Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:
> Am 08.03.23 um 23:59 schrieb Chris:
>> Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:
>>> Am 08.03.23 um 05:00 schrieb WolfFan:
>>>> On Mar 7, 2023, Joerg Lorenz wrote
>>>>> For Christ's sake use well documented Open Source formats and software!
>>>>> The proposals above are all proprietary crap and in 20-30 years from now
>>>>> nobody can open this digital mortuary.
>>>>
>>>> OpenOffice, LibreOffice, NeoOffice, and so on suffer from the GIMP Problem:
>>>> they are clunky, annoying, and poorly designed. MS Office is no prize, but
>>>> OO/LO/NO are worse. Pages and Keynote are well-designed. I decline to use
>>>> poorly-designed stuff just because it’s open-source.
>>>
>>> That is your opinion. I think and experience the opposite.
>>
>> Seriously?! Am a fan all things open source, but LO simply cannot compete
>> in UI and functionality. Impress in particular is embarrassingly bad.
>
> I hardly ever use presentation programs. Usually they are the worst
> piece of software that exist.

I give presentations on a weekly basis, often more, so powerpoint is
probably my most application after email.

Am 09.03.23 um 14:18 schrieb Chris:
> Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:
>> Am 08.03.23 um 23:59 schrieb Chris:
>>> Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:
>>>> Am 08.03.23 um 05:00 schrieb WolfFan:
>>>>> On Mar 7, 2023, Joerg Lorenz wrote
>>>>>> For Christ's sake use well documented Open Source formats and software!
>>>>>> The proposals above are all proprietary crap and in 20-30 years from now
>>>>>> nobody can open this digital mortuary.
>>>>>
>>>>> OpenOffice, LibreOffice, NeoOffice, and so on suffer from the GIMP Problem:
>>>>> they are clunky, annoying, and poorly designed. MS Office is no prize, but
>>>>> OO/LO/NO are worse. Pages and Keynote are well-designed. I decline to use
>>>>> poorly-designed stuff just because it’s open-source.
>>>>
>>>> That is your opinion. I think and experience the opposite.
>>>
>>> Seriously?! Am a fan all things open source, but LO simply cannot compete
>>> in UI and functionality. Impress in particular is embarrassingly bad.
>>
>> I hardly ever use presentation programs. Usually they are the worst
>> piece of software that exist.
>
> I give presentations on a weekly basis, often more, so powerpoint is
> probably my most application after email.

Poor guy! I give presentations too but I don't create them.

--
Gutta cavat lapidem (Ovid)

Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:
> Am 09.03.23 um 14:18 schrieb Chris:
>> Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:
>>> Am 08.03.23 um 23:59 schrieb Chris:
>>>> Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:
>>>>> Am 08.03.23 um 05:00 schrieb WolfFan:
>>>>>> On Mar 7, 2023, Joerg Lorenz wrote
>>>>>>> For Christ's sake use well documented Open Source formats and software!
>>>>>>> The proposals above are all proprietary crap and in 20-30 years from now
>>>>>>> nobody can open this digital mortuary.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> OpenOffice, LibreOffice, NeoOffice, and so on suffer from the GIMP Problem:
>>>>>> they are clunky, annoying, and poorly designed. MS Office is no prize, but
>>>>>> OO/LO/NO are worse. Pages and Keynote are well-designed. I decline to use
>>>>>> poorly-designed stuff just because it’s open-source.
>>>>>
>>>>> That is your opinion. I think and experience the opposite.
>>>>
>>>> Seriously?! Am a fan all things open source, but LO simply cannot compete
>>>> in UI and functionality. Impress in particular is embarrassingly bad.
>>>
>>> I hardly ever use presentation programs. Usually they are the worst
>>> piece of software that exist.
>>
>> I give presentations on a weekly basis, often more, so powerpoint is
>> probably my most application after email.
>
> Poor guy! I give presentations too but I don't create them.

The last presentation I gave used an OHP and hand drawn slides ;-)

--
Cheers, Alan

On Mar 8, 2023, Chris wrote
(in article <tub40k$14btu$1@dont-email.me>):

> Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:
> > Am 08.03.23 um 05:00 schrieb WolfFan:
> > > On Mar 7, 2023, Joerg Lorenz wrote
> > > > For Christ's sake use well documented Open Source formats and software!
> > > > The proposals above are all proprietary crap and in 20-30 years from now
> > > > nobody can open this digital mortuary.
> > >
> > > OpenOffice, LibreOffice, NeoOffice, and so on suffer from the GIMP Problem:
> > > they are clunky, annoying, and poorly designed. MS Office is no prize, but
> > > OO/LO/NO are worse. Pages and Keynote are well-designed. I decline to use
> > > poorly-designed stuff just because it’s open-source.
> >
> > That is your opinion. I think and experience the opposite.
>
> Seriously?! Am a fan all things open source, but LO simply cannot compete
> in UI and functionality. Impress in particular is embarrassingly bad.

