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aus+uk / uk.transport.london / BBC gets it wrong

SubjectAuthor
* BBC gets it wrongRoger
`* BBC gets it wrongBlueshirt
 +* BBC gets it wrongRoger
 |+* BBC gets it wrongGraeme Wall
 ||+- BBC gets it wrongRecliner
 ||`- BBC gets it wrongAnna Noyd-Dryver
 |`* BBC gets it wrongRecliner
 | `- BBC gets it wrongAnna Noyd-Dryver
 `* BBC gets it wrongbilly bookcase
  `* BBC gets it wrongBlueshirt
   +- BBC gets it wrongRecliner
   `* BBC gets it wrongbilly bookcase
    +* BBC gets it wrongGraeme Wall
    |`* BBC gets it wrongRecliner
    | `* BBC gets it wrongGraeme Wall
    |  `* BBC gets it wrongRecliner
    |   `* BBC gets it wrongGraeme Wall
    |    `* BBC gets it wrongRecliner
    |     +* BBC gets it wrongGraeme Wall
    |     |+- BBC gets it wrongRecliner
    |     |`* BBC gets it wrongIain Archer
    |     | +* BBC gets it wrongRecliner
    |     | |`- BBC gets it wrongIain Archer
    |     | `- BBC gets it wrongbilly bookcase
    |     `- BBC gets it wrongMuttley
    `* BBC gets it wrongRecliner
     `* BBC gets it wrongTheo
      +* BBC gets it wrongRecliner
      |`* BBC gets it wrongMuttley
      | `* BBC gets it wrongRecliner
      |  `- BBC gets it wrongMuttley
      `* BBC gets it wrongAnna Noyd-Dryver
       `- BBC gets it wrongBlueshirt

Pages:12
BBC gets it wrong

<vi1fji5gk6sgflkmi12fgt02te2r31qr6v@4ax.com>

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From: inva...@invalid.invalid (Roger)
Newsgroups: uk.transport.london
Subject: BBC gets it wrong
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2023 09:57:54 +0100
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 by: Roger - Tue, 24 Oct 2023 08:57 UTC

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-67197933

This article has a glaring error. That doesn't detract from the
game itself, of course.
--
Roger

Re: BBC gets it wrong

<xn0o8h4nczzhbk000@news.eternal-september.org>

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From: bluesh...@indigo.news (Blueshirt)
Newsgroups: uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: BBC gets it wrong
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2023 19:14:33 +0100
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 by: Blueshirt - Tue, 24 Oct 2023 18:14 UTC

Roger wrote:

> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-67197933
>
> This article has a glaring error. That doesn't detract from the
> game itself, of course.

It's the BBC, their standards have dropped over the years... simple
research is not their strongest point.

(I'm assuming it's the "416 stations" thing?)

Re: BBC gets it wrong

<h5agjidcnq3chlkk96iem1l7dss84hk920@4ax.com>

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NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2023 20:37:29 +0000
From: inva...@invalid.invalid (Roger)
Newsgroups: uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: BBC gets it wrong
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2023 21:37:29 +0100
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 by: Roger - Tue, 24 Oct 2023 20:37 UTC

On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 19:14:33 +0100, "Blueshirt"
<blueshirt@indigo.news> wrote:

>Roger wrote:
>
>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-67197933
>>
>> This article has a glaring error. That doesn't detract from the
>> game itself, of course.
>
>It's the BBC, their standards have dropped over the years... simple
>research is not their strongest point.
>
>(I'm assuming it's the "416 stations" thing?)

Indeed that is what I was referring to. I haven't bothered to
work out whether that includes all rail lines; Underground, DLR,
Trams, Overground, and Elizabeth line. From the picture Trams
isn't included.
--
Roger

Re: BBC gets it wrong

<uh9a9a$64rd$1@dont-email.me>

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From: rai...@greywall.demon.co.uk (Graeme Wall)
Newsgroups: uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: BBC gets it wrong
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2023 21:43:22 +0100
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 by: Graeme Wall - Tue, 24 Oct 2023 20:43 UTC

On 24/10/2023 21:37, Roger wrote:
> On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 19:14:33 +0100, "Blueshirt"
> <blueshirt@indigo.news> wrote:
>
>> Roger wrote:
>>
>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-67197933
>>>
>>> This article has a glaring error. That doesn't detract from the
>>> game itself, of course.
>>
>> It's the BBC, their standards have dropped over the years... simple
>> research is not their strongest point.
>>
>> (I'm assuming it's the "416 stations" thing?)
>
> Indeed that is what I was referring to. I haven't bothered to
> work out whether that includes all rail lines; Underground, DLR,
> Trams, Overground, and Elizabeth line. From the picture Trams
> isn't included.

It probably the number the game's creator has listed in his game. If he
says it's 416, why should the BBC argue?
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Re: BBC gets it wrong

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From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: BBC gets it wrong
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2023 20:55:57 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Recliner - Tue, 24 Oct 2023 20:55 UTC

Roger <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 19:14:33 +0100, "Blueshirt"
> <blueshirt@indigo.news> wrote:
>
>> Roger wrote:
>>
>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-67197933
>>>
>>> This article has a glaring error. That doesn't detract from the
>>> game itself, of course.
>>
>> It's the BBC, their standards have dropped over the years... simple
>> research is not their strongest point.
>>
>> (I'm assuming it's the "416 stations" thing?)
>
> Indeed that is what I was referring to. I haven't bothered to
> work out whether that includes all rail lines; Underground, DLR,
> Trams, Overground, and Elizabeth line. From the picture Trams
> isn't included.

It's LU, LO, EL and DLR:

https://london.metro-memory.com

One hint to maximise your score: stations are counted by line, so Victoria
gets you three points, Edgware Road four, Stratford five; and Liverpool
Street, Kings Cross St Pancras and Paddington six each.

