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aus+uk / uk.rec.gardening / Buddleja, buddleia, or buddle bush?

SubjectAuthor
* Buddleja, buddleia, or buddle bush?Bill Davy
`* Re: Buddleja, buddleia, or buddle bush?Chris Hogg
 `* Re: Buddleja, buddleia, or buddle bush?Nick Maclaren
  +* Re: Buddleja, buddleia, or buddle bush?Another John
  |`- Re: Buddleja, buddleia, or buddle bush?The Natural Philosopher
  +- Re: Buddleja, buddleia, or buddle bush?The Natural Philosopher
  `* Re: Buddleja, buddleia, or buddle bush?Martin Brown
   +* Re: Buddleja, buddleia, or buddle bush?Nick Maclaren
   |+- Re: Buddleja, buddleia, or buddle bush?Nick Maclaren
   |`* Re: Buddleja, buddleia, or buddle bush?Jeff Layman
   | `* Re: Buddleja, buddleia, or buddle bush?Nick Maclaren
   |  +- Re: Buddleja, buddleia, or buddle bush?The Natural Philosopher
   |  `- Re: Buddleja, buddleia, or buddle bush?Jeff Layman
   `* Re: Buddleja, buddleia, or buddle bush?Stewart Robert Hinsley
    `- Re: Buddleja, buddleia, or buddle bush?The Natural Philosopher

1
Buddleja, buddleia, or buddle bush?

<ir5ecsF4crgU1@mid.individual.net>

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From: Bil...@XchelSys.co.uk (Bill Davy)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.gardening
Subject: Buddleja, buddleia, or buddle bush?
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 08:51:56 +0100
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 by: Bill Davy - Fri, 24 Sep 2021 07:51 UTC

I came across a “buddle bush” that was alive with butterflies in a book
set in the Fens by Barbara Vine (so English and a careful writer, well
edited). I can find no trace of a buddle bush, but when I put in
buddleia in a search engine (Google), I found there seems to be another
spelling, buddleja.

Is it normally buddleja (1,470,000 results) or buddleia (2,210,000)?
RHS prefers the former but it is not in the MS Word dictionary.

Is buddle bush a dialect term, wrong, or what?

Personally, I shall continue to use buddleia.

Bill

Re: Buddleja, buddleia, or buddle bush?

<hh1rkgdh52ee9pmbdjv8phkdr2cmp8lhvj@4ax.com>

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From: me...@privacy.net (Chris Hogg)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.gardening
Subject: Re: Buddleja, buddleia, or buddle bush?
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 09:14:36 +0100
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 by: Chris Hogg - Fri, 24 Sep 2021 08:14 UTC

On Fri, 24 Sep 2021 08:51:56 +0100, Bill Davy <Bill@XchelSys.co.uk>
wrote:

>I came across a “buddle bush” that was alive with butterflies in a book
>set in the Fens by Barbara Vine (so English and a careful writer, well
>edited). I can find no trace of a buddle bush, but when I put in
>buddleia in a search engine (Google), I found there seems to be another
>spelling, buddleja.
>
>Is it normally buddleja (1,470,000 results) or buddleia (2,210,000)?
>RHS prefers the former but it is not in the MS Word dictionary.
>
>Is buddle bush a dialect term, wrong, or what?
>
>Personally, I shall continue to use buddleia.
>
>Bill

Blame Linnaeus! The formally correct spelling is with a 'j', but
pronouncing it as if it were a 'y'. It is certainly wrong to pronounce
it as a 'j'. This may explain all, or not, as the case may be!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddleja#Nomenclature

--
Chris

Gardening in West Cornwall, very mild, sheltered
from the West, but open to the North and East.

Re: Buddleja, buddleia, or buddle bush?

