According to Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>:
W>>It's all baked into their fraud model. If you use a card in a way that is
>>very different from your usual pattern, it's likely to be declined, e.g., you
>>nornally buy groceries, and suddenly you're buying two wide screen televisions.
>
>What's the contactless limit - in the UK it was �30 until quite
>recently. You couldn't buy even one wide screen television for that.

It varies by bank. American Express is reported to have a $200 limit.
I couldn't tell you what the limit for my bank (HSBC) is other than
it's more than I've ever spent at the grocery store.

--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

In message <t95ko6$2i26$1@gal.iecc.com>, at 00:26:46 on Sat, 25 Jun
2022, John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> remarked:
>According to Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>:
>W>>It's all baked into their fraud model. If you use a card in a way that is
>>>very different from your usual pattern, it's likely to be declined, e.g., you
>>>nornally buy groceries, and suddenly you're buying two wide screen
>>>televisions.
>>
>>What's the contactless limit - in the UK it was £30 until quite
>>recently. You couldn't buy even one wide screen television for that.
>
>It varies by bank. American Express is reported to have a $200 limit.
>I couldn't tell you what the limit for my bank (HSBC) is other than
>it's more than I've ever spent at the grocery store.

In the UK they all claim it's the same (recently increased to £100). I
often spend more than that in a grocery store.
--
Roland Perry

On Sat, 25 Jun 2022 10:44:14 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <t95ko6$2i26$1@gal.iecc.com>, at 00:26:46 on Sat, 25 Jun
>2022, John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> remarked:
>>According to Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>:
>>W>>It's all baked into their fraud model. If you use a card in a way that is
>>>>very different from your usual pattern, it's likely to be declined, e.g., you
>>>>nornally buy groceries, and suddenly you're buying two wide screen
>>>>televisions.
>>>
>>>What's the contactless limit - in the UK it was £30 until quite
>>>recently. You couldn't buy even one wide screen television for that.
>>
>>It varies by bank. American Express is reported to have a $200 limit.
>>I couldn't tell you what the limit for my bank (HSBC) is other than
>>it's more than I've ever spent at the grocery store.
>
>In the UK they all claim it's the same (recently increased to £100).
>
Set by a coordinating/cooperating body? AFAIAA individual retailers
can still have a lower floor limit which forces Chip and PIN at a
lesser amount.

>I often spend more than that in a grocery store.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t95ko6$2i26$1@gal.iecc.com>, at 00:26:46 on Sat, 25 Jun
> 2022, John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> remarked:
>> According to Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>:
>>>> It's all baked into their fraud model. If you use a card in a way that is
>>>> very different from your usual pattern, it's likely to be declined, e.g., you
>>>> nornally buy groceries, and suddenly you're buying two wide screen
>>>> televisions.
>>>
>>> What's the contactless limit - in the UK it was £30 until quite
>>> recently. You couldn't buy even one wide screen television for that.
>>
>> It varies by bank. American Express is reported to have a $200 limit.
>> I couldn't tell you what the limit for my bank (HSBC) is other than
>> it's more than I've ever spent at the grocery store.
>
> In the UK they all claim it's the same (recently increased to £100). I
> often spend more than that in a grocery store.

They do claim that… but there are plenty of retailers who have not updated
their systems to allow it - deliberately or otherwise.

See also Apple Pay supposedly having no limit at all… but many retailers
have not got that set up on their tills.

My local WH Smith has a self service till where the ‘contactless’ payment
method button (which is oddly separate to the chip and pin button) is
disabled if the total is above £40. I’m totally sure the card reader would
allow it, they do at the staffed tills, but no one has updated the self
service till to allow it to happen!

Lew

In message <kq1ebhp2mlp4407dum8dpde5to6e3ere53@4ax.com>, at 14:05:11 on
Sat, 25 Jun 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
remarked:
>On Sat, 25 Jun 2022 10:44:14 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <t95ko6$2i26$1@gal.iecc.com>, at 00:26:46 on Sat, 25 Jun
>>2022, John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> remarked:
>>>According to Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>:
>>>W>>It's all baked into their fraud model. If you use a card in a way that is
>>>>>very different from your usual pattern, it's likely to be declined,
>>>>>e.g., you
>>>>>nornally buy groceries, and suddenly you're buying two wide screen
>>>>>televisions.
>>>>
>>>>What's the contactless limit - in the UK it was £30 until quite
>>>>recently. You couldn't buy even one wide screen television for that.
>>>
>>>It varies by bank. American Express is reported to have a $200 limit.
>>>I couldn't tell you what the limit for my bank (HSBC) is other than
>>>it's more than I've ever spent at the grocery store.
>>
>>In the UK they all claim it's the same (recently increased to £100).
>>
>Set by a coordinating/cooperating body?

