Rocksolid Light

Welcome to novaBBS (click a section below)

mail  files  register  newsreader  groups  login

Message-ID:  

19 May, 2024: Line wrapping has been changed to be consistent with Usenet standards.
 If you find that it is broken please let me know here rocksolid.nodes.help


aus+uk / uk.transport.london / Re: Liz PED PIS bug

SubjectAuthor
* Liz PED PIS bugRecliner
+* Liz PED PIS bugRoland Perry
|+* Liz PED PIS bugAnna Noyd-Dryver
||+- Liz PED PIS bugRoland Perry
||`* Liz PED PIS bugmartin.coffee
|| `* Liz PED PIS bugAnna Noyd-Dryver
||  `- Liz PED PIS bugmartin.coffee
|+* Liz PED PIS bugMuttley
||`* Liz PED PIS bugAnna Noyd-Dryver
|| `- Liz PED PIS bugMuttley
|`* Liz PED PIS bugClive Page
| +- Liz PED PIS bugAnna Noyd-Dryver
| `- Liz PED PIS bugCharles Ellson
`* Liz PED PIS bugCertes
 `* Liz PED PIS bugRoland Perry
  `* Liz PED PIS bugAnna Noyd-Dryver
   +* Liz PED PIS bugRoland Perry
   |`- Liz PED PIS bugAnna Noyd-Dryver
   `- Liz PED PIS bugRoland Perry

1
Liz PED PIS bug

<03m5chp8csd24tarcv38fcr23d1p1pgssl@4ax.com>

  copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=14076&group=uk.transport.london#14076

  copy link   Newsgroups: uk.transport.london uk.railway
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!feeder1-2.proxad.net!proxad.net!feeder1-1.proxad.net!193.141.40.65.MISMATCH!npeer.as286.net!npeer-ng0.as286.net!peer01.ams1!peer.ams1.xlned.com!news.xlned.com!fx02.ams1.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.transport.london,uk.railway
Subject: Liz PED PIS bug
Message-ID: <03m5chp8csd24tarcv38fcr23d1p1pgssl@4ax.com>
User-Agent: ForteAgent/7.20.32.1218
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 9
X-Complaints-To: abuse@easynews.com
Organization: Forte - www.forteinc.com
X-Complaints-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly.
Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2022 13:14:23 +0100
X-Received-Bytes: 1267
 by: Recliner - Mon, 4 Jul 2022 12:14 UTC

We all know that the Elizabeth Line has been plagued with software problems, but I didn't expect, as a passenger, to be
able to spot a very visible bugs= more than a month after opening.

At Whitechapel station last week, I spotted that the displays over the PEDs seem not to know that the last couple of
trains had arrived and left, and still showed them as 'Due'. So they showed several trains all due at once, when the
trains had actually arrived on time, and left. The trains were running punctually, without problems, but the PED PISs
seem to have got stuck in a loop

<https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/albums/72177720300301029>

Re: Liz PED PIS bug

<s4ruoIJ$HuwiFAFB@perry.uk>

  copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=14077&group=uk.transport.london#14077

  copy link   Newsgroups: uk.transport.london uk.railway
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!news.uzoreto.com!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.transport.london,uk.railway
Subject: Re: Liz PED PIS bug
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 13:50:07 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <s4ruoIJ$HuwiFAFB@perry.uk>
References: <03m5chp8csd24tarcv38fcr23d1p1pgssl@4ax.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed
X-Trace: individual.net dAtybg4x4LRtixrC/1XrZASSpUAw9ZpC+1AkJdxCdJHxN9SZVV
X-Orig-Path: perry.co.uk!roland
Cancel-Lock: sha1:sMZ95UjwLFt9k85Hd0Gy1CIM7Dg=
User-Agent: Turnpike/6.07-M (<52l5fZdV$jhVf1U93hT62mJV+y>)
 by: Roland Perry - Mon, 4 Jul 2022 12:50 UTC

In message <03m5chp8csd24tarcv38fcr23d1p1pgssl@4ax.com>, at 13:14:23 on
Mon, 4 Jul 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:

>We all know that the Elizabeth Line has been plagued with software
>problems, but I didn't expect, as a passenger, to be
>able to spot a very visible bugs= more than a month after opening.

>At Whitechapel station last week, I spotted that the displays over the
>PEDs seem not to know that the last couple of trains had arrived and
>left, and still showed them as 'Due'. So they showed several trains all
>due at once, when the trains had actually arrived on time, and left.
>The trains were running punctually, without problems, but the PED PISs
>seem to have got stuck in a loop
>
><https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/albums/72177720300301029>

I didn't notice that, but at the one place I had time to observe, the
x-minutes on the doors was consistently one minute more optimistic than
the "secret" display intended for platform staff on the back wall of the
platform.

Trains being self-evidently not-arrived when the PIS said they were, or
the PIS having them in an impossible future arrival order, is something
I've seen quite a few times on National Rail stations.

I've attributed the impossible-arrival-order to perhaps the PIS at
multi-TOC stations being fed separately by the different TOCs. And as
one train can't overtake another [at such station approaches] and hence
destined to arrive one after the other, the various timings therefore
contradicting one another because the train-behind was temporarily
showing as arriving before the one ahead of it.
--
Roland Perry

Re: Liz PED PIS bug

<t9urr6$3d3gl$1@dont-email.me>

  copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=14078&group=uk.transport.london#14078

  copy link   Newsgroups: uk.transport.london uk.railway
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader01.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: non...@nowhere.net (Certes)
Newsgroups: uk.transport.london,uk.railway
Subject: Re: Liz PED PIS bug
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 15:01:09 +0100
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <t9urr6$3d3gl$1@dont-email.me>
References: <03m5chp8csd24tarcv38fcr23d1p1pgssl@4ax.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 14:01:10 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader01.eternal-september.org; posting-host="d50e120956acc3cb126aff70c3825a47";
logging-data="3575317"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1+dHEIjBAEp/MvrAiAasR6J"
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/78.14.0
Cancel-Lock: sha1:3LXsWE4A94BmU4FvHwlAhXkEJLY=
Content-Language: en-GB
In-Reply-To: <03m5chp8csd24tarcv38fcr23d1p1pgssl@4ax.com>
 by: Certes - Mon, 4 Jul 2022 14:01 UTC

On 04/07/2022 13:14, Recliner wrote:
> We all know that the Elizabeth Line has been plagued with software problems, but I didn't expect, as a passenger, to be
> able to spot a very visible bugs= more than a month after opening.
>
> At Whitechapel station last week, I spotted that the displays over the PEDs seem not to know that the last couple of
> trains had arrived and left, and still showed them as 'Due'. So they showed several trains all due at once, when the
> trains had actually arrived on time, and left. The trains were running punctually, without problems, but the PED PISs
> seem to have got stuck in a loop
>
> <https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/albums/72177720300301029>
>
It sounds as if a bit of kit that should detect when a train reaches
that platform, and is thus no longer Due, doesn't.

