On Thursday, 3 August 2023 at 17:27:12 UTC+1, Andy Burns wrote:
> John Geddes wrote:
>
> > Can anyone point me to a coverage map that shows where one should be able to make a 999 call from inside a building using a mobile phone?
> Doubtful you'll find a specific map, but anywhere that gets a signal
> from any UK network, not just the network you're with.

You may need to log out and then select make emergency call when asked for your PIN.

> > I understand that 999/112 calls can use something akin to 1G
> Err, no. They can only use networks that still exist, 1G in the UK has
> been gone for twenty years.
+1
2G has the greatest penetration.
>
> Given that 3G is already been started turning off, then in the near
> future, what's going to be available is 2G + 4G + 5G and depending on
> your phone maybe VoWiFi if you're somewhere that has wifi you can
> connect to (and isn't suffering a power cut).
> > Other than making a test call to 999 (which seems a very bad idea)
> A very bad idea
> > how is a householder to predict whether they would be able to reach the emergency services from home via their mobile?
> look at coverage maps from every network.

Network Cell Info Lite will tell you about your network(s), the pro version may do it for all.

On Sun 06/08/2023 20:05, notya...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, 3 August 2023 at 17:27:12 UTC+1, Andy Burns wrote:
>> John Geddes wrote:
>>
>>> Can anyone point me to a coverage map that shows where one should be able to make a 999 call from inside a building using a mobile phone?
>> Doubtful you'll find a specific map, but anywhere that gets a signal
>> from any UK network, not just the network you're with.
>
> You may need to log out and then select make emergency call when asked for your PIN.
>
>>> I understand that 999/112 calls can use something akin to 1G
>> Err, no. They can only use networks that still exist, 1G in the UK has
>> been gone for twenty years.
> +1
> 2G has the greatest penetration.
>>
>> Given that 3G is already been started turning off, then in the near
>> future, what's going to be available is 2G + 4G + 5G and depending on
>> your phone maybe VoWiFi if you're somewhere that has wifi you can
>> connect to (and isn't suffering a power cut).
>>> Other than making a test call to 999 (which seems a very bad idea)
>> A very bad idea
>>> how is a householder to predict whether they would be able to reach the emergency services from home via their mobile?
>> look at coverage maps from every network.
>
> Network Cell Info Lite will tell you about your network(s), the pro version may do it for all.

Beg to differ. The type of modulation will have little if any effect on
signal penetration. The frequency used <will> affect penetration.

In terms of understanding, in the early days 1G and then 2G were mostly
on 900MHz or 1800MHz bands and relatively high power. 1G worked better
because it was analogue and the human brain is good at decyphering
speech etc out of noise. When we went digital the signal either stopped
cliff-edge style, or went burbly which was nigh impossible to understand
- you've only got to listen to a poor DAB signal to verify that!
3G - about to pass into history - is all around 2110MHz, and 4G/5G are
not yet using much of the 800MHz and 700MHz that have been opened up for
them. Rather they are using higher frequencies (pushing or over 3GHz)
which also don't penetrate too well and run at minimal power.

Woody <harrogate3@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> On Sun 06/08/2023 20:05, notya...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Thursday, 3 August 2023 at 17:27:12 UTC+1, Andy Burns wrote:
>>> John Geddes wrote:
>>>
>>>> Can anyone point me to a coverage map that shows where one should be
>>>> able to make a 999 call from inside a building using a mobile phone?
>>> Doubtful you'll find a specific map, but anywhere that gets a signal
>>> from any UK network, not just the network you're with.
>>
>> You may need to log out and then select make emergency call when asked for your PIN.
>>
>>>> I understand that 999/112 calls can use something akin to 1G
>>> Err, no. They can only use networks that still exist, 1G in the UK has
>>> been gone for twenty years.
>> +1
>> 2G has the greatest penetration.
>>>
>>> Given that 3G is already been started turning off, then in the near
>>> future, what's going to be available is 2G + 4G + 5G and depending on
>>> your phone maybe VoWiFi if you're somewhere that has wifi you can
>>> connect to (and isn't suffering a power cut).
>>>> Other than making a test call to 999 (which seems a very bad idea)
>>> A very bad idea
>>>> how is a householder to predict whether they would be able to reach
>>>> the emergency services from home via their mobile?
>>> look at coverage maps from every network.
>>
>> Network Cell Info Lite will tell you about your network(s), the pro
>> version may do it for all.
>
>
> Beg to differ. The type of modulation will have little if any effect on
> signal penetration. The frequency used <will> affect penetration.
>
> In terms of understanding, in the early days 1G and then 2G were mostly
> on 900MHz or 1800MHz bands and relatively high power. 1G worked better
> because it was analogue and the human brain is good at decyphering
> speech etc out of noise. When we went digital the signal either stopped
> cliff-edge style, or went burbly which was nigh impossible to understand
> - you've only got to listen to a poor DAB signal to verify that!
> 3G - about to pass into history - is all around 2110MHz, and 4G/5G are
> not yet using much of the 800MHz and 700MHz that have been opened up for
> them. Rather they are using higher frequencies (pushing or over 3GHz)
> which also don't penetrate too well and run at minimal power.
>