LO, like many other open-source projects, has severe UI problems. The devs
either cannot or will not address these problems. The GIMP, for example, is
far less usable than Photoshop. Worse, it’s less usable than Affinity
Photo. Hell, it’s less usable than _Graphic Converter_, which is
_shareware_ and doesn’t have the greatest UI... but the dev listens to the
users and makes improvements. I’m on v11.something. I started on v2 in
about 1995. I paid for the original license, and maybe three times over just
short on three decades for updates, as most updates were and are free. I’ve
contacted the dev a few times over the year, maybe a half dozen times total.
He has always responded within 48 hours. He has usually got a fix for the
problem, typically in a few days. Once it took about three months, but that
was an obscure problem which was hard to reproduce.

The devs at LO have never replied to any of my feedback. Not even once. Even
bloody Microsoft does better. Apple pays attention to bug reports if you’re
in AppleSeed, which I am. LO does _nothing_. Perhaps others have had better
luck getting responses.

On 9 Mar 2023 at 13:18:50 GMT, "Chris" <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote:

> Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:
>> Am 08.03.23 um 23:59 schrieb Chris:
>>> Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:
>>>> Am 08.03.23 um 05:00 schrieb WolfFan:
>>>>> On Mar 7, 2023, Joerg Lorenz wrote
>>>>>> For Christ's sake use well documented Open Source formats and software!
>>>>>> The proposals above are all proprietary crap and in 20-30 years from now
>>>>>> nobody can open this digital mortuary.
>>>>>
>>>>> OpenOffice, LibreOffice, NeoOffice, and so on suffer from the GIMP Problem:
>>>>> they are clunky, annoying, and poorly designed. MS Office is no prize, but
>>>>> OO/LO/NO are worse. Pages and Keynote are well-designed. I decline to use
>>>>> poorly-designed stuff just because it’s open-source.
>>>>
>>>> That is your opinion. I think and experience the opposite.
>>>
>>> Seriously?! Am a fan all things open source, but LO simply cannot compete
>>> in UI and functionality. Impress in particular is embarrassingly bad.
>>
>> I hardly ever use presentation programs. Usually they are the worst
>> piece of software that exist.
>
> I give presentations on a weekly basis, often more, so powerpoint is
> probably my most application after email.

I'm so sorry.

Don't ever try Keynote, it'll ruin you for Powerpoint forever.

Cheers - Jaimie
--
"I'd tried caffeine a few times; it made me believe I was
focused and energetic, but it turned my judgment to shit.
Widespread use of caffeine explains a lot about the
twentieth century." - "Distress", Greg Egan

Jaimie Vandenbergh <jaimie@usually.sessile.org> wrote:
> On 9 Mar 2023 at 13:18:50 GMT, "Chris" <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:
>>> Am 08.03.23 um 23:59 schrieb Chris:
>>>> Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:
>>>>> Am 08.03.23 um 05:00 schrieb WolfFan:
>>>>>> On Mar 7, 2023, Joerg Lorenz wrote
>>>>>>> For Christ's sake use well documented Open Source formats and software!
>>>>>>> The proposals above are all proprietary crap and in 20-30 years from now
>>>>>>> nobody can open this digital mortuary.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> OpenOffice, LibreOffice, NeoOffice, and so on suffer from the GIMP Problem:
>>>>>> they are clunky, annoying, and poorly designed. MS Office is no prize, but
>>>>>> OO/LO/NO are worse. Pages and Keynote are well-designed. I decline to use
>>>>>> poorly-designed stuff just because it’s open-source.
>>>>>
>>>>> That is your opinion. I think and experience the opposite.
>>>>
>>>> Seriously?! Am a fan all things open source, but LO simply cannot compete
>>>> in UI and functionality. Impress in particular is embarrassingly bad.
>>>
>>> I hardly ever use presentation programs. Usually they are the worst
>>> piece of software that exist.
>>
>> I give presentations on a weekly basis, often more, so powerpoint is
>> probably my most application after email.
>
> I'm so sorry.
>
> Don't ever try Keynote, it'll ruin you for Powerpoint forever.

Yeah not going to happen. Need to be able to share slides with others.
Office files are simply the lowest common denominator.

