Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Phone line rental and POTS voice was with Zen. FTTC with A&A. Phone line
> converted to wires only and billed by A&A, phone number ported to A&A VOIP.
> A&A FTTC service survived the ordeal unscathed.

SFAIK A&A's ability to extract the number out of an operating PSTN line
depends on them providing both the phone line and the broadband. You can't
do it if somebody else runs the broadband.

Theo

On 24/08/2023 14:12, Theo wrote:
> Peter <nospam@nospam9876.com> wrote:
>>> Experience with SNOM 300 and the Gigaset N510 IP PRO confirms that no
>>> port opening is required. So I don't know why Voipfone suggest it.
>> Unless you a keep-aline for the NAT tunnel, you cannot receive
>> incoming calls.
> I think SIP clients typically do use a keepalive on their connection, for
> this reason.
>
> I'm considering a move to VF, anyone know if third party VOIP (A&A) works
> out of the box on their router?
I would have thought so. VF are just a bargain basement ISP aimed at the
mass market, their router will have its doors 'wide open' to keep any
pesky support calls from gamers, or streamers at bay (due to possible
closed ports)

On 24/08/2023 14:15, Theo wrote:
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Phone line rental and POTS voice was with Zen. FTTC with A&A. Phone line
>> converted to wires only and billed by A&A, phone number ported to A&A VOIP.
>> A&A FTTC service survived the ordeal unscathed.
> SFAIK A&A's ability to extract the number out of an operating PSTN line
> depends on them providing both the phone line and the broadband. You can't
> do it if somebody else runs the broadband.
>
That's right. I think it's based upon Openreach's 'Re-number and
Re-provide' scheme, of which A&A are the only ISP to have taken it up,
(owing to their reassuringly expensiveness)

Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

>I think SIP clients typically do use a keepalive on their connection, for
>this reason.

IME this sometimes exists and sometimes it has to be set up. The Snom
phones have a STUN (?) server config. Years ago I got an old Nokia 808
phone working on VOIP (on WIFI), incoming too. Nokia specialised in
corporate products for that... My current Snom phones do not use this,
AFAICT, hence I had to do the port fwd in NAT for them. Maybe they can
but A&A sure didn't mention that, and they would have done because it
makes life so much easier.

>I'm considering a move to VF, anyone know if third party VOIP (A&A) works
>out of the box on their router? I've never had an ISP where it didn't work
>(worst case with some router tweaking), but just curious if anyone can
>confirm.

I will be running a Voipfone 801 box on a Draytek 2955 on Voda ADSL
pretty soon...

>> >In the global scheme of things using your own router for its VPN
>> >capability is VERY UNUSUAL.
>>
>> One could debate that... :) What about at one's office?
>
>They are typically not using a consumer FTTP service, which is what we're
>talking about here. You can of course have a business service and connect
>your on-prem Cisco router to the end of it, but that's a different ballgame.

Isn't it just pricing? "Business" is 40 quid a month and upwards.

I work from home. Is that "consumer" or "business"? The Voda product
is called "business broadband".

VF has been excellent, on both phones (GSM and landline) and ADSL.
Zero downtime over maybe 10 years. Muppet call centres but they have
always had good people running the systems.

25 quid a month for 75mbps, minus 50% for 1st year, is hard to argue
with.

I've just looked at A&A pricing and it is much more than VF, for half
the speed, and with total data caps (admittedly at a high level like
1TB).

Mark Carver <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 24/08/2023 14:15, Theo wrote:
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Phone line rental and POTS voice was with Zen. FTTC with A&A. Phone line
>>> converted to wires only and billed by A&A, phone number ported to A&A VOIP.
>>> A&A FTTC service survived the ordeal unscathed.
>> SFAIK A&A's ability to extract the number out of an operating PSTN line
>> depends on them providing both the phone line and the broadband. You can't
>> do it if somebody else runs the broadband.
>>
> That's right. I think it's based upon Openreach's 'Re-number and
> Re-provide' scheme, of which A&A are the only ISP to have taken it up,
> (owing to their reassuringly expensiveness)
>
>

Point is, A&A did not provide the phone line or phone number prior to the
the change, only the broadband,

On 24/08/2023 14:41, Tweed wrote:
> Mark Carver <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On 24/08/2023 14:15, Theo wrote:
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Phone line rental and POTS voice was with Zen. FTTC with A&A. Phone line
>>>> converted to wires only and billed by A&A, phone number ported to A&A VOIP.
>>>> A&A FTTC service survived the ordeal unscathed.
>>> SFAIK A&A's ability to extract the number out of an operating PSTN line
>>> depends on them providing both the phone line and the broadband. You can't
>>> do it if somebody else runs the broadband.
>>>
>> That's right. I think it's based upon Openreach's 'Re-number and
>> Re-provide' scheme, of which A&A are the only ISP to have taken it up,
>> (owing to their reassuringly expensiveness)
>>
>>
> Point is, A&A did not provide the phone line or phone number prior to the
> the change, only the broadband,
>
No, but you still had to get the POTs service into A&A's 'ownership'
before they could initiate the port to VoIP.