Yes.

>AFAIAA individual retailers can still have a lower floor limit which
>forces Chip and PIN at a lesser amount.

Volunteered by the store, or imposed by the banking risk assessors?

FWIW none of the material I've read about the way the limit has
incremented quite recently from £30 to £100 has mentioned such a thing.
Or maybe they hope no-one has noticed their local store never does £99
transactions.

>>I often spend more than that in a grocery store.

--
Roland Perry

In message <237464.677855020.445661.email-nowhere.com@web.aioe.org>, at
13:08:40 on Sat, 25 Jun 2022, Lew 1 <email@nowhere.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t95ko6$2i26$1@gal.iecc.com>, at 00:26:46 on Sat, 25 Jun
>> 2022, John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> remarked:
>>> According to Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>:
>>>>> It's all baked into their fraud model. If you use a card in a way that is
>>>>> very different from your usual pattern, it's likely to be
>>>>>declined, e.g., you
>>>>> nornally buy groceries, and suddenly you're buying two wide screen
>>>>> televisions.
>>>>
>>>> What's the contactless limit - in the UK it was £30 until quite
>>>> recently. You couldn't buy even one wide screen television for that.
>>>
>>> It varies by bank. American Express is reported to have a $200 limit.
>>> I couldn't tell you what the limit for my bank (HSBC) is other than
>>> it's more than I've ever spent at the grocery store.
>>
>> In the UK they all claim it's the same (recently increased to £100). I
>> often spend more than that in a grocery store.
>
>They do claim that… but there are plenty of retailers who have not updated
>their systems to allow it - deliberately or otherwise.

I've not found one yet.

>See also Apple Pay supposedly having no limit at all… but many retailers
>have not got that set up on their tills.

cf Amex and their "No preset spending limit", which actually meant "we
will change your spending limit up and down on a whim, because it's
not 'set' ".

>My local WH Smith has a self service till where the ‘contactless’ payment
>method button (which is oddly separate to the chip and pin button) is
>disabled if the total is above £40. I’m totally sure the card reader would
>allow it, they do at the staffed tills, but no one has updated the self
>service till to allow it to happen!

--
Roland Perry

On 25/06/2022 10:44, Roland Perry wrote:
> In the UK they all claim it's the same (recently increased to £100). I often spend more than that in a grocery store.

The limit for fuel purchase with pay-at-pump still seems to be £100. I wonder when they will have to raise that, given that filling a gas-guzzler is now likely to cost more than that?

--
Clive Page

On Sat, 25 Jun 2022 15:09:55 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <kq1ebhp2mlp4407dum8dpde5to6e3ere53@4ax.com>, at 14:05:11 on
>Sat, 25 Jun 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>remarked:
>>On Sat, 25 Jun 2022 10:44:14 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>In message <t95ko6$2i26$1@gal.iecc.com>, at 00:26:46 on Sat, 25 Jun
>>>2022, John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> remarked:
>>>>According to Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>:
>>>>W>>It's all baked into their fraud model. If you use a card in a way that is
>>>>>>very different from your usual pattern, it's likely to be declined,
>>>>>>e.g., you
>>>>>>nornally buy groceries, and suddenly you're buying two wide screen
>>>>>>televisions.
>>>>>
>>>>>What's the contactless limit - in the UK it was £30 until quite
>>>>>recently. You couldn't buy even one wide screen television for that.
>>>>
>>>>It varies by bank. American Express is reported to have a $200 limit.
>>>>I couldn't tell you what the limit for my bank (HSBC) is other than
>>>>it's more than I've ever spent at the grocery store.
>>>
>>>In the UK they all claim it's the same (recently increased to £100).
>>>
>>Set by a coordinating/cooperating body?
>
>Yes.
>
>>AFAIAA individual retailers can still have a lower floor limit which
>>forces Chip and PIN at a lesser amount.
>
>Volunteered by the store, or imposed by the banking risk assessors?
>
Or both in cooperation? The exceptions I have experienced were back in
mag stripe days at individual supermarkets which is suggestive of
localised fraud. I wouldn't expect the bank to actively manage a
supermarket's fraud risk beyond supplying lists of bad transactions
thus leaving it to the supermarket to take required action.