The use of the various frequency bands is described here

https://pedroc.co.uk/content/uk-commercial-mobile-spectrum

On Mon 07/08/2023 06:49, Tweed wrote:
> Woody <harrogate3@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>> On Sun 06/08/2023 20:05, notya...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Thursday, 3 August 2023 at 17:27:12 UTC+1, Andy Burns wrote:
>>>> John Geddes wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Can anyone point me to a coverage map that shows where one should be
>>>>> able to make a 999 call from inside a building using a mobile phone?
>>>> Doubtful you'll find a specific map, but anywhere that gets a signal
>>>> from any UK network, not just the network you're with.
>>>
>>> You may need to log out and then select make emergency call when asked for your PIN.
>>>
>>>>> I understand that 999/112 calls can use something akin to 1G
>>>> Err, no. They can only use networks that still exist, 1G in the UK has
>>>> been gone for twenty years.
>>> +1
>>> 2G has the greatest penetration.
>>>>
>>>> Given that 3G is already been started turning off, then in the near
>>>> future, what's going to be available is 2G + 4G + 5G and depending on
>>>> your phone maybe VoWiFi if you're somewhere that has wifi you can
>>>> connect to (and isn't suffering a power cut).
>>>>> Other than making a test call to 999 (which seems a very bad idea)
>>>> A very bad idea
>>>>> how is a householder to predict whether they would be able to reach
>>>>> the emergency services from home via their mobile?
>>>> look at coverage maps from every network.
>>>
>>> Network Cell Info Lite will tell you about your network(s), the pro
>>> version may do it for all.
>>
>>
>> Beg to differ. The type of modulation will have little if any effect on
>> signal penetration. The frequency used <will> affect penetration.
>>
>> In terms of understanding, in the early days 1G and then 2G were mostly
>> on 900MHz or 1800MHz bands and relatively high power. 1G worked better
>> because it was analogue and the human brain is good at decyphering
>> speech etc out of noise. When we went digital the signal either stopped
>> cliff-edge style, or went burbly which was nigh impossible to understand
>> - you've only got to listen to a poor DAB signal to verify that!
>> 3G - about to pass into history - is all around 2110MHz, and 4G/5G are
>> not yet using much of the 800MHz and 700MHz that have been opened up for
>> them. Rather they are using higher frequencies (pushing or over 3GHz)
>> which also don't penetrate too well and run at minimal power.
>>
>
> The use of the various frequency bands is described here
>
> https://pedroc.co.uk/content/uk-commercial-mobile-spectrum
>
>

Thanks for the support.

The table shows what has been allocated but it doesn't reveal who is
actually using what.