Re: BBC gets it wrong

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From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: BBC gets it wrong
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2023 21:16:18 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Recliner - Tue, 24 Oct 2023 21:16 UTC

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 24/10/2023 21:37, Roger wrote:
>> On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 19:14:33 +0100, "Blueshirt"
>> <blueshirt@indigo.news> wrote:
>>
>>> Roger wrote:
>>>
>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-67197933
>>>>
>>>> This article has a glaring error. That doesn't detract from the
>>>> game itself, of course.
>>>
>>> It's the BBC, their standards have dropped over the years... simple
>>> research is not their strongest point.
>>>
>>> (I'm assuming it's the "416 stations" thing?)
>>
>> Indeed that is what I was referring to. I haven't bothered to
>> work out whether that includes all rail lines; Underground, DLR,
>> Trams, Overground, and Elizabeth line. From the picture Trams
>> isn't included.
>
> It probably the number the game's creator has listed in his game. If he
> says it's 416, why should the BBC argue?

Yes

The funny thing is that the game itself seems to set the total at about 595
stations, where each station on each line counts as one (so Hammersmith
counts as 4).

Re: BBC gets it wrong

<duWdnYvy5v1Q5qT4nZ2dnZfqn_GdnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>

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From: bil...@anon.com (billy bookcase)
Newsgroups: uk.transport.london
References: <vi1fji5gk6sgflkmi12fgt02te2r31qr6v@4ax.com> <xn0o8h4nczzhbk000@news.eternal-september.org>
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 by: billy bookcase - Wed, 25 Oct 2023 20:34 UTC

"Blueshirt" <blueshirt@indigo.news> wrote in message
news:xn0o8h4nczzhbk000@news.eternal-september.org...
> Roger wrote:
>
>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-67197933
>>
>> This article has a glaring error. That doesn't detract from the
>> game itself, of course.
>
> It's the BBC, their standards have dropped over the years... simple
> research is not their strongest point.
>
> (I'm assuming it's the "416 stations" thing?)

As its for use on smartphones, presumably as a menu option

"Tube"

would fit better on the screen than would

"London Underground Docklands Light Railway London Overground and
Elizabeth Line"

Although of course that's only a wild guess on my part and based
on very little evidence.

bb

Re: BBC gets it wrong

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From: bluesh...@indigo.news (Blueshirt)
Newsgroups: uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: BBC gets it wrong
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 23:52:05 +0100
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 by: Blueshirt - Wed, 25 Oct 2023 22:52 UTC

billy bookcase wrote:

>
> "Blueshirt" <blueshirt@indigo.news> wrote in message
> news:xn0o8h4nczzhbk000@news.eternal-september.org...
> > Roger wrote:
> >
> > > https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-67197933
> > >
> > > This article has a glaring error. That doesn't detract from the
> > > game itself, of course.
> >
> > It's the BBC, their standards have dropped over the years... simple
> > research is not their strongest point.
> >
> > (I'm assuming it's the "416 stations" thing?)
>
> As its for use on smartphones, presumably as a menu option
>
> "Tube"
>
> would fit better on the screen than would
>
> "London Underground Docklands Light Railway London Overground and
> Elizabeth Line"

I suppose they'll all just be known as "tube stations" one day anyway...

Re: BBC gets it wrong

<uhc92o$13oq2$5@dont-email.me>

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From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: BBC gets it wrong
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 23:41:12 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Recliner - Wed, 25 Oct 2023 23:41 UTC

Blueshirt <blueshirt@indigo.news> wrote:
> billy bookcase wrote:
>
>>
>> "Blueshirt" <blueshirt@indigo.news> wrote in message
>> news:xn0o8h4nczzhbk000@news.eternal-september.org...
>>> Roger wrote:
>>>
>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-67197933
>>>>
>>>> This article has a glaring error. That doesn't detract from the
>>>> game itself, of course.
>>>
>>> It's the BBC, their standards have dropped over the years... simple
>>> research is not their strongest point.
>>>
>>> (I'm assuming it's the "416 stations" thing?)
>>
>> As its for use on smartphones, presumably as a menu option
>>
>> "Tube"
>>
>> would fit better on the screen than would
>>
>> "London Underground Docklands Light Railway London Overground and
>> Elizabeth Line"
>
> I suppose they'll all just be known as "tube stations" one day anyway...
>

Maybe we should suggest Tuffle stations as the umbrella term?

A few have them all (eg, Stratford).

Re: BBC gets it wrong

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Subject: Re: BBC gets it wrong
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 by: billy bookcase - Thu, 26 Oct 2023 10:11 UTC

"Blueshirt" <blueshirt@indigo.news> wrote in message
news:xn0o8iqgm1lchgh001@news.eternal-september.org...
> billy bookcase wrote:
>
>>
>> "Blueshirt" <blueshirt@indigo.news> wrote in message
>> news:xn0o8h4nczzhbk000@news.eternal-september.org...
>> > Roger wrote:
>> >
>> > > https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-67197933
>> > >
>> > > This article has a glaring error. That doesn't detract from the
>> > > game itself, of course.
>> >
>> > It's the BBC, their standards have dropped over the years... simple
>> > research is not their strongest point.
>> >
>> > (I'm assuming it's the "416 stations" thing?)
>>
>> As its for use on smartphones, presumably as a menu option
>>
>> "Tube"
>>
>> would fit better on the screen than would
>>
>> "London Underground Docklands Light Railway London Overground and
>> Elizabeth Line"
>
> I suppose they'll all just be known as "tube stations" one day anyway...

Indeed.

The existing cut and cover line stations were never real "tube" stations
in any case. The term only came into popular use with the opening of
the third deep level line, the Central London Railway in 1900. And its
being nicknamed "The Twopenny Tube" by the "Daily Mail".

