As expected, the all-new £419m Thameslink station opened today. Apparently
it's the first all-new mainline station in London in a decade, and has four
12-car platforms. Confusingly, it's not really aimed at visitors to Brent
Cross shopping centre, which is 20 minutes walk away, but at the major new
Brent Cross Town development.

Geoff's video: https://youtu.be/cdybq0_R_g4?si=6R9Zv1-Q5kK7x23B

It allseems quite impressive.

On 10.12.2023 23:37, Recliner wrote:
> As expected, the all-new £419m Thameslink station opened today. Apparently
> it's the first all-new mainline station in London in a decade, and has four
> 12-car platforms. Confusingly, it's not really aimed at visitors to Brent
> Cross shopping centre, which is 20 minutes walk away, but at the major new
> Brent Cross Town development.
>
> Geoff's video: https://youtu.be/cdybq0_R_g4?si=6R9Zv1-Q5kK7x23B
>
> It allseems quite impressive.

They must be picking some narrow definition of "all new mainline
station" to exclude eg Barking Riverside, which opened a year and a half
ago.

Robin

In message <ul6gh1$33ckg$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:16:33 on Mon, 11 Dec
2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>On 10.12.2023 23:37, Recliner wrote:

>> As expected, the all-new £419m Thameslink station opened today. Apparently
>> it's the first all-new mainline station in London in a decade, and has four
>> 12-car platforms. Confusingly, it's not really aimed at visitors to Brent
>> Cross shopping centre, which is 20 minutes walk away, but at the major new
>> Brent Cross Town development.

>> Geoff's video: https://youtu.be/cdybq0_R_g4?si=6R9Zv1-Q5kK7x23B
>> It allseems quite impressive.
>
>They must be picking some narrow definition of "all new mainline
>station" to exclude eg Barking Riverside, which opened a year and a
>half ago.

Which Main Line is that on? Not the GEML (which is the closest).
--
Roland Perry

Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
> On 10.12.2023 23:37, Recliner wrote:
>> As expected, the all-new £419m Thameslink station opened today. Apparently
>> it's the first all-new mainline station in London in a decade, and has four
>> 12-car platforms. Confusingly, it's not really aimed at visitors to Brent
>> Cross shopping centre, which is 20 minutes walk away, but at the major new
>> Brent Cross Town development.
>>
>> Geoff's video: https://youtu.be/cdybq0_R_g4?si=6R9Zv1-Q5kK7x23B
>>
>> It allseems quite impressive.
>
> They must be picking some narrow definition of "all new mainline
> station" to exclude eg Barking Riverside, which opened a year and a half
> ago.
>

I suppose that's just treated as a metro station.

In message <nyBdN.454$ogWb.392@fx14.ams1>, at 10:31:47 on Mon, 11 Dec
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>> On 10.12.2023 23:37, Recliner wrote:
>>> As expected, the all-new £419m Thameslink station opened today. Apparently
>>> it's the first all-new mainline station in London in a decade, and has four
>>> 12-car platforms. Confusingly, it's not really aimed at visitors to Brent
>>> Cross shopping centre, which is 20 minutes walk away, but at the major new
>>> Brent Cross Town development.
>>>
>>> Geoff's video: https://youtu.be/cdybq0_R_g4?si=6R9Zv1-Q5kK7x23B
>>>
>>> It allseems quite impressive.
>>
>> They must be picking some narrow definition of "all new mainline
>> station" to exclude eg Barking Riverside, which opened a year and a half
>> ago.
>
>I suppose that's just treated as a metro station.

Cue interminable debate on whether Overground is a metro, or a heavy
rail TOC.

--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <nyBdN.454$ogWb.392@fx14.ams1>, at 10:31:47 on Mon, 11 Dec
> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>> On 10.12.2023 23:37, Recliner wrote:
>>>> As expected, the all-new £419m Thameslink station opened today. Apparently
>>>> it's the first all-new mainline station in London in a decade, and has four
>>>> 12-car platforms. Confusingly, it's not really aimed at visitors to Brent
>>>> Cross shopping centre, which is 20 minutes walk away, but at the major new
>>>> Brent Cross Town development.
>>>>
>>>> Geoff's video: https://youtu.be/cdybq0_R_g4?si=6R9Zv1-Q5kK7x23B
>>>>
>>>> It allseems quite impressive.
>>>
>>> They must be picking some narrow definition of "all new mainline
>>> station" to exclude eg Barking Riverside, which opened a year and a half
>>> ago.
>>
>> I suppose that's just treated as a metro station.
>
> Cue interminable debate on whether Overground is a metro, or a heavy
> rail TOC.