Re: Liz PED PIS bug

<RY6hwwM5kvwiFAws@perry.uk>

  copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=14079&group=uk.transport.london#14079

  copy link   Newsgroups: uk.transport.london uk.railway
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!news.uzoreto.com!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.transport.london,uk.railway
Subject: Re: Liz PED PIS bug
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 15:29:13 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <RY6hwwM5kvwiFAws@perry.uk>
References: <03m5chp8csd24tarcv38fcr23d1p1pgssl@4ax.com>
<t9urr6$3d3gl$1@dont-email.me>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed
X-Trace: individual.net Jw1geykIEMCmPUH5rEtfUAw5tadyFOiSJ1cYVqhh8WDpwDloG7
X-Orig-Path: perry.co.uk!roland
Cancel-Lock: sha1:Gkofq4Piuy6im+5I7q4Es4Zt3uA=
User-Agent: Turnpike/6.07-M (<5Bp5fFvR$jhiT1U9EhU62mVmGm>)
 by: Roland Perry - Mon, 4 Jul 2022 14:29 UTC

In message <t9urr6$3d3gl$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:01:09 on Mon, 4 Jul
2022, Certes <none@nowhere.net> remarked:
>On 04/07/2022 13:14, Recliner wrote:
>> We all know that the Elizabeth Line has been plagued with software
>>problems, but I didn't expect, as a passenger, to be
>> able to spot a very visible bugs= more than a month after opening.
>> At Whitechapel station last week, I spotted that the displays over
>>the PEDs seem not to know that the last couple of
>> trains had arrived and left, and still showed them as 'Due'. So they
>>showed several trains all due at once, when the
>> trains had actually arrived on time, and left. The trains were
>>running punctually, without problems, but the PED PISs
>> seem to have got stuck in a loop

>> <https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/albums/72177720300301029>
>>
>It sounds as if a bit of kit that should detect when a train reaches
>that platform, and is thus no longer Due, doesn't.

Wouldn't that be the mission critical bit of kit which says "Ok, train
has reached the platform, it's now OK to open the PEDs"?

Speaking of which, something I don't think I've seen mentioned before is
that with the trains shorter than [all/most?] platforms at the moment,
do they stop in the middle, or at one end. And if at one end, who
chooses which end, and do the relevant PIS over the never-going-to-open
PEDs tell passengers to wait elsewhere?

Another potential failure, is when I got off at Paddington westbound,
which has numerous on-platform and in-train announcements about everyone
getting off, a late-arriving couple dashed onto the platform [inevitably
wrong one at this stage] and onto the train, then the doors shut.

I wonder if the testing enrolled people with their brains congenitally
disengaged, or maybe people pretending their brains were disengaged?
--
Roland Perry

Re: Liz PED PIS bug

<t9v1o7$3dnsr$1@dont-email.me>

  copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=14080&group=uk.transport.london#14080

  copy link   Newsgroups: uk.railway uk.transport.london
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader01.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: ann...@noyd-dryver.com (Anna Noyd-Dryver)
Newsgroups: uk.railway,uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: Liz PED PIS bug
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 15:41:59 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 62
Message-ID: <t9v1o7$3dnsr$1@dont-email.me>
References: <03m5chp8csd24tarcv38fcr23d1p1pgssl@4ax.com>
<s4ruoIJ$HuwiFAFB@perry.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 15:41:59 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader01.eternal-september.org; posting-host="79d5e4abbc594e7f7aedd72ac5ea820d";
logging-data="3596187"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX18jP+YvcMKVNnuRhUQJ+sApSshlQdKMD8k="
User-Agent: NewsTap/5.5 (iPhone/iPod Touch)
Cancel-Lock: sha1:+vzcIPMez0Jk5PLO/rV/Z8GbECg=
sha1:ZXrOCzLARHuvvN/LsH3XxQBSgwE=
 by: Anna Noyd-Dryver - Mon, 4 Jul 2022 15:41 UTC

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <03m5chp8csd24tarcv38fcr23d1p1pgssl@4ax.com>, at 13:14:23 on
> Mon, 4 Jul 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>> We all know that the Elizabeth Line has been plagued with software
>> problems, but I didn't expect, as a passenger, to be
>> able to spot a very visible bugs= more than a month after opening.
>
>> At Whitechapel station last week, I spotted that the displays over the
>> PEDs seem not to know that the last couple of trains had arrived and
>> left, and still showed them as 'Due'. So they showed several trains all
>> due at once, when the trains had actually arrived on time, and left.
>> The trains were running punctually, without problems, but the PED PISs
>> seem to have got stuck in a loop
>>
>> <https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/albums/72177720300301029>
>
> I didn't notice that, but at the one place I had time to observe, the
> x-minutes on the doors was consistently one minute more optimistic than
> the "secret" display intended for platform staff on the back wall of the
> platform.
>
> Trains being self-evidently not-arrived when the PIS said they were,
>

Did they arrive very shortly afterwards?

If so, it seems likely that they change to 'arrived' when they enter the
track circuit in which the platform is situated. In certain locations this
might obviously be some distance before the platform itself. An obvious fix
would be to add a fixed delay (location-specific) between the track circuit
activation and the display changing.

> or
> the PIS having them in an impossible future arrival order, is something
> I've seen quite a few times on National Rail stations.
>
> I've attributed the impossible-arrival-order to perhaps the PIS at
> multi-TOC stations being fed separately by the different TOCs.
>

No, it'll be fed from the same NR database as RTT, Traksy etc.

> And as
> one train can't overtake another [at such station approaches] and hence
> destined to arrive one after the other, the various timings therefore
> contradicting one another because the train-behind was temporarily
> showing as arriving before the one ahead of it.

I can think of two reasons for this to happen. Most obvious is a converging
junction just before the station, and the signalling decision hasn't get
been made.

More common, perhaps, is a situation where a stopping train is running
late, and being caught up by a faster train. The PIS system just isn't
intelligent enough to take account of the track layout etc., so it gives
the faster train it's booked arrival time until it actually catches up with
the slower train and gets delayed passing one of the timing points.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Re: Liz PED PIS bug

<t9v2a6$3dpop$1@dont-email.me>

  copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=14081&group=uk.transport.london#14081

  copy link   Newsgroups: uk.railway uk.transport.london
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader01.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: ann...@noyd-dryver.com (Anna Noyd-Dryver)
Newsgroups: uk.railway,uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: Liz PED PIS bug
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 15:51:35 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 60
Message-ID: <t9v2a6$3dpop$1@dont-email.me>
References: <03m5chp8csd24tarcv38fcr23d1p1pgssl@4ax.com>
<t9urr6$3d3gl$1@dont-email.me>
<RY6hwwM5kvwiFAws@perry.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 15:51:35 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader01.eternal-september.org; posting-host="79d5e4abbc594e7f7aedd72ac5ea820d";
logging-data="3598105"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX185C8GpB/N9L8jJjKFgpcEWT4lUIgpkBPM="
User-Agent: NewsTap/5.5 (iPhone/iPod Touch)
Cancel-Lock: sha1:TjBwZTcoOa4nrLyY7dMiJYHNoJA=
sha1:xXOjOyku+UN/nvIFHCxnAqcHp/k=
 by: Anna Noyd-Dryver - Mon, 4 Jul 2022 15:51 UTC

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t9urr6$3d3gl$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:01:09 on Mon, 4 Jul
> 2022, Certes <none@nowhere.net> remarked:
>> On 04/07/2022 13:14, Recliner wrote:
>>> We all know that the Elizabeth Line has been plagued with software
>>> problems, but I didn't expect, as a passenger, to be
>>> able to spot a very visible bugs= more than a month after opening.
>>> At Whitechapel station last week, I spotted that the displays over
>>> the PEDs seem not to know that the last couple of
>>> trains had arrived and left, and still showed them as 'Due'. So they
>>> showed several trains all due at once, when the
>>> trains had actually arrived on time, and left. The trains were
>>> running punctually, without problems, but the PED PISs
>>> seem to have got stuck in a loop
>
>>> <https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/albums/72177720300301029>
>>>
>> It sounds as if a bit of kit that should detect when a train reaches
>> that platform, and is thus no longer Due, doesn't.
>
> Wouldn't that be the mission critical bit of kit which says "Ok, train
> has reached the platform, it's now OK to open the PEDs"?
>
> Speaking of which, something I don't think I've seen mentioned before is
> that with the trains shorter than [all/most?] platforms at the moment,
>

"At the moment" meaning "for the foreseeable future", presumably, as I'm
not aware of any expectation having been set for extending class 345 beyond
9 cars? (As opposed to 'making allowance for this to happen when required
in the future').