Quite when the name "Tube" became generally applicable to all
Underground operations I'm not really sure. And I'm not altogether
certain that Frank Pick would necessarily have approved

bb

Re: BBC gets it wrong

<uhdhm6$1hv4v$1@dont-email.me>

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From: rai...@greywall.demon.co.uk (Graeme Wall)
Newsgroups: uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: BBC gets it wrong
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 12:14:14 +0100
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 by: Graeme Wall - Thu, 26 Oct 2023 11:14 UTC

On 26/10/2023 11:11, billy bookcase wrote:
> "Blueshirt" <blueshirt@indigo.news> wrote in message
> news:xn0o8iqgm1lchgh001@news.eternal-september.org...
>> billy bookcase wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> "Blueshirt" <blueshirt@indigo.news> wrote in message
>>> news:xn0o8h4nczzhbk000@news.eternal-september.org...
>>>> Roger wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-67197933
>>>>>
>>>>> This article has a glaring error. That doesn't detract from the
>>>>> game itself, of course.
>>>>
>>>> It's the BBC, their standards have dropped over the years... simple
>>>> research is not their strongest point.
>>>>
>>>> (I'm assuming it's the "416 stations" thing?)
>>>
>>> As its for use on smartphones, presumably as a menu option
>>>
>>> "Tube"
>>>
>>> would fit better on the screen than would
>>>
>>> "London Underground Docklands Light Railway London Overground and
>>> Elizabeth Line"
>>
>> I suppose they'll all just be known as "tube stations" one day anyway...
>
> Indeed.
>
> The existing cut and cover line stations were never real "tube" stations
> in any case. The term only came into popular use with the opening of
> the third deep level line, the Central London Railway in 1900. And its
> being nicknamed "The Twopenny Tube" by the "Daily Mail".
>
> Quite when the name "Tube" became generally applicable to all
> Underground operations I'm not really sure. And I'm not altogether
> certain that Frank Pick would necessarily have approved
>

Fairly recently because tabloid journalists can't cope with
multi-syllable words.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Re: BBC gets it wrong

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From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: BBC gets it wrong
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 11:41:06 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Recliner - Thu, 26 Oct 2023 11:41 UTC

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 26/10/2023 11:11, billy bookcase wrote:
>> "Blueshirt" <blueshirt@indigo.news> wrote in message
>> news:xn0o8iqgm1lchgh001@news.eternal-september.org...
>>> billy bookcase wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Blueshirt" <blueshirt@indigo.news> wrote in message
>>>> news:xn0o8h4nczzhbk000@news.eternal-september.org...
>>>>> Roger wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-67197933
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This article has a glaring error. That doesn't detract from the
>>>>>> game itself, of course.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's the BBC, their standards have dropped over the years... simple
>>>>> research is not their strongest point.
>>>>>
>>>>> (I'm assuming it's the "416 stations" thing?)
>>>>
>>>> As its for use on smartphones, presumably as a menu option
>>>>
>>>> "Tube"
>>>>
>>>> would fit better on the screen than would
>>>>
>>>> "London Underground Docklands Light Railway London Overground and
>>>> Elizabeth Line"
>>>
>>> I suppose they'll all just be known as "tube stations" one day anyway...
>>
>> Indeed.
>>
>> The existing cut and cover line stations were never real "tube" stations
>> in any case. The term only came into popular use with the opening of
>> the third deep level line, the Central London Railway in 1900. And its
>> being nicknamed "The Twopenny Tube" by the "Daily Mail".
>>
>> Quite when the name "Tube" became generally applicable to all
>> Underground operations I'm not really sure. And I'm not altogether
>> certain that Frank Pick would necessarily have approved
>>
>
> Fairly recently because tabloid journalists can't cope with
> multi-syllable words.
>

I can't remember when TfL/LU started using 'Tube' to cover all of LU, but
it's been quite a few decades. For example, the 'Tube Map' has always
included the SSL.

Look at this listing for Chiswick Park District Line station from 1987:

https://britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/101358798-chiswick-park-underground-station-including-two-platforms-with-canopies-and-shelters-and-shops-to-either-side-of-ticket-hall-southfield-ward

It says:

Also known as: Chiswick Park Underground station
Acton Green tube station
Acton Green Underground station
Chiswick Park & Acton Green Underground station
Chiswick Park & Acton Green tube station

So the terms were almost interchangeable even then.

Re: BBC gets it wrong

<uhdpjv$1k6o7$2@dont-email.me>

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From: rai...@greywall.demon.co.uk (Graeme Wall)
Newsgroups: uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: BBC gets it wrong
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 14:29:35 +0100
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 by: Graeme Wall - Thu, 26 Oct 2023 13:29 UTC

On 26/10/2023 12:41, Recliner wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 26/10/2023 11:11, billy bookcase wrote:
>>> "Blueshirt" <blueshirt@indigo.news> wrote in message
>>> news:xn0o8iqgm1lchgh001@news.eternal-september.org...
>>>> billy bookcase wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Blueshirt" <blueshirt@indigo.news> wrote in message
>>>>> news:xn0o8h4nczzhbk000@news.eternal-september.org...
>>>>>> Roger wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-67197933
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This article has a glaring error. That doesn't detract from the
>>>>>>> game itself, of course.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's the BBC, their standards have dropped over the years... simple
>>>>>> research is not their strongest point.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (I'm assuming it's the "416 stations" thing?)
>>>>>
>>>>> As its for use on smartphones, presumably as a menu option
>>>>>
>>>>> "Tube"
>>>>>
>>>>> would fit better on the screen than would
>>>>>
>>>>> "London Underground Docklands Light Railway London Overground and
>>>>> Elizabeth Line"
>>>>
>>>> I suppose they'll all just be known as "tube stations" one day anyway...
>>>
>>> Indeed.
>>>
>>> The existing cut and cover line stations were never real "tube" stations
>>> in any case. The term only came into popular use with the opening of
>>> the third deep level line, the Central London Railway in 1900. And its
>>> being nicknamed "The Twopenny Tube" by the "Daily Mail".
>>>
>>> Quite when the name "Tube" became generally applicable to all
>>> Underground operations I'm not really sure. And I'm not altogether
>>> certain that Frank Pick would necessarily have approved
>>>
>>
>> Fairly recently because tabloid journalists can't cope with
>> multi-syllable words.
>>
>
> I can't remember when TfL/LU started using 'Tube' to cover all of LU, but
> it's been quite a few decades. For example, the 'Tube Map' has always
> included the SSL.

The earliest example of a "Tube Map", as opposed to a "London
Underground" map, I can find is 1997.

>
> Look at this listing for Chiswick Park District Line station from 1987:
>
> https://britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/101358798-chiswick-park-underground-station-including-two-platforms-with-canopies-and-shelters-and-shops-to-either-side-of-ticket-hall-southfield-ward
>
> It says:
>
> Also known as: Chiswick Park Underground station
> Acton Green tube station
> Acton Green Underground station
> Chiswick Park & Acton Green Underground station
> Chiswick Park & Acton Green tube station
>
> So the terms were almost interchangeable even then.