Isn't it both? It's certainly heavy rail, but exclusively operates metro
services.

Am 11.12.2023 um 11:58 schrieb Recliner:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <nyBdN.454$ogWb.392@fx14.ams1>, at 10:31:47 on Mon, 11 Dec
>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>> On 10.12.2023 23:37, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> As expected, the all-new £419m Thameslink station opened today. Apparently
>>>>> it's the first all-new mainline station in London in a decade, and has four
>>>>> 12-car platforms. Confusingly, it's not really aimed at visitors to Brent
>>>>> Cross shopping centre, which is 20 minutes walk away, but at the major new
>>>>> Brent Cross Town development.
>>>>>
>>>>> Geoff's video: https://youtu.be/cdybq0_R_g4?si=6R9Zv1-Q5kK7x23B
>>>>>
>>>>> It allseems quite impressive.
>>>>
>>>> They must be picking some narrow definition of "all new mainline
>>>> station" to exclude eg Barking Riverside, which opened a year and a half
>>>> ago.
>>>
>>> I suppose that's just treated as a metro station.
>>
>> Cue interminable debate on whether Overground is a metro, or a heavy
>> rail TOC.
>
> Isn't it both? It's certainly heavy rail, but exclusively operates metro
> services.

My understanding was that the min distinction between 'Underground' and
'Metro' is that 'Metro' is heavy Rail while 'Underground' is light rail.

Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
> Am 11.12.2023 um 11:58 schrieb Recliner:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <nyBdN.454$ogWb.392@fx14.ams1>, at 10:31:47 on Mon, 11 Dec
>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 10.12.2023 23:37, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>> As expected, the all-new £419m Thameslink station opened today. Apparently
>>>>>> it's the first all-new mainline station in London in a decade, and has four
>>>>>> 12-car platforms. Confusingly, it's not really aimed at visitors to Brent
>>>>>> Cross shopping centre, which is 20 minutes walk away, but at the major new
>>>>>> Brent Cross Town development.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Geoff's video: https://youtu.be/cdybq0_R_g4?si=6R9Zv1-Q5kK7x23B
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It allseems quite impressive.
>>>>>
>>>>> They must be picking some narrow definition of "all new mainline
>>>>> station" to exclude eg Barking Riverside, which opened a year and a half
>>>>> ago.
>>>>
>>>> I suppose that's just treated as a metro station.
>>>
>>> Cue interminable debate on whether Overground is a metro, or a heavy
>>> rail TOC.
>>
>> Isn't it both? It's certainly heavy rail, but exclusively operates metro
>> services.
>
> My understanding was that the min distinction between 'Underground' and
> 'Metro' is that 'Metro' is heavy Rail while 'Underground' is light rail.

I'm not sure that U-Bahn vs S-Bahn distinction applies in the UK.

The LU subsurface lines are certainly heavy rail, and I think the Tube
lines are too. They're built just like the SSL trains, and are expected to
have the long life of a heavy rail train. In fact, the oldest regular
service trains running in the UK are the 1972TS, which may be expected to
have a 60 year life without a major rebuild. That's much longer than most
heavy rail trains.

The DLR trains have a much shorter life. The 1991 vintage DLR stock will be
retired next year, after just over 30 years service, which is pretty good
for light rail. For example, the original West Midlands Metro trams only
lasted 16 years.

