental concepts will be the same across
> vendors, judging by what the university lecturer has said above. It is
> to be expected in IT work that you come across things that you need to
> look up documentation for.

No question about that. I do it all the time.
>
> I don't like the attitude that if you can't immediately do something
> within 10 seconds that means you can't do it and need to do a vendor cert.

In order to work on Cisco equipment as a field service technician I need
a vendor cert. It expires every 3 years because the equipment changes.
You cannot work in it without doing continuing education especially in
networking. Trust me when I say it is a bloody lot harder to configure a
Cisco 4331 than it is to configure a Cisco 800 series router. The reason
is that you can do a lot more with the 4331 than you can with an 800
series and if you do not have access to Cisco's training and information
you will not be able to understand the differences. If you want to start
programming them properly the minimum you need is a ccna. To
troubleshoot issues you start looking at a CCNP.

> I see vendor certs as pointless because they expire after 3 years and
> are only valid for a certain vendor's equipment. If you are saying the
> equipment is different across vendors then what is the point?

It's much easier to get a job if you can show you have the vendor cert
than just saying you did six months at uni in networking. University
gives you an understanding of the basic concepts, but to really get to
know the equipment you need vendor specific training.

> My aim is to be able to be able to handle all equipment that I come
> across.  If that means I have to look up documentation while I am on the
> job, then so be it.

That will not get you very far when some of the information is only
available to those who have a valid account with the vendor. For example
to get the latest IOS for a cisco device you have to have a Cisco
account. You can of course download from the dark web however you might
get a number of nasty surprises on your network in a very short space of
time.

> That is how I see that IT works - I have been programming for 15 years
> and am constantly looking up documentation on the job.

Everyone does, but it really helps at 2am in the morning when your
having issues with a four switch stack to have access to the vendor
documentation portals to determine what the fault is. Of course you
could be talking to a Cisco vice engineer and you can only do that if
you have the right qualifications and access to their specialty app.

You're what I call in the industry a cowboy. You know enough to be
dangerous and one of these days it will shoot you in the foot.

i have more qualifications than the ones I mentioned and extensive
experience in working in IT. I'm semi retired now and pick and choose
what I do. BTW if the course you did was part of a Masters in IT I did
the same university course. I got a HD in that networking subject. All
the industry certifications and training made it easy.

On 6/07/2021 2:10 pm, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
> Max <max@val.morgan> wrote:
>>
>> That is how I see that IT works - I have been programming for 15 years
>> and am constantly looking up documentation on the job.
>
> Programming for 15 years? Yeah right. Just more trolling.
>
His attitude suggests he is a cowboy. It will eventually shoot him in
the foot.

Apart from which most employers look very favourably on industry
certifications and really don't look that much at Uni qualifications as
most uni qualifications only give you the basics. You learn much more
through the Industry qualifications. It also generally means you are not
a greenhorn.

On 06/07/2021 14:50, Grumpy Tech wrote:
> On 6/07/2021 2:10 pm, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>> Max <max@val.morgan> wrote:
>>>
>>> That is how I see that IT works - I have been programming for 15 years
>>> and am constantly looking up documentation on the job.
>>
>> Programming for 15 years? Yeah right. Just more trolling.
>>
> His attitude suggests he is a cowboy. It will eventually shoot him in
> the foot.
>
> Apart from which most employers look very favourably on industry
> certifications and really don't look that much at Uni qualifications as
> most uni qualifications only give you the basics. You learn much more
> through the Industry qualifications. It also generally means you are not
> a greenhorn.
>
>
Well, yes and no - but then I did my CS degree back in the days when you
were given a bucket of sand, a rock, and a flint on day one of CS-101
and had to melt your own silicon. :-)

A degree (theoretically) tells a prospective employer that you know how
to learn, think, and maybe even solve problems, but there is no
guarantee that what you were taught is still current, or, indeed, the
inverse, that what you have been taught is too new and the employer
wants people who can work on old gear.

But unless I was hiring for something architecture-neutral, green-field,
or extremely customised, (like AARNET in the early days), I would be
looking for those vendor-certifications.