>FWIW none of the material I've read about the way the limit has
>incremented quite recently from £30 to £100 has mentioned such a thing.
>Or maybe they hope no-one has noticed their local store never does £99
>transactions.
>
It isn't uncommon for all details of a financial fraud not to be
revealed until told in open court. By that time any novel methods
would have been more fully discovered in the investigation and had
enough time to be acted against.

>>>I often spend more than that in a grocery store.

On Sat, 25 Jun 2022 16:53:35 +0100, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu>
wrote:

>On 25/06/2022 10:44, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In the UK they all claim it's the same (recently increased to £100). I often spend more than that in a grocery store.
>
>The limit for fuel purchase with pay-at-pump still seems to be £100. I wonder when they will have to raise that, given that filling a gas-guzzler is now likely to cost more than that?
>
They didn't raise it before when a tankful could exceed the limit. The
pump stopped at the limit. It is possible to fill up more than once at
the same place but I have never done it at the same pump.

In message <4djebh17drj4ku2eg18bap347jfnevb4vh@4ax.com>, at 19:10:58 on
Sat, 25 Jun 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
remarked:
>On Sat, 25 Jun 2022 15:09:55 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <kq1ebhp2mlp4407dum8dpde5to6e3ere53@4ax.com>, at 14:05:11 on
>>Sat, 25 Jun 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>>remarked:
>>>On Sat, 25 Jun 2022 10:44:14 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>In message <t95ko6$2i26$1@gal.iecc.com>, at 00:26:46 on Sat, 25 Jun
>>>>2022, John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> remarked:
>>>>>According to Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>:
>>>>>W>>It's all baked into their fraud model. If you use a card in a
>>>>>W>>way that is very different from your usual pattern, it's likely
>>>>>W>>to be declined, e.g., you nornally buy groceries, and suddenly
>>>>>W>>you're buying two wide screen
>>>>>W>>televisions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>What's the contactless limit - in the UK it was £30 until quite
>>>>>>recently. You couldn't buy even one wide screen television for that.
>>>>>
>>>>>It varies by bank. American Express is reported to have a $200 limit.
>>>>>I couldn't tell you what the limit for my bank (HSBC) is other than
>>>>>it's more than I've ever spent at the grocery store.
>>>>
>>>>In the UK they all claim it's the same (recently increased to £100).
>>>>
>>>Set by a coordinating/cooperating body?
>>
>>Yes.
>>
>>>AFAIAA individual retailers can still have a lower floor limit which
>>>forces Chip and PIN at a lesser amount.
>>
>>Volunteered by the store, or imposed by the banking risk assessors?
>>
>Or both in cooperation? The exceptions I have experienced were back in
>mag stripe days at individual supermarkets which is suggestive of
>localised fraud.

So very much has changed since then.

>I wouldn't expect the bank to actively manage a supermarket's fraud
>risk beyond supplying lists of bad transactions thus leaving it to the
>supermarket to take required action.

Supermarket contactless terminals are online, so the bank is handling
stolen/unfunded cards. Back in the day when they weren't online, each
shop did indeed have its individual floor-limit, which depended on the
characteristics of what was being sold, as well as the likely
demographic of their customers.

>>FWIW none of the material I've read about the way the limit has
>>incremented quite recently from £30 to £100 has mentioned such a thing.
>>Or maybe they hope no-one has noticed their local store never does £99
>>transactions.
>>
>It isn't uncommon for all details of a financial fraud not to be
>revealed until told in open court. By that time any novel methods
>would have been more fully discovered in the investigation and had
>enough time to be acted against.

That's not the point here. The publicity for £100 limit doesn't come
with disclaimers about maybe it not working in some stores. And
customers will complain about things like that (to friends and on social
media) if they find that it was a lie. And you'd see people at the tills
having arguments with the operator about why their £80 purchase didn't
go through, and it'd need a manager to come out of hiding and spend an
inordinate time tapping on the screen to split it into multiple
payments, or something. Meanwhile a queue of tutting customers is
building up behind.

>>>>I often spend more than that in a grocery store.

--
Roland Perry

In message <jhopbuFb5rlU2@mid.individual.net>, at 16:53:35 on Sat, 25
Jun 2022, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
>On 25/06/2022 10:44, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In the UK they all claim it's the same (recently increased to £100).
>>I often spend more than that in a grocery store.
>
>The limit for fuel purchase with pay-at-pump still seems to be £100. I
>wonder when they will have to raise that, given that filling a
>gas-guzzler is now likely to cost more than that?