On 11/12/2023 12:07, Recliner wrote:
> Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>> Am 11.12.2023 um 11:58 schrieb Recliner:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <nyBdN.454$ogWb.392@fx14.ams1>, at 10:31:47 on Mon, 11 Dec
>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On 10.12.2023 23:37, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>> As expected, the all-new £419m Thameslink station opened today. Apparently
>>>>>>> it's the first all-new mainline station in London in a decade, and has four
>>>>>>> 12-car platforms. Confusingly, it's not really aimed at visitors to Brent
>>>>>>> Cross shopping centre, which is 20 minutes walk away, but at the major new
>>>>>>> Brent Cross Town development.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Geoff's video: https://youtu.be/cdybq0_R_g4?si=6R9Zv1-Q5kK7x23B
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It allseems quite impressive.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They must be picking some narrow definition of "all new mainline
>>>>>> station" to exclude eg Barking Riverside, which opened a year and a half
>>>>>> ago.
>>>>>
>>>>> I suppose that's just treated as a metro station.
>>>>
>>>> Cue interminable debate on whether Overground is a metro, or a heavy
>>>> rail TOC.
>>>
>>> Isn't it both? It's certainly heavy rail, but exclusively operates metro
>>> services.
>>
>> My understanding was that the min distinction between 'Underground' and
>> 'Metro' is that 'Metro' is heavy Rail while 'Underground' is light rail.
>
> I'm not sure that U-Bahn vs S-Bahn distinction applies in the UK.
>
> The LU subsurface lines are certainly heavy rail, and I think the Tube
> lines are too. They're built just like the SSL trains, and are expected to
> have the long life of a heavy rail train. In fact, the oldest regular
> service trains running in the UK are the 1972TS, which may be expected to
> have a 60 year life without a major rebuild. That's much longer than most
> heavy rail trains.
>
> The DLR trains have a much shorter life. The 1991 vintage DLR stock will be
> retired next year, after just over 30 years service, which is pretty good
> for light rail. For example, the original West Midlands Metro trams only
> lasted 16 years.
>

I thought at the start of the thread the issue was "Main Line" vs
"mainline" as in Network Rail parlance[1] with Brent Cross West the
former (Midland Main Line) but Barking Riverside (only) the latter.

[1]"While a Main Line is a major route such as the ones mentioned
earlier, the mainline is essentially every part of the railway in
England, Wales and Scotland managed by us at Network Rail.

This excludes things like:

metros and other light rail systems
networks that are functionally separate from the rest of the
mainline railway and intended only for the operation of local, urban or
suburban passenger services
heritage, museum or tourist railways that operate on their own networks
privately owned infrastructure that exists solely for the use of
its owner for its own freight operations."

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On Mon, 11 Dec 2023 15:59:17 +0000
Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
>On 11/12/2023 12:07, Recliner wrote:
>> The LU subsurface lines are certainly heavy rail, and I think the Tube
>> lines are too. They're built just like the SSL trains, and are expected to
>> have the long life of a heavy rail train. In fact, the oldest regular
>> service trains running in the UK are the 1972TS, which may be expected to
>> have a 60 year life without a major rebuild. That's much longer than most
>> heavy rail trains.

Some of the older tube DM cars weigh almost 30 tons each which given their
size is quite a weight and about 75% of what a similar mainline car would
weigh.

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 11 Dec 2023 15:59:17 +0000
> Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
>> On 11/12/2023 12:07, Recliner wrote:
>>> The LU subsurface lines are certainly heavy rail, and I think the Tube
>>> lines are too. They're built just like the SSL trains, and are expected to
>>> have the long life of a heavy rail train. In fact, the oldest regular
>>> service trains running in the UK are the 1972TS, which may be expected to
>>> have a 60 year life without a major rebuild. That's much longer than most
>>> heavy rail trains.
>
> Some of the older tube DM cars weigh almost 30 tons each which given their
> size is quite a weight and about 75% of what a similar mainline car would
> weigh.

It would be interesting to compare the weight per length of, say, the
2009TS and S stock. They're both Bombardier Movia designs, built in the
same factory at roughly the same time. And would Aventras be much
different?

On Mon, 11 Dec 2023 16:21:35 GMT
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 11 Dec 2023 15:59:17 +0000
>> Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
>>> On 11/12/2023 12:07, Recliner wrote:
>>>> The LU subsurface lines are certainly heavy rail, and I think the Tube
>>>> lines are too. They're built just like the SSL trains, and are expected to
>>>> have the long life of a heavy rail train. In fact, the oldest regular
>>>> service trains running in the UK are the 1972TS, which may be expected to
>>>> have a 60 year life without a major rebuild. That's much longer than most
>>>> heavy rail trains.
>>
>> Some of the older tube DM cars weigh almost 30 tons each which given their
>> size is quite a weight and about 75% of what a similar mainline car would
>> weigh.
>
>It would be interesting to compare the weight per length of, say, the
>2009TS and S stock. They're both Bombardier Movia designs, built in the
>same factory at roughly the same time. And would Aventras be much
>different?