<sik2vu$f7r$1@dont-email.me>

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From: nmm...@wheeler.UUCP (Nick Maclaren)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.gardening
Subject: Re: Buddleja, buddleia, or buddle bush?
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 08:41:35 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: Old Fogies Society
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 by: Nick Maclaren - Fri, 24 Sep 2021 08:41 UTC

In article <hh1rkgdh52ee9pmbdjv8phkdr2cmp8lhvj@4ax.com>,
Chris Hogg <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>On Fri, 24 Sep 2021 08:51:56 +0100, Bill Davy <Bill@XchelSys.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>I came across a 'buddle bush' that was alive with butterflies in a book
>>set in the Fens by Barbara Vine (so English and a careful writer, well
>>edited). I can find no trace of a buddle bush, but when I put in
>>buddleia in a search engine (Google), I found there seems to be another
>>spelling, buddleja.
>>
>>Is it normally buddleja (1,470,000 results) or buddleia (2,210,000)?
>>RHS prefers the former but it is not in the MS Word dictionary.
>>
>>Is buddle bush a dialect term, wrong, or what?
>>
>>Personally, I shall continue to use buddleia.
>
>Blame Linnaeus! The formally correct spelling is with a 'j', but
>pronouncing it as if it were a 'y'. It is certainly wrong to pronounce
>it as a 'j'. This may explain all, or not, as the case may be!
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddleja#Nomenclature

Er, not quite. The current dogma by people who claim to have absolute
ownership of names may be buddleja, but buddleia was and is the name
used by people who use binomial names as they were intended to be used;
i.e. for identification. The frequent, dogmatic, gratuitous and often
harmful renaming by that bunch of loons has caused and is causing a
great deal of confusion.

English is defined by its users; I haven't heard 'buddle bush', but we
often use 'buddle' as a verb, and it's a perfectly good name. I use
'Buddleia' as the species name.

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Re: Buddleja, buddleia, or buddle bush?

<lalaw44-FF05FF.10150124092021@201-92-171-81.dsl.telesp.net.br>

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From: lala...@hotmail.com (Another John)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.gardening
Subject: Re: Buddleja, buddleia, or buddle bush?
References: <ir5ecsF4crgU1@mid.individual.net> <hh1rkgdh52ee9pmbdjv8phkdr2cmp8lhvj@4ax.com> <sik2vu$f7r$1@dont-email.me>
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 by: Another John - Fri, 24 Sep 2021 09:15 UTC

In article <sik2vu$f7r$1@dont-email.me>,
nmm@wheeler.UUCP (Nick Maclaren) wrote:

> In article <hh1rkgdh52ee9pmbdjv8phkdr2cmp8lhvj@4ax.com>,
> Chris Hogg <me@privacy.net> wrote:
> >On Fri, 24 Sep 2021 08:51:56 +0100, Bill Davy <Bill@XchelSys.co.uk>
> >wrote:
> >
> >>I came across a 'buddle bush' that was alive with butterflies in a book
> >>set in the Fens by Barbara Vine (so English and a careful writer, well
> >>edited). I can find no trace of a buddle bush, but when I put in
> >>buddleia in a search engine (Google), I found there seems to be another
> >>spelling, buddleja.
> >>
> >>Is it normally buddleja (1,470,000 results) or buddleia (2,210,000)?
> >>RHS prefers the former but it is not in the MS Word dictionary.
> >>
> >>Is buddle bush a dialect term, wrong, or what?
> >>
> >>Personally, I shall continue to use buddleia.
> >
> >Blame Linnaeus! The formally correct spelling is with a 'j', but
> >pronouncing it as if it were a 'y'. It is certainly wrong to pronounce
> >it as a 'j'. This may explain all, or not, as the case may be!
> >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddleja#Nomenclature
>
> Er, not quite. The current dogma by people who claim to have absolute
> ownership of names may be buddleja, but buddleia was and is the name
> used by people who use binomial names as they were intended to be used;
> i.e. for identification. The frequent, dogmatic, gratuitous and often
> harmful renaming by that bunch of loons has caused and is causing a
> great deal of confusion.
>
> English is defined by its users; I haven't heard 'buddle bush', but we
> often use 'buddle' as a verb, and it's a perfectly good name. I use
> 'Buddleia' as the species name.

With you 100% Nick. The official organisations tend to be very
'precious' about their usages and pronouncements (the RSPB is another
one like the RHS).

To some extent, the internet has made things worse: people who know
nothing[1] about a subject look it up, find a name, or a "fact", start
using that, and in some cases use it as grounds for bossing others, who
know even less.

Pretty soon, such things become what I call "an Internet Fact" i.e.
something which may, or _may not_, be true, but which gets more hits
than other opinions when you google it.