> do they stop in the middle, or at one end.

From observation, it's at the end; the arriving train draws right to the
far end of the platform.

> And if at one end, who
> chooses which end, and do the relevant PIS over the never-going-to-open
> PEDs tell passengers to wait elsewhere?

I'm not sure OTTOMH (and can't check for a couple of hours) that there are
even PEDs fitted in the platform screen there; OTOH having seen someone who
wasn't paying attention waiting there and having to trot down to the rear
of the train when it arrived, maybe there are.

> Another potential failure, is when I got off at Paddington westbound,
> which has numerous on-platform and in-train announcements about everyone
> getting off, a late-arriving couple dashed onto the platform [inevitably
> wrong one at this stage] and onto the train, then the doors shut.
>

Mainline and LU practice is that either the train is walked-through to
prove that it's empty, or the track and signalling to the reversing place
is to passenger standard.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Re: Liz PED PIS bug

<wXjZjePc+wwiFAEF@perry.uk>

  copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=14082&group=uk.transport.london#14082

  copy link   Newsgroups: uk.railway uk.transport.london
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.goja.nl.eu.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!news.szaf.org!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway,uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: Liz PED PIS bug
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 17:04:44 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
Lines: 68
Message-ID: <wXjZjePc+wwiFAEF@perry.uk>
References: <03m5chp8csd24tarcv38fcr23d1p1pgssl@4ax.com>
<s4ruoIJ$HuwiFAFB@perry.uk> <t9v1o7$3dnsr$1@dont-email.me>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed
X-Trace: individual.net ETB2TepCDFIE6e2EIThBpQgViAVGk312XDKenj8eeT41rKd9i3
X-Orig-Path: perry.co.uk!roland
Cancel-Lock: sha1:mhoVb5iV8698q3cItKj16cY+M2g=
User-Agent: Turnpike/6.07-M (<5xj5fFN1$jhQR1U9PhW62mVNOF>)
 by: Roland Perry - Mon, 4 Jul 2022 16:04 UTC

In message <t9v1o7$3dnsr$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:41:59 on Mon, 4 Jul
2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <03m5chp8csd24tarcv38fcr23d1p1pgssl@4ax.com>, at 13:14:23 on
>> Mon, 4 Jul 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>> We all know that the Elizabeth Line has been plagued with software
>>> problems, but I didn't expect, as a passenger, to be
>>> able to spot a very visible bugs= more than a month after opening.
>>
>>> At Whitechapel station last week, I spotted that the displays over the
>>> PEDs seem not to know that the last couple of trains had arrived and
>>> left, and still showed them as 'Due'. So they showed several trains all
>>> due at once, when the trains had actually arrived on time, and left.
>>> The trains were running punctually, without problems, but the PED PISs
>>> seem to have got stuck in a loop
>>>
>>> <https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/albums/72177720300301029>
>>
>> I didn't notice that, but at the one place I had time to observe, the
>> x-minutes on the doors was consistently one minute more optimistic than
>> the "secret" display intended for platform staff on the back wall of the
>> platform.
>>
>> Trains being self-evidently not-arrived when the PIS said they were,
>
>Did they arrive very shortly afterwards?

At the provincial National Rail stations in question, yes. FSVO
"shortly".

>If so, it seems likely that they change to 'arrived' when they enter the
>track circuit in which the platform is situated. In certain locations this
>might obviously be some distance before the platform itself. An obvious fix
>would be to add a fixed delay (location-specific) between the track circuit
>activation and the display changing.
>
>> or
>> the PIS having them in an impossible future arrival order, is something
>> I've seen quite a few times on National Rail stations.
>>
>> I've attributed the impossible-arrival-order to perhaps the PIS at
>> multi-TOC stations being fed separately by the different TOCs.
>
>No, it'll be fed from the same NR database as RTT, Traksy etc.
>
>> And as one train can't overtake another [at such station approaches]
>>and hence destined to arrive one after the other, the various timings
>>therefore contradicting one another because the train-behind was
>>temporarily showing as arriving before the one ahead of it.
>
>I can think of two reasons for this to happen. Most obvious is a converging
>junction just before the station, and the signalling decision hasn't get
>been made.
>
>More common, perhaps, is a situation where a stopping train is running
>late, and being caught up by a faster train.

In the provinces a surprising (for some) number of trains stop at almost
all stations.

>The PIS system just isn't intelligent enough to take account of the
>track layout etc., so it gives the faster train it's booked arrival
>time until it actually catches up with the slower train and gets
>delayed passing one of the timing points.

--
Roland Perry

Re: Liz PED PIS bug

<5R$7iFQsBxwiFA1Q@perry.uk>

  copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=14083&group=uk.transport.london#14083

  copy link   Newsgroups: uk.railway uk.transport.london
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.goja.nl.eu.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!news.szaf.org!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway,uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: Liz PED PIS bug
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 17:08:12 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <5R$7iFQsBxwiFA1Q@perry.uk>
References: <03m5chp8csd24tarcv38fcr23d1p1pgssl@4ax.com>
<t9urr6$3d3gl$1@dont-email.me> <RY6hwwM5kvwiFAws@perry.uk>
<t9v2a6$3dpop$1@dont-email.me>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed
X-Trace: individual.net gMw5QeNdKtROsDvg7baNwQ5MFpBuMWvFc3QBb1H0xqV7cOUt+G
X-Orig-Path: perry.co.uk!roland
Cancel-Lock: sha1:DyGm2PvSPjZjFkmvsSq/0Nrh8vM=
User-Agent: Turnpike/6.07-M (<5Gq5fZrx$jxmd1U9sxR62mJqoj>)
 by: Roland Perry - Mon, 4 Jul 2022 16:08 UTC

In message <t9v2a6$3dpop$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:51:35 on Mon, 4 Jul
2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t9urr6$3d3gl$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:01:09 on Mon, 4 Jul
>> 2022, Certes <none@nowhere.net> remarked:
>>> On 04/07/2022 13:14, Recliner wrote:
>>>> We all know that the Elizabeth Line has been plagued with software
>>>> problems, but I didn't expect, as a passenger, to be
>>>> able to spot a very visible bugs= more than a month after opening.
>>>> At Whitechapel station last week, I spotted that the displays over
>>>> the PEDs seem not to know that the last couple of
>>>> trains had arrived and left, and still showed them as 'Due'. So they
>>>> showed several trains all due at once, when the
>>>> trains had actually arrived on time, and left. The trains were
>>>> running punctually, without problems, but the PED PISs
>>>> seem to have got stuck in a loop
>>
>>>> <https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/albums/72177720300301029>
>>>>
>>> It sounds as if a bit of kit that should detect when a train reaches
>>> that platform, and is thus no longer Due, doesn't.
>>
>> Wouldn't that be the mission critical bit of kit which says "Ok, train
>> has reached the platform, it's now OK to open the PEDs"?
>>
>> Speaking of which, something I don't think I've seen mentioned before is
>> that with the trains shorter than [all/most?] platforms at the moment,
>
>"At the moment" meaning "for the foreseeable future", presumably, as I'm
>not aware of any expectation having been set for extending class 345 beyond
>9 cars? (As opposed to 'making allowance for this to happen when required
>in the future').
>
>> do they stop in the middle, or at one end.
>
>From observation, it's at the end; the arriving train draws right to the
>far end of the platform.

