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aus+uk / uk.rec.gardening / Re: Blighty...

SubjectAuthor
* Blighty...Jeff Layman
`* Re: Blighty...Jeff Layman
 `* Re: Blighty...Nick Maclaren
  +* Re: Blighty...Jeff Layman
  |+* Re: Blighty...The Natural Philosopher
  ||`* Re: Blighty...alan_m
  || +- Re: Blighty...The Natural Philosopher
  || `- Re: Blighty...Nick Maclaren
  |`* Re: Blighty...Nick Maclaren
  | +- Re: Blighty...Nick Maclaren
  | `* Re: Blighty...Jeff Layman
  |  `* Re: Blighty...Nick Maclaren
  |   `- Re: Blighty...Jeff Layman
  `- Re: Blighty...Martin Brown

1
Blighty...

<sgcq7e$ac4$1@dont-email.me>

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From: jmlay...@invalid.invalid (Jeff Layman)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.gardening
Subject: Blighty...
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 08:56:29 +0100
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Jeff Layman - Sat, 28 Aug 2021 07:56 UTC

Last week a 20-years old box ball, and 25-years old box topiary
teddy-bear were showing signs of box blight. The ball has been cut off
and consigned to the incinerator. I've tried pruning the infected bits
off the teddy-bear, but I don't see it surviving.

Several days ago the Cotoneaster X hybrida "Pendula", which was here
when we moved in, and I guess to be at least 40 years old (the trunk is
20 cm in diameter) seemed to be showing an unusual amount of yellowing
leaves, and very few flowers. A closer examination yesterday revealed
what seems to be severe fireblight. It'll have to be cut down if it is
that. We've also got an apple tree, pear tree, quince, pyracantha, and
photinia in the garden. It wouldn't concern me if the pyracantha went,
but I wouldn't want to lose the others.

It seems strange that in this relatively mild year here for weather
(especially this August) fireblight should appear.

--

Jeff

Re: Blighty...

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From: jmlay...@invalid.invalid (Jeff Layman)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.gardening
Subject: Re: Blighty...
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 09:20:03 +0100
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Jeff Layman - Sat, 28 Aug 2021 08:20 UTC

On 28/08/2021 08:56, Jeff Layman wrote:
> Last week a 20-years old box ball, and 25-years old box topiary
> teddy-bear were showing signs of box blight. The ball has been cut off
> and consigned to the incinerator. I've tried pruning the infected bits
> off the teddy-bear, but I don't see it surviving.
>
> Several days ago the Cotoneaster X hybrida "Pendula", which was here
> when we moved in, and I guess to be at least 40 years old (the trunk is
> 20 cm in diameter) seemed to be showing an unusual amount of yellowing
> leaves, and very few flowers. A closer examination yesterday revealed
> what seems to be severe fireblight. It'll have to be cut down if it is
> that. We've also got an apple tree, pear tree, quince, pyracantha, and
> photinia in the garden. It wouldn't concern me if the pyracantha went,
> but I wouldn't want to lose the others.
>
> It seems strange that in this relatively mild year here for weather
> (especially this August) fireblight should appear.

Forgot to include photo links:
Shrub:
<https://ibb.co/5YMtVW2>
Close-up:
<https://ibb.co/ssXLcs4>

--

Jeff

Re: Blighty...

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From: nmm...@wheeler.UUCP (Nick Maclaren)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.gardening
Subject: Re: Blighty...
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 08:47:13 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: Old Fogies Society
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 by: Nick Maclaren - Sat, 28 Aug 2021 08:47 UTC

In article <sgcrjj$cm$1@dont-email.me>,
Jeff Layman <jmlayman@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> It seems strange that in this relatively mild year here for weather
>> (especially this August) fireblight should appear.
>
>Forgot to include photo links:
>Shrub:
><https://ibb.co/5YMtVW2>
>Close-up:
><https://ibb.co/ssXLcs4>

What are those patches of white fur? It doesn't look quite like
fireblight to me, and there are lots of other organisms that cause
fairly similar symptoms. It's worth checking the specific symptoms
but, frankly, diagnosing and treating such die-backs is very rarely
successful.

https://www.rhs.org.uk/Advice/profile?PID=160

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Re: Blighty...