I'm not criticising it at all, but it's a niche service, from a niche
ISP,  that would only ever be utilised by 'people like us'.

Mark Carver <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 24/08/2023 14:41, Tweed wrote:
>> Mark Carver <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 24/08/2023 14:15, Theo wrote:
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Phone line rental and POTS voice was with Zen. FTTC with A&A. Phone line
>>>>> converted to wires only and billed by A&A, phone number ported to A&A VOIP.
>>>>> A&A FTTC service survived the ordeal unscathed.
>>>> SFAIK A&A's ability to extract the number out of an operating PSTN line
>>>> depends on them providing both the phone line and the broadband. You can't
>>>> do it if somebody else runs the broadband.
>>>>
>>> That's right. I think it's based upon Openreach's 'Re-number and
>>> Re-provide' scheme, of which A&A are the only ISP to have taken it up,
>>> (owing to their reassuringly expensiveness)
>>>
>>>
>> Point is, A&A did not provide the phone line or phone number prior to the
>> the change, only the broadband,
>>
> No, but you still had to get the POTs service into A&A's 'ownership'
> before they could initiate the port to VoIP.
>
> I'm not criticising it at all, but it's a niche service, from a niche
> ISP,  that would only ever be utilised by 'people like us'.
>

Must have happened in milliseconds. From my perspective the pots service
was ported directly from Zen to A&A VOIP. The physical line went to being
billed by A&A at the same time.

Virgin Media are now attempting to be reassuringly expensive with their
price rises. (Different location to the A&A service) Unfortunately they
aren’t that reassuring and I’ll be jumping ship as soon as CityFibre can
put some fibre in the purple pipes they are laying.

On 24/08/2023 08:17, Jeff Gaines wrote:
> On 24/08/2023 in message <uc6sb3$3bu8v$1@dont-email.me> Peter wrote:
>
>> What stops me porting my number now to some VOIP service and running
>> it on my current ADSL?
>
> I'd be interested to know if that is practical. Fibre is being laid in my
> village at the moment and will go live over the next few months but that
> is Internet only. I looked at Andrews & Arnold for VOIP and they do it but
> there is a monthly fee plus per call fees and it looks as if it would be
> expensive.
>

Eh?

£15.00 one off to port a landline number in. Then £1.44 per month 'line
rental'. You don't have to have A&A broadband or any other service from
them for this. If that's not cheap I don't know what is.

Yes, their outgoing call rates are higher than many but you are under no
obligation to use them. Just use another supplier eg a Betamax offering
for outgoing calls while incoming are via A&A.

Malcolm

Peter <nospam@nospam9876.com> wrote:
>

> VF has been excellent, on both phones (GSM and landline) and ADSL.

A friend of mine runs a courier business. Relies very heavily on mobile
phone use.

She contacted VF about her *daughter’s* contract (which my friend also paid
for) which she wanted to cancel and was absolutely explicit about which
account she wanted to keep active.

VF cancelled the wrong one and were completely unable to “resurrect” the
cancelled number. Caused a *huge* amount of aggro.

Oddly enough she’s no longer with VF.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

Malcolm Loades <devnull@loades.net> wrote:
> On 24/08/2023 08:17, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>> On 24/08/2023 in message <uc6sb3$3bu8v$1@dont-email.me> Peter wrote:
>>
>>> What stops me porting my number now to some VOIP service and running
>>> it on my current ADSL?
>>
>> I'd be interested to know if that is practical. Fibre is being laid in my
>> village at the moment and will go live over the next few months but that
>> is Internet only. I looked at Andrews & Arnold for VOIP and they do it but
>> there is a monthly fee plus per call fees and it looks as if it would be
>> expensive.
>>
>
> Eh?
>
> £15.00 one off to port a landline number in. Then £1.44 per month 'line
> rental'. You don't have to have A&A broadband or any other service from
> them for this. If that's not cheap I don't know what is.
>
> Yes, their outgoing call rates are higher than many but you are under no
> obligation to use them. Just use another supplier eg a Betamax offering
> for outgoing calls while incoming are via A&A.
>
> Malcolm
>

1.5p/min to landlines 4p/min to mobiles, no call setup charges, inc VAT.