I have a theory that as the internet becomes more powerful, the
population becomes more ignorant: they look things up, get an answer,
and are satisfied. They don't cross-check, and very often they are not
well-enough informed to doubt an answer, or wonder if their own question
has been misunderstood by google ('google' in this sense meaning the AI
of the internet). They are confusing information with education.[2]

Returning to the original subject: "buddleja" is obviously the Teutonic
spelling of "buddleia" - the Teutonic languages do not (or just barely)
have the letter "y". A Teuton (German, Swede, whatever) would naturally
pronounce "buddleia" "bud-lye-a", hence the Linnaeus spelling (imho),
which produces the correct pronunciation in a Teutonic language.

"Thank you for listening ... if you have." as Laurie Taylor used to say.

2p
John

[1] I'm not being pejorative, but literal. E.g I know nothing whatever
about fishing; or tennis; or electronics.

[2] The perfect example of "Internet Facts". We're both gardeners, but
my wife is intensely interested in plants. She recently acquired one of
those apps which tells you what a plant is (Picture This I think it's
called). We enthusiastically applied it to a particular mystery plant,
and "Ahhhh! THAT's what it is!!" Then we checked another plant or two,
and we began to realise that the information it was providing was
actually an opinion, not a fact: sometimes it's right, but just as often
it's wrong. Or rather, the opinion is wrong. What's worse: I think most
of these apps are American: so you get British people learning American
flora :-D
It's _only_ because we are gardeners, that we were able to come to this
conclusion.

Re: Buddleja, buddleia, or buddle bush?

<sik9ep$86l$1@dont-email.me>

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.gardening
Subject: Re: Buddleja, buddleia, or buddle bush?
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 11:31:53 +0100
Organization: A little, after lunch
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Fri, 24 Sep 2021 10:31 UTC

On 24/09/2021 09:41, Nick Maclaren wrote:
> I use
> 'Buddleia' as the species name.

And 'Butterfly bush' as the common name

--
If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will
eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such
time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic
and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally
important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for
the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the
truth is the greatest enemy of the State.

Joseph Goebbels

Re: Buddleja, buddleia, or buddle bush?

<sik9j1$86l$2@dont-email.me>

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.gardening
Subject: Re: Buddleja, buddleia, or buddle bush?
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 11:34:09 +0100
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Fri, 24 Sep 2021 10:34 UTC

On 24/09/2021 10:15, Another John wrote:
> we began to realise that the information it was providing was
> actually an opinion, not a fact: sometimes it's right, but just as often
> it's wrong. Or rather, the opinion is wrong. What's worse: I think most
> of these apps are American: so you get British people learning American
> flora:-D
> It's_only_ because we are gardeners, that we were able to come to this
> conclusion.

"The media can be relied upon to pass you the truth, except in those
areas in which you are already knowledgeable"

--
The biggest threat to humanity comes from socialism, which has utterly
diverted our attention away from what really matters to our existential
survival, to indulging in navel gazing and faux moral investigations
into what the world ought to be, whilst we fail utterly to deal with
what it actually is.

Re: Buddleja, buddleia, or buddle bush?

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From: '''newsp...@nonad.co.uk (Martin Brown)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.gardening
Subject: Re: Buddleja, buddleia, or buddle bush?
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 12:51:37 +0100
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 by: Martin Brown - Fri, 24 Sep 2021 11:51 UTC

On 24/09/2021 09:41, Nick Maclaren wrote:
> In article <hh1rkgdh52ee9pmbdjv8phkdr2cmp8lhvj@4ax.com>,
> Chris Hogg <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>> On Fri, 24 Sep 2021 08:51:56 +0100, Bill Davy <Bill@XchelSys.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I came across a 'buddle bush' that was alive with butterflies in a book
>>> set in the Fens by Barbara Vine (so English and a careful writer, well
>>> edited). I can find no trace of a buddle bush, but when I put in
>>> buddleia in a search engine (Google), I found there seems to be another
>>> spelling, buddleja.
>>>
>>> Is it normally buddleja (1,470,000 results) or buddleia (2,210,000)?
>>> RHS prefers the former but it is not in the MS Word dictionary.
>>>
>>> Is buddle bush a dialect term, wrong, or what?
>>>
>>> Personally, I shall continue to use buddleia.
>>
>> Blame Linnaeus! The formally correct spelling is with a 'j', but
>> pronouncing it as if it were a 'y'. It is certainly wrong to pronounce
>> it as a 'j'. This may explain all, or not, as the case may be!
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddleja#Nomenclature
>
> Er, not quite. The current dogma by people who claim to have absolute
> ownership of names may be buddleja, but buddleia was and is the name
> used by people who use binomial names as they were intended to be used;
> i.e. for identification. The frequent, dogmatic, gratuitous and often
> harmful renaming by that bunch of loons has caused and is causing a
> great deal of confusion.
>
> English is defined by its users; I haven't heard 'buddle bush', but we
> often use 'buddle' as a verb, and it's a perfectly good name. I use
> 'Buddleia' as the species name.