I'd need to do another field trip to confirm that. In particular
eastbound trains at Farringdon where they clearly expect most pax to
exit towards the rear.

>> And if at one end, who chooses which end, and do the relevant PIS
>>over the never-going-to-open PEDs tell passengers to wait elsewhere?
>
>I'm not sure OTTOMH (and can't check for a couple of hours) that there are
>even PEDs fitted in the platform screen there; OTOH having seen someone who
>wasn't paying attention waiting there and having to trot down to the rear
>of the train when it arrived, maybe there are.
>
>> Another potential failure, is when I got off at Paddington westbound,
>> which has numerous on-platform and in-train announcements about everyone
>> getting off, a late-arriving couple dashed onto the platform [inevitably
>> wrong one at this stage] and onto the train, then the doors shut.
>
>Mainline and LU practice is that either the train is walked-through to
>prove that it's empty, or the track and signalling to the reversing place
>is to passenger standard.

--
Roland Perry

Re: Liz PED PIS bug

<t9v3tc$3dudn$1@dont-email.me>

  copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=14084&group=uk.transport.london#14084

  copy link   Newsgroups: uk.railway uk.transport.london
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader01.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: martin.c...@round-midnight.org.uk
Newsgroups: uk.railway,uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: Liz PED PIS bug
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 17:18:52 +0100
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 63
Message-ID: <t9v3tc$3dudn$1@dont-email.me>
References: <03m5chp8csd24tarcv38fcr23d1p1pgssl@4ax.com>
<s4ruoIJ$HuwiFAFB@perry.uk> <t9v1o7$3dnsr$1@dont-email.me>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 16:18:52 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader01.eternal-september.org; posting-host="238affbe1dcc63af373d12db00805008";
logging-data="3602871"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX19cTiwD6hfb49USHbBxMHwce6CkCiCMOAY="
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/91.9.1
Cancel-Lock: sha1:n4A6c76VpUkccrpXfLQ44HGEEDQ=
In-Reply-To: <t9v1o7$3dnsr$1@dont-email.me>
Content-Language: en-GB
 by: martin.c...@round-midnight.org.uk - Mon, 4 Jul 2022 16:18 UTC

On 04/07/2022 16:41, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <03m5chp8csd24tarcv38fcr23d1p1pgssl@4ax.com>, at 13:14:23 on
>> Mon, 4 Jul 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>> We all know that the Elizabeth Line has been plagued with software
>>> problems, but I didn't expect, as a passenger, to be
>>> able to spot a very visible bugs= more than a month after opening.
>>
>>> At Whitechapel station last week, I spotted that the displays over the
>>> PEDs seem not to know that the last couple of trains had arrived and
>>> left, and still showed them as 'Due'. So they showed several trains all
>>> due at once, when the trains had actually arrived on time, and left.
>>> The trains were running punctually, without problems, but the PED PISs
>>> seem to have got stuck in a loop
>>>
>>> <https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/albums/72177720300301029>
>>
>> I didn't notice that, but at the one place I had time to observe, the
>> x-minutes on the doors was consistently one minute more optimistic than
>> the "secret" display intended for platform staff on the back wall of the
>> platform.
>>
>> Trains being self-evidently not-arrived when the PIS said they were,
>>
>
> Did they arrive very shortly afterwards?
>
> If so, it seems likely that they change to 'arrived' when they enter th
> track circuit in which the platform is situated. In certain locations this
> might obviously be some distance before the platform itself. An obvious fix
> would be to add a fixed delay (location-specific) between the track circuit
> activation and the display changing.
>
>> or
>> the PIS having them in an impossible future arrival order, is something
>> I've seen quite a few times on National Rail stations.
>>
>> I've attributed the impossible-arrival-order to perhaps the PIS at
>> multi-TOC stations being fed separately by the different TOCs.
>>
>
> No, it'll be fed from the same NR database as RTT, Traksy etc.
>
>> And as
>> one train can't overtake another [at such station approaches] and hence
>> destined to arrive one after the other, the various timings therefore
>> contradicting one another because the train-behind was temporarily
>> showing as arriving before the one ahead of it.
>
> I can think of two reasons for this to happen. Most obvious is a converging
> junction just before the station, and the signalling decision hasn't get
> been made.
>
> More common, perhaps, is a situation where a stopping train is running
> late, and being caught up by a faster train. The PIS system just isn't
> intelligent enough to take account of the track layout etc., so it gives
> the faster train it's booked arrival time until it actually catches up with
> the slower train and gets delayed passing one of the timing points.

The departure boards at Swindon railway station can be quite exciting
when all services are delayed. Not only do the arrival times
continuously change but so does the platform.

Re: Liz PED PIS bug

<7BX7mfQNFxwiFA17@perry.uk>

  copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=14085&group=uk.transport.london#14085

  copy link   Newsgroups: uk.railway uk.transport.london
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!news.uzoreto.com!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway,uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: Liz PED PIS bug
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 17:11:57 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <7BX7mfQNFxwiFA17@perry.uk>
References: <03m5chp8csd24tarcv38fcr23d1p1pgssl@4ax.com>
<t9urr6$3d3gl$1@dont-email.me> <RY6hwwM5kvwiFAws@perry.uk>
<t9v2a6$3dpop$1@dont-email.me>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed
X-Trace: individual.net 1sNi2571kbcSZLO9kMNy0ACAcx8AD+cjevr9pUfETCcMRsbnhG
X-Orig-Path: perry.co.uk!roland
Cancel-Lock: sha1:KOmTBn19+EWAyoi8VowJjplBIc0=
User-Agent: Turnpike/6.07-M (<52l5fZdV$jhVf1U93hT62mJV+y>)
 by: Roland Perry - Mon, 4 Jul 2022 16:11 UTC

In message <t9v2a6$3dpop$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:51:35 on Mon, 4 Jul
2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>> Another potential failure, is when I got off at Paddington westbound,
>> which has numerous on-platform and in-train announcements about everyone
>> getting off, a late-arriving couple dashed onto the platform [inevitably
>> wrong one at this stage] and onto the train, then the doors shut.
>
>Mainline and LU practice is that either the train is walked-through to
>prove that it's empty, or the track and signalling to the reversing place
>is to passenger standard.

Is that consistent with the ex-bus-driver lady who was a bit upset (for
the cameras anyway) when seeing from the front of the train one
approaching from the reversing sidings beyond Paddington?