Wrong, those names are not in the official listing. IIRC British Listed
Buildings is a website run by one of the correspondents on here. So you
will have to ask him where he got those names from and when.

The term tube were used in specific, relevant, instances but the system
was generally known as the Underground.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Re: BBC gets it wrong

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From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: BBC gets it wrong
Message-ID: <qarkji177npi6v6b0obmguuhsk16bqiggt@4ax.com>
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Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 14:55:25 +0100
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 by: Recliner - Thu, 26 Oct 2023 13:55 UTC

On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 14:29:35 +0100, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>On 26/10/2023 12:41, Recliner wrote:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 26/10/2023 11:11, billy bookcase wrote:
>>>> "Blueshirt" <blueshirt@indigo.news> wrote in message
>>>> news:xn0o8iqgm1lchgh001@news.eternal-september.org...
>>>>> billy bookcase wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Blueshirt" <blueshirt@indigo.news> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:xn0o8h4nczzhbk000@news.eternal-september.org...
>>>>>>> Roger wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-67197933
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This article has a glaring error. That doesn't detract from the
>>>>>>>> game itself, of course.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's the BBC, their standards have dropped over the years... simple
>>>>>>> research is not their strongest point.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (I'm assuming it's the "416 stations" thing?)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As its for use on smartphones, presumably as a menu option
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Tube"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> would fit better on the screen than would
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "London Underground Docklands Light Railway London Overground and
>>>>>> Elizabeth Line"
>>>>>
>>>>> I suppose they'll all just be known as "tube stations" one day anyway...
>>>>
>>>> Indeed.
>>>>
>>>> The existing cut and cover line stations were never real "tube" stations
>>>> in any case. The term only came into popular use with the opening of
>>>> the third deep level line, the Central London Railway in 1900. And its
>>>> being nicknamed "The Twopenny Tube" by the "Daily Mail".
>>>>
>>>> Quite when the name "Tube" became generally applicable to all
>>>> Underground operations I'm not really sure. And I'm not altogether
>>>> certain that Frank Pick would necessarily have approved
>>>>
>>>
>>> Fairly recently because tabloid journalists can't cope with
>>> multi-syllable words.
>>>
>>
>> I can't remember when TfL/LU started using 'Tube' to cover all of LU, but
>> it's been quite a few decades. For example, the 'Tube Map' has always
>> included the SSL.
>
>The earliest example of a "Tube Map", as opposed to a "London
>Underground" map, I can find is 1997.

April 1996:
https://www.ltmuseum.co.uk/collections/collections-online/posters/item/1996-3375

>
>>
>> Look at this listing for Chiswick Park District Line station from 1987:
>>
>> https://britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/101358798-chiswick-park-underground-station-including-two-platforms-with-canopies-and-shelters-and-shops-to-either-side-of-ticket-hall-southfield-ward
>>
>> It says:
>>
>> Also known as: Chiswick Park Underground station
>> Acton Green tube station
>> Acton Green Underground station
>> Chiswick Park & Acton Green Underground station
>> Chiswick Park & Acton Green tube station
>>
>> So the terms were almost interchangeable even then.
>
>Wrong, those names are not in the official listing. IIRC British Listed
>Buildings is a website run by one of the correspondents on here. So you
>will have to ask him where he got those names from and when.

It was obviously before 1987.

>
>
>The term tube were used in specific, relevant, instances but the system
>was generally known as the Underground.

Officially, perhaps, but colloquially it's long been known simply as the Tube.

Re: BBC gets it wrong

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Newsgroups: uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: BBC gets it wrong
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Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 15:05:47 +0100
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 by: Recliner - Thu, 26 Oct 2023 14:05 UTC

On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 11:11:02 +0100, "billy bookcase" <billy@anon.com> wrote:

>
>"Blueshirt" <blueshirt@indigo.news> wrote in message
>news:xn0o8iqgm1lchgh001@news.eternal-september.org...
>> billy bookcase wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> "Blueshirt" <blueshirt@indigo.news> wrote in message
>>> news:xn0o8h4nczzhbk000@news.eternal-september.org...
>>> > Roger wrote:
>>> >
>>> > > https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-67197933
>>> > >
>>> > > This article has a glaring error. That doesn't detract from the
>>> > > game itself, of course.
>>> >
>>> > It's the BBC, their standards have dropped over the years... simple
>>> > research is not their strongest point.
>>> >
>>> > (I'm assuming it's the "416 stations" thing?)
>>>
>>> As its for use on smartphones, presumably as a menu option
>>>
>>> "Tube"
>>>
>>> would fit better on the screen than would
>>>
>>> "London Underground Docklands Light Railway London Overground and
>>> Elizabeth Line"
>>
>> I suppose they'll all just be known as "tube stations" one day anyway...
>
>Indeed.
>
>The existing cut and cover line stations were never real "tube" stations
>in any case. The term only came into popular use with the opening of
>the third deep level line, the Central London Railway in 1900. And its
>being nicknamed "The Twopenny Tube" by the "Daily Mail".
>
>Quite when the name "Tube" became generally applicable to all
>Underground operations I'm not really sure. And I'm not altogether
>certain that Frank Pick would necessarily have approved

One other confusion is with the Elizabeth Line, which (mainly because of its name) was initially thought to be just the
latest Tube line. And, indeed, in central London, it does run in deep tubes, albeit larger diameter ones.

Even in uk.railway, many were confused, not understanding that TfL ranked it alongside the Underground, Overground, DLR,
Trams, etc, rather than with the individual LU lines.