I don't have the budget or time for you to learn how Juniper gear
differs from Cisco, (or vice-versa), you're going to be too busy
learning just how the networks are configured and what is required to be
able to do your job, there isn't time for you to look up a Rosetta
Stone. (NOTE: This is *not* a good thing, it is, sadly, reality.)

Occasionally my employers suggest that I might like to do an MBA in
something, it's never happened because how can I take a class seriously
when it's run by some luser I taught everything they subsequently forgot
years ago?? ;->

Cheers,
Gary B-)

--
Waiting for a new signature to suggest itself...

On 6/07/2021 4:34 pm, Gary R. Schmidt wrote:
> On 06/07/2021 14:50, Grumpy Tech wrote:
>> On 6/07/2021 2:10 pm, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>> Max <max@val.morgan> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> That is how I see that IT works - I have been programming for 15 years
>>>> and am constantly looking up documentation on the job.
>>>
>>> Programming for 15 years? Yeah right. Just more trolling.
>>>
>> His attitude suggests he is a cowboy. It will eventually shoot him in
>> the foot.
>>
>> Apart from which most employers look very favourably on industry
>> certifications and really don't look that much at Uni qualifications
>> as most uni qualifications only give you the basics. You learn much
>> more through the Industry qualifications. It also generally means you
>> are not a greenhorn.
>>
>>
> Well, yes and no - but then I did my CS degree back in the days when you
> were given a bucket of sand, a rock, and a flint on day one of CS-101
> and had to melt your own silicon.  :-)

You forgot to mention you wrote and compiled your OpSys in machine
language! ;-)
>
> A degree (theoretically) tells a prospective employer that you know how
> to learn, think, and maybe even solve problems, but there is no
> guarantee that what you were taught is still current, or, indeed, the
> inverse, that what you have been taught is too new and the employer
> wants people who can work on old gear.

Therein lies the problem in the IT industry. I'm old school and learnt
through a combination of studies and trial and error. One thing that
cannot be taught is being observant and methodical.

> But unless I was hiring for something architecture-neutral, green-field,
>  or extremely customised, (like AARNET in the early days), I would be
> looking for those vendor-certifications.

One of the hardest parts now is that IT is a VERY diverse field and you
cannot possibly know it all. You also never know what you are going to
be asked to do next so being adaptable and resourceful is almost
mandatory. The vendor certifications give an employer an idea that you
have a skillset that is recognised by the industry. It allows them to
choose the better person for a role. For example you would not choose a
person who has specialised in help desk / service desk environments to
run your data centre. You would look for someone who had the right
industry certs, had experience in data centres and preferably worked on
similar equipment. if you can't get that you would look at the candidate
who was the closest match and offer them the opportunity to get the
relevant certifications.

> I don't have the budget or time for you to learn how Juniper gear
> differs from Cisco, (or vice-versa), you're going to be too busy
> learning just how the networks are configured and what is required to be
> able to do your job, there isn't time for you to look up a Rosetta
> Stone.  (NOTE: This is *not* a good thing, it is, sadly, reality.)

Absolutely. There is a time and place though when you have to look at
manuals etc, for example I used to repair a well known manufacturers
notebooks / pc's. Without looking at a service manual some machines were
impossible to take apart. Then again some of the service manuals were
not correct either. In another instance when a manufacturer brought out
a new line of product there was no service manual or documentation you
could refer to for servicing it. I ended up photographing the equipment
highlighting the areas where screws were located and which parts needed
to be transferred to a new unit and wrote an in house service manual for
our network team. It had some specific configuration commands which
differed from their previous methods as well so those were outlined
in the service manual as well.

If you want to succeed you have to put the time into educating yourself
and that is a lot of the time done outside of work hours as during the
day you are too busy to stop and learn things. I was always brutally
honest with my employer and if I didn't know something I would say so
and not attempt to bluff my way through a job. Too many people are
afraid to say no out of fear of losing their jobs. Although if the
knowledge was needed to do the job I made sure I researched it in my own
time so that I could do the job in the future.