I doubt they will, because it involves taking a £100[/£99] payment, and
then refunding the balance (not necessarily guaranteed to be
immediately), and some people who only have £110 in their account (and
wanted to buy £20 worth) or who have £160 and will be embarrassed if
£150 (or whatever the new limit might be) is suspended, will get a bit
angry at that.

It's even possible there's a Y2K type issue with going into three
figures (the limit's £99 surely, not £100) for those financial
transactions.
--
Roland Perry

In message <dujebhl3la47s6vg2fkcltlff3emiu1j1j@4ax.com>, at 19:13:53 on
Sat, 25 Jun 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
remarked:
>On Sat, 25 Jun 2022 16:53:35 +0100, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu>
>wrote:
>
>>On 25/06/2022 10:44, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In the UK they all claim it's the same (recently increased to £100).
>>>I often spend more than that in a grocery store.
>>
>>The limit for fuel purchase with pay-at-pump still seems to be £100. I
>>wonder when they will have to raise that, given that filling a
>>gas-guzzler is now likely to cost more than that?
>>
>They didn't raise it before when a tankful could exceed the limit. The
>pump stopped at the limit. It is possible to fill up more than once at
>the same place but I have never done it at the same pump.

Are you saying that if you elect "pay at Kiosk" it'll also stop at £99?

I remember when they stopped at £10, and one of my customers was a
design engineer at a petrol pump manufacturer and confided this was a
"Y2K" type issue (although many years before the Millennium of course).

I was interested because I had a Land Rover with a 20 gallon tank.
--
Roland Perry

On Sun, 26 Jun 2022 08:24:38 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <dujebhl3la47s6vg2fkcltlff3emiu1j1j@4ax.com>, at 19:13:53 on
>Sat, 25 Jun 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>remarked:
>>On Sat, 25 Jun 2022 16:53:35 +0100, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On 25/06/2022 10:44, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In the UK they all claim it's the same (recently increased to £100).
>>>>I often spend more than that in a grocery store.
>>>
>>>The limit for fuel purchase with pay-at-pump still seems to be £100. I
>>>wonder when they will have to raise that, given that filling a
>>>gas-guzzler is now likely to cost more than that?
>>>
>>They didn't raise it before when a tankful could exceed the limit. The
>>pump stopped at the limit. It is possible to fill up more than once at
>>the same place but I have never done it at the same pump.
>
>Are you saying that if you elect "pay at Kiosk" it'll also stop at £99?
>
I have only hit a pump limit once and that was years ago. I haven't
reached 100-00 yet.

>I remember when they stopped at £10, and one of my customers was a
>design engineer at a petrol pump manufacturer and confided this was a
>"Y2K" type issue (although many years before the Millennium of course).
>
>I was interested because I had a Land Rover with a 20 gallon tank.

In message <dohgbh13hg86jbt34r1qh7aqk9eio1bv7e@4ax.com>, at 12:54:51 on
Sun, 26 Jun 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
remarked:
>On Sun, 26 Jun 2022 08:24:38 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <dujebhl3la47s6vg2fkcltlff3emiu1j1j@4ax.com>, at 19:13:53 on
>>Sat, 25 Jun 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>>remarked:
>>>On Sat, 25 Jun 2022 16:53:35 +0100, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>On 25/06/2022 10:44, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In the UK they all claim it's the same (recently increased to £100).
>>>>>I often spend more than that in a grocery store.
>>>>
>>>>The limit for fuel purchase with pay-at-pump still seems to be £100. I
>>>>wonder when they will have to raise that, given that filling a
>>>>gas-guzzler is now likely to cost more than that?
>>>>
>>>They didn't raise it before when a tankful could exceed the limit. The
>>>pump stopped at the limit. It is possible to fill up more than once at
>>>the same place but I have never done it at the same pump.
>>
>>Are you saying that if you elect "pay at Kiosk" it'll also stop at £99?
>>
>I have only hit a pump limit once and that was years ago. I haven't
>reached 100-00 yet.

I reached £99 about a month ago [fx: searches for receipt] almost
exactly a month ago. That was 55l @179.9p, and that same filling station
is now £199.99/l - although I'd hope to find somewhere cheaper.

Normally don't let it get that low, however, in case they all run out
because of panic buying.

Hmm, apparently my car has 68l* tank, and yet at 55l it's screaming
"last chance to fill me up".

*Probably 15 gallons, equals 68.2l

>>I remember when they stopped at £10, and one of my customers was a
>>design engineer at a petrol pump manufacturer and confided this was a
>>"Y2K" type issue (although many years before the Millennium of course).
>>
>>I was interested because I had a Land Rover with a 20 gallon tank.

--
Roland Perry