Wonkypedia says 197 tonnes for a 2009 stock train which is ~ 25 tonnes per car.
Doesnt give the weight for S stock but this:

https://foi.tfl.gov.uk/FOI-0158-2021/S%20Stock%20information%20sheet%20July%2020
10.pdf

says 242.6 tons (tonnes?) for an 8 car S stock which is only ~ 30 tons per car
so not a huge difference.

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 11 Dec 2023 16:21:35 GMT
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 11 Dec 2023 15:59:17 +0000
>>> Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
>>>> On 11/12/2023 12:07, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> The LU subsurface lines are certainly heavy rail, and I think the Tube
>>>>> lines are too. They're built just like the SSL trains, and are expected to
>>>>> have the long life of a heavy rail train. In fact, the oldest regular
>>>>> service trains running in the UK are the 1972TS, which may be expected to
>>>>> have a 60 year life without a major rebuild. That's much longer than most
>>>>> heavy rail trains.
>>>
>>> Some of the older tube DM cars weigh almost 30 tons each which given their
>>> size is quite a weight and about 75% of what a similar mainline car would
>>> weigh.
>>
>> It would be interesting to compare the weight per length of, say, the
>> 2009TS and S stock. They're both Bombardier Movia designs, built in the
>> same factory at roughly the same time. And would Aventras be much
>> different?
>
> Wonkypedia says 197 tonnes for a 2009 stock train which is ~ 25 tonnes per car.
> Doesnt give the weight for S stock but this:
>
> https://foi.tfl.gov.uk/FOI-0158-2021/S%20Stock%20information%20sheet%20July%2020
> 10.pdf
>
> says 242.6 tons (tonnes?) for an 8 car S stock which is only ~ 30 tons per car
> so not a huge difference.

And I think the S stock cars are longer, so the weight per metre may be
close.

On 11.12.2023 12:53, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> Am 11.12.2023 um 11:58 schrieb Recliner:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <nyBdN.454$ogWb.392@fx14.ams1>, at 10:31:47 on Mon, 11 Dec
>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 10.12.2023 23:37, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>> As expected, the all-new £419m Thameslink station opened today.
>>>>>> Apparently
>>>>>> it's the first all-new mainline station in London in a decade, and
>>>>>> has four
>>>>>> 12-car platforms. Confusingly, it's not really aimed at visitors
>>>>>> to Brent
>>>>>> Cross shopping centre, which is 20 minutes walk away, but at the
>>>>>> major new
>>>>>> Brent Cross Town development.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Geoff's video: https://youtu.be/cdybq0_R_g4?si=6R9Zv1-Q5kK7x23B
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It allseems quite impressive.
>>>>>
>>>>> They must be picking some narrow definition of "all new mainline
>>>>> station" to exclude eg Barking Riverside, which opened a year and a
>>>>> half
>>>>> ago.
>>>>
>>>> I suppose that's just treated as a metro station.
>>>
>>> Cue interminable debate on whether Overground is a metro, or a heavy
>>> rail TOC.
>>
>> Isn't it both?  It's certainly heavy rail, but exclusively operates metro
>> services.
>
> My understanding was that the min distinction between 'Underground' and
> 'Metro' is that 'Metro' is heavy Rail while 'Underground' is light rail.

The problem is there isn't a consistent distinction between heavy and
light rail. The term has been used for a variety of purposes over the
years, often inconsistently, for an inconsistent collection of railway
schemes, both proposed and realised. In the London context, the DLR was
proposed as "light rail" specifically in contrast with the earlier Fleet
line proposal to extend what became the Jubilee line east to serve the
Docklands area, with the implication that the Tube is not "light rail".

