Before the move to a bungalow I used to run a Linux box (old Dell) as a
playpen for phpBB forum fiddling and also to host an instance of
LogicalDOC Community DMS. I was persuaded by SWMBO to junk it as a) no
room b) "clutter".

TBF keeping on top of Ubuntu updates, particularly when they broke
LogicalDOC was becoming a hassle.

I'd still like to do the net DMS thing though. My one.com web hosting
won't allow that, so a virtual server is the way to go I guess. Or
should I go the whole cloud hog? I hear people going on about docker
etc. Played with Azure briefly (1 month free), but not sure about it
long term. I already have a Wasabi (aws clone) cloud storage account, so
all the PDF documents are safe. More a question of giving access with
category and free text search across those PDFs.

A one stop shop to replace the one.com home might be a good plan (given
the cost of a one.com account with 5 Maria dBs now). Won't be hosting a
Mastodon instance, you will be relieved to hear.

When I first became active on the net (with gilera.uk) I had a virtual
server, but I'm not sure what's available these days for less than an
arm and a leg.

So recommendations please for ease of setup and reasonable monthly outlay.

--
Moto Morini 2C/375, Moto Morini 2C/350
Gilera 175 Sport, Husqvarna 401 Svartpilen
"Do not adjust your mind, there is a fault in the reality"

Pete Fisher wrote:

> Before the move to a bungalow I used to run a Linux box (old Dell) as
> a playpen for phpBB forum fiddling and also to host an instance of
> LogicalDOC Community DMS. I was persuaded by SWMBO to junk it as a)
> no room b) "clutter".
>
> TBF keeping on top of Ubuntu updates, particularly when they broke
> LogicalDOC was becoming a hassle.
>
> I'd still like to do the net DMS thing though. My one.com web hosting
> won't allow that, so a virtual server is the way to go I guess. Or
> should I go the whole cloud hog? I hear people going on about docker
> etc. Played with Azure briefly (1 month free), but not sure about it
> long term. I already have a Wasabi (aws clone) cloud storage account,
> so all the PDF documents are safe. More a question of giving access
> with category and free text search across those PDFs.
>
> A one stop shop to replace the one.com home might be a good plan
> (given the cost of a one.com account with 5 Maria dBs now). Won't be
> hosting a Mastodon instance, you will be relieved to hear.
>
> When I first became active on the net (with gilera.uk) I had a
> virtual server, but I'm not sure what's available these days for less
> than an arm and a leg.
>
> So recommendations please for ease of setup and reasonable monthly
> outlay.

Saw this mentioned in a newsletter, never used them myself mind.

https://www.digitalocean.com/pricing/droplets

--
Geoff
NTV 650

On 20/11/2022 10:36, Pete Fisher wrote:
> Before the move to a bungalow I used to run a Linux box (old Dell) as a
> playpen for phpBB forum fiddling and also to host an instance of
> LogicalDOC Community DMS. I was persuaded by SWMBO to junk it as a) no
> room b) "clutter".
>
> TBF keeping on top of Ubuntu updates, particularly when they broke
> LogicalDOC was becoming a hassle.
>
> I'd still like to do the net DMS thing though. My one.com web hosting
> won't allow that, so a virtual server is the way to go I guess. Or
> should I go the whole cloud hog? I hear people going on about docker
> etc. Played with Azure briefly (1 month free), but not sure about it
> long term. I already have a Wasabi (aws clone) cloud storage account, so
> all the PDF documents are safe. More a question of giving access with
> category and free text search across those PDFs.
>
> A one stop shop to replace the one.com home might be a good plan (given
> the cost of a one.com account with 5 Maria dBs now). Won't be hosting a
> Mastodon instance, you will be relieved to hear.
>
> When I first became active on the net (with gilera.uk)  I had a virtual
> server, but I'm not sure what's available these days for less than an
> arm and a leg.
>
> So recommendations please for ease of setup and reasonable monthly outlay.

Sounds like you want a virtual private server i.e. it looks like you
have a server to yourself but is actually a share of one, so search for
"vps" and take your pick.

Amazon has "lightsail" which as well as the option for more traditional
VPS, can also run a Docker container which saves having to faff with
maintaining Linux if you can get a Dockerised version of LogicalDOC.