FWIW so do I.

But that is just a popular respelling of the original Buddleja by the
English speaking world because they prefer to remain ignorant of the
pronunciation of "j" in European languages like Flemish, Polish and
Swedish. Linnaeus was a Swede so it isn't surprising he used "j" as a
vowel that sounds roughly like a "y".

It isn't so different from the old English use of "f" for soft "s".

English is now *the* lingua franca. Even botanists no longer have to
describe new species in Latin any more (nor for the past decade).

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/culturing-science/botanists-finally-ditch-latin-and-paper-enter-21st-century/

Splitters and lumpers are forever moving things around. It has got worse
or better depending on your point of view now that DNA analysis can be
used to determine which species merely look alike but *are* unrelated.
Under harsh environments you can get convergent evolution to solutions
that look very much alike but in very different plant species.

Cactaceae in the New World and succulent Euphorbiaceae in the Old World
for example. The latter tend to have chemical weapons as well as spines.
There are a few species named as looks like the other one discovered first.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

Re: Buddleja, buddleia, or buddle bush?

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From: nmm...@wheeler.UUCP (Nick Maclaren)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.gardening
Subject: Re: Buddleja, buddleia, or buddle bush?
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 15:35:31 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: Old Fogies Society
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 by: Nick Maclaren - Fri, 24 Sep 2021 15:35 UTC

In article <sike4a$1767$2@gioia.aioe.org>,
Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
>
>But that is just a popular respelling of the original Buddleja by the
>English speaking world because they prefer to remain ignorant of the
>pronunciation of "j" in European languages like Flemish, Polish and
>Swedish. Linnaeus was a Swede so it isn't surprising he used "j" as a
>vowel that sounds roughly like a "y".

Not really.

They may have been the reason, or it may have been something else, but
'Buddleia' was THE accepted spelling until very recently. The change
was forced through by the dogmatists who said that a century or more
of usage was irrelevant compared to the purity of reverting to
Linnaeus's original spelling.

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Re: Buddleja, buddleia, or buddle bush?

<sikucl$7ct$1@dont-email.me>

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From: nmm...@wheeler.UUCP (Nick Maclaren)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.gardening
Subject: Re: Buddleja, buddleia, or buddle bush?
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 16:29:09 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: Old Fogies Society
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 by: Nick Maclaren - Fri, 24 Sep 2021 16:29 UTC

In article <sikr83$f66$1@dont-email.me>, Nick Maclaren <nmm1@cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>In article <sike4a$1767$2@gioia.aioe.org>,
>Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>But that is just a popular respelling of the original Buddleja by the
>>English speaking world because they prefer to remain ignorant of the
>>pronunciation of "j" in European languages like Flemish, Polish and
>>Swedish. Linnaeus was a Swede so it isn't surprising he used "j" as a
>>vowel that sounds roughly like a "y".
>
>Not really.
>
>They may have been the reason, or it may have been something else, but
>'Buddleia' was THE accepted spelling until very recently. The change
>was forced through by the dogmatists who said that a century or more
>of usage was irrelevant compared to the purity of reverting to
>Linnaeus's original spelling.

Oops. I am dopey, for irrelevant reasons, and not thinking at my usual
speed.

The reason it was spelled 'Buddleia' was almost certainly that Latin
(the language of botany until recently) does not have separate 'i'
and 'j' characters so, if you spell it 'Buddleja', you should also
refer to 'Pjcea' and 'Pjnus'.

The whole thing is a story of one set of dogmatists conquering another
and forcing their dogmas on the world.

Oh, and to another remark, the long 's' was not 'f' and was not soft.
The rules were weird, and (if I recall) were not always followed:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_s#Rules

Similarly, the character used to represent 'th' was not 'y' but
thorn, which looks vaguely similar. Ye Olde Bullshit Merchant is
pretentious crap.