Re: BBC gets it wrong

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From: rai...@greywall.demon.co.uk (Graeme Wall)
Newsgroups: uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: BBC gets it wrong
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 16:22:06 +0100
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 by: Graeme Wall - Thu, 26 Oct 2023 15:22 UTC

On 26/10/2023 14:55, Recliner wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 14:29:35 +0100, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 26/10/2023 12:41, Recliner wrote:
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 26/10/2023 11:11, billy bookcase wrote:
>>>>> "Blueshirt" <blueshirt@indigo.news> wrote in message
>>>>> news:xn0o8iqgm1lchgh001@news.eternal-september.org...
>>>>>> billy bookcase wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Blueshirt" <blueshirt@indigo.news> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:xn0o8h4nczzhbk000@news.eternal-september.org...
>>>>>>>> Roger wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-67197933
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This article has a glaring error. That doesn't detract from the
>>>>>>>>> game itself, of course.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's the BBC, their standards have dropped over the years... simple
>>>>>>>> research is not their strongest point.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> (I'm assuming it's the "416 stations" thing?)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As its for use on smartphones, presumably as a menu option
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Tube"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> would fit better on the screen than would
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "London Underground Docklands Light Railway London Overground and
>>>>>>> Elizabeth Line"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I suppose they'll all just be known as "tube stations" one day anyway...
>>>>>
>>>>> Indeed.
>>>>>
>>>>> The existing cut and cover line stations were never real "tube" stations
>>>>> in any case. The term only came into popular use with the opening of
>>>>> the third deep level line, the Central London Railway in 1900. And its
>>>>> being nicknamed "The Twopenny Tube" by the "Daily Mail".
>>>>>
>>>>> Quite when the name "Tube" became generally applicable to all
>>>>> Underground operations I'm not really sure. And I'm not altogether
>>>>> certain that Frank Pick would necessarily have approved
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Fairly recently because tabloid journalists can't cope with
>>>> multi-syllable words.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I can't remember when TfL/LU started using 'Tube' to cover all of LU, but
>>> it's been quite a few decades. For example, the 'Tube Map' has always
>>> included the SSL.
>>
>> The earliest example of a "Tube Map", as opposed to a "London
>> Underground" map, I can find is 1997.
>
> April 1996:
> https://www.ltmuseum.co.uk/collections/collections-online/posters/item/1996-3375
>
>>
>>>
>>> Look at this listing for Chiswick Park District Line station from 1987:
>>>
>>> https://britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/101358798-chiswick-park-underground-station-including-two-platforms-with-canopies-and-shelters-and-shops-to-either-side-of-ticket-hall-southfield-ward
>>>
>>> It says:
>>>
>>> Also known as: Chiswick Park Underground station
>>> Acton Green tube station
>>> Acton Green Underground station
>>> Chiswick Park & Acton Green Underground station
>>> Chiswick Park & Acton Green tube station
>>>
>>> So the terms were almost interchangeable even then.
>>
>> Wrong, those names are not in the official listing. IIRC British Listed
>> Buildings is a website run by one of the correspondents on here. So you
>> will have to ask him where he got those names from and when.
>
> It was obviously before 1987.

Nothing obvious about it. The listing date is 1987, I sincerely doubt
that the British Listed Buildings website existed then.

>
>>
>>
>> The term tube were used in specific, relevant, instances but the system
>> was generally known as the Underground.
>
> Officially, perhaps, but colloquially it's long been known simply as the Tube.

IME the "Tube" has always referred to the deep level lines.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Re: BBC gets it wrong

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From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: BBC gets it wrong
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 15:51:18 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Recliner - Thu, 26 Oct 2023 15:51 UTC

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 26/10/2023 14:55, Recliner wrote:
>> On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 14:29:35 +0100, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 26/10/2023 12:41, Recliner wrote:
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 26/10/2023 11:11, billy bookcase wrote:
>>>>>> "Blueshirt" <blueshirt@indigo.news> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:xn0o8iqgm1lchgh001@news.eternal-september.org...
>>>>>>> billy bookcase wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Blueshirt" <blueshirt@indigo.news> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:xn0o8h4nczzhbk000@news.eternal-september.org...
>>>>>>>>> Roger wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-67197933
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This article has a glaring error. That doesn't detract from the
>>>>>>>>>> game itself, of course.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It's the BBC, their standards have dropped over the years... simple
>>>>>>>>> research is not their strongest point.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> (I'm assuming it's the "416 stations" thing?)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As its for use on smartphones, presumably as a menu option
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Tube"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> would fit better on the screen than would
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "London Underground Docklands Light Railway London Overground and
>>>>>>>> Elizabeth Line"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I suppose they'll all just be known as "tube stations" one day anyway...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Indeed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The existing cut and cover line stations were never real "tube" stations
>>>>>> in any case. The term only came into popular use with the opening of
>>>>>> the third deep level line, the Central London Railway in 1900. And its
>>>>>> being nicknamed "The Twopenny Tube" by the "Daily Mail".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Quite when the name "Tube" became generally applicable to all
>>>>>> Underground operations I'm not really sure. And I'm not altogether
>>>>>> certain that Frank Pick would necessarily have approved
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Fairly recently because tabloid journalists can't cope with
>>>>> multi-syllable words.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I can't remember when TfL/LU started using 'Tube' to cover all of LU, but
>>>> it's been quite a few decades. For example, the 'Tube Map' has always
>>>> included the SSL.
>>>
>>> The earliest example of a "Tube Map", as opposed to a "London
>>> Underground" map, I can find is 1997.
>>
>> April 1996:
>> https://www.ltmuseum.co.uk/collections/collections-online/posters/item/1996-3375
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Look at this listing for Chiswick Park District Line station from 1987:
>>>>
>>>> https://britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/101358798-chiswick-park-underground-station-including-two-platforms-with-canopies-and-shelters-and-shops-to-either-side-of-ticket-hall-southfield-ward
>>>>
>>>> It says:
>>>>
>>>> Also known as: Chiswick Park Underground station
>>>> Acton Green tube station
>>>> Acton Green Underground station
>>>> Chiswick Park & Acton Green Underground station
>>>> Chiswick Park & Acton Green tube station
>>>>
>>>> So the terms were almost interchangeable even then.
>>>
>>> Wrong, those names are not in the official listing. IIRC British Listed
>>> Buildings is a website run by one of the correspondents on here. So you
>>> will have to ask him where he got those names from and when.
>>
>> It was obviously before 1987.
>
> Nothing obvious about it. The listing date is 1987, I sincerely doubt
> that the British Listed Buildings website existed then.

The point is that the Acton Green station name was from the early days of
the station. If some people were already calling it Acton Green tube
station back then, then there was never a clear distinction.

>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The term tube were used in specific, relevant, instances but the system
>>> was generally known as the Underground.
>>
>> Officially, perhaps, but colloquially it's long been known simply as the Tube.
>
> IME the "Tube" has always referred to the deep level lines.