--
Bruce Horrocks
FJR1300AS

On 21/11/2022 22:02, GeoffC wrote:
> Pete Fisher wrote:

<SNIP

>> When I first became active on the net (with gilera.uk) I had a
>> virtual server, but I'm not sure what's available these days for less
>> than an arm and a leg.
>>
>> So recommendations please for ease of setup and reasonable monthly
>> outlay.
>
> Saw this mentioned in a newsletter, never used them myself mind.
>
> https://www.digitalocean.com/pricing/droplets
>
>

Looks a possibility for a toe in the water.
--
Moto Morini 2C/375, Moto Morini 2C/350
Gilera 175 Sport, Husqvarna 401 Svartpilen
"Do not adjust your mind, there is a fault in the reality"

On 22/11/2022 00:42, Bruce Horrocks wrote:

<SNIP>
>> When I first became active on the net (with gilera.uk)  I had a
>> virtual server, but I'm not sure what's available these days for less
>> than an arm and a leg.
>>
>> So recommendations please for ease of setup and reasonable monthly
>> outlay.
>
>
> Sounds like you want a virtual private server i.e. it looks like you
> have a server to yourself but is actually a share of one, so search for
> "vps" and take your pick.
>
> Amazon has "lightsail" which as well as the option for more traditional
> VPS, can also run a Docker container which saves having to faff with
> maintaining Linux if you can get a Dockerised version of LogicalDOC.
>

Interesting. Whatever I go for it will be handy if any sort of VM I
create can be quickly nuked and recreated when fiddling renders it
fubar. I played around with Virtualbox on my remaining desktop machine.
The snapshot feature proved very useful but I guess that functionality
comes at a price on any kind of hosted service. Azure would certainly
fit the bill, but HFM? The current AWS lightsail offers look tempting.

--
Moto Morini 2C/375, Moto Morini 2C/350
Gilera 175 Sport, Husqvarna 401 Svartpilen
"Do not adjust your mind, there is a fault in the reality"

On 20/11/2022 10:36, Pete Fisher wrote:
> Before the move to a bungalow I used to run a Linux box (old Dell) as a
> playpen for phpBB forum fiddling and also to host an instance of
> LogicalDOC Community DMS. I was persuaded by SWMBO to junk it as a) no
> room b) "clutter".
[snip]
>
> So recommendations please for ease of setup and reasonable monthly outlay.
>
>

Think carefully about the price
https://www.theregister.com/2022/11/02/cloud_magic_era_ends/

On 21 Nov 2022 at 22:02:56 GMT, ""GeoffC"" <me@home.nl> wrote:

> Pete Fisher wrote:
>
>> Before the move to a bungalow I used to run a Linux box (old Dell) as
>> a playpen for phpBB forum fiddling and also to host an instance of
>> LogicalDOC Community DMS. I was persuaded by SWMBO to junk it as a)
>> no room b) "clutter".
>>
>> TBF keeping on top of Ubuntu updates, particularly when they broke
>> LogicalDOC was becoming a hassle.
>>
>> I'd still like to do the net DMS thing though. My one.com web hosting
>> won't allow that, so a virtual server is the way to go I guess. Or
>> should I go the whole cloud hog? I hear people going on about docker
>> etc. Played with Azure briefly (1 month free), but not sure about it
>> long term. I already have a Wasabi (aws clone) cloud storage account,
>> so all the PDF documents are safe. More a question of giving access
>> with category and free text search across those PDFs.
>>
>> A one stop shop to replace the one.com home might be a good plan
>> (given the cost of a one.com account with 5 Maria dBs now). Won't be
>> hosting a Mastodon instance, you will be relieved to hear.
>>
>> When I first became active on the net (with gilera.uk) I had a
>> virtual server, but I'm not sure what's available these days for less
>> than an arm and a leg.
>>
>> So recommendations please for ease of setup and reasonable monthly
>> outlay.
>
> Saw this mentioned in a newsletter, never used them myself mind.
>
> https://www.digitalocean.com/pricing/droplets

As well as DO (which we used to use when I had a job and we had no problems at
all with - but I wasn't one of the "hands on" guys there), do take a look at
Vultr which seems to be comparable to DO.

https://www.vultr.com

Build VMs, take a snapshot, destroy, rebuild to your heart's content. I got a
month free trial I think and a lot simpler (many fewer things to consider)
than an Azure or AWS environment - not advocating for production use, just
sharing my experience from a few months ago when I was testing out some
concepts.