> Occasionally my employers suggest that I might like to do an MBA in
> something, it's never happened because how can I take a class seriously
> when it's run by some luser I taught everything they subsequently forgot
> years ago??  ;->
>

Therein lies the point I was trying to make to Max in that the only way
you can stay current in the IT field is by continuing education and
vendors want to make sure of that so they re-certify you every 3 years
to ensure you are keeping up with the changes.

Just acquiring a university education is not going to cut it anymore.
Most professions require continuing education to stay relevant and adapt
to new methodologies.

On 6/07/2021 2:47 pm, Grumpy Tech wrote:
> On 6/07/2021 12:39 pm, Max wrote:
>> On 6/07/2021 9:56 am, Grumpy Tech wrote:
>
>>> If you really want to get into networking you really need to look at
>>> vendor specific training. Cisco and Juniper are very well supported
>>> both by their own, and third party training such as CBT nuggets.
>>>
>>> If you want to practice get a hold of the Cisco Packet Tracer
>>> software and some example configurations to test out your knowledge.
>>
>> I have just done a 6 month networking subject at university which
>> covered Cisco equipment and I used Packet Tracer a lot.
>>
>> Seems to me that the fundamental concepts will be the same across
>> vendors, judging by what the university lecturer has said above. It is
>> to be expected in IT work that you come across things that you need to
>> look up documentation for.
>
> No question about that. I do it all the time.
>>
>> I don't like the attitude that if you can't immediately do something
>> within 10 seconds that means you can't do it and need to do a vendor
>> cert.
>
> In order to work on Cisco equipment as a field service technician I need
> a vendor cert. It expires every 3 years because the equipment changes.
> You cannot work in it without doing continuing education especially in
> networking. Trust me when I say it is a bloody lot harder to configure a
> Cisco 4331 than it is to configure a Cisco 800 series router. The reason
> is that you can do a lot more with the 4331 than you can with an 800
> series and if you do not have access to Cisco's training and information
> you will not be able to understand the differences. If you want to start
> programming them properly the minimum you need is a ccna. To
> troubleshoot issues you start looking at a CCNP.
>

From my experience in the subject I just did at uni which was probably
similar to CCNA, I found a lot of Cisco material for free online, even
though I was given access to the Cisco NetAcad.

If the client is a Cisco customer, won't they have an account and access
to the materials?

>> I see vendor certs as pointless because they expire after 3 years and
>> are only valid for a certain vendor's equipment. If you are saying the
>> equipment is different across vendors then what is the point?
>
> It's much easier to get a job if you can show you have the vendor cert
> than just saying you did six months at uni in networking. University
> gives you an understanding of the basic concepts, but to really get to
> know the equipment you need vendor specific training.
>

I'm not really trying to get a job - I have a full time job in
programming already. What I want to be able to do is one day set up a
business in a regional location and offer a full IT service (including
networking) to small and medium sized businesses.

It doesn't make sense for me to get vendor certs because I might come
across equipment from a different vendor.

>> My aim is to be able to be able to handle all equipment that I come
>> across.  If that means I have to look up documentation while I am on
>> the job, then so be it.
>
> That will not get you very far when some of the information is only
> available to those who have a valid account with the vendor. For example
> to get the latest IOS for a cisco device you have to have a Cisco
> account. You can of course download from the dark web however you might
> get a number of nasty surprises on your network in a very short space of
> time.
>

If the client is a Cisco customer then won't they have an account and login?

>> That is how I see that IT works - I have been programming for 15 years
>> and am constantly looking up documentation on the job.
>
> Everyone does, but it really helps at 2am in the morning when your
> having issues with a four switch stack to have access to the vendor
> documentation portals to determine what the fault is. Of course you
> could be talking to a Cisco vice engineer and you can only do that if
> you have the right qualifications and access to their specialty app.
>

So if Cisco certified, what happens if you're asked to work on other
equipment - do you have to decline?

For example, the place where I work has a range of different switches,
including Dell. I'm sure I could easily look up the documentation and
configure that if required, because I know the fundamentals.

> You're what I call in the industry a cowboy. You know enough to be
> dangerous and one of these days it will shoot you in the foot.
>

I'm the exact opposite. I've worked in a place that didn't do proper
testing and I have had to tell them how to do it.