Woody <harrogate3@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> On Mon 07/08/2023 06:49, Tweed wrote:
>> Woody <harrogate3@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>> On Sun 06/08/2023 20:05, notya...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Thursday, 3 August 2023 at 17:27:12 UTC+1, Andy Burns wrote:
>>>>> John Geddes wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Can anyone point me to a coverage map that shows where one should be
>>>>>> able to make a 999 call from inside a building using a mobile phone?
>>>>> Doubtful you'll find a specific map, but anywhere that gets a signal
>>>>> from any UK network, not just the network you're with.
>>>>
>>>> You may need to log out and then select make emergency call when asked for your PIN.
>>>>
>>>>>> I understand that 999/112 calls can use something akin to 1G
>>>>> Err, no. They can only use networks that still exist, 1G in the UK has
>>>>> been gone for twenty years.
>>>> +1
>>>> 2G has the greatest penetration.
>>>>>
>>>>> Given that 3G is already been started turning off, then in the near
>>>>> future, what's going to be available is 2G + 4G + 5G and depending on
>>>>> your phone maybe VoWiFi if you're somewhere that has wifi you can
>>>>> connect to (and isn't suffering a power cut).
>>>>>> Other than making a test call to 999 (which seems a very bad idea)
>>>>> A very bad idea
>>>>>> how is a householder to predict whether they would be able to reach
>>>>>> the emergency services from home via their mobile?
>>>>> look at coverage maps from every network.
>>>>
>>>> Network Cell Info Lite will tell you about your network(s), the pro
>>>> version may do it for all.
>>>
>>>
>>> Beg to differ. The type of modulation will have little if any effect on
>>> signal penetration. The frequency used <will> affect penetration.
>>>
>>> In terms of understanding, in the early days 1G and then 2G were mostly
>>> on 900MHz or 1800MHz bands and relatively high power. 1G worked better
>>> because it was analogue and the human brain is good at decyphering
>>> speech etc out of noise. When we went digital the signal either stopped
>>> cliff-edge style, or went burbly which was nigh impossible to understand
>>> - you've only got to listen to a poor DAB signal to verify that!
>>> 3G - about to pass into history - is all around 2110MHz, and 4G/5G are
>>> not yet using much of the 800MHz and 700MHz that have been opened up for
>>> them. Rather they are using higher frequencies (pushing or over 3GHz)
>>> which also don't penetrate too well and run at minimal power.
>>>
>>
>> The use of the various frequency bands is described here
>>
>> https://pedroc.co.uk/content/uk-commercial-mobile-spectrum
>>
>>
>
> Thanks for the support.
>
> The table shows what has been allocated but it doesn't reveal who is
> actually using what.
>

It shows both. These days Ofcom doesn’t define the use (ie 2G, 3G etc) of
each band, only who has paid for it. The also table describes what forms of
modulation have been found to be in use as well.

I suspect it’s going to be a rapidly changing situation, with 3G spectrum
being converted to 4/5G and increasing use of the lower frequency ex-TV
bands. If Vodafone and Three merge there will be even more musical chairs.

As to the OP’s original question, the best way to find out what operators
are available in your house is to perform a manual scan on your phone. This
not only shows what signals are reaching your property, but also shows what
your phone is capable of receiving. Not all phones work on all available
bands.

>
> Beg to differ. The type of modulation will have little if any effect on
> signal penetration. The frequency used <will> affect penetration.
>
> In terms of understanding, in the early days 1G and then 2G were mostly
> on 900MHz or 1800MHz bands and relatively high power. 1G worked better
> because it was analogue and the human brain is good at decyphering
> speech etc out of noise. When we went digital the signal either stopped
> cliff-edge style, or went burbly which was nigh impossible to understand
> - you've only got to listen to a poor DAB signal to verify that!
> 3G - about to pass into history - is all around 2110MHz, and 4G/5G are
> not yet using much of the 800MHz and 700MHz that have been opened up for
> them. Rather they are using higher frequencies (pushing or over 3GHz)
> which also don't penetrate too well and run at minimal power.

And I beg to differ from your differing

During my days of commissioning microwave links (for some of the
networks now being dismantled) I noticed that the later generation
256QUAM links had significantly worse fade margins than the 16 QUAM
variants they were replacing IN THE SAME FREQUENCY BAND

And years earlier, in the dawn of GSM time around 1992 the same company
were using GMSK radios instead of QPSK in order to improve performance

All of this means that you will need a higher power signal to penetrate
if you are using a more complex modulation scheme

Basically, if you wish to increase throughput / capacity then you either
need more bandwidth or a more complex modulation scheme - there’s no
such thing as a free lunch