Or do they set off towards the back cab as soon as they've arrived at
Paddington. In which case is no human required in the front cab to
confirm that departure to the reversing sidings is good to go?
--
Roland Perry

Re: Liz PED PIS bug

<t9v44u$jv2$1@gioia.aioe.org>

  copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=14086&group=uk.transport.london#14086

  copy link   Newsgroups: uk.transport.london uk.railway
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!BKzeqmo2UYxb4eR2zKm0zw.user.46.165.242.75.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com
Newsgroups: uk.transport.london,uk.railway
Subject: Re: Liz PED PIS bug
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 16:22:54 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID: <t9v44u$jv2$1@gioia.aioe.org>
References: <03m5chp8csd24tarcv38fcr23d1p1pgssl@4ax.com> <s4ruoIJ$HuwiFAFB@perry.uk>
Injection-Info: gioia.aioe.org; logging-data="20450"; posting-host="BKzeqmo2UYxb4eR2zKm0zw.user.gioia.aioe.org"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@aioe.org";
X-Notice: Filtered by postfilter v. 0.9.2
 by: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com - Mon, 4 Jul 2022 16:22 UTC

On Mon, 4 Jul 2022 13:50:07 +0100
Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <03m5chp8csd24tarcv38fcr23d1p1pgssl@4ax.com>, at 13:14:23 on
>Mon, 4 Jul 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>>We all know that the Elizabeth Line has been plagued with software
>>problems, but I didn't expect, as a passenger, to be
>>able to spot a very visible bugs= more than a month after opening.
>
>>At Whitechapel station last week, I spotted that the displays over the
>>PEDs seem not to know that the last couple of trains had arrived and
>>left, and still showed them as 'Due'. So they showed several trains all
>>due at once, when the trains had actually arrived on time, and left.
>>The trains were running punctually, without problems, but the PED PISs
>>seem to have got stuck in a loop
>>
>><https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/albums/72177720300301029>
>
>I didn't notice that, but at the one place I had time to observe, the
>x-minutes on the doors was consistently one minute more optimistic than
>the "secret" display intended for platform staff on the back wall of the
>platform.
>
>Trains being self-evidently not-arrived when the PIS said they were, or
>the PIS having them in an impossible future arrival order, is something
>I've seen quite a few times on National Rail stations.
>
>I've attributed the impossible-arrival-order to perhaps the PIS at
>multi-TOC stations being fed separately by the different TOCs. And as
>one train can't overtake another [at such station approaches] and hence
>destined to arrive one after the other, the various timings therefore
>contradicting one another because the train-behind was temporarily
>showing as arriving before the one ahead of it.

The sane approach would have them fed direct from the signalling system but
I guess thats too much of an ask. As long as it looks flash who cares if its
particularly accurate I imagine is their thinking.

Re: Liz PED PIS bug

<t9v8j3$3ef7r$4@dont-email.me>

  copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=14087&group=uk.transport.london#14087

  copy link   Newsgroups: uk.railway uk.transport.london
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader01.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: ann...@noyd-dryver.com (Anna Noyd-Dryver)
Newsgroups: uk.railway,uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: Liz PED PIS bug
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 17:38:43 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 84
Message-ID: <t9v8j3$3ef7r$4@dont-email.me>
References: <03m5chp8csd24tarcv38fcr23d1p1pgssl@4ax.com>
<s4ruoIJ$HuwiFAFB@perry.uk>
<t9v1o7$3dnsr$1@dont-email.me>
<t9v3tc$3dudn$1@dont-email.me>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 17:38:43 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader01.eternal-september.org; posting-host="a735df18f315145f768cbd40e300df78";
logging-data="3620091"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1+i0N6LV5rsUEZpD4WwjlJSTArrKvxQm7A="
User-Agent: NewsTap/5.5 (iPhone/iPod Touch)
Cancel-Lock: sha1:3ope4XcxOaDgu6QGP2B0llXXGVo=
sha1:gZsrPJXO9DuHR7LRkM8HoCaOt+k=
 by: Anna Noyd-Dryver - Mon, 4 Jul 2022 17:38 UTC

<martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
> On 04/07/2022 16:41, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <03m5chp8csd24tarcv38fcr23d1p1pgssl@4ax.com>, at 13:14:23 on
>>> Mon, 4 Jul 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>> We all know that the Elizabeth Line has been plagued with software
>>>> problems, but I didn't expect, as a passenger, to be
>>>> able to spot a very visible bugs= more than a month after opening.
>>>
>>>> At Whitechapel station last week, I spotted that the displays over the
>>>> PEDs seem not to know that the last couple of trains had arrived and
>>>> left, and still showed them as 'Due'. So they showed several trains all
>>>> due at once, when the trains had actually arrived on time, and left.
>>>> The trains were running punctually, without problems, but the PED PISs
>>>> seem to have got stuck in a loop
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/albums/72177720300301029>
>>>
>>> I didn't notice that, but at the one place I had time to observe, the
>>> x-minutes on the doors was consistently one minute more optimistic than
>>> the "secret" display intended for platform staff on the back wall of the
>>> platform.
>>>
>>> Trains being self-evidently not-arrived when the PIS said they were,
>>>
>>
>> Did they arrive very shortly afterwards?
>>
>> If so, it seems likely that they change to 'arrived' when they enter th
>> track circuit in which the platform is situated. In certain locations this
>> might obviously be some distance before the platform itself. An obvious fix
>> would be to add a fixed delay (location-specific) between the track circuit
>> activation and the display changing.
>>
>>> or
>>> the PIS having them in an impossible future arrival order, is something
>>> I've seen quite a few times on National Rail stations.
>>>
>>> I've attributed the impossible-arrival-order to perhaps the PIS at
>>> multi-TOC stations being fed separately by the different TOCs.
>>>
>>
>> No, it'll be fed from the same NR database as RTT, Traksy etc.
>>
>>> And as
>>> one train can't overtake another [at such station approaches] and hence
>>> destined to arrive one after the other, the various timings therefore
>>> contradicting one another because the train-behind was temporarily
>>> showing as arriving before the one ahead of it.
>>
>> I can think of two reasons for this to happen. Most obvious is a converging
>> junction just before the station, and the signalling decision hasn't get
>> been made.
>>
>> More common, perhaps, is a situation where a stopping train is running
>> late, and being caught up by a faster train. The PIS system just isn't
>> intelligent enough to take account of the track layout etc., so it gives
>> the faster train it's booked arrival time until it actually catches up with
>> the slower train and gets delayed passing one of the timing points.
>
> The departure boards at Swindon railway station can be quite exciting
> when all services are delayed. Not only do the arrival times
> continuously change but so does the platform.
>

Is that from recent (post-TVSC) experience, or pre-resignalling?

IMX Swindon Panel (two signallers in a 1960s building behind platform 4,
using 1960s tech) used to be very adept at platform swaps between 1 and 3
(ie opposite sides of the island platform, so minimal impact on passengers)
to keep trains flowing as freely as possible.