--
jeremy

On 22/11/2022 10:33, jeremy wrote:
> On 21 Nov 2022 at 22:02:56 GMT, ""GeoffC"" <me@home.nl> wrote:

>>>
>>> So recommendations please for ease of setup and reasonable monthly
>>> outlay.
>>
>> Saw this mentioned in a newsletter, never used them myself mind.
>>
>> https://www.digitalocean.com/pricing/droplets
>
> As well as DO (which we used to use when I had a job and we had no problems at
> all with - but I wasn't one of the "hands on" guys there), do take a look at
> Vultr which seems to be comparable to DO.
>
> https://www.vultr.com
>
> Build VMs, take a snapshot, destroy, rebuild to your heart's content. I got a
> month free trial I think and a lot simpler (many fewer things to consider)
> than an Azure or AWS environment - not advocating for production use, just
> sharing my experience from a few months ago when I was testing out some
> concepts.
>

Very helpful, thanks. To a large extent this is a "because it's there"
exercise. Proof of concept was established on my own box. LogicalDOC
Community Edition may be free, but it ticks a lot of boxes for a proper
DMS. User numbers are going to be minute. My old dell box via NoIP could
cope quite happily, but having a physical Linux box and keeping on top
of updates etc. is a PITA.

If I can find the right package I can consolidate a couple of web
hosting domains and also include LogicalDOC access. That should offset
the cost a little. I get the occasional donation, but not always enough
to cover annual costs.

--
Moto Morini 2C/375, Moto Morini 2C/350
Gilera 175 Sport, Husqvarna 401 Svartpilen
"Do not adjust your mind, there is a fault in the reality"

Pete Fisher <peter@ps-fisher.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> So recommendations please for ease of setup and reasonable monthly outlay.

[delurk]

I have a fleet of VPSes, mostly on the £3/EUR3/$3 per month kind of tariff.
Usually pick them up via offers posted on https://lowendtalk.com/ and
https://lowendbox.com/

Today I picked up a Black Friday deal from:
https://www.racknerd.com/BlackFriday/

Starts at $10/year+VAT (1 CPU, 10GB SSD, 768MB RAM), goes up from there.
An extra $6 if you want it in Amsterdam not the US. Ping time from the New
York server is about 80ms. Typically BF deals tend to roll over from year
to year so you get the same pricing next year.

You get a virtual machine with an OS preinstalled (from a range of popular
choices, Fedora/Ubuntu/etc). You get a root account and password, and an IP
address to which you can SSH. The rest is up to you. How low in spec you
can go depends on what apps you want to run.

What you don't get is backups in case the hardware or vendor should go down,
so you should set that up yourself. You don't get any support beyond 'nuke
your OS from orbit and get a fresh install' which you can do from a control
panel. There are people you can contact if your box or its networking is
broken, but they won't help with software problems.

You aren't going to get Amazon level of reliability (there is a small risk
the provider will go pop, only happened to me once) so there may be rare
outages eg if they need to migrate to a different machine. I've had another
RackNerd box for a while and not had problems.

But if you can deal with those things and aren't using it for mission
critical stuff it works out pretty cheap.

Theo
(no connection with any of these companies, just a mere lurker)

On 24/11/2022 21:25, Theo wrote:
> Pete Fisher <peter@ps-fisher.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> So recommendations please for ease of setup and reasonable monthly outlay.
>
> [delurk]
>

> Today I picked up a Black Friday deal from:
> https://www.racknerd.com/BlackFriday/
>
> Starts at $10/year+VAT (1 CPU, 10GB SSD, 768MB RAM), goes up from there.
> An extra $6 if you want it in Amsterdam not the US. Ping time from the New
> York server is about 80ms. Typically BF deals tend to roll over from year
> to year so you get the same pricing next year.
>

That's my kind of pricing for a "because it's there" project.
Will investigate.