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Re: Buddleja, buddleia, or buddle bush?

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From: jmlay...@invalid.invalid (Jeff Layman)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.gardening
Subject: Re: Buddleja, buddleia, or buddle bush?
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 18:55:23 +0100
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 by: Jeff Layman - Fri, 24 Sep 2021 17:55 UTC

On 24/09/2021 16:35, Nick Maclaren wrote:
> In article <sike4a$1767$2@gioia.aioe.org>,
> Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> But that is just a popular respelling of the original Buddleja by the
>> English speaking world because they prefer to remain ignorant of the
>> pronunciation of "j" in European languages like Flemish, Polish and
>> Swedish. Linnaeus was a Swede so it isn't surprising he used "j" as a
>> vowel that sounds roughly like a "y".
>
> Not really.
>
> They may have been the reason, or it may have been something else, but
> 'Buddleia' was THE accepted spelling until very recently. The change
> was forced through by the dogmatists who said that a century or more
> of usage was irrelevant compared to the purity of reverting to
> Linnaeus's original spelling.

From <https://treesandshrubsonline.org/articles/buddleia/>:

"Linnaeus originally spelt the generic name as ‘Buddleja’, but until
quite recently the spelling was almost universally amended to ‘Buddleia’
(or by some botanists to ‘Buddlea’ – the spelling that Linnaeus should
in fact have used). The letter ‘j’ in Buddleja is simply a typographic
variant of ‘i’, also seen in old texts in the Latin genitive singular of
nouns in -ius, e.g., ‘filij’ or in lower case Roman numerals, e.g., xiij
for 13."

If you thought it couldn't get more confusing, it most certainly can!
From <https://treesandshrubsonline.org/articles/buddleja/> (note that
the "i" is now a "j"):

"Linnæus (1753) described the genus Buddleja based on a single species,
B. americana, named in honour of the Reverend Adam Buddle, the vicar of
Farmbridge (Essex, UK) and an amateur botanist. Eight variant spellings
have been used historically – Buddlea, Buddleia, Buddleja, Buddleya,
Budlæa, Budlea, Budleia, and Budleja. Buddleja, adopted by Linnæus, is
cited in the International Code of Botanical Nomenclature (Turland et
al. 2018), and is therefore the botanically correct spelling, however
the common name is often spelled Buddleia, as here."

--

Jeff

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From: nmm...@wheeler.UUCP (Nick Maclaren)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.gardening
Subject: Re: Buddleja, buddleia, or buddle bush?
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 18:21:22 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: Old Fogies Society
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 by: Nick Maclaren - Fri, 24 Sep 2021 18:21 UTC

In article <sil3eb$jl0$1@dont-email.me>,
Jeff Layman <jmlayman@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
> From <https://treesandshrubsonline.org/articles/buddleia/>:
>
>"Linnaeus originally spelt the generic name as 'Buddleja', but until
>quite recently the spelling was almost universally amended to 'Buddleia'
>(or by some botanists to 'Buddlea' - the spelling that Linnaeus should
>in fact have used). The letter 'j' in Buddleja is simply a typographic
>variant of 'i', also seen in old texts in the Latin genitive singular of
>nouns in -ius, e.g., 'filij' or in lower case Roman numerals, e.g., xiij
>for 13."

Just to add a bit more confusion, the use of 'j' to represent the
consonantal form of 'i' was introduced in the 16th century, and was
well-established by Linnaeus's time - in some contexts. But people were
generally taught classical Latin at school, and it was NOT used in that
(not even in the 1960s). So my conclusion is that the amendment was by
the Pure Latin dogmatists, and everyone followed them for over two
centuries, until they were conquered by the Pure Linnaeus dogmatists
very recently. No, I have no idea of the actual specification of
botanical Latin, nor do I care much. It was gratuitously confusing to
make the change, which is my objection.

A related issue is that I read about one plant, which was identified by
botanist A and given the name W.X, but was not properly described in
Latin (only in the botanist's language). The name became established,
and the name used fairly widely, but a much later botanist B described
it in Latin and called it Y.Z. So it was renamed as Y.Z.

You couldn't make it up.

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Re: Buddleja, buddleia, or buddle bush?