On Mar 10, 2023, Chris wrote
(in article <tuekvb$1s8jm$1@dont-email.me>):

> Jaimie Vandenbergh<jaimie@usually.sessile.org> wrote:
> > On 9 Mar 2023 at 13:18:50 GMT, "Chris"<ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:
> > > > Am 08.03.23 um 23:59 schrieb Chris:
> > > > > Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:
> > > > > > Am 08.03.23 um 05:00 schrieb WolfFan:
> > > > > > > On Mar 7, 2023, Joerg Lorenz wrote
> > > > > > > > For Christ's sake use well documented Open Source formats and
> > > > > > > > software!
> > > > > > > > The proposals above are all proprietary crap and in 20-30 years from
> > > > > > > > now
> > > > > > > > nobody can open this digital mortuary.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > OpenOffice, LibreOffice, NeoOffice, and so on suffer from the GIMP
> > > > > > > Problem:
> > > > > > > they are clunky, annoying, and poorly designed. MS Office is no prize,
> > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > OO/LO/NO are worse. Pages and Keynote are well-designed. I decline to
> > > > > > > use
> > > > > > > poorly-designed stuff just because it’s open-source.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > That is your opinion. I think and experience the opposite.
> > > > >
> > > > > Seriously?! Am a fan all things open source, but LO simply cannot compete
> > > > > in UI and functionality. Impress in particular is embarrassingly bad.
> > > >
> > > > I hardly ever use presentation programs. Usually they are the worst
> > > > piece of software that exist.
> > >
> > > I give presentations on a weekly basis, often more, so powerpoint is
> > > probably my most application after email.
> >
> > I'm so sorry.
> >
> > Don't ever try Keynote, it'll ruin you for Powerpoint forever.
>
> Yeah not going to happen. Need to be able to share slides with others.
> Office files are simply the lowest common denominator.

Keynote exports to PowerPoint. They can both use each other’s themes.

On 10 Mar 2023 at 07:07:23 GMT, "Chris" <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote:

> Jaimie Vandenbergh <jaimie@usually.sessile.org> wrote:
>> On 9 Mar 2023 at 13:18:50 GMT, "Chris" <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:
>>>> Am 08.03.23 um 23:59 schrieb Chris:
>>>>> Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:
>>>>>> Am 08.03.23 um 05:00 schrieb WolfFan:
>>>>>>> On Mar 7, 2023, Joerg Lorenz wrote
>>>>>>>> For Christ's sake use well documented Open Source formats and software!
>>>>>>>> The proposals above are all proprietary crap and in 20-30 years from now
>>>>>>>> nobody can open this digital mortuary.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> OpenOffice, LibreOffice, NeoOffice, and so on suffer from the GIMP Problem:
>>>>>>> they are clunky, annoying, and poorly designed. MS Office is no prize, but
>>>>>>> OO/LO/NO are worse. Pages and Keynote are well-designed. I decline to use
>>>>>>> poorly-designed stuff just because it’s open-source.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That is your opinion. I think and experience the opposite.
>>>>>
>>>>> Seriously?! Am a fan all things open source, but LO simply cannot compete
>>>>> in UI and functionality. Impress in particular is embarrassingly bad.
>>>>
>>>> I hardly ever use presentation programs. Usually they are the worst
>>>> piece of software that exist.
>>>
>>> I give presentations on a weekly basis, often more, so powerpoint is
>>> probably my most application after email.
>>
>> I'm so sorry.
>>
>> Don't ever try Keynote, it'll ruin you for Powerpoint forever.
>
> Yeah not going to happen. Need to be able to share slides with others.
> Office files are simply the lowest common denominator.

And oh so, so, *so* low.

Cheers - Jaimie
--
When one door closes another door opens; but we so often
look so long and so regretfully upon the closed door, that
we do not see the ones which open for us.
- Alexander Graham Bell

On Tuesday, 7 March 2023 at 13:52:33 UTC, Mark wrote:
> On 2023-03-07 11:10:41 +0000, Alan B said:
>
> > Can’t say this news particularly excites me ;-)
> >
> > <https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/t5/outlook-blog/outlook-mac-for-all/ba-p/3757787>
> >
> >
> > Now if Word and Excel were …. but then there’s always LibreOffice.
> Re. Word - there's also <https://bean-osx.com/Bean.html> Not sure how
> compatible it is if you're exchcnaging docs with Word users, but it's
> been around a long time.
> --
> Cheers ... Mark

I quite like googles spreadsheet. Very convenient for general stuff I do and easy to share.
I use excel as it's free at work and I quite like it.
I tolerate word for basic stuff.