--
Moto Morini 2C/375, Moto Morini 2C/350
Gilera 175 Sport, Husqvarna 401 Svartpilen
"Do not adjust your mind, there is a fault in the reality"

On 24/11/2022 22:16, Pete Fisher wrote:
> On 24/11/2022 21:25, Theo wrote:
>> Pete Fisher <peter@ps-fisher.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> So recommendations please for ease of setup and reasonable monthly
>>> outlay.
>>
>> [delurk]
>>
>
>> Today I picked up a Black Friday deal from:
>> https://www.racknerd.com/BlackFriday/
>>
>> Starts at $10/year+VAT (1 CPU, 10GB SSD, 768MB RAM), goes up from there.
>> An extra $6 if you want it in Amsterdam not the US.  Ping time from
>> the New
>> York server is about 80ms.  Typically BF deals tend to roll over from
>> year
>> to year so you get the same pricing next year.
>>
>
> That's my kind of pricing for a "because it's there" project.
> Will investigate.
>

Docker - good innit?

--
Moto Morini 2C/375, Moto Morini 2C/350
Gilera 175 Sport, Husqvarna 401 Svartpilen
"Do not adjust your mind, there is a fault in the reality"

Pete Fisher <peter@ps-fisher.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Docker - good innit?

'spretty good for the things that Docker's good at. It's quite good at
decoupling software from its state, so you put your state in one place and
then run whatever Docker container(s) you like pointing at it. Can be handy
for web services etc as the setup of all the parts can be quite finnicky to
do from scratch. It's also good for one-shot stuff where you just want to
run $thing once and then throw it away after.

I had a look at things where you want to run multiple Docker containers (eg
webservice, DB, cache, frontend server). Kubenetes is the current hotness
for doing that, but I concluded it was far too complicated for my purposes -
really designed where you have a lot of servers and want to run containers
across all of them.

I ended up back at docker-compose which is a bit rustic but designed for
running a few containers on a single machine, which is more my kind of
level.

Theo

On 25/11/2022 12:59, Theo wrote:
> Pete Fisher <peter@ps-fisher.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> Docker - good innit?
>
> 'spretty good for the things that Docker's good at. It's quite good at
> decoupling software from its state, so you put your state in one place and
> then run whatever Docker container(s) you like pointing at it. Can be handy
> for web services etc as the setup of all the parts can be quite finnicky to
> do from scratch. It's also good for one-shot stuff where you just want to
> run $thing once and then throw it away after.
>

This. I managed to get a LogicalDOC CE instance running in a fraction of
the time it took when I did it from scratch on my old Linux box.

> I had a look at things where you want to run multiple Docker containers (eg
> webservice, DB, cache, frontend server). Kubenetes is the current hotness
> for doing that, but I concluded it was far too complicated for my purposes -
> really designed where you have a lot of servers and want to run containers
> across all of them.
>

It's all Greek to me TBF, but I get there in the end sometimes. I date
back to the era of Commodore pets and ZX80s.

> I ended up back at docker-compose which is a bit rustic but designed for
> running a few containers on a single machine, which is more my kind of
> level.
>

More research needed.

--
Moto Morini 2C/375, Moto Morini 2C/350
Gilera 175 Sport, Husqvarna 401 Svartpilen
"Do not adjust your mind, there is a fault in the reality"

On 25/11/2022 13:53, Pete Fisher wrote:
> On 25/11/2022 12:59, Theo wrote:
>> Pete Fisher <peter@ps-fisher.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Docker - good innit?
>>
>> 'spretty good for the things that Docker's good at.  It's quite good at
>> decoupling software from its state, so you put your state in one place
>> and
>> then run whatever Docker container(s) you like pointing at it.  Can be
>> handy
>> for web services etc as the setup of all the parts can be quite
>> finnicky to
>> do from scratch.  It's also good for one-shot stuff where you just
>> want to
>> run $thing once and then throw it away after.
>>
>
>
> This. I managed to get a LogicalDOC CE instance running in a fraction of
> the time it took when I did it from scratch on my old Linux box.
>
>> I had a look at things where you want to run multiple Docker
>> containers (eg
>> webservice, DB, cache, frontend server).  Kubenetes is the current
>> hotness
>> for doing that, but I concluded it was far too complicated for my
>> purposes -
>> really designed where you have a lot of servers and want to run
>> containers
>> across all of them.
>>
>
> It's all Greek to me TBF, but I get there in the end sometimes. I date
> back to the era of Commodore pets and ZX80s.
>
>> I ended up back at docker-compose which is a bit rustic but designed for
>> running a few containers on a single machine, which is more my kind of
>> level.
>>
>
> More research needed.