Tim+ <tim.downie@gmail.com> wrote:
> Peter <nospam@nospam9876.com> wrote:
>>
>
>> VF has been excellent, on both phones (GSM and landline) and ADSL.
>
> A friend of mine runs a courier business. Relies very heavily on mobile
> phone use.
>
> She contacted VF about her *daughter’s* contract (which my friend also paid
> for) which she wanted to cancel and was absolutely explicit about which
> account she wanted to keep active.
>
> VF cancelled the wrong one and were completely unable to “resurrect” the
> cancelled number. Caused a *huge* amount of aggro.
>
> Oddly enough she’s no longer with VF.
>
> Tim
>

But that’s a problem with any large organisation. Huge number of customer
facing employees, some good some hopeless. I still haven’t got my late
mother out of the BT phone directory, three years after her death and after
numerous interactions with their bereavement line.

On 24/08/2023 in message <kkp74cFd633U1@mid.individual.net> Malcolm Loades
wrote:

>On 24/08/2023 08:17, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>>On 24/08/2023 in message <uc6sb3$3bu8v$1@dont-email.me> Peter wrote:
>>
>>>What stops me porting my number now to some VOIP service and running
>>>it on my current ADSL?
>>
>>I'd be interested to know if that is practical. Fibre is being laid in my
>>village at the moment and will go live over the next few months but that
>>is Internet only. I looked at Andrews & Arnold for VOIP and they do it but
>>there is a monthly fee plus per call fees and it looks as if it would be
>>expensive.
>>
>
>Eh?
>
>£15.00 one off to port a landline number in. Then £1.44 per month 'line
>rental'. You don't have to have A&A broadband or any other service from
>them for this. If that's not cheap I don't know what is.
>
>Yes, their outgoing call rates are higher than many but you are under no
>obligation to use them. Just use another supplier eg a Betamax offering
>for outgoing calls while incoming are via A&A.
>
>Malcolm

1.5p/min to landlines 4p/min to mobiles and 3.6p per text is expensive
compared to my current landline deal or mobile deal.

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
If Björn & Benny had been called Syd and Dave then ABBA would have been
called ASDA.

Theo wrote:
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Phone line rental and POTS voice was with Zen. FTTC with A&A. Phone line
>> converted to wires only and billed by A&A, phone number ported to A&A VOIP.
>> A&A FTTC service survived the ordeal unscathed.
>
> SFAIK A&A's ability to extract the number out of an operating PSTN line
> depends on them providing both the phone line and the broadband. You can't
> do it if somebody else runs the broadband.

Any ISP providing both phone and broadband can convert the broadband to
SOGEA.

See:

<https://www.btwholesale.com/news-and-resources/campaigns/previous/sogea.html>

--
Graham J

Graham J <nobody@nowhere.co.uk> wrote:
> Theo wrote:
> > Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Phone line rental and POTS voice was with Zen. FTTC with A&A. Phone line
> >> converted to wires only and billed by A&A, phone number ported to A&A VOIP.
> >> A&A FTTC service survived the ordeal unscathed.
> >
> > SFAIK A&A's ability to extract the number out of an operating PSTN line
> > depends on them providing both the phone line and the broadband. You can't
> > do it if somebody else runs the broadband.
>
> Any ISP providing both phone and broadband can convert the broadband to
> SOGEA.

The common situation is the phone and broadband is run by $cheapo_ISP and
you want to port the number to A&A VOIP. You can't do that without also
porting the broadband to A&A as well (very not cheap).

If you're on SOGEA, can you now port out the number without ceasing the
broadband?

Theo

On 23 Aug 2023 18:23, Peter wrote:
>
> Graham J <nobody@nowhere.co.uk> wrote
>
>>Use Zen Internet. Order FTTP at £35 per month. Comes with static
IP.
>>You will get an ONT with an RJ45 connector, installed by Openreach or
>>their subcontractor - so no analog phone capability. But you can use
>>your own router.
>
> I would rather die than to do that.
>
> I don't want VOIP. I have a 3-8 PBX at home which just works and keeps
> working.
>
> One Q is whether anybody knows whether the BT guy will be able to give
> me the login creds for the router PPPOE interface. They *should* be
> the same as the existing Voda service over copper. Voda are doing this
> as an UPGRADE now NEW, to preserve the landline number. Keeping the
> existing router is key, for VPNs etc.

But BT aren't providing you with a router. They aren't really even
providing you with FTTP. Openreach are providing a PON connection
which Vodafone are using to provide you with a service.