Since transfer to TVSC (one signaller now responsible for the same area,
using a computer screen in a building at the far end of Didcot Parkway car
park), much more reliance is placed on ARS (Automatic Route Setting)
(because the one signaller now controls a larger area), which tends to
result in trains running through their booked platform no matter what -
even if that means other trains held outside the station while there's an
empty platform they could be using.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Re: Liz PED PIS bug

<t9v8j4$3ef7r$5@dont-email.me>

  copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=14088&group=uk.transport.london#14088

  copy link   Newsgroups: uk.railway uk.transport.london
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader01.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: ann...@noyd-dryver.com (Anna Noyd-Dryver)
Newsgroups: uk.railway,uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: Liz PED PIS bug
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 17:38:44 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 50
Message-ID: <t9v8j4$3ef7r$5@dont-email.me>
References: <03m5chp8csd24tarcv38fcr23d1p1pgssl@4ax.com>
<s4ruoIJ$HuwiFAFB@perry.uk>
<t9v44u$jv2$1@gioia.aioe.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 17:38:44 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader01.eternal-september.org; posting-host="a735df18f315145f768cbd40e300df78";
logging-data="3620091"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX19KfeOlbEgA12g9FyiSTh5nS5exuoHwnD8="
User-Agent: NewsTap/5.5 (iPhone/iPod Touch)
Cancel-Lock: sha1:krQBLlDU8Ix9vDaQM037hfPh1q4=
sha1:/SOmKtttIVoX32OL31Qd+Cr3ECw=
 by: Anna Noyd-Dryver - Mon, 4 Jul 2022 17:38 UTC

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 4 Jul 2022 13:50:07 +0100
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <03m5chp8csd24tarcv38fcr23d1p1pgssl@4ax.com>, at 13:14:23 on
>> Mon, 4 Jul 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>> We all know that the Elizabeth Line has been plagued with software
>>> problems, but I didn't expect, as a passenger, to be
>>> able to spot a very visible bugs= more than a month after opening.
>>
>>> At Whitechapel station last week, I spotted that the displays over the
>>> PEDs seem not to know that the last couple of trains had arrived and
>>> left, and still showed them as 'Due'. So they showed several trains all
>>> due at once, when the trains had actually arrived on time, and left.
>>> The trains were running punctually, without problems, but the PED PISs
>>> seem to have got stuck in a loop
>>>
>>> <https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/albums/72177720300301029>
>>
>> I didn't notice that, but at the one place I had time to observe, the
>> x-minutes on the doors was consistently one minute more optimistic than
>> the "secret" display intended for platform staff on the back wall of the
>> platform.
>>
>> Trains being self-evidently not-arrived when the PIS said they were, or
>> the PIS having them in an impossible future arrival order, is something
>> I've seen quite a few times on National Rail stations.
>>
>> I've attributed the impossible-arrival-order to perhaps the PIS at
>> multi-TOC stations being fed separately by the different TOCs. And as
>> one train can't overtake another [at such station approaches] and hence
>> destined to arrive one after the other, the various timings therefore
>> contradicting one another because the train-behind was temporarily
>> showing as arriving before the one ahead of it.
>
> The sane approach would have them fed direct from the signalling system but
> I guess thats too much of an ask. As long as it looks flash who cares if its
> particularly accurate I imagine is their thinking.
>
>

It is fed from the signalling system (well, from the train running data
which is updated from the signalling system), and it doesn't look 'flash'.
It's just not clever enough to understand the track layout, so a faster
train will still show on time until it actually gets delayed at a timing
point, by the slower train which it can't overtake.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Re: Liz PED PIS bug

<t9vbsa$3eqc3$1@dont-email.me>

  copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=14089&group=uk.transport.london#14089

  copy link   Newsgroups: uk.railway uk.transport.london
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader01.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: martin.c...@round-midnight.org.uk
Newsgroups: uk.railway,uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: Liz PED PIS bug
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 19:34:49 +0100
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 93
Message-ID: <t9vbsa$3eqc3$1@dont-email.me>
References: <03m5chp8csd24tarcv38fcr23d1p1pgssl@4ax.com>
<s4ruoIJ$HuwiFAFB@perry.uk> <t9v1o7$3dnsr$1@dont-email.me>
<t9v3tc$3dudn$1@dont-email.me> <t9v8j3$3ef7r$4@dont-email.me>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 18:34:50 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader01.eternal-september.org; posting-host="238affbe1dcc63af373d12db00805008";
logging-data="3631491"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1+vSzm+ddyLII3vE2iA7uEr/CTvgDe2GOE="
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/91.9.1
Cancel-Lock: sha1:jlBwDcMKJ4zd/owni+CV6IgxBIY=
In-Reply-To: <t9v8j3$3ef7r$4@dont-email.me>
Content-Language: en-GB
 by: martin.c...@round-midnight.org.uk - Mon, 4 Jul 2022 18:34 UTC

On 04/07/2022 18:38, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>> On 04/07/2022 16:41, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <03m5chp8csd24tarcv38fcr23d1p1pgssl@4ax.com>, at 13:14:23 on
>>>> Mon, 4 Jul 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>> We all know that the Elizabeth Line has been plagued with software
>>>>> problems, but I didn't expect, as a passenger, to be
>>>>> able to spot a very visible bugs= more than a month after opening.
>>>>
>>>>> At Whitechapel station last week, I spotted that the displays over the
>>>>> PEDs seem not to know that the last couple of trains had arrived and
>>>>> left, and still showed them as 'Due'. So they showed several trains all
>>>>> due at once, when the trains had actually arrived on time, and left.
>>>>> The trains were running punctually, without problems, but the PED PISs
>>>>> seem to have got stuck in a loop
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/albums/72177720300301029>
>>>>
>>>> I didn't notice that, but at the one place I had time to observe, the
>>>> x-minutes on the doors was consistently one minute more optimistic than
>>>> the "secret" display intended for platform staff on the back wall of the
>>>> platform.
>>>>
>>>> Trains being self-evidently not-arrived when the PIS said they were,
>>>>
>>>
>>> Did they arrive very shortly afterwards?
>>>
>>> If so, it seems likely that they change to 'arrived' when they enter th
>>> track circuit in which the platform is situated. In certain locations this
>>> might obviously be some distance before the platform itself. An obvious fix
>>> would be to add a fixed delay (location-specific) between the track circuit
>>> activation and the display changing.
>>>
>>>> or
>>>> the PIS having them in an impossible future arrival order, is something
>>>> I've seen quite a few times on National Rail stations.
>>>>
>>>> I've attributed the impossible-arrival-order to perhaps the PIS at
>>>> multi-TOC stations being fed separately by the different TOCs.
>>>>
>>>
>>> No, it'll be fed from the same NR database as RTT, Traksy etc.
>>>
>>>> And as
>>>> one train can't overtake another [at such station approaches] and hence
>>>> destined to arrive one after the other, the various timings therefore
>>>> contradicting one another because the train-behind was temporarily
>>>> showing as arriving before the one ahead of it.
>>>
>>> I can think of two reasons for this to happen. Most obvious is a converging
>>> junction just before the station, and the signalling decision hasn't get
>>> been made.
>>>
>>> More common, perhaps, is a situation where a stopping train is running
>>> late, and being caught up by a faster train. The PIS system just isn't
>>> intelligent enough to take account of the track layout etc., so it gives
>>> the faster train it's booked arrival time until it actually catches up with
>>> the slower train and gets delayed passing one of the timing points.
>>
>> The departure boards at Swindon railway station can be quite exciting
>> when all services are delayed. Not only do the arrival times
>> continuously change but so does the platform.
>>
>
> Is that from recent (post-TVSC) experience, or pre-resignalling?

It was during one of the electrification closures when the Cardiff /
Portsmouth services were diverted to Swindon which was very satisfactory
as the Paddington / Paddington services were diverted via Gloucester.