Have a look at Docker Swarm as well. Less complicated than Kubernetes
but a significant step up from docker-compose.

--
Bruce Horrocks
FJR1300AS

On 25/11/2022 12:59, Theo wrote:
> Pete Fisher <peter@ps-fisher.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> Docker - good innit?
>

<snip>

>
> I ended up back at docker-compose which is a bit rustic but designed for
> running a few containers on a single machine, which is more my kind of
> level.
>

I like Portainer.

--
/Simon

On 26/11/2022 18:08, siwilson wrote:

> I like Portainer.

I like port...

--
Rusty Hinge
To err is human. To really foul things up requires a computer and the BOFH.

Pete Fisher wibbled:

> When I first became active on the net (with gilera.uk) I had a
> virtual server, but I'm not sure what's available these days for less
> than an arm and a leg.
>
> So recommendations please for ease of setup and reasonable monthly
> outlay.

I use linode (and have done for years). About $15 pm, IIRC. Really good
service and support.

But I really should try to move away and let someone else manage all my
stuff.

--
Cab
Z1000 and CB1300 and VeloSolex 3800

On 30/11/2022 06:53, Cab wrote:
> Pete Fisher wibbled:
>
>
>> When I first became active on the net (with gilera.uk) I had a
>> virtual server, but I'm not sure what's available these days for less
>> than an arm and a leg.
>>
>> So recommendations please for ease of setup and reasonable monthly
>> outlay.
>
> I use linode (and have done for years). About $15 pm, IIRC. Really good
> service and support.
>
> But I really should try to move away and let someone else manage all my
> stuff.
>

The attraction of not having to keep on top of basic OS updates is
strong, but the big name managed services do look as if the costs could
rack up very quickly once outside the free trail period. Eg.just a
static IP if running 24/7. Not justifiable for what is essentially a
hobby. The automatic snapshot functionality would be neat, but I may
have to get inventive with rsync or similar, if I can get my head round
Wasabi S3 stuff.

The budget racknerd experience is going OK so far. Early success was
tempered, however, by forgetting docker wouldn't leave persistent
LogicalDOC repositories unless started up in the right way. Some false
starts on gilding the lily have led to nuking the VPS a few times, but
the drill for getting back up and running is becoming familiar.

Can't seem to get Mysql to play nicely with LogicalDOC in a docker
environment so have gone with the embedded database option (HQLSDB)
until I can suss it. Not really an issue with such a small volume of
data and few concurrent users I suspect.

--
Moto Morini 2C/375, Moto Morini 2C/350
Gilera 175 Sport, Husqvarna 401 Svartpilen
"Do not adjust your mind, there is a fault in the reality"

Pete Fisher <peter@ps-fisher.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> The attraction of not having to keep on top of basic OS updates is
> strong, but the big name managed services do look as if the costs could
> rack up very quickly once outside the free trail period. Eg.just a
> static IP if running 24/7. Not justifiable for what is essentially a
> hobby. The automatic snapshot functionality would be neat, but I may
> have to get inventive with rsync or similar, if I can get my head round
> Wasabi S3 stuff.

I'd expect your OS can manage updating itself without help -
unattended-upgrades is the package in the Debian world and Ubuntu installs
it by default. Not sure what other distros do, but I expect they have
something similar.

Most 'managed' hosting gets you things like Cpanel for managing web
hosting/email addresses/etc, which can be actively counterproductive if you
just want a Linux box to SSH into. Or you just get an account on a shared
machine but no root access.

The main headache with updates is typically not the OS, but whatever
services you run on top of it. This is where Docker comes in, but also to
note that just pulling the latest Docker container can have issues
especially if you need to migrate data as part of the upgrade process.