Robin

Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
> On 11.12.2023 12:53, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>> Am 11.12.2023 um 11:58 schrieb Recliner:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <nyBdN.454$ogWb.392@fx14.ams1>, at 10:31:47 on Mon, 11 Dec
>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On 10.12.2023 23:37, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>> As expected, the all-new £419m Thameslink station opened today.
>>>>>>> Apparently
>>>>>>> it's the first all-new mainline station in London in a decade, and
>>>>>>> has four
>>>>>>> 12-car platforms. Confusingly, it's not really aimed at visitors
>>>>>>> to Brent
>>>>>>> Cross shopping centre, which is 20 minutes walk away, but at the
>>>>>>> major new
>>>>>>> Brent Cross Town development.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Geoff's video: https://youtu.be/cdybq0_R_g4?si=6R9Zv1-Q5kK7x23B
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It allseems quite impressive.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They must be picking some narrow definition of "all new mainline
>>>>>> station" to exclude eg Barking Riverside, which opened a year and a
>>>>>> half
>>>>>> ago.
>>>>>
>>>>> I suppose that's just treated as a metro station.
>>>>
>>>> Cue interminable debate on whether Overground is a metro, or a heavy
>>>> rail TOC.
>>>
>>> Isn't it both?  It's certainly heavy rail, but exclusively operates metro
>>> services.
>>
>> My understanding was that the min distinction between 'Underground' and
>> 'Metro' is that 'Metro' is heavy Rail while 'Underground' is light rail.
>
> The problem is there isn't a consistent distinction between heavy and
> light rail. The term has been used for a variety of purposes over the
> years, often inconsistently, for an inconsistent collection of railway
> schemes, both proposed and realised. In the London context, the DLR was
> proposed as "light rail" specifically in contrast with the earlier Fleet
> line proposal to extend what became the Jubilee line east to serve the
> Docklands area, with the implication that the Tube is not "light rail".
>

Some more research let me compile this little table:

Weight (tonnes) Length (m) Tonnes/metre

2009 stock 197.3 133.3 1.48

S stock 242.6 133.68 1.81

Class 345 319 204.7 1.56

So the small diameter, non-aircon Tube stock is only slightly lighter per
metre than the faster, air-conditioned mainline Aventra stock, while the
SSL stock is about 15% heavier than the faster but slightly narrower
mainline trains. These are all high density trains made in the same factory
for the same customer at roughly the same time.

On 11.12.2023 11:58, Recliner wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <nyBdN.454$ogWb.392@fx14.ams1>, at 10:31:47 on Mon, 11 Dec
>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>> On 10.12.2023 23:37, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> As expected, the all-new £419m Thameslink station opened today. Apparently
>>>>> it's the first all-new mainline station in London in a decade, and has four
>>>>> 12-car platforms. Confusingly, it's not really aimed at visitors to Brent
>>>>> Cross shopping centre, which is 20 minutes walk away, but at the major new
>>>>> Brent Cross Town development.
>>>>>
>>>>> Geoff's video: https://youtu.be/cdybq0_R_g4?si=6R9Zv1-Q5kK7x23B
>>>>>
>>>>> It allseems quite impressive.
>>>>
>>>> They must be picking some narrow definition of "all new mainline
>>>> station" to exclude eg Barking Riverside, which opened a year and a half
>>>> ago.
>>>
>>> I suppose that's just treated as a metro station.
>>
>> Cue interminable debate on whether Overground is a metro, or a heavy
>> rail TOC.
>
> Isn't it both? It's certainly heavy rail, but exclusively operates metro
> services.

Whether it is light rail, heavy rail, metro, or something else, entirely
depends on what definition is used for these terms. They don't have a
consistent set of characteristics or a universally recognised
definition. By picking a narrow set of definitions of what "all-new
mainline station in London" means, they can make this claim to be the
first in a decade, by deliberately excluding more recent stations such
as Barking Riverside, Meridian Water and Lea Bridge. It's like every
railway construction project from the Selby Diversion to HS1 manages to
find some way of being the "first [list of qualifiers] railway built
since the CGR London extention".

Robin

On 11/12/2023 11:53, Rolf Mantel wrote:

> My understanding was that the min distinction between 'Underground' and
> 'Metro' is that 'Metro' is heavy Rail while 'Underground' is light rail.

Calling a metro "heavy rail" is a US (North American?) thing.