Theo wrote:
> Graham J <nobody@nowhere.co.uk> wrote:
>> Theo wrote:
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Phone line rental and POTS voice was with Zen. FTTC with A&A. Phone line
>>>> converted to wires only and billed by A&A, phone number ported to A&A VOIP.
>>>> A&A FTTC service survived the ordeal unscathed.
>>>
>>> SFAIK A&A's ability to extract the number out of an operating PSTN line
>>> depends on them providing both the phone line and the broadband. You can't
>>> do it if somebody else runs the broadband.
>>
>> Any ISP providing both phone and broadband can convert the broadband to
>> SOGEA.
>
> The common situation is the phone and broadband is run by $cheapo_ISP and
> you want to port the number to A&A VOIP. You can't do that without also
> porting the broadband to A&A as well (very not cheap).
>
> If you're on SOGEA, can you now port out the number without ceasing the
> broadband?

SOGEA is a broadband-only service carried over a copper pair. It's not
associated with any sort of telephone number.

Until recently conversion to SOGEA would have irretrievably cancelled
the telephone number. But since about Easter this year it has been
possible to port-in a cancelled number to another provider, such as
Voipfone.

Whether $cheapo_ISP will allow the conversion to SOGEA I've no idea.

--
Graham J

On 24/08/2023 16:52, Jeff Gaines wrote:
> On 24/08/2023 in message <kkp74cFd633U1@mid.individual.net> Malcolm Loades
> wrote:
>
>> On 24/08/2023 08:17, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>>> On 24/08/2023 in message <uc6sb3$3bu8v$1@dont-email.me> Peter wrote:
>>>
>>>> What stops me porting my number now to some VOIP service and running
>>>> it on my current ADSL?
>>>
>>> I'd be interested to know if that is practical. Fibre is being laid in my
>>> village at the moment and will go live over the next few months but that
>>> is Internet only. I looked at Andrews & Arnold for VOIP and they do it but
>>> there is a monthly fee plus per call fees and it looks as if it would be
>>> expensive.
>>>
>>
>> Eh?
>>
>> £15.00 one off to port a landline number in. Then £1.44 per month 'line
>> rental'. You don't have to have A&A broadband or any other service from
>> them for this. If that's not cheap I don't know what is.
>>
>> Yes, their outgoing call rates are higher than many but you are under no
>> obligation to use them. Just use another supplier eg a Betamax offering
>> for outgoing calls while incoming are via A&A.
>>
>> Malcolm
>
> 1.5p/min to landlines 4p/min to mobiles and 3.6p per text is expensive
> compared to my current landline deal or mobile deal.
>
You are missing the point! I agreed A&A were not the cheapest for
outgoing calls. Just because you may use A&A to receive calls on the
number ported to them you *don't* have to make *any* outgoing calls via
them! Make them via another voip provider.

I have two old landline numbers which I ported to them and pay £2.88
total a month to receive calls to those numbers. I route outgoing calls
to all UK numbers and most European numbers for 0p per minute using the
180 freedays I get every time I top up my account with £10. The tenner
is spent on those calls which are chargeable eg 08700 and countries to
which there are no free calls.

You must get out of your head that everything must be done via a single
provider.

Malcolm

On 24/08/2023 in message <kkpkrjFfgf0U1@mid.individual.net> Malcolm Loades
wrote:

>You must get out of your head that everything must be done via a single
>provider.

I am considering what I might do but I do not want a lot of hassle just
for a 'phone, it's not that important to me.

The other option is to go mobile only of course.

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
There are 3 types of people in this world. Those who can count, and those
who can't.

Jeff Gaines <jgnewsid@outlook.com> wrote:
> On 24/08/2023 in message <kkpkrjFfgf0U1@mid.individual.net> Malcolm Loades
> wrote:
>
> >You must get out of your head that everything must be done via a single
> >provider.
>
> I am considering what I might do but I do not want a lot of hassle just
> for a 'phone, it's not that important to me.

If you don't use the phone very much, a PAYG plan sounds ideal.

A lot of people pay for an unlimited calls package, and then don't spend
many minutes making calls. You need to do the maths of 1.5p/min versus
paying say £10pm for the unlimited bundle. I think many people don't make
10 hours of landline calls a month.

> The other option is to go mobile only of course.

That's the other option - there are some good deals for that.

Or use the mobile for your outgoing calls, and keep the landline for
incoming.

Plenty of ways to play this.