> i have more qualifications than the ones I mentioned and extensive
> experience in working in IT. I'm semi retired now and pick and choose
> what I do. BTW if the course you did was part of a Masters in IT I did
> the same university course. I got a HD in that networking subject. All
> the industry certifications and training made it easy.

A uni subject like that is designed for people who have no prior
knowledge of it. What is the point of doing it if you have already know
the material?

I got over 90% for the subject which is an HD, and I had no prior knowledge.

On 7/07/2021 6:59 am, Grumpy Tech wrote:
> On 6/07/2021 4:34 pm, Gary R. Schmidt wrote:
>> Well, yes and no - but then I did my CS degree back in the days when
>> you were given a bucket of sand, a rock, and a flint on day one of
>> CS-101 and had to melt your own silicon.  :-)
>
> You forgot to mention you wrote and compiled your OpSys in machine
> language! ;-)

I once wrote a database in machine language, but it was a simple
database and I am old :)

In the old days fixing mainframes involved the ability to quickly come
up with machine language stuff because diagnostics were pretty well
no-existent

> Therein lies the point I was trying to make to Max in that the only way
> you can stay current in the IT field is by continuing education and
> vendors want to make sure of that so they re-certify you every 3 years
> to ensure you are keeping up with the changes.

In my experience, you have to re-learn your job every 3-5 years, those
that don't fall by the wayside.

> Just acquiring a university education is not going to cut it anymore.
> Most professions require continuing education to stay relevant and adapt
> to new methodologies.

In general, practical experience trumps a university course every time.

On 7/07/2021 4:14 pm, keithr0 wrote:
> On 7/07/2021 6:59 am, Grumpy Tech wrote:
>> On 6/07/2021 4:34 pm, Gary R. Schmidt wrote:
>>> Well, yes and no - but then I did my CS degree back in the days when
>>> you were given a bucket of sand, a rock, and a flint on day one of
>>> CS-101 and had to melt your own silicon.  :-)
>>
>> You forgot to mention you wrote and compiled your OpSys in machine
>> language! ;-)
>
> I once wrote a database in machine language, but it was a simple
> database and I am old :)

Pretty much forgotten all of it now. Used to program in basic, turbo
pascal, and vba for custom spreadsheets.
>
> In the old days fixing mainframes involved the ability to quickly come
> up with machine language stuff because diagnostics were pretty well
> no-existent

I guess my experience with setting up BBS's helped me to be able to
diagnose. God help anyone nowadays if stuff wasn't plug and play.
Remembering changing jumpers on interface cards to change the i/o
address and irq's. Wondering why a machine wouldn't boot and you find
two cards set at C800... The good old days and you lost the manual for
the i/o card and you might as well throw it away as nothing was printed
on the card!

>> Therein lies the point I was trying to make to Max in that the only
>> way you can stay current in the IT field is by continuing education
>> and vendors want to make sure of that so they re-certify you every 3
>> years to ensure you are keeping up with the changes.
>
> In my experience, you have to re-learn your job every 3-5 years, those
> that don't fall by the wayside.

Pretty accurate in the IT field. Even Max as a programmer would have
seen major changes in programming languages, compilers etc over a period
of 5 years.

>> Just acquiring a university education is not going to cut it anymore.
>> Most professions require continuing education to stay relevant and
>> adapt to new methodologies.
>
> In general, practical experience trumps a university course every time.
>

Careful, you might upset someone who thinks Uni degrees are the be all
and end all of knowledge. Noting that our local uni is now placing
students with companies so that they gain practical experience in the
workplace and come out with some useful skills. I'm currently working on
a tech training package for one of the companies here so that I can pass
on some of the information I use to troubleshoot issues.

There's a plan I follow.

1. Observation
2. Develop a theory
3. Test theory
4. Does it work - Yes - test again to be sure - still works - Problem solved
No - Start again.

One of the interesting issues you find with slightly older machines is
the cmos battery dropping voltage slightly which can lead to some really
weird issues, so it's one of my starting points on a machine behaving
badly given that nothing else is obvious such as the power supply
voltages being incorrect. Cleaning ram contacts is a standard as well as
removing and replacing heatsink compound on any machine more than 12
months old.