Non-nerds have long said they were 'taking the Tube', regardless of which
line(s) they were using.

Re: BBC gets it wrong

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From: theom+n...@chiark.greenend.org.uk (Theo)
Newsgroups: uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: BBC gets it wrong
Date: 26 Oct 2023 16:55:45 +0100 (BST)
Organization: University of Cambridge, England
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 by: Theo - Thu, 26 Oct 2023 15:55 UTC

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 11:11:02 +0100, "billy bookcase" <billy@anon.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Blueshirt" <blueshirt@indigo.news> wrote in message
> >news:xn0o8iqgm1lchgh001@news.eternal-september.org...
> >>
> >> I suppose they'll all just be known as "tube stations" one day anyway...
> >
> >Indeed.
>
> >The existing cut and cover line stations were never real "tube" stations
> >in any case. The term only came into popular use with the opening of
> >the third deep level line, the Central London Railway in 1900. And its
> >being nicknamed "The Twopenny Tube" by the "Daily Mail".
> >
> >Quite when the name "Tube" became generally applicable to all
> >Underground operations I'm not really sure. And I'm not altogether
> >certain that Frank Pick would necessarily have approved

When tube meant the deep level lines, what did people collectively call the
sub-surface lines? Originally they were distinct companies (Metropolitan
District Railway etc) but what happened once merged into LT? Especially the
bits where the District/Circle/Met combined (how would you say 'the ...
platform at Farringdon'?)

> One other confusion is with the Elizabeth Line, which (mainly because of
> its name) was initially thought to be just the latest Tube line. And,
> indeed, in central London, it does run in deep tubes, albeit larger
> diameter ones.
>
> Even in uk.railway, many were confused, not understanding that TfL ranked
> it alongside the Underground, Overground, DLR, Trams, etc, rather than
> with the individual LU lines.

I suppose there are certain customer-facing differences between the 'tube'
(including SSL) and the EL (eg availability of through NR tickets on the
EL), similarly with Overground (NR tickets) - any differences with the DLR?.
But otherwise I wonder if TfL will keep up this distinction once their shiny
new railway just becomes an unremarkable part of the fabric of London.

Theo

Re: BBC gets it wrong

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From: rai...@greywall.demon.co.uk (Graeme Wall)
Newsgroups: uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: BBC gets it wrong
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 16:57:47 +0100
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 by: Graeme Wall - Thu, 26 Oct 2023 15:57 UTC

On 26/10/2023 16:51, Recliner wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 26/10/2023 14:55, Recliner wrote:
>>> On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 14:29:35 +0100, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 26/10/2023 12:41, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 26/10/2023 11:11, billy bookcase wrote:
>>>>>>> "Blueshirt" <blueshirt@indigo.news> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:xn0o8iqgm1lchgh001@news.eternal-september.org...
>>>>>>>> billy bookcase wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Blueshirt" <blueshirt@indigo.news> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> news:xn0o8h4nczzhbk000@news.eternal-september.org...
>>>>>>>>>> Roger wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-67197933
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> This article has a glaring error. That doesn't detract from the
>>>>>>>>>>> game itself, of course.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It's the BBC, their standards have dropped over the years... simple
>>>>>>>>>> research is not their strongest point.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> (I'm assuming it's the "416 stations" thing?)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As its for use on smartphones, presumably as a menu option
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Tube"
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> would fit better on the screen than would
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "London Underground Docklands Light Railway London Overground and
>>>>>>>>> Elizabeth Line"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I suppose they'll all just be known as "tube stations" one day anyway...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Indeed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The existing cut and cover line stations were never real "tube" stations
>>>>>>> in any case. The term only came into popular use with the opening of
>>>>>>> the third deep level line, the Central London Railway in 1900. And its
>>>>>>> being nicknamed "The Twopenny Tube" by the "Daily Mail".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Quite when the name "Tube" became generally applicable to all
>>>>>>> Underground operations I'm not really sure. And I'm not altogether
>>>>>>> certain that Frank Pick would necessarily have approved
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fairly recently because tabloid journalists can't cope with
>>>>>> multi-syllable words.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I can't remember when TfL/LU started using 'Tube' to cover all of LU, but
>>>>> it's been quite a few decades. For example, the 'Tube Map' has always
>>>>> included the SSL.
>>>>
>>>> The earliest example of a "Tube Map", as opposed to a "London
>>>> Underground" map, I can find is 1997.
>>>
>>> April 1996:
>>> https://www.ltmuseum.co.uk/collections/collections-online/posters/item/1996-3375
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Look at this listing for Chiswick Park District Line station from 1987:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/101358798-chiswick-park-underground-station-including-two-platforms-with-canopies-and-shelters-and-shops-to-either-side-of-ticket-hall-southfield-ward
>>>>>
>>>>> It says:
>>>>>
>>>>> Also known as: Chiswick Park Underground station
>>>>> Acton Green tube station
>>>>> Acton Green Underground station
>>>>> Chiswick Park & Acton Green Underground station
>>>>> Chiswick Park & Acton Green tube station
>>>>>
>>>>> So the terms were almost interchangeable even then.
>>>>
>>>> Wrong, those names are not in the official listing. IIRC British Listed
>>>> Buildings is a website run by one of the correspondents on here. So you
>>>> will have to ask him where he got those names from and when.
>>>
>>> It was obviously before 1987.
>>
>> Nothing obvious about it. The listing date is 1987, I sincerely doubt
>> that the British Listed Buildings website existed then.
>
> The point is that the Acton Green station name was from the early days of
> the station. If some people were already calling it Acton Green tube
> station back then, then there was never a clear distinction.
>

The key word there is "if".