I use numbers at home for very basic stuff but don't really like it.

I don't use presentation software

Pretty much have to use outlook for email at work.
But use gmail and apple mail for private email.

Jaimie Vandenbergh <jaimie@usually.sessile.org> wrote:
> On 10 Mar 2023 at 07:07:23 GMT, "Chris" <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Jaimie Vandenbergh <jaimie@usually.sessile.org> wrote:
>>> On 9 Mar 2023 at 13:18:50 GMT, "Chris" <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:
>>>>> Am 08.03.23 um 23:59 schrieb Chris:
>>>>>> Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:
>>>>>>> Am 08.03.23 um 05:00 schrieb WolfFan:
>>>>>>>> On Mar 7, 2023, Joerg Lorenz wrote
>>>>>>>>> For Christ's sake use well documented Open Source formats and software!
>>>>>>>>> The proposals above are all proprietary crap and in 20-30 years from now
>>>>>>>>> nobody can open this digital mortuary.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> OpenOffice, LibreOffice, NeoOffice, and so on suffer from the GIMP Problem:
>>>>>>>> they are clunky, annoying, and poorly designed. MS Office is no prize, but
>>>>>>>> OO/LO/NO are worse. Pages and Keynote are well-designed. I decline to use
>>>>>>>> poorly-designed stuff just because it’s open-source.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That is your opinion. I think and experience the opposite.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Seriously?! Am a fan all things open source, but LO simply cannot compete
>>>>>> in UI and functionality. Impress in particular is embarrassingly bad.
>>>>>
>>>>> I hardly ever use presentation programs. Usually they are the worst
>>>>> piece of software that exist.
>>>>
>>>> I give presentations on a weekly basis, often more, so powerpoint is
>>>> probably my most application after email.
>>>
>>> I'm so sorry.
>>>
>>> Don't ever try Keynote, it'll ruin you for Powerpoint forever.
>>
>> Yeah not going to happen. Need to be able to share slides with others.
>> Office files are simply the lowest common denominator.
>
> And oh so, so, *so* low.

Not claiming otherwise ;) Although Office is better than it used to be and
MS have made useful improvements rather than just more and more features
that one person in Redmond thought was a good idea.

WolfFan <akwolffan@zoho.com> wrote:
> On Mar 10, 2023, Chris wrote
> (in article <tuekvb$1s8jm$1@dont-email.me>):
>
>> Jaimie Vandenbergh<jaimie@usually.sessile.org> wrote:
>>> On 9 Mar 2023 at 13:18:50 GMT, "Chris"<ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:
>>>>> Am 08.03.23 um 23:59 schrieb Chris:
>>>>>> Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:
>>>>>>> Am 08.03.23 um 05:00 schrieb WolfFan:
>>>>>>>> On Mar 7, 2023, Joerg Lorenz wrote
>>>>>>>>> For Christ's sake use well documented Open Source formats and
>>>>>>>>> software!
>>>>>>>>> The proposals above are all proprietary crap and in 20-30 years from
>>>>>>>>> now
>>>>>>>>> nobody can open this digital mortuary.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> OpenOffice, LibreOffice, NeoOffice, and so on suffer from the GIMP
>>>>>>>> Problem:
>>>>>>>> they are clunky, annoying, and poorly designed. MS Office is no prize,
>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>> OO/LO/NO are worse. Pages and Keynote are well-designed. I decline to
>>>>>>>> use
>>>>>>>> poorly-designed stuff just because it’s open-source.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That is your opinion. I think and experience the opposite.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Seriously?! Am a fan all things open source, but LO simply cannot compete
>>>>>> in UI and functionality. Impress in particular is embarrassingly bad.
>>>>>
>>>>> I hardly ever use presentation programs. Usually they are the worst
>>>>> piece of software that exist.
>>>>
>>>> I give presentations on a weekly basis, often more, so powerpoint is
>>>> probably my most application after email.
>>>
>>> I'm so sorry.
>>>
>>> Don't ever try Keynote, it'll ruin you for Powerpoint forever.
>>
>> Yeah not going to happen. Need to be able to share slides with others.
>> Office files are simply the lowest common denominator.
>
> Keynote exports to PowerPoint. They can both use each other’s themes.

So does LO. It never goes well.

Am 10.03.23 um 08:07 schrieb Chris:
> Jaimie Vandenbergh <jaimie@usually.sessile.org> wrote:
>> I'm so sorry.
>>
>> Don't ever try Keynote, it'll ruin you for Powerpoint forever.
>
> Yeah not going to happen. Need to be able to share slides with others.
> Office files are simply the lowest common denominator.