--
Arthur Figgis

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>> On 11.12.2023 12:53, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>>> Am 11.12.2023 um 11:58 schrieb Recliner:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <nyBdN.454$ogWb.392@fx14.ams1>, at 10:31:47 on Mon, 11 Dec
>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 10.12.2023 23:37, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>> As expected, the all-new £419m Thameslink station opened today.
>>>>>>>> Apparently
>>>>>>>> it's the first all-new mainline station in London in a decade, and
>>>>>>>> has four
>>>>>>>> 12-car platforms. Confusingly, it's not really aimed at visitors
>>>>>>>> to Brent
>>>>>>>> Cross shopping centre, which is 20 minutes walk away, but at the
>>>>>>>> major new
>>>>>>>> Brent Cross Town development.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Geoff's video: https://youtu.be/cdybq0_R_g4?si=6R9Zv1-Q5kK7x23B
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It allseems quite impressive.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They must be picking some narrow definition of "all new mainline
>>>>>>> station" to exclude eg Barking Riverside, which opened a year and a
>>>>>>> half
>>>>>>> ago.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I suppose that's just treated as a metro station.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cue interminable debate on whether Overground is a metro, or a heavy
>>>>> rail TOC.
>>>>
>>>> Isn't it both?  It's certainly heavy rail, but exclusively operates metro
>>>> services.
>>>
>>> My understanding was that the min distinction between 'Underground' and
>>> 'Metro' is that 'Metro' is heavy Rail while 'Underground' is light rail.
>>
>> The problem is there isn't a consistent distinction between heavy and
>> light rail. The term has been used for a variety of purposes over the
>> years, often inconsistently, for an inconsistent collection of railway
>> schemes, both proposed and realised. In the London context, the DLR was
>> proposed as "light rail" specifically in contrast with the earlier Fleet
>> line proposal to extend what became the Jubilee line east to serve the
>> Docklands area, with the implication that the Tube is not "light rail".
>>
>
> Some more research let me compile this little table:
>
> Weight (tonnes) Length (m) Tonnes/metre
>
> 2009 stock 197.3 133.3 1.48
>
> S stock 242.6 133.68 1.81
>
> Class 345 319 204.7 1.56
>
> So the small diameter, non-aircon Tube stock is only slightly lighter per
> metre than the faster, air-conditioned mainline Aventra stock, while the
> SSL stock is about 15% heavier than the faster but slightly narrower
> mainline trains. These are all high density trains made in the same factory
> for the same customer at roughly the same time.

You wouldn’t expect mass per metre to change much with the cross section of
the train - it’s only the material in the upper perimeter of the vehicles
that changes a lot, the rest - the floor and underfloor equipmen, seating,
half the walls and most the roof are all going to be about the same mass
per metre. What will have more of an effect is the length of the
carriages; with shorter carriages there will be more bogie, end wall and
draw and buffing gear per metre on average.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
> On 11.12.2023 11:58, Recliner wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <nyBdN.454$ogWb.392@fx14.ams1>, at 10:31:47 on Mon, 11 Dec
>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 10.12.2023 23:37, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>> As expected, the all-new £419m Thameslink station opened today. Apparently
>>>>>> it's the first all-new mainline station in London in a decade, and has four
>>>>>> 12-car platforms. Confusingly, it's not really aimed at visitors to Brent
>>>>>> Cross shopping centre, which is 20 minutes walk away, but at the major new
>>>>>> Brent Cross Town development.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Geoff's video: https://youtu.be/cdybq0_R_g4?si=6R9Zv1-Q5kK7x23B
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It allseems quite impressive.
>>>>>
>>>>> They must be picking some narrow definition of "all new mainline
>>>>> station" to exclude eg Barking Riverside, which opened a year and a half
>>>>> ago.
>>>>
>>>> I suppose that's just treated as a metro station.
>>>
>>> Cue interminable debate on whether Overground is a metro, or a heavy
>>> rail TOC.
>>
>> Isn't it both? It's certainly heavy rail, but exclusively operates metro
>> services.
>
> Whether it is light rail, heavy rail, metro, or something else, entirely
> depends on what definition is used for these terms. They don't have a
> consistent set of characteristics or a universally recognised
> definition. By picking a narrow set of definitions of what "all-new
> mainline station in London" means, they can make this claim to be the
> first in a decade, by deliberately excluding more recent stations such
> as Barking Riverside, Meridian Water and Lea Bridge. It's like every
> railway construction project from the Selby Diversion to HS1 manages to
> find some way of being the "first [list of qualifiers] railway built
> since the CGR London extention".
>

Yes, very true.

Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>> On 11.12.2023 12:53, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>>>> Am 11.12.2023 um 11:58 schrieb Recliner:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <nyBdN.454$ogWb.392@fx14.ams1>, at 10:31:47 on Mon, 11 Dec
>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 10.12.2023 23:37, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>> As expected, the all-new £419m Thameslink station opened today.
>>>>>>>>> Apparently
>>>>>>>>> it's the first all-new mainline station in London in a decade, and
>>>>>>>>> has four
>>>>>>>>> 12-car platforms. Confusingly, it's not really aimed at visitors
>>>>>>>>> to Brent
>>>>>>>>> Cross shopping centre, which is 20 minutes walk away, but at the
>>>>>>>>> major new
>>>>>>>>> Brent Cross Town development.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Geoff's video: https://youtu.be/cdybq0_R_g4?si=6R9Zv1-Q5kK7x23B
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It allseems quite impressive.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> They must be picking some narrow definition of "all new mainline
>>>>>>>> station" to exclude eg Barking Riverside, which opened a year and a
>>>>>>>> half
>>>>>>>> ago.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I suppose that's just treated as a metro station.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cue interminable debate on whether Overground is a metro, or a heavy
>>>>>> rail TOC.
>>>>>
>>>>> Isn't it both?  It's certainly heavy rail, but exclusively operates metro
>>>>> services.
>>>>
>>>> My understanding was that the min distinction between 'Underground' and
>>>> 'Metro' is that 'Metro' is heavy Rail while 'Underground' is light rail.
>>>
>>> The problem is there isn't a consistent distinction between heavy and
>>> light rail. The term has been used for a variety of purposes over the
>>> years, often inconsistently, for an inconsistent collection of railway
>>> schemes, both proposed and realised. In the London context, the DLR was
>>> proposed as "light rail" specifically in contrast with the earlier Fleet
>>> line proposal to extend what became the Jubilee line east to serve the
>>> Docklands area, with the implication that the Tube is not "light rail".
>>>
>>
>> Some more research let me compile this little table:
>>
>> Weight (tonnes) Length (m) Tonnes/metre
>>
>> 2009 stock 197.3 133.3 1.48
>>
>> S stock 242.6 133.68 1.81
>>
>> Class 345 319 204.7 1.56
>>
>> So the small diameter, non-aircon Tube stock is only slightly lighter per
>> metre than the faster, air-conditioned mainline Aventra stock, while the
>> SSL stock is about 15% heavier than the faster but slightly narrower
>> mainline trains. These are all high density trains made in the same factory
>> for the same customer at roughly the same time.
>
> You wouldn’t expect mass per metre to change much with the cross section of
> the train - it’s only the material in the upper perimeter of the vehicles
> that changes a lot, the rest - the floor and underfloor equipmen, seating,
> half the walls and most the roof are all going to be about the same mass
> per metre. What will have more of an effect is the length of the
> carriages; with shorter carriages there will be more bogie, end wall and
> draw and buffing gear per metre on average.

I was surprised that 2009 and S stock cars are almost the same length. I
thought the latter would be longer.

It's no accident that the Aventra is light as it's a newer, weight-reduced
design that's much lighter than the previous Electrostars

On Mon, 11 Dec 2023 18:15:17 +0100
Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>On 11.12.2023 12:53, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>> My understanding was that the min distinction between 'Underground' and
>> 'Metro' is that 'Metro' is heavy Rail while 'Underground' is light rail.
>
>The problem is there isn't a consistent distinction between heavy and
>light rail. The term has been used for a variety of purposes over the
>years, often inconsistently, for an inconsistent collection of railway
>schemes, both proposed and realised. In the London context, the DLR was
>proposed as "light rail" specifically in contrast with the earlier Fleet
>line proposal to extend what became the Jubilee line east to serve the
>Docklands area, with the implication that the Tube is not "light rail".

My interpretation of light rail is somewhat flimsily built vehicles with a
shorter lifespan than normal trains that can negotiate tight curves and
carry more passengers than a bus but less than a heavy rail train.

On 12.12.2023 10:25, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Mon, 11 Dec 2023 18:15:17 +0100
> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>> On 11.12.2023 12:53, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>>> My understanding was that the min distinction between 'Underground' and
>>> 'Metro' is that 'Metro' is heavy Rail while 'Underground' is light rail.
>>
>> The problem is there isn't a consistent distinction between heavy and
>> light rail. The term has been used for a variety of purposes over the
>> years, often inconsistently, for an inconsistent collection of railway
>> schemes, both proposed and realised. In the London context, the DLR was
>> proposed as "light rail" specifically in contrast with the earlier Fleet
>> line proposal to extend what became the Jubilee line east to serve the
>> Docklands area, with the implication that the Tube is not "light rail".
>
> My interpretation of light rail is somewhat flimsily built vehicles with a
> shorter lifespan than normal trains that can negotiate tight curves and
> carry more passengers than a bus but less than a heavy rail train.