I cannot remember the date.

>
> IMX Swindon Panel (two signallers in a 1960s building behind platform 4,
> using 1960s tech) used to be very adept at platform swaps between 1 and 3
> (ie opposite sides of the island platform, so minimal impact on passengers)
> to keep trains flowing as freely as possible.
>
> Since transfer to TVSC (one signaller now responsible for the same area,
> using a computer screen in a building at the far end of Didcot Parkway car
> park), much more reliance is placed on ARS (Automatic Route Setting)
> (because the one signaller now controls a larger area), which tends to
> result in trains running through their booked platform no matter what -
> even if that means other trains held outside the station while there's an
> empty platform they could be using.
>
>
> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>

Re: Liz PED PIS bug

<t9vd8r$3euor$1@dont-email.me>

  copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=14090&group=uk.transport.london#14090

  copy link   Newsgroups: uk.railway uk.transport.london
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader01.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: ann...@noyd-dryver.com (Anna Noyd-Dryver)
Newsgroups: uk.railway,uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: Liz PED PIS bug
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 18:58:35 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 81
Message-ID: <t9vd8r$3euor$1@dont-email.me>
References: <03m5chp8csd24tarcv38fcr23d1p1pgssl@4ax.com>
<t9urr6$3d3gl$1@dont-email.me>
<RY6hwwM5kvwiFAws@perry.uk>
<t9v2a6$3dpop$1@dont-email.me>
<5R$7iFQsBxwiFA1Q@perry.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 18:58:35 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader01.eternal-september.org; posting-host="4d755f785c8a42349d05482b1750e891";
logging-data="3635995"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX19UymbgEQ2gpiikdqkxfwFtz1794WdGLQc="
User-Agent: NewsTap/5.5 (iPhone/iPod Touch)
Cancel-Lock: sha1:3E6fX2HK6ReG6mkEcXIOJSvNvrM=
sha1:+im76sHejdOTk5JmYSDwIKfH9vE=
 by: Anna Noyd-Dryver - Mon, 4 Jul 2022 18:58 UTC

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t9v2a6$3dpop$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:51:35 on Mon, 4 Jul
> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t9urr6$3d3gl$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:01:09 on Mon, 4 Jul
>>> 2022, Certes <none@nowhere.net> remarked:
>>>> On 04/07/2022 13:14, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> We all know that the Elizabeth Line has been plagued with software
>>>>> problems, but I didn't expect, as a passenger, to be
>>>>> able to spot a very visible bugs= more than a month after opening.
>>>>> At Whitechapel station last week, I spotted that the displays over
>>>>> the PEDs seem not to know that the last couple of
>>>>> trains had arrived and left, and still showed them as 'Due'. So they
>>>>> showed several trains all due at once, when the
>>>>> trains had actually arrived on time, and left. The trains were
>>>>> running punctually, without problems, but the PED PISs
>>>>> seem to have got stuck in a loop
>>>
>>>>> <https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/albums/72177720300301029>
>>>>>
>>>> It sounds as if a bit of kit that should detect when a train reaches
>>>> that platform, and is thus no longer Due, doesn't.
>>>
>>> Wouldn't that be the mission critical bit of kit which says "Ok, train
>>> has reached the platform, it's now OK to open the PEDs"?
>>>
>>> Speaking of which, something I don't think I've seen mentioned before is
>>> that with the trains shorter than [all/most?] platforms at the moment,
>>
>> "At the moment" meaning "for the foreseeable future", presumably, as I'm
>> not aware of any expectation having been set for extending class 345 beyond
>> 9 cars? (As opposed to 'making allowance for this to happen when required
>> in the future').
>>
>>> do they stop in the middle, or at one end.
>>
>> From observation, it's at the end; the arriving train draws right to the
>> far end of the platform.
>
> I'd need to do another field trip to confirm that. In particular
> eastbound trains at Farringdon where they clearly expect most pax to
> exit towards the rear.
>

From examination, I'm going to tentatively change my answer to 'middle'. At
the Liverpool Street end of Liverpool Street station, there's a length of
platform with no doors (you have to turn back from the entrance from the
escalators to get to it, but I think the lift brings you down right at the
end). Examination of the Eastbound platform revealed a similar length of
no-doors. Looking out from the departing train, I judge there to be a
similar length at the other end.

At Farringdon there's a similar length at the Barbican end, though it was
difficult to judge from a moving train whether the length at the Farringdon
end was a similar size.

>>> And if at one end, who chooses which end,

The designers of the station, prior to installation of signalling and PEDs.

>>> and do the relevant PIS
>>> over the never-going-to-open PEDs tell passengers to wait elsewhere?
>>
>> I'm not sure OTTOMH (and can't check for a couple of hours) that there are
>> even PEDs fitted in the platform screen there; OTOH having seen someone who
>> wasn't paying attention waiting there and having to trot down to the rear
>> of the train when it arrived, maybe there are.
>>

As expected, it's a glass screen with no doors or recesses for future doors
[1], and thus no indication above the not-doors to say that they are not
doors.

<https://twitter.com/annanoyddryver/status/1544031609774538753>

[1] though the sizes of the glass panels appear to match the door size and
spacing of another carriage.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Re: Liz PED PIS bug

<ta0u6t$t25$1@gioia.aioe.org>

  copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=14091&group=uk.transport.london#14091

  copy link   Newsgroups: uk.railway uk.transport.london
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!BKzeqmo2UYxb4eR2zKm0zw.user.46.165.242.75.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com
Newsgroups: uk.railway,uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: Liz PED PIS bug
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2022 08:53:49 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID: <ta0u6t$t25$1@gioia.aioe.org>
References: <03m5chp8csd24tarcv38fcr23d1p1pgssl@4ax.com>
<s4ruoIJ$HuwiFAFB@perry.uk>
<t9v44u$jv2$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<t9v8j4$3ef7r$5@dont-email.me>
Injection-Info: gioia.aioe.org; logging-data="29765"; posting-host="BKzeqmo2UYxb4eR2zKm0zw.user.gioia.aioe.org"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@aioe.org";
X-Notice: Filtered by postfilter v. 0.9.2
 by: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com - Tue, 5 Jul 2022 08:53 UTC

On Mon, 4 Jul 2022 17:38:44 -0000 (UTC)
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> The sane approach would have them fed direct from the signalling system but
>> I guess thats too much of an ask. As long as it looks flash who cares if its
>> particularly accurate I imagine is their thinking.
>>
>>
>
>It is fed from the signalling system (well, from the train running data
>which is updated from the signalling system),

Bit worrying in that case that it can't even get train orders correct.

>and it doesn't look 'flash'.

It is flash. You don't need a full colour display with a partial line
diagram and "Boarding" messages (no! really? Is that why the doors are open?)
and lots of scrolling waffle just to indicate the next train. A cheapo dot
matrix as use elsewhere would do just as well and save a lot of cash.

>It's just not clever enough to understand the track layout, so a faster
>train will still show on time until it actually gets delayed at a timing
>point, by the slower train which it can't overtake.

That's no excuse. It should know the train order and its trivial to code
in the fact that trains can't overtake each other (on this line anyway) and
adjust arrival times accordingly.