Nope. LO goes far beyond that and masters all relevant file-formats.

--
Gutta cavat lapidem (Ovid)

Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:
> Am 10.03.23 um 08:07 schrieb Chris:
>> Jaimie Vandenbergh <jaimie@usually.sessile.org> wrote:
>>> I'm so sorry.
>>>
>>> Don't ever try Keynote, it'll ruin you for Powerpoint forever.
>>
>> Yeah not going to happen. Need to be able to share slides with others.
>> Office files are simply the lowest common denominator.
>
> Nope. LO goes far beyond that and masters all relevant file-formats.

Obviously you've never tried doing two-way exchanging of files between LO
and Office. Things get horribly mangled.

Am 10.03.23 um 17:59 schrieb Chris:
> Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:
>> Am 10.03.23 um 08:07 schrieb Chris:
>>> Jaimie Vandenbergh <jaimie@usually.sessile.org> wrote:
>>>> I'm so sorry.
>>>>
>>>> Don't ever try Keynote, it'll ruin you for Powerpoint forever.
>>>
>>> Yeah not going to happen. Need to be able to share slides with others.
>>> Office files are simply the lowest common denominator.
>>
>> Nope. LO goes far beyond that and masters all relevant file-formats.
>
> Obviously you've never tried doing two-way exchanging of files between LO
> and Office. Things get horribly mangled.

I did over more than a decade. Business documents notabene.

--
Gutta cavat lapidem (Ovid)

Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:
> Am 10.03.23 um 17:59 schrieb Chris:
>> Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:
>>> Am 10.03.23 um 08:07 schrieb Chris:
>>>> Jaimie Vandenbergh <jaimie@usually.sessile.org> wrote:
>>>>> I'm so sorry.
>>>>>
>>>>> Don't ever try Keynote, it'll ruin you for Powerpoint forever.
>>>>
>>>> Yeah not going to happen. Need to be able to share slides with others.
>>>> Office files are simply the lowest common denominator.
>>>
>>> Nope. LO goes far beyond that and masters all relevant file-formats.
>>
>> Obviously you've never tried doing two-way exchanging of files between LO
>> and Office. Things get horribly mangled.
>
> I did over more than a decade. Business documents notabene.

Sure. Exempli gratia.

Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sara Merriman <saramerriman@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 7 Mar 2023 at 11:10:41 GMT, "Alan B" <alanrichardbarker@gmail.com.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Can’t say this news particularly excites me ;-)
>>>
>>> <https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/t5/outlook-blog/outlook-mac-for-all/ba-p/3757787>
>>>
>>> Now if Word and Excel were …. but then there’s always LibreOffice.
>>
>> Ugh from MS in the comments: "The new Outlook for Mac is free to use, and
>> ad-supported when using a non-licensed account."
>
> Also "new" Outlook is bad. It may look nice(r) but several things are
> missing. I had to go back.

I wonder why MS even call their Mac app Outlook as it has major differences
from the Windows version.

<https://www.stellarinfo.com/blog/outlook-for-windows-vs-outlook-for-mac/>

So much for cross-platform compatibility.

--
Cheers, Alan

Am 11.03.23 um 11:55 schrieb Alan B:
> Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Also "new" Outlook is bad. It may look nice(r) but several things are
>> missing. I had to go back.
>
> I wonder why MS even call their Mac app Outlook as it has major differences
> from the Windows version.
>
> <https://www.stellarinfo.com/blog/outlook-for-windows-vs-outlook-for-mac/>
>
> So much for cross-platform compatibility.

Mozilla/Thunderbird is absolutely capable to do exactly that over three
platforms: Identical features and identical look.

--
Gutta cavat lapidem (Ovid)

Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:
> Am 11.03.23 um 11:55 schrieb Alan B:
>> Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Also "new" Outlook is bad. It may look nice(r) but several things are
>>> missing. I had to go back.
>>
>> I wonder why MS even call their Mac app Outlook as it has major differences
>> from the Windows version.
>>
>> <https://www.stellarinfo.com/blog/outlook-for-windows-vs-outlook-for-mac/>
>>
>> So much for cross-platform compatibility.
>
> Mozilla/Thunderbird is absolutely capable to do exactly that over three
> platforms: Identical features and identical look.

There are several cross platform clients. For instance I tried BlueMail
sometime ago but decided not to bother - Sadly I can’t remember why!

--
Cheers, Alan