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From: jmlay...@invalid.invalid (Jeff Layman)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.gardening
Subject: Re: Blighty...
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 11:26:08 +0100
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <sgd300$rhp$1@dont-email.me>
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 by: Jeff Layman - Sat, 28 Aug 2021 10:26 UTC

On 28/08/2021 09:47, Nick Maclaren wrote:
> In article <sgcrjj$cm$1@dont-email.me>,
> Jeff Layman <jmlayman@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>> It seems strange that in this relatively mild year here for weather
>>> (especially this August) fireblight should appear.
>>
>> Forgot to include photo links:
>> Shrub:
>> <https://ibb.co/5YMtVW2>
>> Close-up:
>> <https://ibb.co/ssXLcs4>
>
> What are those patches of white fur? It doesn't look quite like
> fireblight to me, and there are lots of other organisms that cause
> fairly similar symptoms. It's worth checking the specific symptoms
> but, frankly, diagnosing and treating such die-backs is very rarely
> successful.
>
> https://www.rhs.org.uk/Advice/profile?PID=160

Well, there are some lichens on the plant, but I assume you're referring
to the whitish patches on the branches and furry patches on one or two
leaves. I don't know what they are, or when they appeared. FWIW, I
haven't seen any canker or slime yet, but haven't had a good look.
Whatever it is, an extensive infection like that is almost certain to
kill the plant. I've no idea what the "natural" life of a cotoneaster
like that might be. Perhaps the infection was inevitable, but I'd like
to think not!

I think the main question is, if it's not fireblight, what is it? And,
if it is identified as something else, is that notifiable?

--

Jeff

Re: Blighty...

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.gardening
Subject: Re: Blighty...
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 11:47:13 +0100
Organization: A little, after lunch
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Sat, 28 Aug 2021 10:47 UTC

On 28/08/2021 11:26, Jeff Layman wrote:
> I think the main question is, if it's not fireblight, what is it? And,
> if it is identified as something else, is that notifiable?

I've noticed something mildewish on me roses - white and powdery looking

Put it down to the wet summer.

--
It is the folly of too many to mistake the echo of a London coffee-house
for the voice of the kingdom.

Jonathan Swift

Re: Blighty...

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From: nmm...@wheeler.UUCP (Nick Maclaren)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.gardening
Subject: Re: Blighty...
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 11:32:53 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: Old Fogies Society
Lines: 44
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 by: Nick Maclaren - Sat, 28 Aug 2021 11:32 UTC

In article <sgd300$rhp$1@dont-email.me>,
Jeff Layman <jmlayman@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>Well, there are some lichens on the plant, but I assume you're referring
>to the whitish patches on the branches and furry patches on one or two
>leaves. I don't know what they are, or when they appeared. FWIW, I
>haven't seen any canker or slime yet, but haven't had a good look.
>Whatever it is, an extensive infection like that is almost certain to
>kill the plant. I've no idea what the "natural" life of a cotoneaster
>like that might be. Perhaps the infection was inevitable, but I'd like
>to think not!
>
>I think the main question is, if it's not fireblight, what is it? And,
>if it is identified as something else, is that notifiable?

Yes, I was. They might be an insect, but you would need at least a
good magnifying glass to check; however, I suspect they are related
to the die-back. Without canker, slime or the fox-coloured underbark,
there's nothing that distingishes fireblight from many other things.
You could check for those, especially the last.

Another diagnostic feature is whether it starts at the periphery
(usually flowers or wounds for fireblight) and spreads back towards
the roots. That needs at least two careful observations, to see how
it spreads. Just because it affects the periphery, or some branches
more than others, doesn't indicate how it spreads. That doesn't prove
fireblight, but narrows the choice considerably.

There are thousands of parasitic fungi, bacteria and similar organisms
in the UK that cause similar die-back, and identifying such things
needs at least a laboratory microscope and sometimes DNA work! There
are a handful that are known problems, and they are often blamed for
unidentified die-backs, just because people have heard of them.

It's very unlikely to be notifiable, or practically identifiable.
Sorry. But that doesn't change the prognosis or treatment, which is
much the same for all of them. You could wait and see, or cut it right
back and hope it recovers, but odds-on it will die. I have just lost
a peach, which initially showed vaguely similar symptoms, and have no
idea what killed it, though I suspect a root-rot.

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Re: Blighty...

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From: nmm...@wheeler.UUCP (Nick Maclaren)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.gardening
Subject: Re: Blighty...
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 12:02:17 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: Old Fogies Society
Lines: 19
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 by: Nick Maclaren - Sat, 28 Aug 2021 12:02 UTC

I forgot to say that a lot of the information on such things, most
definitely including that on the RHS Web site, is unreasonably black
and white. Plants very often survive such things for a very long
time - I had a Cotinus coggryia that got verticillium wilt well over
a decade ago, had to cut out half of it, its bark has died over half
of its main stems, but it carries on. Its reduced vigor is actually
an advantage!