On 7/07/2021 9:33 pm, Grumpy Tech wrote:
> On 7/07/2021 4:14 pm, keithr0 wrote:
>> On 7/07/2021 6:59 am, Grumpy Tech wrote:
>>> On 6/07/2021 4:34 pm, Gary R. Schmidt wrote:
>>>> Well, yes and no - but then I did my CS degree back in the days when
>>>> you were given a bucket of sand, a rock, and a flint on day one of
>>>> CS-101 and had to melt your own silicon.  :-)
>>>
>>> You forgot to mention you wrote and compiled your OpSys in machine
>>> language! ;-)
>>
>> I once wrote a database in machine language, but it was a simple
>> database and I am old :)
>
> Pretty much forgotten all of it now. Used to program in basic, turbo
> pascal, and vba for custom spreadsheets.
>>
>> In the old days fixing mainframes involved the ability to quickly come
>> up with machine language stuff because diagnostics were pretty well
>> no-existent
>
> I guess my experience with setting up BBS's helped me to be able to
> diagnose. God help anyone nowadays if stuff wasn't plug and play.
> Remembering changing jumpers on interface cards to change the i/o
> address and irq's. Wondering why a machine wouldn't boot and you find
> two cards set at C800... The good old days and you lost the manual for
> the i/o card and you might as well throw it away as nothing was printed
> on the card!
>
>>> Therein lies the point I was trying to make to Max in that the only
>>> way you can stay current in the IT field is by continuing education
>>> and vendors want to make sure of that so they re-certify you every 3
>>> years to ensure you are keeping up with the changes.
>>
>> In my experience, you have to re-learn your job every 3-5 years, those
>> that don't fall by the wayside.
>
> Pretty accurate in the IT field. Even Max as a programmer would have
> seen major changes in programming languages, compilers etc over a period
> of 5 years.
>
>
>>> Just acquiring a university education is not going to cut it anymore.
>>> Most professions require continuing education to stay relevant and
>>> adapt to new methodologies.
>>
>> In general, practical experience trumps a university course every time.
>>
>
> Careful, you might upset someone who thinks Uni degrees are the be all
> and end all of knowledge.

I did an apprenticeship in electronics at a site that, at the time, was
a world standard research facility. We did the first two years in the
college workshops before being unleashed in the labs. It was generally
recognised that a 3rd year apprentice was more use than a new graduate.
I've worked with people with various degrees, some were brilliant, some
were useless, the bulk were just average.

> Noting that our local uni is now placing
> students with companies so that they gain practical experience in the
> workplace and come out with some useful skills. I'm currently working on
> a tech training package for one of the companies here so that I can pass
> on some of the information I use to troubleshoot issues.
>
> There's a plan I follow.
>
> 1. Observation
> 2. Develop a theory
> 3. Test theory
> 4. Does it work - Yes - test again to be sure - still works - Problem
> solved
> No - Start again.

Is there an obvious solution? If so do it.
Choose between the best possibility and the easiest to test.
Work your way down the possibilities.

I usually came in when others had failed, the first thing was to check
what they had done. If they had missed some thing then try that, if not
then it's going to be a hard slog. If the old CDC3600 had gone down at
the Bureau of Stats, then it was a case of getting a dual beam scope, a
pile of logics, a pot of coffee, and tell the wife not to expect me home
till late.

You can be too clever though, I once got a call to go to a site where
another engineer had been doing maintenance and the system wouldn't come
up. I got there and immediately saw that he had left a switch in the
wrong position, flicked it and everything worked. Good result I thought
but the customer complained to the company about the first guy being
incompetent. He wasn't incompetent, just not very good at the job.

> One of the interesting issues you find with slightly older machines is
> the cmos battery dropping voltage slightly which can lead to some really
> weird issues, so it's one of my starting points on a machine behaving
> badly given that nothing else is obvious such as the power supply
> voltages being incorrect. Cleaning ram contacts is a standard as well as
> removing and replacing heatsink compound on any machine more than 12
> months old.

I've not done much PC maintenance other than my own machines although I
did get a callout once all the way to Japan to fix a shipment of PCs but
that was just a case of poor QA at the factory. Good trip though,
brought some nice camera gear back.