You are of course free to have your own personal idea of where the
distinction ought to lie between the two, but that doesn't account for
how other people chose to use the respective terms. There are examples
of systems that describe themselves as light rail that very much do not
conform to this distinction, indeed there are systems in the US and
Canada that describe themselves as "light rail" that use standard UIC
rollling stock such as Stadler FLIRT, GTW and Coradia LINT units.

Robin

According to Bob <bob@domain.com>:
>You are of course free to have your own personal idea of where the
>distinction ought to lie between the two, but that doesn't account for
>how other people chose to use the respective terms. There are examples
>of systems that describe themselves as light rail that very much do not
>conform to this distinction, indeed there are systems in the US and
>Canada that describe themselves as "light rail" that use standard UIC
>rolling stock such as Stadler FLIRT, GTW and Coradia LINT units.

In the U.S. it's more a political than a technical term. Heavy rail
means it can share tracks with freight trains and has to be sturdy
enough to survive crashing into one. Light rail has its own separate
tracks or in one case in New Jersey, a special agreement with light
rail during the day and freight at night.

Now you'll ask what the difference between light rail and
subway/metro/underground, and I will wave my hands like crazy and
say you know it when you see it. If it has street running it's
light rail, if not it's probably a subway.

--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

On Tue, 12 Dec 2023 12:45:41 +0100
Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>On 12.12.2023 10:25, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> My interpretation of light rail is somewhat flimsily built vehicles with a
>> shorter lifespan than normal trains that can negotiate tight curves and
>> carry more passengers than a bus but less than a heavy rail train.
>
>You are of course free to have your own personal idea of where the
>distinction ought to lie between the two, but that doesn't account for
>how other people chose to use the respective terms. There are examples
>of systems that describe themselves as light rail that very much do not
>conform to this distinction, indeed there are systems in the US and
>Canada that describe themselves as "light rail" that use standard UIC
>rollling stock such as Stadler FLIRT, GTW and Coradia LINT units.

UIC sized stock probably are considered small light rail vehicles in the US!

On 12.12.2023 16:45, John Levine wrote:
> According to Bob <bob@domain.com>:
>> You are of course free to have your own personal idea of where the
>> distinction ought to lie between the two, but that doesn't account for
>> how other people chose to use the respective terms. There are examples
>> of systems that describe themselves as light rail that very much do not
>> conform to this distinction, indeed there are systems in the US and
>> Canada that describe themselves as "light rail" that use standard UIC
>> rolling stock such as Stadler FLIRT, GTW and Coradia LINT units.
>
> In the U.S. it's more a political than a technical term. Heavy rail
> means it can share tracks with freight trains and has to be sturdy
> enough to survive crashing into one.

But that is a technical distinction. Heavy rail that iner-operates with
freight in the US has to meet FRA technical standards, while passenger
railways that do not, have different, less stringent standards they are
held to. The FRA has recently modified its passenger equipment standards
to make them more compatible with international standards, in particular
moving away from crashworthiness being measured in pure buckling
strength limits to being measured in terms of energy dissipation.

This causes a problem as a definition for "light rail" outside of that
regulatory environment, as, by that definition, basically the entire
railway network of Europe, would be "light rail", which is somewhat
absurd. Therefore it leads to the situation where something that is
defined as light rail in one context (a UIC spec passenger train) is
defined as heavy rail in a different context, for exactly the same
railway vehicles, operating in exactly the same way.

> Light rail has its own separate
> tracks or in one case in New Jersey, a special agreement with light
> rail during the day and freight at night.
>
> Now you'll ask what the difference between light rail and
> subway/metro/underground, and I will wave my hands like crazy and
> say you know it when you see it. If it has street running it's
> light rail, if not it's probably a subway.

Until you come to things like Thameslink, London Overground or the
Elizabeth line, that straddle the boundary between metro and
conventional heavy rail. Something like the Berlin S-Bahn is far more
akin to the LU subsurface lines in most of its technical and operational
approaches, than it is to "mainline" DB services, but most conventional
thinking is that S-Bahn is not "metro".

Robin