I had fireblight on a Chaenomeles, and had to cut it down to ground
level, but its new growth was largely fine, though I kept losing a
stem. When it died, it was probably from a root-rot.

But my peach lost the odd branch one year, was very sickly the next
and dead the third. Other ones have simply failed to come through
the winter.

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Re: Blighty...

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From: jmlay...@invalid.invalid (Jeff Layman)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.gardening
Subject: Re: Blighty...
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 13:03:39 +0100
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 58
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 by: Jeff Layman - Sat, 28 Aug 2021 12:03 UTC

On 28/08/2021 12:32, Nick Maclaren wrote:
> In article <sgd300$rhp$1@dont-email.me>,
> Jeff Layman <jmlayman@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> Well, there are some lichens on the plant, but I assume you're referring
>> to the whitish patches on the branches and furry patches on one or two
>> leaves. I don't know what they are, or when they appeared. FWIW, I
>> haven't seen any canker or slime yet, but haven't had a good look.
>> Whatever it is, an extensive infection like that is almost certain to
>> kill the plant. I've no idea what the "natural" life of a cotoneaster
>> like that might be. Perhaps the infection was inevitable, but I'd like
>> to think not!
>>
>> I think the main question is, if it's not fireblight, what is it? And,
>> if it is identified as something else, is that notifiable?
>
> Yes, I was. They might be an insect, but you would need at least a
> good magnifying glass to check; however, I suspect they are related
> to the die-back. Without canker, slime or the fox-coloured underbark,
> there's nothing that distingishes fireblight from many other things.
> You could check for those, especially the last.
>
> Another diagnostic feature is whether it starts at the periphery
> (usually flowers or wounds for fireblight) and spreads back towards
> the roots. That needs at least two careful observations, to see how
> it spreads. Just because it affects the periphery, or some branches
> more than others, doesn't indicate how it spreads. That doesn't prove
> fireblight, but narrows the choice considerably.
>
> There are thousands of parasitic fungi, bacteria and similar organisms
> in the UK that cause similar die-back, and identifying such things
> needs at least a laboratory microscope and sometimes DNA work! There
> are a handful that are known problems, and they are often blamed for
> unidentified die-backs, just because people have heard of them.
>
> It's very unlikely to be notifiable, or practically identifiable.
> Sorry. But that doesn't change the prognosis or treatment, which is
> much the same for all of them. You could wait and see, or cut it right
> back and hope it recovers, but odds-on it will die. I have just lost
> a peach, which initially showed vaguely similar symptoms, and have no
> idea what killed it, though I suspect a root-rot.

I just removed some of the bark from the main trunk:
<https://ibb.co/8zDfz9m>

I'm afraid it add little to what we already know. There's no doubt the
whole plant is affected by dieback. It's a great shame as it was a very
attractive plant, and I've been trying to get it back into shape for the
last 9 years. A cypress had been allowed to lean onto it for many years,
stunting growth on one side, so we had it removed when we moved in. The
cotoneaster is, surprisingly, quite a slow grower, and even now remains
somewhat out-of-shape. I'll start considering replacements. :-(

Thanks for your input. If I find out anything more I'll post the info here.

--

Jeff

Re: Blighty...

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From: nmm...@wheeler.UUCP (Nick Maclaren)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.gardening
Subject: Re: Blighty...
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 12:26:57 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: Old Fogies Society
Lines: 12
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Originator: nmm@wheeler.UUCP (Nick Maclaren)
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 by: Nick Maclaren - Sat, 28 Aug 2021 12:26 UTC

In article <sgd8ms$3um$1@dont-email.me>,
Jeff Layman <jmlayman@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>I just removed some of the bark from the main trunk:
><https://ibb.co/8zDfz9m>

Are the fox-coloured patches on the cambium layer? If, it seems to
have that feature, and fireblight is the most likely cause.

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

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From: jmlay...@invalid.invalid (Jeff Layman)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.gardening
Subject: Re: Blighty...
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 14:34:13 +0100
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 by: Jeff Layman - Sat, 28 Aug 2021 13:34 UTC

On 28/08/2021 13:26, Nick Maclaren wrote:
> In article <sgd8ms$3um$1@dont-email.me>,
> Jeff Layman <jmlayman@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> I just removed some of the bark from the main trunk:
>> <https://ibb.co/8zDfz9m>
>
> Are the fox-coloured patches on the cambium layer? If, it seems to
> have that feature, and fireblight is the most likely cause.