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Re: BBC gets it wrong

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From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: BBC gets it wrong
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 16:10:56 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Recliner - Thu, 26 Oct 2023 16:10 UTC

Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 11:11:02 +0100, "billy bookcase" <billy@anon.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> "Blueshirt" <blueshirt@indigo.news> wrote in message
>>> news:xn0o8iqgm1lchgh001@news.eternal-september.org...
>>>>
>>>> I suppose they'll all just be known as "tube stations" one day anyway...
>>>
>>> Indeed.
>>
>>> The existing cut and cover line stations were never real "tube" stations
>>> in any case. The term only came into popular use with the opening of
>>> the third deep level line, the Central London Railway in 1900. And its
>>> being nicknamed "The Twopenny Tube" by the "Daily Mail".
>>>
>>> Quite when the name "Tube" became generally applicable to all
>>> Underground operations I'm not really sure. And I'm not altogether
>>> certain that Frank Pick would necessarily have approved
>
> When tube meant the deep level lines, what did people collectively call the
> sub-surface lines? Originally they were distinct companies (Metropolitan
> District Railway etc) but what happened once merged into LT? Especially the
> bits where the District/Circle/Met combined (how would you say 'the ...
> platform at Farringdon'?)
>
>> One other confusion is with the Elizabeth Line, which (mainly because of
>> its name) was initially thought to be just the latest Tube line. And,
>> indeed, in central London, it does run in deep tubes, albeit larger
>> diameter ones.
>>
>> Even in uk.railway, many were confused, not understanding that TfL ranked
>> it alongside the Underground, Overground, DLR, Trams, etc, rather than
>> with the individual LU lines.
>
> I suppose there are certain customer-facing differences between the 'tube'
> (including SSL) and the EL (eg availability of through NR tickets on the
> EL), similarly with Overground (NR tickets) - any differences with the DLR?.
> But otherwise I wonder if TfL will keep up this distinction once their shiny
> new railway just becomes an unremarkable part of the fabric of London.

I think so. But, arguably, the EL could eventually be merged with LO,
particularly after the latter becomes six named lines. The EL could just
become the seventh LO line, all operated by Aventras. But I don't expect it
any time soon.

Re: BBC gets it wrong

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Newsgroups: uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: BBC gets it wrong
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2023 07:53:26 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com - Fri, 27 Oct 2023 07:53 UTC

On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 15:51:18 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> IME the "Tube" has always referred to the deep level lines.
>
>Non-nerds have long said they were 'taking the Tube', regardless of which
>line(s) they were using.

I suspect plenty of nerds do too. Its been a while since the tube just refered
to the deep lines.

Re: BBC gets it wrong

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 by: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com - Fri, 27 Oct 2023 07:55 UTC

On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 16:10:56 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 11:11:02 +0100, "billy bookcase" <billy@anon.com> wrote:
>> But otherwise I wonder if TfL will keep up this distinction once their shiny
>> new railway just becomes an unremarkable part of the fabric of London.
>
>I think so. But, arguably, the EL could eventually be merged with LO,
>particularly after the latter becomes six named lines. The EL could just
>become the seventh LO line, all operated by Aventras. But I don't expect it
>any time soon.

Or better yet convert it back to a tube line so its service isn't screwed up
by the goings on on southern region.

Re: BBC gets it wrong

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From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: BBC gets it wrong
Message-ID: <9kanjit1prkqgnv6oah6ecm8da8hq3qh7m@4ax.com>
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 by: Recliner - Fri, 27 Oct 2023 12:19 UTC

On Fri, 27 Oct 2023 07:55:24 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:

>On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 16:10:56 -0000 (UTC)
>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 11:11:02 +0100, "billy bookcase" <billy@anon.com> wrote:
>>> But otherwise I wonder if TfL will keep up this distinction once their shiny
>>> new railway just becomes an unremarkable part of the fabric of London.
>>
>>I think so. But, arguably, the EL could eventually be merged with LO,
>>particularly after the latter becomes six named lines. The EL could just
>>become the seventh LO line, all operated by Aventras. But I don't expect it
>>any time soon.
>
>Or better yet convert it back to a tube line so its service isn't screwed up
>by the goings on on southern region.

The Elizabeth Line was never a Tube line and isn't affected by problems on the Southern region.

Re: BBC gets it wrong

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From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: BBC gets it wrong
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 by: Recliner - Fri, 27 Oct 2023 12:34 UTC

On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 16:57:47 +0100, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>On 26/10/2023 16:51, Recliner wrote:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 26/10/2023 14:55, Recliner wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 14:29:35 +0100, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 26/10/2023 12:41, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 26/10/2023 11:11, billy bookcase wrote:
>>>>>>>> "Blueshirt" <blueshirt@indigo.news> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:xn0o8iqgm1lchgh001@news.eternal-september.org...
>>>>>>>>> billy bookcase wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "Blueshirt" <blueshirt@indigo.news> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>> news:xn0o8h4nczzhbk000@news.eternal-september.org...
>>>>>>>>>>> Roger wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-67197933
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> This article has a glaring error. That doesn't detract from the
>>>>>>>>>>>> game itself, of course.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It's the BBC, their standards have dropped over the years... simple
>>>>>>>>>>> research is not their strongest point.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> (I'm assuming it's the "416 stations" thing?)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As its for use on smartphones, presumably as a menu option
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "Tube"
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> would fit better on the screen than would
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "London Underground Docklands Light Railway London Overground and
>>>>>>>>>> Elizabeth Line"
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I suppose they'll all just be known as "tube stations" one day anyway...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Indeed.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The existing cut and cover line stations were never real "tube" stations
>>>>>>>> in any case. The term only came into popular use with the opening of
>>>>>>>> the third deep level line, the Central London Railway in 1900. And its
>>>>>>>> being nicknamed "The Twopenny Tube" by the "Daily Mail".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Quite when the name "Tube" became generally applicable to all
>>>>>>>> Underground operations I'm not really sure. And I'm not altogether
>>>>>>>> certain that Frank Pick would necessarily have approved
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Fairly recently because tabloid journalists can't cope with
>>>>>>> multi-syllable words.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I can't remember when TfL/LU started using 'Tube' to cover all of LU, but
>>>>>> it's been quite a few decades. For example, the 'Tube Map' has always
>>>>>> included the SSL.
>>>>>
>>>>> The earliest example of a "Tube Map", as opposed to a "London
>>>>> Underground" map, I can find is 1997.
>>>>
>>>> April 1996:
>>>> https://www.ltmuseum.co.uk/collections/collections-online/posters/item/1996-3375
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Look at this listing for Chiswick Park District Line station from 1987:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/101358798-chiswick-park-underground-station-including-two-platforms-with-canopies-and-shelters-and-shops-to-either-side-of-ticket-hall-southfield-ward
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It says:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also known as: Chiswick Park Underground station
>>>>>> Acton Green tube station
>>>>>> Acton Green Underground station
>>>>>> Chiswick Park & Acton Green Underground station
>>>>>> Chiswick Park & Acton Green tube station
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So the terms were almost interchangeable even then.
>>>>>
>>>>> Wrong, those names are not in the official listing. IIRC British Listed
>>>>> Buildings is a website run by one of the correspondents on here. So you
>>>>> will have to ask him where he got those names from and when.
>>>>
>>>> It was obviously before 1987.
>>>
>>> Nothing obvious about it. The listing date is 1987, I sincerely doubt
>>> that the British Listed Buildings website existed then.
>>
>> The point is that the Acton Green station name was from the early days of
>> the station. If some people were already calling it Acton Green tube
>> station back then, then there was never a clear distinction.
>>
>
>The key word there is "if".