--
random signature text inserted here

On Sunday, 6 August 2023 at 22:54:26 UTC+1, Woody wrote:
> On Sun 06/08/2023 20:05, notya...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Thursday, 3 August 2023 at 17:27:12 UTC+1, Andy Burns wrote:
> >> John Geddes wrote:
> >>
> >>> Can anyone point me to a coverage map that shows where one should be able to make a 999 call from inside a building using a mobile phone?
> >> Doubtful you'll find a specific map, but anywhere that gets a signal
> >> from any UK network, not just the network you're with.
> >
> > You may need to log out and then select make emergency call when asked for your PIN.
> >
> >>> I understand that 999/112 calls can use something akin to 1G
> >> Err, no. They can only use networks that still exist, 1G in the UK has
> >> been gone for twenty years.
> > +1
> > 2G has the greatest penetration.
> >>
> >> Given that 3G is already been started turning off, then in the near
> >> future, what's going to be available is 2G + 4G + 5G and depending on
> >> your phone maybe VoWiFi if you're somewhere that has wifi you can
> >> connect to (and isn't suffering a power cut).
> >>> Other than making a test call to 999 (which seems a very bad idea)
> >> A very bad idea
> >>> how is a householder to predict whether they would be able to reach the emergency services from home via their mobile?
> >> look at coverage maps from every network.
> >
> > Network Cell Info Lite will tell you about your network(s), the pro version may do it for all.
> Beg to differ. The type of modulation will have little if any effect on
> signal penetration. The frequency used <will> affect penetration.

Indeed it will.

>
> In terms of understanding, in the early days 1G and then 2G were mostly
> on 900MHz or 1800MHz bands and relatively high power. 1G worked better
> because it was analogue and the human brain is good at deciphering
> speech etc out of noise. When we went digital the signal either stopped
> cliff-edge style, or went burbly which was nigh impossible to understand
> - you've only got to listen to a poor DAB signal to verify that!
> 3G - about to pass into history - is all around 2110MHz, and 4G/5G are
> not yet using much of the 800MHz and 700MHz that have been opened up for
> them. Rather they are using higher frequencies (pushing or over 3GHz)
> which also don't penetrate too well and run at minimal power.

O2 and Voda were the original cellular networks and their 2G still runs on 900MHz.

BT / EE acquired 700-800MHz slots when the TV band was shrunk and IIRC they run 4G in there.

As for Three - well good luck....

On 07/08/2023 09:13, Abandoned_Trolley wrote:
> All of this means that you will need a higher power signal to penetrate
> if you are using a more complex modulation scheme
Actually, there is a concept of coding gain, that means the opposite can
apply, although the change from 16QAM to 256QAM is not one that produces
any coding gain.
>
> Basically, if you wish to increase throughput / capacity then you either
> need more bandwidth or a more complex modulation scheme - there’s no
> such thing as a free lunch
Power (signal to noise ratio) is also a factor, and more complex
modulation, at least when faced with truly random noise, is getting
close to theoretical limits (Shannon-Hartley limit).
>

On Mon 07/08/2023 09:13, Abandoned_Trolley wrote:
>
>>
>> Beg to differ. The type of modulation will have little if any effect
>> on signal penetration. The frequency used <will> affect penetration.
>>
>> In terms of understanding, in the early days 1G and then 2G were
>> mostly on 900MHz or 1800MHz bands and relatively high power. 1G worked
>> better because it was analogue and the human brain is good at
>> decyphering speech etc out of noise. When we went digital the signal
>> either stopped cliff-edge style, or went burbly which was nigh
>> impossible to understand - you've only got to listen to a poor DAB
>> signal to verify that!
>> 3G - about to pass into history - is all around 2110MHz, and 4G/5G are
>> not yet using much of the 800MHz and 700MHz that have been opened up
>> for them. Rather they are using higher frequencies (pushing or over
>> 3GHz) which also don't penetrate too well and run at minimal power.
>
>
>
> And I beg to differ from your differing
>
> During my days of commissioning microwave links (for some of the
> networks now being dismantled) I noticed that the later generation
> 256QUAM links had significantly worse fade margins than the 16 QUAM
> variants they were replacing IN THE SAME FREQUENCY BAND
>
> And years earlier, in the dawn of GSM time around 1992 the same company
> were using GMSK radios instead of QPSK in order to improve performance
>
> All of this means that you will need a higher power signal to penetrate
> if you are using a more complex modulation scheme
>
> Basically, if you wish to increase throughput / capacity then you either
> need more bandwidth or a more complex modulation scheme - there’s no
> such thing as a free lunch
>
>
>
I interpreted 'penetration' as the ability of a signal to be received
inside a building - nothing to do with fade margin on a point-to-point link.

>>
> I interpreted 'penetration' as the ability of a signal to be received
> inside a building - nothing to do with fade margin on a point-to-point
> link.

Maybe ... but if you are left with hardly any signal after penetrating
the building, it might amount to the same thing.

If the signal gets too close to the noise floor then the system is going
to drop out at some point

--
random signature text inserted here