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From: {$new...@meden.demon.co.uk (Stewart Robert Hinsley)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.gardening
Subject: Re: Buddleja, buddleia, or buddle bush?
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 22:32:35 +0100
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 by: Stewart Robert Hinsl - Fri, 24 Sep 2021 21:32 UTC

On 24/09/2021 12:51, Martin Brown wrote:
>
> It isn't so different from the old English use of "f" for soft "s".

What was used for the soft "s" was a glyph known as a "long s". This is
an "s", not an "f".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_s

--
SRH

Re: Buddleja, buddleia, or buddle bush?

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.gardening
Subject: Re: Buddleja, buddleia, or buddle bush?
Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2021 10:01:56 +0100
Organization: A little, after lunch
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Sat, 25 Sep 2021 09:01 UTC

On 24/09/2021 19:21, Nick Maclaren wrote:

> A related issue is that I read about one plant, which was identified by
> botanist A and given the name W.X, but was not properly described in
> Latin (only in the botanist's language). The name became established,
> and the name used fairly widely, but a much later botanist B described
> it in Latin and called it Y.Z. So it was renamed as Y.Z.
>
> You couldn't make it up.
>
>
But they did. Make it up. All of it.
Dont even go near fungi where after years of calling it one complicated
latin name the shape of the spores etc. defines it to be part of a
completely different group so it acquires a totally different name.

It is all rooted in the common mistake of equating what something is,
with what it is called. Only in Harry Potter's world do words affect
reality.

--
Renewable energy: Expensive solutions that don't work to a problem that
doesn't exist instituted by self legalising protection rackets that
don't protect, masquerading as public servants who don't serve the public.

Re: Buddleja, buddleia, or buddle bush?

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.gardening
Subject: Re: Buddleja, buddleia, or buddle bush?
Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2021 10:07:39 +0100
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Sat, 25 Sep 2021 09:07 UTC

On 24/09/2021 22:32, Stewart Robert Hinsley wrote:
> On 24/09/2021 12:51, Martin Brown wrote:
>>
>> It isn't so different from the old English use of "f" for soft "s".
>
> What was used for the soft "s" was a glyph known as a "long s". This is
> an "s", not an "f".
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_s
>
ẜaſcinating!

--
“Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.”

H.L. Mencken, A Mencken Chrestomathy

Re: Buddleja, buddleia, or buddle bush?

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From: jmlay...@invalid.invalid (Jeff Layman)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.gardening
Subject: Re: Buddleja, buddleia, or buddle bush?
Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2021 11:27:21 +0100
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 by: Jeff Layman - Sat, 25 Sep 2021 10:27 UTC

On 24/09/2021 19:21, Nick Maclaren wrote:
> In article <sil3eb$jl0$1@dont-email.me>,
> Jeff Layman <jmlayman@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> From <https://treesandshrubsonline.org/articles/buddleia/>:
>>
>> "Linnaeus originally spelt the generic name as 'Buddleja', but until
>> quite recently the spelling was almost universally amended to 'Buddleia'
>> (or by some botanists to 'Buddlea' - the spelling that Linnaeus should
>> in fact have used). The letter 'j' in Buddleja is simply a typographic
>> variant of 'i', also seen in old texts in the Latin genitive singular of
>> nouns in -ius, e.g., 'filij' or in lower case Roman numerals, e.g., xiij
>> for 13."
>
> Just to add a bit more confusion, the use of 'j' to represent the
> consonantal form of 'i' was introduced in the 16th century, and was
> well-established by Linnaeus's time - in some contexts. But people were
> generally taught classical Latin at school, and it was NOT used in that
> (not even in the 1960s). So my conclusion is that the amendment was by
> the Pure Latin dogmatists, and everyone followed them for over two
> centuries, until they were conquered by the Pure Linnaeus dogmatists
> very recently. No, I have no idea of the actual specification of
> botanical Latin, nor do I care much. It was gratuitously confusing to
> make the change, which is my objection.
>
> A related issue is that I read about one plant, which was identified by
> botanist A and given the name W.X, but was not properly described in
> Latin (only in the botanist's language). The name became established,
> and the name used fairly widely, but a much later botanist B described
> it in Latin and called it Y.Z. So it was renamed as Y.Z.
>
> You couldn't make it up.

Rulez is rulez, innit?

Don't fret. Because of jobsworth taxonomists, Y.Z has probably been
renamed a dozen times to A.B, C.D, E.F, etc, and is no doubt now W.X!
What goes round comes round... :-))

--

Jeff

1
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