True, but would someone have invented it decades later? Why would they do that?

Re: BBC gets it wrong

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From: ian...@montaigne.me.uk (Iain Archer)
Newsgroups: uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: BBC gets it wrong
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2023 13:55:54 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Iain Archer - Fri, 27 Oct 2023 13:55 UTC

On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 16:57:47 +0100, Graeme Wall wrote:

> On 26/10/2023 16:51, Recliner wrote:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 26/10/2023 14:55, Recliner wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 14:29:35 +0100, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 26/10/2023 12:41, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 26/10/2023 11:11, billy bookcase wrote:
>>>>>>>> "Blueshirt" <blueshirt@indigo.news> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:xn0o8iqgm1lchgh001@news.eternal-september.org...
>>>>>>>>> billy bookcase wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "Blueshirt" <blueshirt@indigo.news> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>> news:xn0o8h4nczzhbk000@news.eternal-september.org...
>>>>>>>>>>> Roger wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-67197933
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> This article has a glaring error. That doesn't detract from the
>>>>>>>>>>>> game itself, of course.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It's the BBC, their standards have dropped over the years... simple
>>>>>>>>>>> research is not their strongest point.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> (I'm assuming it's the "416 stations" thing?)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As its for use on smartphones, presumably as a menu option
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "Tube"
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> would fit better on the screen than would
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "London Underground Docklands Light Railway London Overground and
>>>>>>>>>> Elizabeth Line"
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I suppose they'll all just be known as "tube stations" one day anyway...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Indeed.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The existing cut and cover line stations were never real "tube" stations
>>>>>>>> in any case. The term only came into popular use with the opening of
>>>>>>>> the third deep level line, the Central London Railway in 1900. And its
>>>>>>>> being nicknamed "The Twopenny Tube" by the "Daily Mail".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Quite when the name "Tube" became generally applicable to all
>>>>>>>> Underground operations I'm not really sure. And I'm not altogether
>>>>>>>> certain that Frank Pick would necessarily have approved
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Fairly recently because tabloid journalists can't cope with
>>>>>>> multi-syllable words.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I can't remember when TfL/LU started using 'Tube' to cover all of LU, but
>>>>>> it's been quite a few decades. For example, the 'Tube Map' has always
>>>>>> included the SSL.
>>>>>
>>>>> The earliest example of a "Tube Map", as opposed to a "London
>>>>> Underground" map, I can find is 1997.
>>>>
>>>> April 1996:
>>>> https://www.ltmuseum.co.uk/collections/collections-online/posters/item/1996-3375
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Look at this listing for Chiswick Park District Line station from 1987:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/101358798-chiswick-park-underground-station-including-two-platforms-with-canopies-and-shelters-and-shops-to-either-side-of-ticket-hall-southfield-ward
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It says:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also known as: Chiswick Park Underground station
>>>>>> Acton Green tube station
>>>>>> Acton Green Underground station
>>>>>> Chiswick Park & Acton Green Underground station
>>>>>> Chiswick Park & Acton Green tube station
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So the terms were almost interchangeable even then.
>>>>>
>>>>> Wrong, those names are not in the official listing. IIRC British Listed
>>>>> Buildings is a website run by one of the correspondents on here. So you
>>>>> will have to ask him where he got those names from and when.
>>>>
>>>> It was obviously before 1987.
>>>
>>> Nothing obvious about it. The listing date is 1987, I sincerely doubt
>>> that the British Listed Buildings website existed then.
>>
>> The point is that the Acton Green station name was from the early days of
>> the station. If some people were already calling it Acton Green tube
>> station back then, then there was never a clear distinction.
>>
>
> The key word there is "if".

Re "tube" for cut-and-cover stations, here are a few examples from
local papers got from a search of britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk.

[quote]
BABY ABANDONED AT TUBE STATION
Found abandoned last week in the women's
cloakroom at Bayswater, Queensway,
tube station. 1947
[ie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayswater_tube_station]

COLLAPSED IN TUBE STATION
As he stood at the foot of the steps leading to the
main booking hall of Putney Bridge station, ...
West London Observer - Friday 01 October 1954

OPPOSITE MORDEN TUBE STATION
Garage display ad 1956
[unquote]

I think that was from a search starting somewhere in the 40s. I don't
myself remember, from the 1950's on, not thinking of the District line
trains running from Wimbledon as tube trains.

Re "tube" in general: that appears in use very early. The OED shows
"tube railway" (1900-), tube-train (1901-) "tube station"(1913-) and
"The Tube" (1924).

In BNA it can be found in newspaper display ads early in the century, eg:
"HAMPSTEAD TUBE NOW OPEN
(CHARING CROSS EUSTON & HIGHGATE RAILWAY)" - a full page ad, with
some journey times, fares and connection points, in The Bystander of
Wednesday 26 June 1907. The London-wide map labels include Bakerloo Tube",
"Piccadilly Tube" and "District Railway"; whereas a similar one six
months earlier had each line labelled with its railway company name.

"TUBE LIFT POSTERS" (1908)

"Take the Tube to Thompsons" (1908)

And, I think, to cap any doubt that "tube" was a common colloquialism
very early on, numerous accommodation small ads, from at least 1907,
containing the like of "Close tube, bus, rail,...".


aus+uk / uk.transport.london / BBC gets it wrong

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