Theo

Graham J <nobody@nowhere.co.uk> wrote:
> Theo wrote:
> > The common situation is the phone and broadband is run by $cheapo_ISP and
> > you want to port the number to A&A VOIP. You can't do that without also
> > porting the broadband to A&A as well (very not cheap).
> >
> > If you're on SOGEA, can you now port out the number without ceasing the
> > broadband?
>
> SOGEA is a broadband-only service carried over a copper pair. It's not
> associated with any sort of telephone number.
>
> Until recently conversion to SOGEA would have irretrievably cancelled
> the telephone number. But since about Easter this year it has been
> possible to port-in a cancelled number to another provider, such as
> Voipfone.
>
> Whether $cheapo_ISP will allow the conversion to SOGEA I've no idea.

The question is more that, once the connection is SOGEA, whether the losing
ISP will do anything to the broadband if the phone number is ported out?
They shouldn't, since it's now on their VOIP platform, but I don't know if
the 'phone number is the account number' practice continues on SOGEA ISPs?

(On Sky SOGEA, I've been asked for the phone number as an identifier when
calling them. When I tell them I have no idea, they manage to find another
way to authenticate me)

Theo

Peter wrote:
>
>> Experience with SNOM 300 and the Gigaset N510 IP PRO confirms that no
>> port opening is required. So I don't know why Voipfone suggest it.
>
> Unless you a keep-aline for the NAT tunnel, you cannot receive
> incoming calls.
>
>>> I will get one of these and test it. It won't have my landline number
>>> (they come with some funny number) so I can test it.
>>
>> Good idea. If you order it from Voipfone they will configure it
>> correctly for you.
>
> I can't set up voipfone either, believe it or not. Their account conf
> email vanishes in the Hornet Security spam filter, although their
> original purchase conf email arrived ok. You could not make this up.
> They cannot override this manually due to "security" even after I sent
> them their own email.

I think you should investigate this, to find out exactly why Hornet
Security rejected the email from Voipfone.

Several possibilities:

1. The Voipfone outgoing mail server has a blacklisted IP address. If
so, it would be polite to tell Voipfone ASAP so they can resolve it.

2. You are receiving your email via a forwarding service which fails to
implement the Sender Rewriting Scheme correctly. See:

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sender_Rewriting_Scheme>

123-reg were known for this problem a few years back, when its ownership
changed hands.

3. Hornet Security is being too aggressive. You could whitelist traffic
from Voipfone.

--
Graham J

Graham J <nobody@nowhere.co.uk> wrote

>I think you should investigate this, to find out exactly why Hornet
>Security rejected the email from Voipfone.

I did. Hornet didn't give details, beyond saying the incoming email
contained an exploit. I just whitelisted the domain and the issue went
away.

Their initial account confirm email went through ok but you cannot
login to the control panel etc until you have confirmed a link in
another email and it was this one which wasn't coming through.

>Several possibilities:
>
>1. The Voipfone outgoing mail server has a blacklisted IP address. If
>so, it would be polite to tell Voipfone ASAP so they can resolve it.

Could be.

>2. You are receiving your email via a forwarding service which fails to
>implement the Sender Rewriting Scheme correctly. See:
>
><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sender_Rewriting_Scheme>
>
>123-reg were known for this problem a few years back, when its ownership
>changed hands.

I don't know.

>3. Hornet Security is being too aggressive. You could whitelist traffic
>from Voipfone.

Could well be.

I spent an hour or two on it.

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote

>But that’s a problem with any large organisation. Huge number of customer
>facing employees, some good some hopeless.

I agree. IME, Voda is much better than

- Virgin
- Orange
- O2

but give them a chance to f'k up, they will.

>I still haven’t got my late
>mother out of the BT phone directory, three years after her death and after
>numerous interactions with their bereavement line.

Try Talktalk ;) They really f'd over my mum, after she went into a
care home. It was resolved (on the advice of a guy in a Carphone
Warehouse shop, owned by TT) by sending a Special Dely letter to their
Company Secy, to his home address, threatening a CCJ.

That Grandstream 801 box is a real POS.

The admin/admin login does not work.

The user/123 login does but only 2nd time or subsequent; on 1st you
always get
Sorry, your login password is not recognized,
or you do not have access privilege. Please try again.
Remaining Attempts: 4

The firmware upload URL is lost; never gets saved.
I am using firmware.grandstream.com (per many google hits and the 801
admin manual). Maybe the save is disabled because I am logged in as a
user and not admin.

The phone socket is dead. Phone is totally silent. However it does say
under Status that it is registered.

I am not sure what kind of phone it is expecting. Obviously this box
won't be outputting the 50V. So the phone needs to be separately
powered.

The other thing is that, contrary to what Voipfone told me, there is
no need to open any ports in NAT. This box goes out and does a keep
alive every 20s or so.