(I have a woefully out of date mediawiki which I can't migrate because I'd
have to manually step through dozens of versions and lose various features
along the way)

Some of the VPS hosts use network-backed storage (rather than whatever
HDD/SSD is in the machine) which makes it more resilient against hardware
failure and snapshots typically come included - the downside is you need to
pay for space to store the snapshots since they come out of your storage
allowance. I use 'rsnapshot' for an rsync-based DIY approach to a home
machine, where I'm not paying for storage, and 'syncoid' (part of 'sanoid')
for dedicated servers where I run ZFS.

> The budget racknerd experience is going OK so far. Early success was
> tempered, however, by forgetting docker wouldn't leave persistent
> LogicalDOC repositories unless started up in the right way. Some false
> starts on gilding the lily have led to nuking the VPS a few times, but
> the drill for getting back up and running is becoming familiar.

It's nice to do that and not have to mess with install DVDs...
(even virtual ones into a management console are a PITA)

> Can't seem to get Mysql to play nicely with LogicalDOC in a docker
> environment so have gone with the embedded database option (HQLSDB)
> until I can suss it. Not really an issue with such a small volume of
> data and few concurrent users I suspect.

One downside of complexifying things with Docker is you end up running a lot
of services which all eat RAM. Sometimes KISS is the best option.

Theo

On 30/11/2022 09:11, Pete Fisher wrote:
> On 30/11/2022 06:53, Cab wrote:
>> Pete Fisher wibbled:
>>
>>
>>> When I first became active on the net (with gilera.uk)  I had a
>>> virtual server, but I'm not sure what's available these days for less
>>> than an arm and a leg.
>>>
>>> So recommendations please for ease of setup and reasonable monthly
>>> outlay.
>>
>> I use linode (and have done for years). About $15 pm, IIRC. Really good
>> service and support.
>>
>> But I really should try to move away and let someone else manage all my
>> stuff.
>>
>
> The attraction of not having to keep on top of basic OS updates is
> strong, but the big name managed services do look as if the costs could
> rack up very quickly once outside the free trail period. Eg.just a
> static IP if running 24/7. Not justifiable for what is essentially a
> hobby. The automatic snapshot functionality would be neat, but I may
> have to get inventive with rsync or similar, if I can get my head round
> Wasabi S3 stuff.
>
> The budget racknerd experience is going OK so far. Early success was
> tempered, however, by forgetting docker wouldn't leave persistent
> LogicalDOC repositories unless started up in the right way. Some false
> starts on gilding the lily have led to nuking the VPS a few times, but
> the drill for getting back up and running is becoming familiar.
>
> Can't seem to get Mysql to play nicely with LogicalDOC in a docker
> environment so have gone with the embedded database option (HQLSDB)
> until I can suss it. Not really an issue with such a small volume of
> data and few concurrent users I suspect.
>
>
>
>

Update. Even using the embedded database I found reboots difficult to
get my head round. So I nuked the installation and went for a vanilla
LogicalDOC-CE/MariadB setup. Seems to be stable and for the limited user
numbers, reasonably responsive given the parsimonious amount of server
memory I paid for. One or two false starts adding Samba, setting up DNS
to a new cheap domain and SSL (still struggling with that for an https
connection to tomcat).

Anyway, it is now open for business. There is only one denizen here who
may be registered on The Gen still, so I'm not going to publish a direct
link.

Email from the new domain may be a no no as ICBA with a local mail
server and the IP seems to be on a couple of blacklists (because a VPS
apparently). Any mailto links can use the old domain, which is setup to
use Google SMTP, for a while yet.

Next step may be to recreate the Joomla site but to the very latest
version. DMs on the embedded Kunena forum died recently - not that they
were ever used much, so I may just bolt on a phpBB forum. I reckon I can
hack a simple Kunena to phpBB user table export/import to get current
subscribers set up for future posts and just freeze the old forum as
read only. Or, as the fucking bots keep trying to register, just nuke
the whole thing and start again. That should make it nice and quiet as
there are several Gilera FB groups to choose from.

--
Moto Morini 2C/375, Moto Morini 2C/350
Gilera 175 Sport, Husqvarna 401 Svartpilen
"Do not adjust your mind, there is a fault in the reality"