It looks like it. I assume the light area is heartwood, the fox-colour
is the cambium or on it, and the dark colour phloem, but it's rather a
long time since I did botany!

I'm not sure that any part should be saved from burning. Perhaps if the
main trunk could be dried somewhere safely it would make an unusual wood
that a turner might be interested in.

--

Jeff

Re: Blighty...

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From: jun...@admac.myzen.co.uk (alan_m)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.gardening
Subject: Re: Blighty...
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2021 09:02:59 +0100
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 by: alan_m - Sun, 29 Aug 2021 08:02 UTC

On 28/08/2021 11:47, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> Put it down to the wet summer.
>

Doesn't it depend where you live? I spent a month with friends on the
borders of Wales and apart from a good few days there was some rain most
days. When I returned to Essex a lot of my plants/shrubs looked a bit
stressed due to the lack of water. In the months since there hasn't been
that much rain and not enough to thoroughly soak into the ground.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
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Subject: Re: Blighty...
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2021 09:06:08 +0100
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Sun, 29 Aug 2021 08:06 UTC

On 29/08/2021 09:02, alan_m wrote:
> On 28/08/2021 11:47, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> Put it down to the wet summer.
>>
>
>
> Doesn't it depend where you live? I spent a month with friends on the
> borders of Wales and apart from a good few days there was some rain most
> days. When I returned to Essex a lot of my plants/shrubs looked a bit
> stressed due to the lack of water. In the months since there hasn't been
> that much rain and not enough to thoroughly soak into the ground.
>
Well I am only one country over and there has been plenty of rain in
Suffolk. Some torrential.

--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.
-- Yogi Berra

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From: nmm...@wheeler.UUCP (Nick Maclaren)
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Subject: Re: Blighty...
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 by: Nick Maclaren - Sun, 29 Aug 2021 08:53 UTC

In article <ip0t9jFscr8U1@mid.individual.net>,
alan_m <news@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>
>Doesn't it depend where you live? I spent a month with friends on the
>borders of Wales and apart from a good few days there was some rain most
>days. When I returned to Essex a lot of my plants/shrubs looked a bit
>stressed due to the lack of water. In the months since there hasn't been
>that much rain and not enough to thoroughly soak into the ground.

Yes, very much so. What's more, in East Anglia (most of which has
no topography to speak of), it can very across ridiculously short
distances and for no reason but chance. It has been a pretty dry
summer for me, near Cambridge, but significantly wetter as close as
10 miles away.

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

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From: '''newsp...@nonad.co.uk (Martin Brown)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.gardening
Subject: Re: Blighty...
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2021 16:54:16 +0100
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 by: Martin Brown - Mon, 30 Aug 2021 15:54 UTC

On 28/08/2021 09:47, Nick Maclaren wrote:
> In article <sgcrjj$cm$1@dont-email.me>,
> Jeff Layman <jmlayman@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>> It seems strange that in this relatively mild year here for weather
>>> (especially this August) fireblight should appear.
>>
>> Forgot to include photo links:
>> Shrub:
>> <https://ibb.co/5YMtVW2>
>> Close-up:
>> <https://ibb.co/ssXLcs4>
>
> What are those patches of white fur? It doesn't look quite like
> fireblight to me, and there are lots of other organisms that cause
> fairly similar symptoms. It's worth checking the specific symptoms
> but, frankly, diagnosing and treating such die-backs is very rarely
> successful.
>
> https://www.rhs.org.uk/Advice/profile?PID=160

I agree it doesn't look quite right for fireblight (which looks much
more like some leaves have been in a flame and blackened). If it turns
really dark and frazzled looking then it probably is fireblight but it
could be one of a number of other fungal rots that also do for
cotoneasters. If it is fireblight then there should be some bacterial
ooze from the stem here and there too.

My guess from the way it seems to have affected the growing tips of the
entire plant simultaneously is something nasty attacking the roots and
starving the entire plant of water (or waterlogged roots that have died).

A cross section through an affected branch might be illuminating.

Cutting out and burning all diseased parts back to clean wood is worth a
try (as is carefully sterilising your tools afterwards) or having a set
only for use on suspected diseased wood which is what I do at my brother
in law where I suspect there is some fireblight in his garden.

https://planthealthportal.defra.gov.uk/assets/factsheets/fireblight.pdf

It is unfortunately now quite a common disease in the UK now.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

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