Re: Liz PED PIS bug

<jiig1gFajm8U1@mid.individual.net>

  copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=14092&group=uk.transport.london#14092

  copy link   Newsgroups: uk.transport.london uk.railway
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!news.szaf.org!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
From: use...@page2.eu (Clive Page)
Newsgroups: uk.transport.london,uk.railway
Subject: Re: Liz PED PIS bug
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2022 10:53:51 +0100
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <jiig1gFajm8U1@mid.individual.net>
References: <03m5chp8csd24tarcv38fcr23d1p1pgssl@4ax.com>
<s4ruoIJ$HuwiFAFB@perry.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Trace: individual.net 8UjhP3LsoEhpG64zgAUhWQ1ZeROgi0xYGdvY9uhmIHuNmaz/To
Cancel-Lock: sha1:bC1+5zX1bhLfzQ6cvltNVUzZh2o=
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/91.11.0
Content-Language: en-GB
In-Reply-To: <s4ruoIJ$HuwiFAFB@perry.uk>
 by: Clive Page - Tue, 5 Jul 2022 09:53 UTC

On 04/07/2022 13:50, Roland Perry wrote:
> I've attributed the impossible-arrival-order to perhaps the PIS at multi-TOC stations being fed separately by the different TOCs. And as one train can't overtake another [at such station approaches] and hence destined to arrive one after the other, the various timings therefore contradicting one another because the train-behind was temporarily showing as arriving before the one ahead of it.

I've seen it several times when waiting on the northbound platform at Blackfriars. When trains are due from London Bridge and from Elephant & Castle and one is a few minutes late, sometimes the same arrival time is shown on the synoptic display, and on the platform the order of 1st and 2nd trains sometimes switches a couple of timed before the situation resolves when one of them actually turns up.

But this is not because more than one TOC is involved, these are all Thameslink services.

I simply think it is lazy programming - the programmer concerned didn't realise that showing two trains due at the same platform at the same time is pretty stupid. And also having the order switch a few times is also not helpful to passengers: I don't think the points at the junction actually switch first one way and then the other, it seems more likely that the information internally has predicted arrivals given to the second, and these are continually fluctuating.

The signalling system surely knows which way the junction just south of Blackfriars is going to be set and should be able to inform the passenger information system accordingly.

--
Clive Page

Re: Liz PED PIS bug

<ta15j4$3mj16$1@dont-email.me>

  copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=14093&group=uk.transport.london#14093

  copy link   Newsgroups: uk.railway uk.transport.london
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader01.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: ann...@noyd-dryver.com (Anna Noyd-Dryver)
Newsgroups: uk.railway,uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: Liz PED PIS bug
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2022 10:59:48 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <ta15j4$3mj16$1@dont-email.me>
References: <03m5chp8csd24tarcv38fcr23d1p1pgssl@4ax.com>
<s4ruoIJ$HuwiFAFB@perry.uk>
<jiig1gFajm8U1@mid.individual.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2022 10:59:48 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader01.eternal-september.org; posting-host="b58739fd667ea7d5061db7703baec0ab";
logging-data="3886118"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX18X/q3tU2gfpUKK2QBuNVct92nFICNlUlc="
User-Agent: NewsTap/5.5 (iPhone/iPod Touch)
Cancel-Lock: sha1:4wJ8g+1brEmhv9osRsFFo/qF57o=
sha1:uXh9sViVQ5Bo0Gh6Xxr6CCtGQf8=
 by: Anna Noyd-Dryver - Tue, 5 Jul 2022 10:59 UTC

Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
> On 04/07/2022 13:50, Roland Perry wrote:
>> I've attributed the impossible-arrival-order to perhaps the PIS at
>> multi-TOC stations being fed separately by the different TOCs. And as
>> one train can't overtake another [at such station approaches] and hence
>> destined to arrive one after the other, the various timings therefore
>> contradicting one another because the train-behind was temporarily
>> showing as arriving before the one ahead of it.
>
> I've seen it several times when waiting on the northbound platform at
> Blackfriars. When trains are due from London Bridge and from Elephant &
> Castle and one is a few minutes late, sometimes the same arrival time is
> shown on the synoptic display, and on the platform the order of 1st and
> 2nd trains sometimes switches a couple of timed before the situation
> resolves when one of them actually turns up.
>
> But this is not because more than one TOC is involved, these are all Thameslink services.
>
> I simply think it is lazy programming - the programmer concerned didn't
> realise that showing two trains due at the same platform at the same time
> is pretty stupid. And also having the order switch a few times is also
> not helpful to passengers: I don't think the points at the junction
> actually switch first one way and then the other, it seems more likely
> that the information internally has predicted arrivals given to the
> second, and these are continually fluctuating.
>
> The signalling system surely knows which way the junction just south of
> Blackfriars is going to be set and should be able to inform the passenger
> information system accordingly.
>

If it's a converging junction, until the route is actually set across the
junction, either train could be arriving first.

I do agree that the system should only change once, though, and that be
when the route is actually set.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Re: Liz PED PIS bug

<ovo8chps57mmpg8c8ak84ivs9r9195grvp@4ax.com>

  copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=14094&group=uk.transport.london#14094

  copy link   Newsgroups: uk.transport.london uk.railway
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!lilly.ping.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
From: charlese...@btinternet.com (Charles Ellson)
Newsgroups: uk.transport.london,uk.railway
Subject: Re: Liz PED PIS bug
Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2022 17:27:29 +0100
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <ovo8chps57mmpg8c8ak84ivs9r9195grvp@4ax.com>
References: <03m5chp8csd24tarcv38fcr23d1p1pgssl@4ax.com> <s4ruoIJ$HuwiFAFB@perry.uk> <jiig1gFajm8U1@mid.individual.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Trace: individual.net at6iofm2I8N+Q7au5+gHwQhlyPRzJfO1Pl3khSmElbI2n1Xwvs
Cancel-Lock: sha1:RZkZ3opWnOPpT/dKSOjjChC5OlQ=
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 6.00/32.1186
X-Antivirus: AVG (VPS 220705-2, 5/7/2022), Outbound message
X-Antivirus-Status: Clean
 by: Charles Ellson - Tue, 5 Jul 2022 16:27 UTC

On Tue, 5 Jul 2022 10:53:51 +0100, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:

>On 04/07/2022 13:50, Roland Perry wrote:
>> I've attributed the impossible-arrival-order to perhaps the PIS at multi-TOC stations being fed separately by the different TOCs. And as one train can't overtake another [at such station approaches] and hence destined to arrive one after the other, the various timings therefore contradicting one another because the train-behind was temporarily showing as arriving before the one ahead of it.
>
>I've seen it several times when waiting on the northbound platform at Blackfriars. When trains are due from London Bridge and from Elephant & Castle and one is a few minutes late, sometimes the same arrival time is shown on the synoptic display, and on the platform the order of 1st and 2nd trains sometimes switches a couple of timed before the situation resolves when one of them actually turns up.
>
I've seen later trains shown arriving first at Clapham Junction with
London-bound SW trains. IIRC the sequence seems to go -
1.Trains arriving in sensible order matching times.
2.Times change with trains now in illogical order.
3.Order changes.

The difference elsewhere (e.g. Up trains at Harrow) is that No.2 does
not occur so the Clapham version seems to be "thinking out loud" while
shuffling the information.
<snip>


aus+uk / uk.transport.london / Re: Liz PED PIS bug

1
server_pubkey.txt

rocksolid light 0.9.81
clearnet tor